this will be a more complete version of my suggestion here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=31
since the narutards have invaded the other thread and killed any meaningful discussion possible, i'm gonna move my thoughts and suggestions here.
the problem with assassins have been pointed out many times: if they can't instagib, they are useless. unfortunately, the only thing they CAN do with their current implementation is instagib. since everyone agrees (or at least those with a brain agrees) that such an ability is broken, the way to fix it is to nerf assassins until they can't do it... unfortunately such a fix will destroy them completely since they can't do anything else (other than teleport, but everyone can take /A and teleport just as well).
so i've been taking a look at the lead>offhand>dual attack system, i've found a way to improve upon it. instead of a strict system where you have to press the buttons in order for it to do anything, i believe the off-hand attacks can take on additional function outside of the chain. here are a few examples of what i mean:
falling spider
5e 8r
Must strike a knocked-down foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, Falling Spider strikes for +15...31 damage and target foe is Poisoned for 5...17 seconds. If it strikes a moving foe, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack, it does no damage, and target foe is knocked down for 3 seconds.
falling lotus strike
5e 12r
Must strike a knocked-down foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, you strike for +15...31 damage and gain 1...10 Energy. If it strike a moving foe, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack, it strikes for +1...10 damage, and you gain 0...8 Energy.
black spider strike
10e 12r
Must strike a Hexed foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17 damage and target foe is Poisoned for 5...17 seconds. If it does not strike a Hexed foe, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a non-moving foe, it does no damage, and target foe is Poisoned for 0...8 seconds.
jungle strike
10e .5c 10r
Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...22 damage. If it hits a foe that was Crippled, it does +1...25 damage. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a moving foe with no allies nearby, it does no damage, and target foe is crippled for 5...12 seconds
temple strike
15e 20r
Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If this attack hits, target foe is Dazed and Blinded for 1...8 seconds, and if target foe is casting a Spell, that foe is interrupted. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a foe with no allies adjacent, it does no damage, and target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds
i've bolded the changes i have in mind. i know the descriptions now look incredibly long-winded, but what i'm trying to propose should be clear: additional functionality for off-hands, outside of combos.
the benefits of such a change should be obvious. sins will gain additional utility at no cost to their skill slots. this change will put their utility up to the same level of warriors. at the same time, the "disable all other" condition prevents sins from loading up with a huge attack chain and mash them in order.
if this is implemented, we can safely take away the sin's instagib ability without destroying them completely.
thoughts/suggestions/critiques are welcome. narutards need not to post.
EDIT: removed the "disable all other" condition on leads, offhands, and duals.
how to fix assassins
moriz
moriz
in case you are wondering: i am well aware that something like this is extremely difficult to implement and will likely never happen. however, this is the only way to fix assassins without erasing them completely and starting from scratch.
navymrgoodbar
Too many nerfs = too many pissed off players. Take off the last bold statements in each to make the skills not completely useless. They might as well erase those skills if you want them THAT nerfed.
The first 2 bold statements I'm okay with.
/notsigned
The first 2 bold statements I'm okay with.
/notsigned
moriz
you know, in the current system, if you do not use those skills in a chain, they do absolutely nothing. i'm suggesting that they SHOULD do something. this is a BUFF.
jaeharys targaryen
i like how you added offhand disabling to 3 offhands that are almost always used as the LAST offhand in the combo
offhand-trampling-FALLING X-duel
offhand-hoto-BLACK SPIDER-duel
gfg, tbh
theres absolutely no point to disabling those skills after the combo, all instagibs are confined by shadow pris'z recharge
/notsigned
offhand-trampling-FALLING X-duel
offhand-hoto-BLACK SPIDER-duel
gfg, tbh
theres absolutely no point to disabling those skills after the combo, all instagibs are confined by shadow pris'z recharge
/notsigned
ensoriki
I don't think your idea's are totally farfetch'd but some of them are a bit odd.
Temple strike disabling all off-hands for 20 second's is a bit step.
Also there is little reason to disable lead attacks, duals perhaps, but disabling lead attacks as they are now seems a tad foolish.
Your idea of having them work without having to follow the chain is something I've been pondering all day in school today. You probably don't want my feedback or anything so I will remain quiet for a bit, unless I strongly disagree with something.
Just go over your ideas a bit, I think you can improve on them a bit.
Another problem is that your suggestions destroys repeating Strike, which is something you should work around.
Temple strike disabling all off-hands for 20 second's is a bit step.
Also there is little reason to disable lead attacks, duals perhaps, but disabling lead attacks as they are now seems a tad foolish.
Your idea of having them work without having to follow the chain is something I've been pondering all day in school today. You probably don't want my feedback or anything so I will remain quiet for a bit, unless I strongly disagree with something.
Just go over your ideas a bit, I think you can improve on them a bit.
Another problem is that your suggestions destroys repeating Strike, which is something you should work around.
Coloneh
i believe the solution is shorter. it will, however make assassins very similar to warriors. give them a few high pressure options (we already have MS+DB), and spike chains. design the skills to function for shorter, faster recharging chains that do less damage. this makes the assassin more of a team player, if your warrior can pressure an enemy down to a little over half health your sin can step in and execute a quick spike. this spike would be recharged soon enough 7-12 seconds to be used quickly on another foe, but not so quick as to be broken.
Your offhand attack stsyem seems a bit complicated. I dont think the average GW player would be able to understand how to make an effective sin or even to defend against one.
Your offhand attack stsyem seems a bit complicated. I dont think the average GW player would be able to understand how to make an effective sin or even to defend against one.
moriz
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen
i like how you added offhand disabling to 3 offhands that are almost always used as the LAST offhand in the combo
offhand-trampling-FALLING X-duel
offhand-hoto-BLACK SPIDER-duel
gfg, tbh
theres absolutely no point to disabling those skills after the combo, all instagibs are confined by shadow pris'z recharge
/notsigned the point is to eliminate the offhand>dual>offhand>dual chains, so we can balance lead>offhand>dual without worrying about someone making a build that ignores the checks and balances. the ones i posted are examples only. if implemented, the same will be placed on all offhands.
and remember, it's "all OTHER offhands", so repeating strike will just keep recharging itself and continuously disables all other offhands.
offhand-trampling-FALLING X-duel
offhand-hoto-BLACK SPIDER-duel
gfg, tbh
theres absolutely no point to disabling those skills after the combo, all instagibs are confined by shadow pris'z recharge
/notsigned the point is to eliminate the offhand>dual>offhand>dual chains, so we can balance lead>offhand>dual without worrying about someone making a build that ignores the checks and balances. the ones i posted are examples only. if implemented, the same will be placed on all offhands.
and remember, it's "all OTHER offhands", so repeating strike will just keep recharging itself and continuously disables all other offhands.
Bobby2
Correct me if I'm wrong:
- Your suggestions turn Sins into Warriors with a lower Armour Value, but more general utility (mostly shutdown).
- If so, IYO which class should have highest DPS? Without the bonus damage of a chain, Sins' DPS drops to squat - and disabling for instance: all offhands on each offhands' secondary ability means it's impossible to chain after using even one of these. This seems quite harsh, so I'd rather see them implemented mostly on Dual Strikes (that leaves the option of, say, cycling Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike for decent DPS).
Other than that, I can see the merit of such alterations. I could envision quite some uses as I read through your post, and I think it would promote intelligent skill synergy builds that are fun to abuse in their own right.
[skill]Palm Strike[/skill][skill]Blinding powder[/skill][skill]Unseen fury[/skill] gets old, and it's underpowered. Who runs high Shadow these days!
Having the Assassin remade in a more versatile way in GW2 is one of my greatest hopes.
- Your suggestions turn Sins into Warriors with a lower Armour Value, but more general utility (mostly shutdown).
- If so, IYO which class should have highest DPS? Without the bonus damage of a chain, Sins' DPS drops to squat - and disabling for instance: all offhands on each offhands' secondary ability means it's impossible to chain after using even one of these. This seems quite harsh, so I'd rather see them implemented mostly on Dual Strikes (that leaves the option of, say, cycling Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike for decent DPS).
Other than that, I can see the merit of such alterations. I could envision quite some uses as I read through your post, and I think it would promote intelligent skill synergy builds that are fun to abuse in their own right.
[skill]Palm Strike[/skill][skill]Blinding powder[/skill][skill]Unseen fury[/skill] gets old, and it's underpowered. Who runs high Shadow these days!
Having the Assassin remade in a more versatile way in GW2 is one of my greatest hopes.
moriz
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
For 1 your post makes no mention of Repeating strike.
Your post make it so that off-hands can be used without leads. incorrect. i stated specifically that off-hands function as off-hands only if a condition was met, such as "must follow a lead attack", "must strike a knocked down foe". if that conditions was NOT met, and the secondary condition WAS met, then that off-hand performs its secondary function.
just pay attention to the bolded parts.
as for deadly arts spam: that should be nerfed to oblivion for obvious reasons, and shouldn't really factor into this particular discussion. also, instead of weakening the assassin, my ideas will STRENGTHEN them. instead of being buttonmashing spikers, assassins will be able to provide shutdown/condition utility. in a sense, they no longer NEED the instagib ability and still be viable characters.
Your post make it so that off-hands can be used without leads. incorrect. i stated specifically that off-hands function as off-hands only if a condition was met, such as "must follow a lead attack", "must strike a knocked down foe". if that conditions was NOT met, and the secondary condition WAS met, then that off-hand performs its secondary function.
just pay attention to the bolded parts.
as for deadly arts spam: that should be nerfed to oblivion for obvious reasons, and shouldn't really factor into this particular discussion. also, instead of weakening the assassin, my ideas will STRENGTHEN them. instead of being buttonmashing spikers, assassins will be able to provide shutdown/condition utility. in a sense, they no longer NEED the instagib ability and still be viable characters.
ensoriki
Ah I see what you mean now Moriz. However I do think the disability for Temple strike is a tad too high.
Although your most likely not interested, the idea I've been sitting on today for L-O-D. Is to create a new condition(although I was thinking it should create a blessing effect on them, so they can't remove it) called "Bad Form" Sin's would be able to activate skills out of chain, but doing so puts them in Bad form, which has its own penalty's (that I couldn't decide).
Anyhow, I was not talking about Deadly Paradox spam.
What I was saying is that if you recall before nightfall (before deadly paradox existed), Use of deadly arts was not high, infact most of the skill uses were vary narrow. Expose defenses and Siphon speed basically over shadowed everything, and if I remember Siphon strength was 15 energy sometime before nightfall.
The assassin's DPS most likely should not be as high as a warriors, do to shadow steps giving them a better range then them, and deadly arts giving them more utility.
The problem im trying to bring to light is that Shadow arts and Deadly arts, aren't great utility, and require a buff. This buff should happen after Deadly paradox is suitably nerfed.
Although your most likely not interested, the idea I've been sitting on today for L-O-D. Is to create a new condition(although I was thinking it should create a blessing effect on them, so they can't remove it) called "Bad Form" Sin's would be able to activate skills out of chain, but doing so puts them in Bad form, which has its own penalty's (that I couldn't decide).
Anyhow, I was not talking about Deadly Paradox spam.
What I was saying is that if you recall before nightfall (before deadly paradox existed), Use of deadly arts was not high, infact most of the skill uses were vary narrow. Expose defenses and Siphon speed basically over shadowed everything, and if I remember Siphon strength was 15 energy sometime before nightfall.
The assassin's DPS most likely should not be as high as a warriors, do to shadow steps giving them a better range then them, and deadly arts giving them more utility.
The problem im trying to bring to light is that Shadow arts and Deadly arts, aren't great utility, and require a buff. This buff should happen after Deadly paradox is suitably nerfed.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
This buff should happen at the same time as Deadly paradox is suitably nerfed.
fixed imo
(12chars)
(12chars)
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
fixed imo
(12chars) I'd go for "after", as it's better to observe what happens first and the power levels of each skill before adding a whole new lot of buffed skills.
(12chars) I'd go for "after", as it's better to observe what happens first and the power levels of each skill before adding a whole new lot of buffed skills.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I'd go for "after", as it's better to observe what happens first and the power levels of each skill before adding a whole new lot of buffed skills.
guess your right....SP sin is pretty much an instagib still.
moriz
deadly arts would've been a great support line, had the game been based on a 12 skill system. unfortunately, the game only allows 8 skills at a time, so whatever the deadly arts line provided was overshadowed by the more important attack chain.
that's also the fundamental reason why sins are so poorly balanced: it's as if it was designed for a game that allows 12 skills, instead of 8.
that's also the fundamental reason why sins are so poorly balanced: it's as if it was designed for a game that allows 12 skills, instead of 8.
blakecraw
While I agree off>dual>off>dual is lame (I love your idea to recharge other offhands so that can't be used), I agree with navymrgoodbar that the "if not" clause on your fixes is bad news, since then you're left with a recharging offhand as opposed to an insta-recharged one for going out of sequence, no way to use a dual attack, and a very weak affect applied to your target. I like the idea of giving sins some use outside of combos, but I don't think your changes get the job done.
The only other problem I have is that it would kind of ruin moebius strike, seeing as you have to use an offhand to get to the dual which is of course needed to use moebius.
The only other problem I have is that it would kind of ruin moebius strike, seeing as you have to use an offhand to get to the dual which is of course needed to use moebius.
Poise
I need clarification. Are you proposing that each offhand has 2 possible functions, or 3?
1. As an offhand, meeting first req.
2. As a utility attack, meeting second req.
3. As a regular melee attack, meeting no req.
Example:
Quote:
1. As an offhand, meeting first req.
2. As a utility attack, meeting second req.
3. As a regular melee attack, meeting no req.
Example:
Quote:
5e 8r
All your other off-hand attacks are disabled for 8 seconds. Must strike a knocked-down foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, Falling Spider strikes for +15...31 damage and target foe is Poisoned for 5...17 seconds. If it strikes a moving foe, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack, it does no damage, and target foe is knocked down for 3 seconds. 1. Hits KD'd foe. Deals +31 and poisons.
2. Hits moving foe. Does 0 damage and KD's.
3. Hits stationary, standing foe. Deals +31 and poisons.
Or does the skill miss if used without meeting either requirement?
moriz
1: yes
2: yes
3: no. skill fails and behaves like a normal failed combo attack (that is, instant recharge and no effect).
btw, i'm toying with removing the "disable all other" condition. however, that's gonna promote people running the offhand>dual>offhand>dual attack chains, but now with additional utility ontop of the possible instagib.
2: yes
3: no. skill fails and behaves like a normal failed combo attack (that is, instant recharge and no effect).
btw, i'm toying with removing the "disable all other" condition. however, that's gonna promote people running the offhand>dual>offhand>dual attack chains, but now with additional utility ontop of the possible instagib.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by blakecraw
While I agree off>dual>off>dual is lame (I love your idea to recharge other offhands so that can't be used), I agree with navymrgoodbar that the "if not" clause on your fixes is bad news, since then you're left with a recharging offhand as opposed to an insta-recharged one for going out of sequence, no way to use a dual attack, and a very weak affect applied to your target. I like the idea of giving sins some use outside of combos, but I don't think your changes get the job done.
The changes themselves are probably subject to further discussion and tweaking; it's probably the concept that's introduced that is important in this discussion.
Furthermore, knocking down someone for 3 seconds is something I hardly call "very weak".
Furthermore, knocking down someone for 3 seconds is something I hardly call "very weak".
Bobby2
You can't keep those traits apart when determining power level. It's the overall balance that we should be trying to better.
Poise
Quote:
2: yes
3: no. skill fails and behaves like a normal failed combo attack (that is, instant recharge and no effect). Just making sure =P.
I think these changes would be a good step in the right direction (towards utility, away from instagib), but I don't think it would fix assassins. At least, not by itself. There are other problems that would still keep them from being able to compete as a frontline class. Primarily, imo, the functionality of Critical Strikes and the lack of synergy between attribute lines.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Much easier to kill Paradox, look at what's underpowered, and then do the buffing.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Poise
I think these changes would be a good step in the right direction (towards utility, away from instagib), but I don't think it would fix assassins. At least, not by itself. There are other problems that would still keep them from being able to compete as a frontline class. Primarily, imo, the functionality of Critical Strikes and the lack of synergy between attribute lines.
Well, there always has to be a first step.
ensoriki
ya there is little synergy for the attribute lines >.>
Well for shadow arts we could make dark escape similar to natural stride Dark escapes recharge lowered to 20 duration goes 1.....15 (15 at 16 shadow arts) Give's sin better chances to flag run. Heart of shadow is a pretty nice heal. I think however it should also prevent the damage like RoF >.> as its a singular target heal it only helps the assassin. Or we could leave it as it but let it target ally >.>
moriz
removing the "disable all other" condition allows for some nifty combinations.
for example, in a build that looks like this: shadow prison/AoD, iron palm/shock, falling spider, horns of the ox, falling lotus strike, twisting fangs, restful breeze/shadow refuge, dash a skilled player can use falling spider out of combo, immediately follow up with falling lotus strike, wait for falling spider to recharge, go into horns of the ox for another KD, hit falling spider again, and finish off with twisting fangs. the ability to continuously vary the entries into the combo as well as adapting secondary utility effects can be quite fun, and allows a skilled player to achieve some pretty nifty tricks. the above combo probably won't be overpowered, since it takes a fair degree of skill to pull off. however, there's also the chance of instagib combo surfacing now that it's back to offhand>dual>offhand>dual, but with utility effects added in. thedeadlyassassin
The problem with GW sins is that Altair would murder them all 1 by 1 and never get touched.
Point being, GW sins aren't sins, they are ninjas, and can't assassinate crap. As for your ideas, it'd look more like it'd ruin sins instead of fix them. /notsigned.
moriz
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedeadlyassassin
The problem with GW sins is that Altair would murder them all 1 by 1 and never get touched.
Point being, GW sins aren't sins, they are ninjas, and can't assassinate crap. As for your ideas, it'd look more like it'd ruin sins instead of fix them. /notsigned. if by ruining them, you mean that it will take a fair degree of skill to be effective, then yes, it will ruin them. at least for those with little skill.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
however, there's also the chance of instagib combo surfacing now that it's back to offhand>dual>offhand>dual, but with utility effects added in.
Wasn't it your intention to nerf them on damage output? If so, no way such a short chain would be viable. You'd at least have to cycle through part of it again... right?
ensoriki
I rather we just put a clause for running things out of combo like "bad Form"
>.> Making this, use this and your skills disabled actually Limits variety, as you make it so that they have to use that 1 skill. Thus the assassin can only really have 3 skills 1 lead, 1 off-hand 1 dual. He cannot have 2 leads, or 2 off hands or 2 duals. Just 3 skills >.> thats the problem. Which is why I prefer my idea a bit >.> So that they can run more than 1 off-hand or lead but not using things in order ruins the damage off the rest of their combo.
moriz
the old SP chain follows an offhand>dual>offhand>dual attack chain. that one dealt around 580 damage.
the point is, my original idea does not require a damage nerf. there's no way you can get an instagib attack chain in a lead>offhand>dual pattern. without the "disable all other" condition, at least a few damage nerfs will have to be handed out.
LaserLight
Quit talking now, Deadly...
I am quite firmly against this idea, as it effectively turns each skill Assassins have into their normal selves and a really weak off version. Ye're forced to try and calculate so many possible chains that keeping it all balanced would become a nightmare. Yes, this takes 'skill', but it's unnecessary skill since the whole system is clumsy anyways. And even aside from that, it's a band-aid trying to sop Assassin players when their ability to deal damage to a target is eliminated. Read: "Alright you fools, you can't instagib anymore. Guild Wars is balanced again, but you bunch suck. But! We gave all your skills a weak little side effect if they're used out-combo so that you can try and stay competitive! Aren't we nice?" Good thought, but not workable. Assassins are still pretty much required to chain attacks in order to be effective, Deadly still sucks outside spike builds - and Shadow still sucks altogether - except that now we don't even have the ability to actually hit a target hard enough to matter. I have been told, repeatedly, when I tried to argue Sins back in the day when everyone thought they were just bad Warriors, that a good Warrior can charge his adrenal spike in four seconds and offload on any target of his choosing, without losing his pressure damage with that axe. In order for the Assassin to compete, it either has to be able to hugely out-damage that spike (instagib, which is apparently the Father of All Evil in this game), or be able to provide damage while also providing heavy target disruption, enough so that the target is effectively disabled. Because, as I pointed out in the thread linked in OP, Assassins take it in the ass most everywhere else compared to Warriors. This change will neither allow us to hugely outdamage Warriors, nor provide that intense target disruption. As a matter of fact, with players forced into lame lead-off-dual combos and given either weak damage or largely-ignorable effects, even a Dervish will be able to provide more disruption with such spammable nonsense as Wearying Strike. I don't think that's a good idea. Do ye?
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
|
Quote: And even aside from that, it's a band-aid trying to sop Assassin players when their ability to deal damage to a target is eliminated. Read:
"Alright you fools, you can't instagib anymore. Guild Wars is balanced again, but you bunch suck. But! We gave all your skills a weak little side effect if they're used out-combo so that you can try and stay competitive! Aren't we nice?"
Also, their now shorter-recharge spike is still more than a warrior's in terms of damage.
Quote:
Quote:
|
I have been told, repeatedly, when I tried to argue Sins back in the day when everyone thought they were just bad Warriors, that a good Warrior can charge his adrenal spike in four seconds and offload on any target of his choosing, without losing his pressure damage with that axe. In order for the Assassin to compete, it either has to be able to hugely out-damage that spike (instagib, which is apparently the Father of All Evil in this game), or be able to provide damage while also providing heavy target disruption, enough so that the target is effectively disabled. Because, as I pointed out in the thread linked in OP, Assassins take it in the ass most everywhere else compared to Warriors.
Although Assassins are inferior to all other things, their instagib option makes them overpowered. Hence, the skill balanced. Old stuff, again. Quote:
Swapping mid-spike isn't optimal, methinks, because you're wasting a little bit of time. Granted it's not a lot, but if you're trying to spike every little bit counts, mm?
And pretty much every caster profession swaps to shield when not casting. Methinks he's just talking about micro in general. Quote:
|
but either somehow give us more armor, or buff shadow steps, make us more mobile so we can escape a beating easier since we will be in melee longer, and make our attack skills recharge times shorter.