how to fix assassins
Bobby2
Quote:
moriz
and black mantis>jungle>trampling does not kill by itself. you have to follow it up with falling lotus>twisting for it to do anything.
martialis
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Your idea makes them More skillful than quite a few other classes, for less rewards >.>
With your implementation the only thing of ease for an assassin would be shadow steps >.>
Anyways I'll just repeat this >.> Lead attacks should be 1/4 cast time >.> cus Disrupting Stab is slow T_T You should listen to this man.
Assassins are a melee class, like the dervish, and their auto-attacks do very high damage. You can't turn them into a ranger-mesmer-runner thing and expect people to use them.
You have to nerf every possible spike combo, so people can't use those. This is almost certainly impossible. As long as you can kill someone with 7 attack skills and a shadow step, people will do it.
You have to be able to pressure with something besides combos, because those won't work. And you have to be able to tank. Your new attack skills are really bad compared to warriors and dervishes.
You can't buff shadowsteps for any other class.
Shadow stepping is a really wonderful idea, especially in pve, and it's necessary for any kind of utility. So make shadowstepping disable all your combos but still allow disruption, I guess.
With your implementation the only thing of ease for an assassin would be shadow steps >.>
Anyways I'll just repeat this >.> Lead attacks should be 1/4 cast time >.> cus Disrupting Stab is slow T_T You should listen to this man.
Assassins are a melee class, like the dervish, and their auto-attacks do very high damage. You can't turn them into a ranger-mesmer-runner thing and expect people to use them.
You have to nerf every possible spike combo, so people can't use those. This is almost certainly impossible. As long as you can kill someone with 7 attack skills and a shadow step, people will do it.
You have to be able to pressure with something besides combos, because those won't work. And you have to be able to tank. Your new attack skills are really bad compared to warriors and dervishes.
You can't buff shadowsteps for any other class.
Shadow stepping is a really wonderful idea, especially in pve, and it's necessary for any kind of utility. So make shadowstepping disable all your combos but still allow disruption, I guess.
moriz
that man is also very wrong, so i won't listen to him.
my idea will make sins very good for good players, average for average players, and downright bad for bad players. which btw, is the way things should be.
my idea will make sins very good for good players, average for average players, and downright bad for bad players. which btw, is the way things should be.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
and black mantis>jungle>trampling does not kill by itself. you have to follow it up with falling lotus>twisting for it to do anything.
Right, cuz any self-respecting chain involves 2 duals (hence the 'necessity' of the cheat offhands, skill compression) but I was trying to point out the LOD-chain is far from dead.
craigrs84
after thinking over this whole thread, i came to this obvious conclusion.
instagib is the assasin's niche.
if you take this away you must find another niche for it that makes it unique from all other classes otherwise there is no reason to play them.
i don't think being able to use an offhand out of order in order to put conditions on the enemy is enough. other melee classes can do the same thing only with higher armor and in a less complicated manner.
i also don't think shadowstepping alone is enough to make the assasin truly unique. other classes can do the same thing by taking an assasin secondary. and without the high damage spikes shadow stepping loses some of its attractiveness due to long recharge times.
so i think the question that we all need to ask ourselves is, if we take away istagib what will we replace it with that will make the class equally unique rather than a subpar version of the other melee classes. while the OP's ideas do promote diversity and flexiblity in play style they don't really differentiate the assasin from other melee classes. in short, the other melee classes could probably do it better.
---
one thing i've noticed lot's of people say is that they think the assasin should not be able to take a target from 100% to 0% in 5 secs. They say the assasin should play the role of a finisher, killing an already weakened target. what if we lowered the overall damage on the dagger attack chains to eliminate instagib, buff lead and offhand attacks so there is not a HUGE difference and less temptation to skip leads, and increase base dagger attack rate by a fair amount. Never understood why daggers attack at the same speed as a sword / axe anyways, they are much lighter. This would give the assasin a natural ability to shadowstep in and get their shorter chain off with less chance of being blocked, but with less overall damage so instagib is impossible. i know people will complain that daggers are already fast enough especially with IAS but there has to be some compensation for less overall damage. This could also give it a new role where it could more effectively soften targets instead of having to wait for the teammembers to lower the health of enemies. with shadowsteps it could teleport in quickly do some spike damage and teleport out again without taking much damage.
instagib is the assasin's niche.
if you take this away you must find another niche for it that makes it unique from all other classes otherwise there is no reason to play them.
i don't think being able to use an offhand out of order in order to put conditions on the enemy is enough. other melee classes can do the same thing only with higher armor and in a less complicated manner.
i also don't think shadowstepping alone is enough to make the assasin truly unique. other classes can do the same thing by taking an assasin secondary. and without the high damage spikes shadow stepping loses some of its attractiveness due to long recharge times.
so i think the question that we all need to ask ourselves is, if we take away istagib what will we replace it with that will make the class equally unique rather than a subpar version of the other melee classes. while the OP's ideas do promote diversity and flexiblity in play style they don't really differentiate the assasin from other melee classes. in short, the other melee classes could probably do it better.
---
one thing i've noticed lot's of people say is that they think the assasin should not be able to take a target from 100% to 0% in 5 secs. They say the assasin should play the role of a finisher, killing an already weakened target. what if we lowered the overall damage on the dagger attack chains to eliminate instagib, buff lead and offhand attacks so there is not a HUGE difference and less temptation to skip leads, and increase base dagger attack rate by a fair amount. Never understood why daggers attack at the same speed as a sword / axe anyways, they are much lighter. This would give the assasin a natural ability to shadowstep in and get their shorter chain off with less chance of being blocked, but with less overall damage so instagib is impossible. i know people will complain that daggers are already fast enough especially with IAS but there has to be some compensation for less overall damage. This could also give it a new role where it could more effectively soften targets instead of having to wait for the teammembers to lower the health of enemies. with shadowsteps it could teleport in quickly do some spike damage and teleport out again without taking much damage.
moriz
i see the assassin as a midline support character, capable of warrior-style linebacking while retaining the ability to unload a frontloaded spike. in addition, because of it's caster level energy regen, it can take over some mesmer functions like interrupts and enchant strips. if needed, it will have the mobility to gank and collapse really quickly.
in other words: a midline jack-of-all-trades class.
well, it's either that or we just nerf it into the ground, since it's been established that the instagib ability will have to go.
in other words: a midline jack-of-all-trades class.
well, it's either that or we just nerf it into the ground, since it's been established that the instagib ability will have to go.
ensoriki
Moriz, all additional classes
Assassin,dervish,paragon and ritualists are hybrids.
And thus The assassin should not just excel at damage.
The assassin should be a slightly weaker version of the warrior with utility that enables him to be stronger in certain ways.
Or a slightly stronger warrior, with only somewhat useful utility.
Instead of a insta-gib warrior >.>.
Rits = Air ele,Monk and Necro fusion.
Dervish = Monk,Warrior fusion
Paragon = Warrior,ranger,monk fusion >.>
Thus the sin is a warrior,mesmer fusion.
The goal should be to give a proper hybrid form.
Unlike the warrior whos DPS excells, the warrior's damage is weakened massively by high armor, do the the weak +damage skills, that compliment the higher base and maximum damage.
The assassin is the opposite, High + damage to compliment weaker base damage.
This gives the assassin use against armor ignoring foes in pve and against high armored pvp'rs (warriors). The assassin just needs a couple tweaks, and the utility to make him a proper hybrid IMO
Assassin,dervish,paragon and ritualists are hybrids.
And thus The assassin should not just excel at damage.
The assassin should be a slightly weaker version of the warrior with utility that enables him to be stronger in certain ways.
Or a slightly stronger warrior, with only somewhat useful utility.
Instead of a insta-gib warrior >.>.
Rits = Air ele,Monk and Necro fusion.
Dervish = Monk,Warrior fusion
Paragon = Warrior,ranger,monk fusion >.>
Thus the sin is a warrior,mesmer fusion.
The goal should be to give a proper hybrid form.
Unlike the warrior whos DPS excells, the warrior's damage is weakened massively by high armor, do the the weak +damage skills, that compliment the higher base and maximum damage.
The assassin is the opposite, High + damage to compliment weaker base damage.
This gives the assassin use against armor ignoring foes in pve and against high armored pvp'rs (warriors). The assassin just needs a couple tweaks, and the utility to make him a proper hybrid IMO
horseradish
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
Since instagib has to be exterminated, what would be replaced?
Lower plus damage and lower recharges make it a warrior with -30 armor and chopsticks.
However, buffing some hexes and half-ranged spells for added utility (along with nerfing the correct ones of both) & lower plus damage and recharges of some skills could work well.
Lead attacks need a buff. I would like to see some armor penetration...or an additional % chance of critical. Something.
I hope the assassin profession will become a very mobile, single target pressure, support class with utility.
And...not broken.
MercenaryK
I am positive that armor penetration will only affect your base damage, not the +damage from skills. So all ideas for skills to have armor penetration wouldn't be much on daggers. Unless you want to be hungry for all that extra damage then all sins would want sundering on their daggers to stack with the skills.
Not a good idea for armor penetration to be added to lead attacks, at least I think so.
Not a good idea for armor penetration to be added to lead attacks, at least I think so.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryK
I am positive that armor penetration will only affect your base damage, not the +damage from skills. So all ideas for skills to have armor penetration wouldn't be much on daggers. Unless you want to be hungry for all that extra damage then all sins would want sundering on their daggers to stack with the skills.
Not a good idea for armor penetration to be added to lead attacks, at least I think so. That is true. +Damage ignores armor.
Not a good idea for armor penetration to be added to lead attacks, at least I think so. That is true. +Damage ignores armor.
martialis
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
15e 20r
Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If this attack hits, target foe is Dazed and Blinded for 1...8 seconds, and if target foe is casting a Spell, that foe is interrupted. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a foe with no allies adjacent, it does no damage, and target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds Oh, and you can rewrite the descriptions as:
temple strike
15e 20r
Off-Hand Attack. Target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds. If this follows a Lead Attack, target foe is interrupted and Dazed for 1...8 seconds.
And make it not suck.
yum
Quote:
Originally Posted by martialis
temple strike
15e 20r
Off-Hand Attack. Target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds. If this follows a Lead Attack, target foe is interrupted and Dazed for 1...8 seconds.
And make it not suck. Sadly the 15e cost and 20 recharge makes it sux balls no matter how you fix it.
ensoriki
leads should have something for following duals.
I dunno heres some ideas.
Wild strike, if it hits you remove a stance. If you remove a stance you do +25 damage.If this attack follows a lead attack you do an additional +35 damage.
This attack cannot be blocked
This = to +60 and then the additional of dagger base damage.
The comment may be, This is too strong!
The damage is conditional in that you must remove a stance, who uses stances the most? warriors, warriors already don't take a lot of damage from assassin's so its not a huge deal, against monks and others with no stances your still just doing +35 damage, IF you followed a lead, otherwise your getting dagger damage =P
Jagged strike.
Normal stuff. If this hits a foe suffering from DW you do 40 damage (affected by armor). If this follows a dual attack you do an additional +20 damage.
Jagged strike, has 1 second recharge, but once you use it, its considered a lead attack thus that conditional Dual attack damage triggers once. The DW damage can be triggered as long as you have DW on your target.
GPS: If you are not enchanted this skill misses. If it hits Golden Phoenix strike does +15....36 damage (12 dagger mastery)
If this follows a lead attack you do burning for 1...4.....6 seconds (6 seconds at 15, DM)
Giving Off-hands good synergy with Lead's promotes them, Giving Leads ways of being better after a dual attack is great too.
Leaping Mantis Sting,
Exact same crap.
If this follows a dual attack you create Cripple for 10 seconds (thus now unconditional)
and an additional +10 damage.
Temple strike, 15 energy, 20 recharge =P
, if this attack hits you cause blinded a Dazed for 2....9 seconds.
If this attack hits a bleeding foe it causes weakness for 10 seconds.
If this follows a lead attack you do +20 damage.
Temple strike is now great for other uses.
With Sharpen Daggers, Leaping Mantis Sting and Temple.
You can do Blind, Daze, Bleeding AND Weakness, and the weakness coveres the daze.
Followed by your dual attack, Sharpen daggers will refresh the bleed covering weakness,blind and Daze!
And followed by a dual attack like Twisting,
And if your crazy go A/R with Apply poison (WTF) and put signet of toxic shock ..
So its like
SHarpen Daggers,Leaping,Temple.Twisting,Signet of Deadly corruption,Apply poison
Dark escape! Resurrection signet.
You only get a huge spike if you do it right, and you can put daze/blind when you need it most.
Using sharpen as a cover condition, Apply poison as well for boosts of Signet of deadly curroption and cover for your main conditions of DW,Blind and Daze.
DW+signet of DW = 230 damage, + all the damage in between and the degen.... and weakness!
Wtf was my point again?
Oh ya, if we make it so sin's get high damage for playing smart, or good pressure damage with great utility.
Boom great.
I dunno heres some ideas.
Wild strike, if it hits you remove a stance. If you remove a stance you do +25 damage.If this attack follows a lead attack you do an additional +35 damage.
This attack cannot be blocked
This = to +60 and then the additional of dagger base damage.
The comment may be, This is too strong!
The damage is conditional in that you must remove a stance, who uses stances the most? warriors, warriors already don't take a lot of damage from assassin's so its not a huge deal, against monks and others with no stances your still just doing +35 damage, IF you followed a lead, otherwise your getting dagger damage =P
Jagged strike.
Normal stuff. If this hits a foe suffering from DW you do 40 damage (affected by armor). If this follows a dual attack you do an additional +20 damage.
Jagged strike, has 1 second recharge, but once you use it, its considered a lead attack thus that conditional Dual attack damage triggers once. The DW damage can be triggered as long as you have DW on your target.
GPS: If you are not enchanted this skill misses. If it hits Golden Phoenix strike does +15....36 damage (12 dagger mastery)
If this follows a lead attack you do burning for 1...4.....6 seconds (6 seconds at 15, DM)
Giving Off-hands good synergy with Lead's promotes them, Giving Leads ways of being better after a dual attack is great too.
Leaping Mantis Sting,
Exact same crap.
If this follows a dual attack you create Cripple for 10 seconds (thus now unconditional)
and an additional +10 damage.
Temple strike, 15 energy, 20 recharge =P
, if this attack hits you cause blinded a Dazed for 2....9 seconds.
If this attack hits a bleeding foe it causes weakness for 10 seconds.
If this follows a lead attack you do +20 damage.
Temple strike is now great for other uses.
With Sharpen Daggers, Leaping Mantis Sting and Temple.
You can do Blind, Daze, Bleeding AND Weakness, and the weakness coveres the daze.
Followed by your dual attack, Sharpen daggers will refresh the bleed covering weakness,blind and Daze!
And followed by a dual attack like Twisting,
And if your crazy go A/R with Apply poison (WTF) and put signet of toxic shock ..
So its like
SHarpen Daggers,Leaping,Temple.Twisting,Signet of Deadly corruption,Apply poison
Dark escape! Resurrection signet.
You only get a huge spike if you do it right, and you can put daze/blind when you need it most.
Using sharpen as a cover condition, Apply poison as well for boosts of Signet of deadly curroption and cover for your main conditions of DW,Blind and Daze.
DW+signet of DW = 230 damage, + all the damage in between and the degen.... and weakness!
Wtf was my point again?
Oh ya, if we make it so sin's get high damage for playing smart, or good pressure damage with great utility.
Boom great.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by martialis
temple strike
15e 20r
Dagger Attack. Target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds. If this follows a Lead Attack, target foe is interrupted and Dazed for 1...8 seconds, and this is treated as an off-hand attack. Fixed. Minor word problem, 's all.
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by martialis
temple strike
Temple strike, 15 energy, 20 recharge =P
, if this attack hits you cause blinded a Dazed for 2....12 seconds.
If this attack hits a bleeding foe it causes weakness for 10 seconds.
If this follows a lead attack you do +20 damage and is counted as an off-hand attack
And make it not awesome Super DEE DUPER FIX'd!
MercenaryK
I took holymasamune's suggestion of watching some high end GvG (and it's hard to tell who's HanD with the Japanese kanji) and searched high and low for all Assassin's used in fights. I found two that danced around their foes, using the SP build, but tweaked a slight tad. Most of the time they didn't out right kill their foes, more than likely due to enchants/monks, but very close to death.
Then I've watched them take out a few people here and there. I think the Sin is more for the 'scare' tactic. If you don't watch them carefully, they'll gank some one, but if you keep an eye on them death can be prevented. I'm beginning to think there isn't anything wrong with Sins. It's all about catching your foe off-guard or get them unexpected, thus why SP is so popular: you're in so fast and they don't have time to get out. Think about walking up to someone and unleashing a combo... the enemy monk will clearly see you, if they're paying good attention, and throw up prots.
"Sorry Mr. Sin, but the only death's you'll be causing, will be in your dreams."
And I took note of the skills they were using, besides SP. The two of them were using L-O-D I noticed for sure, but the rest of the skills seemed to vary, like two dual attacks, maybe. However this made me go and re-create the build (minus the SP) to test how fast it killed. Substituting Siphon Speed for the Hex, I brought a L-O-D-O-D and against MoD he had .... roughly 1/20th (throwing a number out there) of life left after the combo. Conditions finished him off as I stopped attacking after that. The IAS used was Frenzy/Flurry (no TS).
My point is that there are some L-O-D's out there, and no you can't just use L-O-D but there's options that can stem from there. I imagine everyone, almost, watches GvG from time to time. It seems like all the changes here are a huge wish-list that'll never happen, so why not focus on using what there is?
Then I've watched them take out a few people here and there. I think the Sin is more for the 'scare' tactic. If you don't watch them carefully, they'll gank some one, but if you keep an eye on them death can be prevented. I'm beginning to think there isn't anything wrong with Sins. It's all about catching your foe off-guard or get them unexpected, thus why SP is so popular: you're in so fast and they don't have time to get out. Think about walking up to someone and unleashing a combo... the enemy monk will clearly see you, if they're paying good attention, and throw up prots.
"Sorry Mr. Sin, but the only death's you'll be causing, will be in your dreams."
And I took note of the skills they were using, besides SP. The two of them were using L-O-D I noticed for sure, but the rest of the skills seemed to vary, like two dual attacks, maybe. However this made me go and re-create the build (minus the SP) to test how fast it killed. Substituting Siphon Speed for the Hex, I brought a L-O-D-O-D and against MoD he had .... roughly 1/20th (throwing a number out there) of life left after the combo. Conditions finished him off as I stopped attacking after that. The IAS used was Frenzy/Flurry (no TS).
My point is that there are some L-O-D's out there, and no you can't just use L-O-D but there's options that can stem from there. I imagine everyone, almost, watches GvG from time to time. It seems like all the changes here are a huge wish-list that'll never happen, so why not focus on using what there is?
ensoriki
Everyone and their mom knows about L-O-D-O-D MercenaryK
WTF do you think we used at the beginning of factions?
You'd see a whole bunch of that crap in arenas.
Unsuspecting,Fox fangs,Horns,Falling,Twisting
Some people replaced Unsuspecting/fox with Palm strike.
L-O-D-O-D you speak off is nothing new, and people would much rather take O-D-O-D, better bar compression, faster, pretty much just as good, since the lead barely does anything.
WTF do you think we used at the beginning of factions?
You'd see a whole bunch of that crap in arenas.
Unsuspecting,Fox fangs,Horns,Falling,Twisting
Some people replaced Unsuspecting/fox with Palm strike.
L-O-D-O-D you speak off is nothing new, and people would much rather take O-D-O-D, better bar compression, faster, pretty much just as good, since the lead barely does anything.
MercenaryK
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Everyone and their mom knows about L-O-D-O-D MercenaryK
WTF do you think we used at the beginning of factions?
You'd see a whole bunch of that crap in arenas.
Unsuspecting,Fox fangs,Horns,Falling,Twisting
Some people replaced Unsuspecting/fox with Palm strike.
L-O-D-O-D you speak off is nothing new, and people would much rather take O-D-O-D, better bar compression, faster, pretty much just as good, since the lead barely does anything. I don't know, I wasn't positive knowing such a thing was necessary knowledge. Maybe I'll make a poll about that.
WTF do you think we used at the beginning of factions?
You'd see a whole bunch of that crap in arenas.
Unsuspecting,Fox fangs,Horns,Falling,Twisting
Some people replaced Unsuspecting/fox with Palm strike.
L-O-D-O-D you speak off is nothing new, and people would much rather take O-D-O-D, better bar compression, faster, pretty much just as good, since the lead barely does anything. I don't know, I wasn't positive knowing such a thing was necessary knowledge. Maybe I'll make a poll about that.
ensoriki
Just so you know, im not trying to flame you >.>
Also its not necessary =P
L O-Dx2
Isn't used much because Its 5 skill slots, 1 slot is probably rez.
The other slots are probably just something to snare >.>
Also its not necessary =P
L O-Dx2
Isn't used much because Its 5 skill slots, 1 slot is probably rez.
The other slots are probably just something to snare >.>
MercenaryK
My apologies, it's hard to tell whether you were or weren't.
And you're right, 4 attack skills > 5 attack skills since it leaves more room.
And you're right, 4 attack skills > 5 attack skills since it leaves more room.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryK
My apologies, it's hard to tell whether you were or weren't.
And you're right, 4 attack skills > 5 attack skills since it leaves more room. 4 Attacks can IMO only be done convincingly in a SP build. Why? A Sin wants his snare, I know I do, and no O or D has cripple or suchlike. Just to note, I consider the immense KDage of the AoD Shock Sin a form of snaring as well, so don't break the argument on that.
I've never run a non-SP build without either LMS, Siphon Speed, or BMT (the latter two combined quite often).
Lead Attacks are NOT DEAD
EDIT: To your post top of this page: I could not agree more. I'm sick of people saying Sins are overpowered; our spikes are not too easy to ruin.
And you're right, 4 attack skills > 5 attack skills since it leaves more room. 4 Attacks can IMO only be done convincingly in a SP build. Why? A Sin wants his snare, I know I do, and no O or D has cripple or suchlike. Just to note, I consider the immense KDage of the AoD Shock Sin a form of snaring as well, so don't break the argument on that.
I've never run a non-SP build without either LMS, Siphon Speed, or BMT (the latter two combined quite often).
Lead Attacks are NOT DEAD
EDIT: To your post top of this page: I could not agree more. I'm sick of people saying Sins are overpowered; our spikes are not too easy to ruin.
ensoriki
Our utility sucks balls.
Lead attacks arent dead?
You just said 2 Leads you use.
Desperate strike = not used
Unsuspecting Strike= No longer used (cept in RA =P)
Golden Lotus Strike = Not used, weird!
Jagged strike = Pve only basically
Dancing daggers = Sojsin only >.>
Iron Palm = Not used really.
Golden fox strike = used.
>.> Quite alot of leads are not used >.> its a fact.
Lead attacks arent dead?
You just said 2 Leads you use.
Desperate strike = not used
Unsuspecting Strike= No longer used (cept in RA =P)
Golden Lotus Strike = Not used, weird!
Jagged strike = Pve only basically
Dancing daggers = Sojsin only >.>
Iron Palm = Not used really.
Golden fox strike = used.
>.> Quite alot of leads are not used >.> its a fact.
MercenaryK
Wouldn't Unsuspecting Strike be a decent lead for hard hitting power? Especially if you truly want to bring your target from alive to dead? Sure it's 10 energy but an attunement rune or even +5e on your daggers can cover that.
LaserLight
The problem with that is that using Unsuspecting forces you to use a standard off-hand, unless you're pulling something weird. And as we all know, most standard off-hands bite. The only one that does any appreciable damage is Jungle Strike, which requires set-up that Unsuspecting doesn't give. I've tried a Grenth's Grasp Assassin a couple times, run Unsuspecting/Jungle/Fangs, but the damage just isn't there even then, and it's rather energy-intensive. Heh, was great for mad snaring though.
ensoriki
Unsuspecting is really a 1 time use, once you use it, unless the monk sends that red bar all the way to Zombie jesus, it won't deal massive damage twice.
also 90% condition? That just means you have to target someone at full health to do the good damage >.>
also 90% condition? That just means you have to target someone at full health to do the good damage >.>
MercenaryK
Don't most assassins go after full health targets? The 90% conditional damage makes up for the energy cost and is more than enough to take a huge chunk out of them.
You'd have to switch targets and put pressure on different characters if your kill doesn't go right the first time, to keep getting the 90% benefit.
And Laser I did try looking for a good off-hand to follow up, and it was either Fox Fangs or Wild Strike, nothing really great ~_~
I think it wouldn't hurt to give the sin a couple of different skills, rather than re-make the current ones. Seems limited in their chains/combos when you look at the list of dagger skills.
You'd have to switch targets and put pressure on different characters if your kill doesn't go right the first time, to keep getting the 90% benefit.
And Laser I did try looking for a good off-hand to follow up, and it was either Fox Fangs or Wild Strike, nothing really great ~_~
I think it wouldn't hurt to give the sin a couple of different skills, rather than re-make the current ones. Seems limited in their chains/combos when you look at the list of dagger skills.
Yanman.be
In the past I would have advised to go to full health targets. Due to the latest power reductions for our class, I'd say to build a shorter, but better "compact" combo, that might pick off weakened targets, or duospike with another char.
X Cytherea X
the only near-perfect l-o-d at the moment is gfs-ws-sa. anet should build l-o-d around this concept: awesome synergy, spammability and decent damage
Quote:
Quote:
Then I've watched them take out a few people here and there. I think the Sin is more for the 'scare' tactic. If you don't watch them carefully, they'll gank some one, but if you keep an eye on them death can be prevented. I'm beginning to think there isn't anything wrong with Sins. It's all about catching your foe off-guard or get them unexpected THANK YOU, someone who actually watches them in action with an open mind.
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
THANK YOU, someone who actually watches them in action with and agrees with my stupidity. Fixed for the win.
Sniffy
I'm posting on the fly and haven't really given a lot of thought to how this would work out but I'll post it anyways so ready your flamethrowers....
Remove lead attacks.
Off-hands now function as lead attacks (or the leads could function as off-hands I don't really care)
Dual attacks still function much the same way.
Triple (needs catchier name obviously) attacks. These would function as a dual attack only you hit three times.
You would encourage Assassins to use the skills like
Off-Dual-Tri
and *not* Off-Dual-Tri-Off-Dual-Tri by having Tri attacks temporarily disable Off hands so you don't have these insanely long chains.
So, *in general* you would have three main skills which did damage.
In general, I'm thinking shorter recharge (8 to twelve seconds (I'm with Coloneh)), can't kill from full health, but still provide a respectable spike.
The shortness of the chain would mean you can do decent amounts of damage, while not hanging around forever, but your chain is still counterable by things like blind and block of course. (This needs work, if assassins would only have 3 attack chains they could all pack Sight Beyond Sight for blind immunity which would be unfair, I'm just not sure how to change this yet)
So, a usable spike, that doesn't neccesarrily kill, but is blockable, but is short enough to be usable.
*Then* we buff Assassin utility.
Temporary shutdown, dazes and blinds which only work for a few seconds.
Enchant removal, temporary skill disabling for assassin and target, (not unlike blackout).
Overall, if done right, there would be a fairly limited (but not too limited) number of possible chains, and a large part of the build would be focused around the shutdown being done properly.
In short, you have to use your right conditional shutdowns at the right time, your right spike, at the right time.
You would have to make sure the shutdowns were not powerful enought to be abused in GvG and other high-end PvP.
This would move assassins from Build Wars to Guild Wars. Since it would be more about how the combo is played, than what the combo is. This would prevent a large amount of the BuildWiki abuse which got the sin nerfed in the first place.
In short, the Assassin would move from being a solo-spike instakill to a coordinated team player, still possessing spike capability, without being overpowered, you *might* want to buff base dagger damage somewhat, so that, if absolutely neccessary, an assassin could solo someone from full health, it would just take longer. With some Shadow Arts buffs, (possibly even a temporary increased armor buff)
This would hopefully move assassins so that it's about how they are played, less about if your Wiki bar beats my Wiki bar.
Also, Shadow Arts should be buffed, and in a way more intended for Assassins, than for Monk abuse, but it could still be usable for Monks.
Deadly Paradox functionality would need to change to prevent abuse.
The functionality of shadow stepping would have to change somewhat (who would want to use a 20 second recharge shadow step with an 8-12 second recharge chain?)
So skills like Shadow Fang (unsuable with it's current recharge) and possibly Dark Prison, as well as Shadow Prison would be changed to make it more usable with the new direction Sins would be taking.
Overall, this was primarily intended as more of a PvP thing. Maybe someone with more PvE experience could comment on how this could work in PvE.
Any thoughts/improvements/bringouttheflamethrowers?
Remove lead attacks.
Off-hands now function as lead attacks (or the leads could function as off-hands I don't really care)
Dual attacks still function much the same way.
Triple (needs catchier name obviously) attacks. These would function as a dual attack only you hit three times.
You would encourage Assassins to use the skills like
Off-Dual-Tri
and *not* Off-Dual-Tri-Off-Dual-Tri by having Tri attacks temporarily disable Off hands so you don't have these insanely long chains.
So, *in general* you would have three main skills which did damage.
In general, I'm thinking shorter recharge (8 to twelve seconds (I'm with Coloneh)), can't kill from full health, but still provide a respectable spike.
The shortness of the chain would mean you can do decent amounts of damage, while not hanging around forever, but your chain is still counterable by things like blind and block of course. (This needs work, if assassins would only have 3 attack chains they could all pack Sight Beyond Sight for blind immunity which would be unfair, I'm just not sure how to change this yet)
So, a usable spike, that doesn't neccesarrily kill, but is blockable, but is short enough to be usable.
*Then* we buff Assassin utility.
Temporary shutdown, dazes and blinds which only work for a few seconds.
Enchant removal, temporary skill disabling for assassin and target, (not unlike blackout).
Overall, if done right, there would be a fairly limited (but not too limited) number of possible chains, and a large part of the build would be focused around the shutdown being done properly.
In short, you have to use your right conditional shutdowns at the right time, your right spike, at the right time.
You would have to make sure the shutdowns were not powerful enought to be abused in GvG and other high-end PvP.
This would move assassins from Build Wars to Guild Wars. Since it would be more about how the combo is played, than what the combo is. This would prevent a large amount of the BuildWiki abuse which got the sin nerfed in the first place.
In short, the Assassin would move from being a solo-spike instakill to a coordinated team player, still possessing spike capability, without being overpowered, you *might* want to buff base dagger damage somewhat, so that, if absolutely neccessary, an assassin could solo someone from full health, it would just take longer. With some Shadow Arts buffs, (possibly even a temporary increased armor buff)
This would hopefully move assassins so that it's about how they are played, less about if your Wiki bar beats my Wiki bar.
Also, Shadow Arts should be buffed, and in a way more intended for Assassins, than for Monk abuse, but it could still be usable for Monks.
Deadly Paradox functionality would need to change to prevent abuse.
The functionality of shadow stepping would have to change somewhat (who would want to use a 20 second recharge shadow step with an 8-12 second recharge chain?)
So skills like Shadow Fang (unsuable with it's current recharge) and possibly Dark Prison, as well as Shadow Prison would be changed to make it more usable with the new direction Sins would be taking.
Overall, this was primarily intended as more of a PvP thing. Maybe someone with more PvE experience could comment on how this could work in PvE.
Any thoughts/improvements/bringouttheflamethrowers?
Jaigoda
That would absolutely ruin PvE 'Sins... No more point in MBlossom. And what's to stop people from still running off-dual-off-dual combos if you don't nerf duals? And if you nerf duals, you're just making a slightly more powerful L-O-D combo. Nice idea, but I just don't think it'll work. And as for shadow-steps, right now spike attacks recharge in 8-12 seconds, and SP (and TS) recharges in 20. It'd be the same thing. And also, I highly doubt A-net would be willing to give us a whole new set of attacks, and delete a whole set of attacks. They've (from my knowledge) never deleted a skill, and the only skills they're created aside from campaign releases are the Factions/NF PvE skills. But yeah, sorry but I'm against this.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
In the past I would have advised to go to full health targets. Due to the latest power reductions for our class, I'd say to build a shorter, but better "compact" combo, that might pick off weakened targets, or duospike with another char.
Ah. So I'm not the only one who feels we've been reduced to ganking if we want to have any survivability at all...
ensoriki
WTF triple attacks!?
....Im not going to even Say anything more.
Sin utility could really be what makes or breaks this class and makes it balanced or not, not just daggers >.>. If assassin Utility was up to par, it could conpensate for weak L-O-D combo's and make them strong enough to do serious damage the first time, and screw them over the second time =P. Crazy idea...im going to say it anyways.
Heres an L-O-D chain (that I've buffed, all damage/whatever figures 12 DM/CS/)
[card]Leaping Mantis Sting[/card]Lead attack. 5 energy, 1/4 activation 3 recharge.
If this hits you deal +30 damage.
If this hits a moving foe you inflict cripple for 16 seconds.
If this hits a crippled foe you deal an additional +10 damage.
This mean's if you stay on your target and cycle your chain, your still doing some good damage (better than the 1st time)
[card]Fox Fangs[/card]Off-hand. 5 energy, 3 recharge
If this hits you deal +27 damage.
If this attack fails to hit, you deal 40 damage to all adjacent foes.
If this follows a lead attack you do an additional +12 damage (not affected if you fail to hit).
If this does not follow a lead attack, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack and takes an additional 5 seconds to recharge. This skill cannot be blocked
[card]Nine Tail Strike[/card] Dual attack, 5 energy 4 recharge
If this hits you deal +30 damage. If this attack fails to hit you deal 50 damage to all adjacent foes. If this follows an off-hand attack you deal an additional +13 damage.
If this skill does not follow an off-hand attack, your next attack skill misses and takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge.
This skill cannot be blocked.
The fox line has been changed to be, Pretty much unstoppable!
However by making the miss damage Armor affected, It does almost nothing to warriors/paragons/dervish/sins, and isn't very painful on monks.
However as its adjacent damage...it will find its way onto pve builds.
Making Duals make your next skill miss and recharge is better than making the dual itself recharge. Dual's get much better damage from following a off-hand, and so DDDD, won't work as 2 of the skills will miss for not having an off-hand.
And take even longer to recharge,,..
So the sin will just simply get 2 dual attacks off and if he trys it again he gets the rest of his combo recharging (and with less damage from not following a lead)
Really the only thing that can pull off multiple dual attacks like that
is a Flourish/sins promise sin.
And a sin casting flourish in between his spike >.> Ton's of time to save your ass.
Oh and just for the sake of Fixing assassins
[card]Deadly paradox[/card]All your assassin enchantment spells activate and recharge 50% faster and your assassin attacks Recharge (not activate) 50% faster. hex's cast 50% faster and last 50% longer on you, and all non assassin enchantments cast 50% slower on you.
Signet spike ...dead, Augury,DD spam...DEAD....entangling spam...urr...DEAD...
Quick recharging combos....alive...Shadow form farming >.> still intact.
>.> might change that to make your assassin Hex's activate faster instead of enchantments =P
______________
Anyways >.> Sin's used to be able to do a bit more stuff in the past....
Before an assassin could go after a full hp target, without using SP or Castersin.
Now pretty much any sin who is not 1 of those >.> Needs to pick off injured foes.
....Im not going to even Say anything more.
Sin utility could really be what makes or breaks this class and makes it balanced or not, not just daggers >.>. If assassin Utility was up to par, it could conpensate for weak L-O-D combo's and make them strong enough to do serious damage the first time, and screw them over the second time =P. Crazy idea...im going to say it anyways.
Heres an L-O-D chain (that I've buffed, all damage/whatever figures 12 DM/CS/)
[card]Leaping Mantis Sting[/card]Lead attack. 5 energy, 1/4 activation 3 recharge.
If this hits you deal +30 damage.
If this hits a moving foe you inflict cripple for 16 seconds.
If this hits a crippled foe you deal an additional +10 damage.
This mean's if you stay on your target and cycle your chain, your still doing some good damage (better than the 1st time)
[card]Fox Fangs[/card]Off-hand. 5 energy, 3 recharge
If this hits you deal +27 damage.
If this attack fails to hit, you deal 40 damage to all adjacent foes.
If this follows a lead attack you do an additional +12 damage (not affected if you fail to hit).
If this does not follow a lead attack, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack and takes an additional 5 seconds to recharge. This skill cannot be blocked
[card]Nine Tail Strike[/card] Dual attack, 5 energy 4 recharge
If this hits you deal +30 damage. If this attack fails to hit you deal 50 damage to all adjacent foes. If this follows an off-hand attack you deal an additional +13 damage.
If this skill does not follow an off-hand attack, your next attack skill misses and takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge.
This skill cannot be blocked.
The fox line has been changed to be, Pretty much unstoppable!
However by making the miss damage Armor affected, It does almost nothing to warriors/paragons/dervish/sins, and isn't very painful on monks.
However as its adjacent damage...it will find its way onto pve builds.
Making Duals make your next skill miss and recharge is better than making the dual itself recharge. Dual's get much better damage from following a off-hand, and so DDDD, won't work as 2 of the skills will miss for not having an off-hand.
And take even longer to recharge,,..
So the sin will just simply get 2 dual attacks off and if he trys it again he gets the rest of his combo recharging (and with less damage from not following a lead)
Really the only thing that can pull off multiple dual attacks like that
is a Flourish/sins promise sin.
And a sin casting flourish in between his spike >.> Ton's of time to save your ass.
Oh and just for the sake of Fixing assassins
[card]Deadly paradox[/card]All your assassin enchantment spells activate and recharge 50% faster and your assassin attacks Recharge (not activate) 50% faster. hex's cast 50% faster and last 50% longer on you, and all non assassin enchantments cast 50% slower on you.
Signet spike ...dead, Augury,DD spam...DEAD....entangling spam...urr...DEAD...
Quick recharging combos....alive...Shadow form farming >.> still intact.
>.> might change that to make your assassin Hex's activate faster instead of enchantments =P
______________
Anyways >.> Sin's used to be able to do a bit more stuff in the past....
Before an assassin could go after a full hp target, without using SP or Castersin.
Now pretty much any sin who is not 1 of those >.> Needs to pick off injured foes.
Sniffy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
That would absolutely ruin PvE 'Sins... No more point in MBlossom. And what's to stop people from still running off-dual-off-dual combos if you don't nerf duals? And if you nerf duals, you're just making a slightly more powerful L-O-D combo. Nice idea, but I just don't think it'll work. And as for shadow-steps, right now spike attacks recharge in 8-12 seconds, and SP (and TS) recharges in 20. It'd be the same thing. And also, I highly doubt A-net would be willing to give us a whole new set of attacks, and delete a whole set of attacks. They've (from my knowledge) never deleted a skill, and the only skills they're created aside from campaign releases are the Factions/NF PvE skills. But yeah, sorry but I'm against this.
All you would have to do is nerf duals somewhat, and make tri attacks the more powerful ones. This would eliminate the incentive off-dual-off-dual because it would be as pitiful as the current lead-off-dual-lead-off-dual.
The idea is that a lot of the skills related to damage and doing your chains (dagger attacks already have this as you said) mainly things that could be neccessary to start your chain, such as a hex or shadow step, would be based on a shorter recharge, somewhat less powerful chain. Like I said, I'm no PvE, but I'm guessing that something could supplant the overused moebius death blossom build, which seems to be about the only build sins have going for them right now, besides SoJ and Way of the Master.
I don't really expect Anet to act on any of this anyways. But as they are currently, Assassins are kind of broken, and there has to be a first time for everything....
The idea is that a lot of the skills related to damage and doing your chains (dagger attacks already have this as you said) mainly things that could be neccessary to start your chain, such as a hex or shadow step, would be based on a shorter recharge, somewhat less powerful chain. Like I said, I'm no PvE, but I'm guessing that something could supplant the overused moebius death blossom build, which seems to be about the only build sins have going for them right now, besides SoJ and Way of the Master.
I don't really expect Anet to act on any of this anyways. But as they are currently, Assassins are kind of broken, and there has to be a first time for everything....
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffy
All you would have to do is nerf duals somewhat, and make tri attacks the more powerful ones. This would eliminate the incentive off-dual-off-dual because it would be as pitiful as the current lead-off-dual-lead-off-dual.
The idea is that a lot of the skills related to damage and doing your chains (dagger attacks already have this as you said) mainly things that could be neccessary to start your chain, such as a hex or shadow step, would be based on a shorter recharge, somewhat less powerful chain. Like I said, I'm no PvE, but I'm guessing that something could supplant the overused moebius death blossom build, which seems to be about the only build sins have going for them right now, besides SoJ and Way of the Master.
I don't really expect Anet to act on any of this anyways. But as they are currently, Assassins are kind of broken, and there has to be a first time for everything.... no tri-attacks. That sillyness is bad...bad sauce.
Actually its not that your idea is bad....what i've seen described to me is bad.
Ur....lets nerf duals a bit...and bring something even RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin stronger!!! with more hits to bypass things like block/blind.
or we could boost up the lead/off hand stuff that is singular attacks >.> and won't just be pissing off MORE people...and is easier to impliment,less confusing, would bring less bugs, and cause less exploits
The idea is that a lot of the skills related to damage and doing your chains (dagger attacks already have this as you said) mainly things that could be neccessary to start your chain, such as a hex or shadow step, would be based on a shorter recharge, somewhat less powerful chain. Like I said, I'm no PvE, but I'm guessing that something could supplant the overused moebius death blossom build, which seems to be about the only build sins have going for them right now, besides SoJ and Way of the Master.
I don't really expect Anet to act on any of this anyways. But as they are currently, Assassins are kind of broken, and there has to be a first time for everything.... no tri-attacks. That sillyness is bad...bad sauce.
Actually its not that your idea is bad....what i've seen described to me is bad.
Ur....lets nerf duals a bit...and bring something even RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin stronger!!! with more hits to bypass things like block/blind.
or we could boost up the lead/off hand stuff that is singular attacks >.> and won't just be pissing off MORE people...and is easier to impliment,less confusing, would bring less bugs, and cause less exploits
Sniffy
[QUOTE=ensoriki]WTF triple attacks!?
....Im not going to even Say anything more.
Because.....? It's thinking outside the box? If Assassins aren't allowed to kill people, they should at least be allowed utility, while still mantaining some semblance of respectable damage. Tri attacks would be one way to help free up slots on a sins bar for utilitity, while the temporary disable would make overpowered off-dual-tri attacks able to do a decent amount of damage, while limiting them from killing people, which apparently is considered overpowered.
....Im not going to even Say anything more.
Because.....? It's thinking outside the box? If Assassins aren't allowed to kill people, they should at least be allowed utility, while still mantaining some semblance of respectable damage. Tri attacks would be one way to help free up slots on a sins bar for utilitity, while the temporary disable would make overpowered off-dual-tri attacks able to do a decent amount of damage, while limiting them from killing people, which apparently is considered overpowered.
ensoriki
[QUOTE=Sniffy]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
WTF triple attacks!?
....Im not going to even Say anything more.
Because.....? It's thinking outside the box? If Assassins aren't allowed to kill people, they should at least be allowed utility, while still mantaining some semblance of respectable damage. Tri attacks would be one way to help free up slots on a sins bar for utilitity, while the temporary disable would make overpowered off-dual-tri attacks able to do a decent amount of damage, while limiting them from killing people, which apparently is considered overpowered. Scrapping that idea and buffing the current system works better.
I doubt its the fact that assassins kill thats overpowered, if it is then >.> God people are stupid.
Its that they are killing in about 3 seconds or 4 seconds.
All while the target is on his ass.
Before IAS's
The assassin at best took 5--8 seconds to kill a target.
And could be defended against better.
It's not even really just shadow steps, while they piss people off.
An assassin with an IAS is what probably pisses people off the most.
A class that has no IAS in pvp, for the sake that A-net knows it will RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over the game.
Having access to IAS's in pvp? Well.....interesting.
you could have
Dual/triple/quadruple....sextuple hits for attacks.
An assassin with an IAS would make it breeze buy and the targets on the floor.
Now in todays metagame 2 things.
An L-O-D sin is the pits.
Sin utility is crap (pretty much always has been..probably always will be)
Sin with an IAS = Better than any assassin without it >.>
Except for a siphon strength sin...or Mirror stance sin....but those are so rare >.> I expect to see the T-rex in Canada first.
....Im not going to even Say anything more.
Because.....? It's thinking outside the box? If Assassins aren't allowed to kill people, they should at least be allowed utility, while still mantaining some semblance of respectable damage. Tri attacks would be one way to help free up slots on a sins bar for utilitity, while the temporary disable would make overpowered off-dual-tri attacks able to do a decent amount of damage, while limiting them from killing people, which apparently is considered overpowered. Scrapping that idea and buffing the current system works better.
I doubt its the fact that assassins kill thats overpowered, if it is then >.> God people are stupid.
Its that they are killing in about 3 seconds or 4 seconds.
All while the target is on his ass.
Before IAS's
The assassin at best took 5--8 seconds to kill a target.
And could be defended against better.
It's not even really just shadow steps, while they piss people off.
An assassin with an IAS is what probably pisses people off the most.
A class that has no IAS in pvp, for the sake that A-net knows it will RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over the game.
Having access to IAS's in pvp? Well.....interesting.
you could have
Dual/triple/quadruple....sextuple hits for attacks.
An assassin with an IAS would make it breeze buy and the targets on the floor.
Now in todays metagame 2 things.
An L-O-D sin is the pits.
Sin utility is crap (pretty much always has been..probably always will be)
Sin with an IAS = Better than any assassin without it >.>
Except for a siphon strength sin...or Mirror stance sin....but those are so rare >.> I expect to see the T-rex in Canada first.
Sniffy
[QUOTE=ensoriki]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffy
Scrapping that idea and buffing the current system works better.
I thought everyone was complaining about how overpowered sins were and that the system was broken. So we should keep the same system and buff them?
I doubt its the fact that assassins kill thats overpowered, if it is then >.> God people are stupid.
Its that they are killing in about 3 seconds or 4 seconds.
All while the target is on his ass.
Before IAS's
The assassin at best took 5--8 seconds to kill a target.
Hey, that's fine by me. All you have to do is make dagger attack skills not activate faster when under the affects of an Ias (except for crit agility).
And could be defended against better.
It's not even really just shadow steps, while they piss people off.
An assassin with an IAS is what probably pisses people off the most.
A class that has no IAS in pvp, for the sake that A-net knows it will RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over the game.
Having access to IAS's in pvp? Well.....interesting.
you could have
Dual/triple/quadruple....sextuple hits for attacks.
An assassin with an IAS would make it breeze buy and the targets on the floor.
Quote "What I just said above."
Now in todays metagame 2 things.
An L-O-D sin is the pits.
/agreewholeheartedly
Sin utility is crap (pretty much always has been..probably always will be)
Which is why I was requesting the buffs....
Sin with an IAS = Better than any assassin without it >.>
A.K.A. people complain that it's overpowered.
Except for a siphon strength sin...or Mirror stance sin....but those are so rare >.> I expect to see the T-rex in Canada first. I did actually see a Mirror stance sin. Once.
Sniffy
Heh, that post didn't quite work out. You'll have to look at the quoted material to see my replies...