21 Nov 2007 at 13:45 - 4
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HotO is/was part of some on-demand combos that could insta-kill in 5 seconds or less ...
Yeah, "was". SP spike ended (or so did AN believe) with the nerf of BLS. What was the point of nerfing HoTO then?
Of course not mentioning the fact that SP sins still exist, they're just using different skills now.
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Whether the nerf to HotO was right or not is debatable ... but as long as assassins are designed to have combos that can kill in under 5 seconds.. those combos should never be viable with 2 knockdowns .. and 1 is pushing it....
Well, the shocker, they still have. But that's another tale, in different thread and it's named "Make Shadow Prison unusable with IAS stances".
however an SP assassin would have to be braindead to miss with HotO.... HotO even gets 2 chances to bypass block!
Despite the fact that most of the SP sins ARE braindead... And that part with 2 chances? Yeah, kinda advantage of dual attacks.
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Difference being HotO being a problem for Assassins because they basically kicked the balls of somebody on their ass, and Warriors not having an omgwtfinstagib combo?
And what did HoTO nerf change with omwtfinsagib combo? Besides of course, made HoTO less useful? I'm all for removing SP sins "4-5secs, you die, hahah", I'm against stupid, pointless nerfs that basically do nothing with the problem- i.e. SP sins, right?
21 Nov 2007 at 14:15 - 5
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
And what did HoTO nerf change with omwtfinsagib combo? Besides of course, made HoTO less useful? I'm all for removing SP sins "4-5secs, you die, hahah", I'm against stupid, pointless nerfs that basically do nothing with the problem- i.e. SP sins, right?
My guess would be that it was to reduce the amount of KD's in an already quick killing combo, since you already have to play pretty much perfectly to get away from a reasonable sin spike alive.
In sorts it's a blanket nerf.
21 Nov 2007 at 14:23 - 6
Point for hoto: hitting twice means you have more chance of hitting through guardian and still kd'ing.
*edit*
I'd be happy to have a skill like hoto that always kd's, but does not deal damage...
21 Nov 2007 at 14:29 - 7
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Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Your comparison is not valid because the two professions operate completely differently.
That is all that had to be said.
/requesting to lock this thread.
If you'd compare skills, stick to the same profession. Of course you can compare Deep Freeze to Shared Burden and conclude that the latter is worthless, since they're both snares, but this time, the OP is just comparing a melee attack, to a Dual Attack, which are completely different mechanics.
I can also start comparing retardedly, such as Healing Breeze vs Aura of Restoration: Healing Breeze is better because it heals for more when spammed! :-/
21 Nov 2007 at 14:29 - 8
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Yeah, "was". SP spike ended (or so did AN believe) with the nerf of BLS. What was the point of nerfing HoTO then?
so true. with BLS gone, the nerfs to HotO and Trampling Ox were unnecessary. just adding insult to injury. like killing a puppy AND THEN kicking it AND then pissing on it. which is overkill cuz it's already dead!
21 Nov 2007 at 14:33 - 9
well but that is u yanman...
I prefer to have a skill that may not KD and make me fail some combos, but that has a chance to actualy "instakill" my foe..
21 Nov 2007 at 14:34 - 10
They should not have nerfed down the damage as much as they did. They should have nerfed it down to trampling ox dmg imo...
21 Nov 2007 at 14:39 - 11
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Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
so true. with BLS gone, the nerfs to HotO and Trampling Ox were unnecessary. just adding insult to injury. like killing a puppy AND THEN kicking it AND then pissing on it. which is overkill cuz it's already dead!
As suggested earlier, maybe it was to stop 'sins to be able to kick people on their ass, as them kicking people not on their ass is powerful enough.
21 Nov 2007 at 14:46 - 12
/disagree with poster
You are comparing two skills on different levels... each has a different purpose
tbh a KD skill without any damage would still make it on my skill bar...
i use hoto not to just kd kiters...but also stop that ele from casting his powerfull spells...now i cant do that with BS can i
21 Nov 2007 at 15:15 - 13
Hitting a moving foe.
Hitting a foe that is alone.
One requires skill....one requires rolling your face on the keyboard.
21 Nov 2007 at 15:40 - 14
Everyone knows all they gotta do is nerf IAS but no... they are just too proud and won't hear the community before they completly kill the class trying to nerf a single build.
21 Nov 2007 at 15:51 - 15
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Originally Posted by Cloud5646
Everyone knows all they gotta do is nerf IAS but no... they are just too proud and won't hear the community before they completly kill the class trying to nerf a single build.
Watch them rebuff sins in like 3 months. roflmao
21 Nov 2007 at 16:27 - 16
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Originally Posted by Saphatorael
/requesting to lock this thread.
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Hahah, yeah, you're funny.
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/disagree with poster
You are comparing two skills on different levels... each has a different purpose
That's very god damn interesting, because I always thought warrs take BS for KD, not damage, yet no one complains that it has +dmg, eh?
21 Nov 2007 at 16:35 - 17
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
That's very god damn interesting, because I always thought warrs take BS for KD, not damage, yet no one complains that it has +dmg, eh?
It is mainly for kd'ing kiters or the flag runner + it's a warrior they have like 30 or so skills that do +30 dmg.
21 Nov 2007 at 17:09 - 18
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Hahah, yeah, you're funny.
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no u
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That's very god damn interesting, because I always thought warrs take BS for KD, not damage, yet no one complains that it has +dmg, eh?
It's both a KD yes... but I've yet to see an Assassin use Bull's Strike midspike...
21 Nov 2007 at 17:24 - 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saphatorael
It's both a KD yes... but I've yet to see an Assassin use Bull's Strike midspike...
Ah, you don't get it, good...
Ok, how about this.
Explain to me, how is it that warriors, balanced in defense and offense, can have skills like BS with nice +dmg, not so conditional KD as HoTO, but when Assassin, class which devotes offense over defense, can not?
21 Nov 2007 at 17:27 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Ah, you don't get it, good...
Ok, how about this.
Explain to me, how is it that warriors, balanced in defense and offense, can have skills like BS with nice +dmg, not so conditional KD as HoTO, but when Assassin, class which devotes offense over defense, can not?
Because Warriors don't inherently have the ability to shadow step. Of course this is bypassed by the use of secondaries, but Izzy gave AoD and SP a 10e cost for a reason.
Also, Assassins can use HotO midspike to knock down their target.
Have you ever seen a Warrior do Shock -> Eviscerate -> Bull's Strike -> Executioner's Strike, to use a popular Warrior build... I think not.
21 Nov 2007 at 17:45 - 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saphatorael
Because Warriors don't inherently have the ability to shadow step. Of course this is bypassed by the use of secondaries, but Izzy gave AoD and SP a 10e cost for a reason.
Also, Assassins can use HotO midspike to knock down their target.
Have you ever seen a Warrior do Shock -> Eviscerate -> Bull's Strike -> Executioner's Strike, to use a popular Warrior build... I think not.
AoD builds have been dead quite for some time now and SP has done more bad to sins than any other thing- basically all sin nerfs (besides deadly paradox) are around SP... Of course they're doing it wrong, forcing SP sins just to take other skills and not killing SP spie but as I said that talk is already going on in different thread.
HoTO was nerfed not because it was too powerful, because it had too big +dmg- it was nerfed because it had the bad luck of being in the SP skillbar. But I don't think that leaving problematic stuff (SP + IAS...) and nerfing skills that are used with problematic stuff is going to fix anything.
HoTO was around since Factions, how the hell could it have become so strong that suddenly it required nerfing?
Answerd- it didn't require nerfing. SP spike requires total destruction-while-leaving-good-skills-alone.
21 Nov 2007 at 17:54 - 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
That's very god damn interesting, because I always thought warrs take BS for KD, not damage, yet no one complains that it has +dmg, eh?
I'd love my Bull's to have two chances to hit through block and do +60 damage.
21 Nov 2007 at 17:56 - 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Ah, you don't get it, good...
Ok, how about this.
Explain to me, how is it that warriors, balanced in defense and offense, can have skills like BS with nice +dmg, not so conditional KD as HoTO, but when Assassin, class which devotes offense over defense, can not?
Because after a KD there is a tendency to use so "falling" skills which will lead to another dual. And we all know what a sucessful O-D-O-D can do .
True, HoTo ,if we look at it as ONE skill, was not problematic.
I agree with you that the HoTo nerf was very half-arsed. The thing Anet needs to do is to rework the class completely.And please don't compare BS with HoTo...
21 Nov 2007 at 18:13 - 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
HoTO was nerfed not because it was too powerful, because it had too big +dmg- it was nerfed because it had the bad luck of being in the SP skillbar.
Third time saying this...
It's probably because nerfing HoTO also helps reducing the effectiveness sin spikes that use KDs, which are problematic in terms of balance.
21 Nov 2007 at 18:29 - 25
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Originally Posted by LightningHell
Third time saying this...
It's probably because nerfing HoTO also helps reducing the effectiveness sin spikes that use KDs, which are problematic in terms of balance.
...
They simply started using cripple + Trampling. So to get things more 'balanced' we need to hit Trampling again?
21 Nov 2007 at 18:36 - 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
...
They simply started using cripple + Trampling. So to get things more 'balanced' we need to hit Trampling again?
I don't know, Black Lotus Strike has a -4 energy cost.
Now you have to pay for getting a KD, mm? Not that it isn't worth it.
21 Nov 2007 at 21:31 - 27
You also forgot to add.
That axes have a higher Minimum and maximum damage, so unless the assassin critical hits Bull strike does more damage regardless
This is also true to swords/hammers.
And if the warrior crits he still does more damage than horns.
The assassin is a very skill based class (Skill as in USINg skills) as they're Weapon does not have high damage. This leads to them having generally weaker damage output and less efficient if there skills don't put them up to par.
Also the comparison between bulls strike and SP sin (pre-nerf)
[card]Shadow Prison[/card][card]Tiger Stance[/card][card]Black Lotus Strike[/card][card]Horns of the ox[/card][card]Black Spider Strike[/card][card]Blades of steel[/card][card]Impale[/card] [card]Resurrection Signet[/card]
Thats an entire 7 skill slots spent on just damage, with no form of utility other than the Knock down. The knock down is horns of the ox, used in many other builds (but never required to be decent). The only use this assassin has other than using an entire 7 skills to Kill 1 target is to resurrect somebody ONCE.
[card]Eviscerate[/card][card]Executioner's Strike[/card][card]Bull's Strike[/card][card]Shock[/card][card]Frenzy[/card][card]Rush[/card] [card]Resurrection Signet[/card] AND an optional.
The warrior does not need to dedicate his entire bar to killing 1 target.
The warrior build above has more utility, a stronger knock down, Decent anti-kitting with a speed buff and dual knock downs, and he has an optional slow to bring something in.
Horns of the ox must follow an off-hand, meaning you cannot just use it whenever you need it.Making it inferior utility and inferior damage in general to Bulls Strike.
Also the above SP sin can no longer use BLS and generally requires An additional slow dedicated to attacking OR to bring an enchantment with GPS now.
If the problem is SP sins, It's a bit over-rated anyways. A bar dedicated to the use of 1 attack and if you fail it, you have to flee isn't great.
The warrior if he fails can keep on whacking, applying that pressure with his strong weapons.
Horns of the ox was used in many builds, this nerf kills quite a few of them from using horns, and instead Iron Palm or Mark of instability must take its place in many builds or the builds just use no knock down at all.
Bulls Strike punishes people for kiting and position does not matter, generally any caster/foe kites when in danger, and bulls strike prevents them from that.
Bulls strike is generally better, and stronger.
Even if the assassin got bulls strike +27 damage it would still be stronger on the warrior.
Removing Horns of the ox, just means you remove 1 extra skill from play, leading to less variety., and Build wars.
21 Nov 2007 at 21:33 - 28
i believe the OP is under the assumption that horns' condition is harder to fulfill than bull's strike. let me just state that he is wrong.
please carry on.
21 Nov 2007 at 21:34 - 29
SP Sins: Countered by blocking Stances, Veil and Condition Removal. EZ as pie iz how it wurx. I understand that some skillz are imbalanced, but it's all a part of the function of each profession. Warriors are meant to take lotz of damage but not dish out too much either. Assassins are meant to dish out dmg and yet take alot of dmg, too. So in essence, nerfing HotO, taking away dmg (all of a sudden after so much time has passed... I should mention) robs assassins of their primary purpose... ASSASSINATE. So now you have assassins with weak attack dmg and low armor... What's the outcome? FAILURE. Assassins suck now. GG Skill Updater Guy.
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Removing Horns of the ox, just means you remove 1 extra skill from play, leading to less variety., and Build Wars.
Lol they should re-title the game to that! It'd make more sense as it relates heavily to current events.
/signed!
21 Nov 2007 at 21:42 - 30
The problem is that HoTX was not the problem in any of those builds, Tiger stance was. This fact has been obvious since the release of nightfall.
21 Nov 2007 at 21:43 - 31
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are meant to take lotz of damage but not dish out too much either
you are stupid. go away.
21 Nov 2007 at 21:44 - 32
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Originally Posted by moriz
you are stupid. go away.
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You wasted all that space in the forum to say that?
/failure
I made a point. It's also opinion-based. If ya don't like it... Here, have a cup! Sometimes ya need one...
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
The problem is that HoTX was not the problem in any of those builds, Tiger stance was. This fact has been obvious since the release of nightfall.
Yea, even with tiger stance in there, if blocked, IAS goes away for the remainder of the recharge time. Personally, I see nothing wrong with Tiger's Stance.
21 Nov 2007 at 21:45 - 33
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Originally Posted by Ulterion
You wasted all that space in the forum to say that?
/failure
and you are still stupid.
21 Nov 2007 at 21:57 - 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulterion
Yea, even with tiger stance in there, if blocked, IAS goes away for the remainder of the recharge time. Personally, I see nothing wrong with Tiger's Stance.
its not that tiger stance on a warrior is bad
but that Tiger stance on an ASSASSIN is bad.
Assassin's are 1 of the fastest attackers in the game, and can reach the highest attack speed without an IAS I believe with their auto attacks (locust's Fury, although... im just saying it improves their speed)
However an IAS that affects there skills is very different from one that affects their auto attacks.
Go to isle of the dead
Take Locust Fury, Frenzy,Critical eye
This is just for testing purposes.
Notice that the assassin gets a very high attack rate
Now take Locust fury,frenzy,critical eye into pvp against real players. People aren't necessarily going to complain about that, its not a huge threat.
Now Take Frenzy (just for testing purposes)
And some attack skills and use them on the 60 AL target.
Your damage far surpasses that of the highest attack speed possible (Locust+IAS), which isn't a big deal as skills are supposed to be strong.
Now take a common warrior build with frenzy to the 60 AL target and skills and see how much damage it does. The damage is strong, but its not as fast as the assassin.
Now eg. The common SP sin build
has O-D-o-D Impale = 5 attack skills.
Put 5 attack skills (not including shock) on a warrior, Then let that warrior not only Teleport to you, but give you a 66% snare, a trait that was thought to be only in the Water magic line.
Then let them you down and finish the entire spike BEFORE they get up to do anything.
Now back to assassins, take the 5 attack skill chain and use it without an IAS, Then with an IAS
See the difference and tell me if tiger stance does not pose a problem on an assassin in pvp.
21 Nov 2007 at 21:58 - 35
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Originally Posted by moriz
and you are still stupid.
Moderators take action against flamers like this guy. They do threads no good. I already clarified that it was merely my own opinion and to have a cup. I can lead a horse to cup, but he just won't drink & stfu. And I refuse to argue with idiots... they take you down to their level and beat you with experience.
21 Nov 2007 at 22:00 - 36
Quote:
are meant to take lotz of damage but not dish out too much either
do take your own advice... but i guess arguing with yourself is not fun now is it?
21 Nov 2007 at 22:02 - 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
do take your own advice... but i guess arguing with yourself is not fun now is it?
Moriz = Flamer with no sense. Arguements from people like Moriz have no sense or end. Here, have another cup Moriz.
21 Nov 2007 at 22:06 - 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulterion
Moriz = Flamer with no sense. Arguements from people like Moriz have no sense or end. Here, have another cup Moriz.
Moriz is not trying to flame you on purpose I think Ulterion.
Moriz has an opinion and you have an opinion and they both conflict with each other.
Moriz feels strong about her/his (sorry I don't know your gender) opinion and thus feels that what your saying is so wrong that it makes you an idiot.
You believe that you are correct, and thus Moriz is just a flamer to you.
Also the thing with the cup >.> WTF!?
21 Nov 2007 at 22:07 - 39
Moriz, stop wasting your time. I have.
21 Nov 2007 at 22:10 - 40
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Originally Posted by ensoriki
Everything you mentioned above...
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Noted... but this brings me back to my first post: Purpose of Professions. Assassins assassinate. Warriors kill and endure damage. Give Assassins the armor of a warrior and you have an extremely over-powering foe. Likewise, strap 70AL to warriors and it defeats the purpose of warriors as a whole. I disagree with nerfing Tiger Stance. Assassins are already squishy enough, let them have purpose... Let them be potent killers, not weak squishies that can't even kill foes because daggers are 7-17 and skills are being diminished by nerfs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Moriz is not trying to flame you on purpose I think Ulterion.
Moriz has an opinion and you have an opinion and they both conflict with each other.
Moriz feels strong about her/his (sorry I don't know your gender) opinion and thus feels that what your saying is so wrong that it makes you an idiot.
You believe that you are correct, and thus Moriz is just a flamer to you.
Also the thing with the cup >.> WTF!?
Flaming means insulting others regardless of the conflicting opinions. He called me stupid. How is that not flaming? When did I call anybody on this thread stupid, or anything to that effect? Would you like it if somebody downright called you a dumbass because he thinks you're wrong? If so, then you support flamers and flaming. I do not, and the cup thing: I'm basically telling him to StfU. If you are incapable of looking at my avatar, seeing the soldier with a cup, and seeing StfU at the bottom, and putting two & two together...? Then you have some serious psychological issues.
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
Moriz, stop wasting your time. I have.
See? That's a respectable poster who understands that everything posted on threads are mere opinions. You have my respect Bobby2. My hat goes off to ya.
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