how to fix assassins
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireflyry
Don't take it personal, your one of the few people here who rebuts with both logic and reasoning.
Few.
P.S LaserLight for mod.
Or at least a big thanks for saying what I want to so much better than I either could or could be bothered at the time.
Nice one man, keep it up. Nah, just saying that I agree on that as long as "when the class is designed for skills to be used in a consecutive manner", the class cannot and will not going to be used in a skillful and constructive manner.
Few.
P.S LaserLight for mod.
Or at least a big thanks for saying what I want to so much better than I either could or could be bothered at the time.
Nice one man, keep it up. Nah, just saying that I agree on that as long as "when the class is designed for skills to be used in a consecutive manner", the class cannot and will not going to be used in a skillful and constructive manner.
Yanman.be
Moral of this thread: You can win an argument, even if you're wrong.
ensoriki
Without the additional 3 classes.
Assassin, derv Paragon.
The only melee class was Warrior, and Ranger.
Having 1 class and only that class at the frontline was boring, stale and is tired and old gameplay.
Shadow steps are not a problem, the ONLY shadow step posing a significant problem is shadow prison, and IMO its the potency of the snare, not that it snares in itself.
Dark prison has existed before Nightfall, Did we use it?
Everyone answers: well this 1 time...I was experimenting and uh...ya.
Shadow steps give a tactical advange to the assassin, while you may argue it requires no foresight or intelligence to positioning. This is false.
While an idiot may shadow step nilly willy, quite a few people do think about what they're doing before they take that light speed step.
Every Shadow Step in the game has a suitable recharge or energy cost except for augury of death, which is a CRAP ASS shadow step and truly just a DW for spell casters.
The only shadow steps that naturally allow you to go and return are
Shadow meld (sexy)
and Aura of displacement.
Both elite, Shadow meld being a defensive shadow step, AoD being a hybrid of offense and defense.
Scorpion wire, like it or not requires some idea of positioning.
100m requirement is a BIT bigger than caster range and you start from half range...where you are visible and exposed to caster range. Able to be pre-prot by a monk. Scorpion however can be used as an Anti-kite tool by attacking and then letting the opponent reach the requirement for the shadow step.
Generally when you AOD, you want a safe place to return to, not just back in the middle of the battlefield. This is less of a concern for offensive shadow steps as you will not return.
Truly and earnestly the true problem of sins is not Shadow steps. Shadow steps is just a good utility that they actually bring, and the fact is, There are absolutely NO shadow steps in Critical strikes, making them accessible to everyone and anyone.
Now lets go to assassin dagger, im pressed for time so I'll make it brief.
The strength of the O-D-O-D chain truly comes out with an IAS in hand. Without an IAS you can run O-D-O-D all you want, a good monk will catch you just as they will a warrior, but a good assassin or warrior will get through this.
many people want the assassin to be like the warrior, assassins are not the warrior and so hoping so is futile and ignorant. The assassin is a different class with different mechanics. The dervish...warrior LIKE but has its own qualities.
Sin...warrior LIKE but has its own qualities as well.
Stop forcing the idea of sins without shadow steps, in a serious environment the removal of shadow steps can be more of a nerf to the class than anything else.
The assassin's futile chain will be much easier to stop then ANY warrior spike or attack. As just 1 block, destroys it all and the assassin's daggers cannot constantly put out pressure. You may say well if a warrior gets stopped his spike is done too! Warriors weapons are strong enough to Constantly hurt even WITHOUT a skill. The skills just augment the damage so that they can finish people off quicker.
Assassin's are in desperate need of buffs. Stop with the over powered idea that assassins in general are OP, this claim is false. Why is it false Ensoriki you noob you say? The assassins over powered claim comes from
1) an IAS
2) Deadly paradox.
3) The potency of Shadow prison.
making all Ias's 2 duration at 0 points = good. That leaves Flurry and Frenzy, Frenzy sins would have to learn how to cancel stance.. this is a good thing.
Flurry sins are less effective than Tiger stance sins. You may say with the daggers low damage it is nothing, false. Against a 60 AL target the daggers to play a significant role in making your +damage skills stronger.
remember most of those sills are +20-+43 or so, yet your hitting for 60's etc... thats your daggers. When your hitting 75 thats your critical hit.
In a sense the assassin needs Over all buffs.
You may say, but they are a doomed class.
The more I look, the less sufficient proof there is. Some of the proof just seems based off a peer pressure mechanism, that tricks people into thinking that is true.
Others want the assassin to use his attacks out of the chain, for what?
Yes it be nice, but we wouldn't use that option a lot. Disassembling our chain makes us weaker when we could simply just bring utility slots if L-O-D was buffed.
Again.
If leaping mantis sting
was target foe takes X...X (forgot damage)
If target foe was moving you cripple them for X...X (forgot too)
If you hit a crippled foe you deal an additional+ 3....15..17 damage
If this follows a dual attack you deal an additional +4.....15...17
We'd see more uses for L-O-D
If recharges were suitable more 4/3/5 recharge skills.
If GPS got a damage nerf.
But now Inflicted Burning if it followed a Lead.
Once again, buff to L-O-D.
You guys seem so fixated that the assassin is either OP or UP.
The above suggestion for Leaping means you get More Damage if you got the Cripple to trigger (will not activate on that use, it inflicts cripple after the damage =P)
And then after using your Dual Using Leaping on a crippled foe, your going to see some very nice numbers from your Lead attack.
GPS inflicting burning, we all know how fun burning is.
Repeating strike getting a damage buff and gives back +1 energy if it crits.
that or 1/4 cast time and damage buff. We might see more repeating assassins.
Golden Lotus strike, becoming Golden Lotus blossom with its + damage also now affecting all adjacent foes. and getting a recharge buff to a lower number.
And doing + damage or energy if it follows a dual attack
PvE assassin's would be happy and with a lower recharge, PvP sin's would be happy because they have a quick recharging E-management.
First killing IAS,DP promotes the old assassin's of after Factions.
The potency of SP needs a hit not the recharge.
Giving lead attacks more clauses such as Leaping doing more damage to crippled foes
And them all doing more for hitting after a dual attack.
works nicely.
Then you give sin's the utility buff that makes them more then just a warrior whos in a chain.
Assassin, derv Paragon.
The only melee class was Warrior, and Ranger.
Having 1 class and only that class at the frontline was boring, stale and is tired and old gameplay.
Shadow steps are not a problem, the ONLY shadow step posing a significant problem is shadow prison, and IMO its the potency of the snare, not that it snares in itself.
Dark prison has existed before Nightfall, Did we use it?
Everyone answers: well this 1 time...I was experimenting and uh...ya.
Shadow steps give a tactical advange to the assassin, while you may argue it requires no foresight or intelligence to positioning. This is false.
While an idiot may shadow step nilly willy, quite a few people do think about what they're doing before they take that light speed step.
Every Shadow Step in the game has a suitable recharge or energy cost except for augury of death, which is a CRAP ASS shadow step and truly just a DW for spell casters.
The only shadow steps that naturally allow you to go and return are
Shadow meld (sexy)
and Aura of displacement.
Both elite, Shadow meld being a defensive shadow step, AoD being a hybrid of offense and defense.
Scorpion wire, like it or not requires some idea of positioning.
100m requirement is a BIT bigger than caster range and you start from half range...where you are visible and exposed to caster range. Able to be pre-prot by a monk. Scorpion however can be used as an Anti-kite tool by attacking and then letting the opponent reach the requirement for the shadow step.
Generally when you AOD, you want a safe place to return to, not just back in the middle of the battlefield. This is less of a concern for offensive shadow steps as you will not return.
Truly and earnestly the true problem of sins is not Shadow steps. Shadow steps is just a good utility that they actually bring, and the fact is, There are absolutely NO shadow steps in Critical strikes, making them accessible to everyone and anyone.
Now lets go to assassin dagger, im pressed for time so I'll make it brief.
The strength of the O-D-O-D chain truly comes out with an IAS in hand. Without an IAS you can run O-D-O-D all you want, a good monk will catch you just as they will a warrior, but a good assassin or warrior will get through this.
many people want the assassin to be like the warrior, assassins are not the warrior and so hoping so is futile and ignorant. The assassin is a different class with different mechanics. The dervish...warrior LIKE but has its own qualities.
Sin...warrior LIKE but has its own qualities as well.
Stop forcing the idea of sins without shadow steps, in a serious environment the removal of shadow steps can be more of a nerf to the class than anything else.
The assassin's futile chain will be much easier to stop then ANY warrior spike or attack. As just 1 block, destroys it all and the assassin's daggers cannot constantly put out pressure. You may say well if a warrior gets stopped his spike is done too! Warriors weapons are strong enough to Constantly hurt even WITHOUT a skill. The skills just augment the damage so that they can finish people off quicker.
Assassin's are in desperate need of buffs. Stop with the over powered idea that assassins in general are OP, this claim is false. Why is it false Ensoriki you noob you say? The assassins over powered claim comes from
1) an IAS
2) Deadly paradox.
3) The potency of Shadow prison.
making all Ias's 2 duration at 0 points = good. That leaves Flurry and Frenzy, Frenzy sins would have to learn how to cancel stance.. this is a good thing.
Flurry sins are less effective than Tiger stance sins. You may say with the daggers low damage it is nothing, false. Against a 60 AL target the daggers to play a significant role in making your +damage skills stronger.
remember most of those sills are +20-+43 or so, yet your hitting for 60's etc... thats your daggers. When your hitting 75 thats your critical hit.
In a sense the assassin needs Over all buffs.
You may say, but they are a doomed class.
The more I look, the less sufficient proof there is. Some of the proof just seems based off a peer pressure mechanism, that tricks people into thinking that is true.
Others want the assassin to use his attacks out of the chain, for what?
Yes it be nice, but we wouldn't use that option a lot. Disassembling our chain makes us weaker when we could simply just bring utility slots if L-O-D was buffed.
Again.
If leaping mantis sting
was target foe takes X...X (forgot damage)
If target foe was moving you cripple them for X...X (forgot too)
If you hit a crippled foe you deal an additional+ 3....15..17 damage
If this follows a dual attack you deal an additional +4.....15...17
We'd see more uses for L-O-D
If recharges were suitable more 4/3/5 recharge skills.
If GPS got a damage nerf.
But now Inflicted Burning if it followed a Lead.
Once again, buff to L-O-D.
You guys seem so fixated that the assassin is either OP or UP.
The above suggestion for Leaping means you get More Damage if you got the Cripple to trigger (will not activate on that use, it inflicts cripple after the damage =P)
And then after using your Dual Using Leaping on a crippled foe, your going to see some very nice numbers from your Lead attack.
GPS inflicting burning, we all know how fun burning is.
Repeating strike getting a damage buff and gives back +1 energy if it crits.
that or 1/4 cast time and damage buff. We might see more repeating assassins.
Golden Lotus strike, becoming Golden Lotus blossom with its + damage also now affecting all adjacent foes. and getting a recharge buff to a lower number.
And doing + damage or energy if it follows a dual attack
PvE assassin's would be happy and with a lower recharge, PvP sin's would be happy because they have a quick recharging E-management.
First killing IAS,DP promotes the old assassin's of after Factions.
The potency of SP needs a hit not the recharge.
Giving lead attacks more clauses such as Leaping doing more damage to crippled foes
And them all doing more for hitting after a dual attack.
works nicely.
Then you give sin's the utility buff that makes them more then just a warrior whos in a chain.
X Cytherea X
Quote:
Yes, it takes no skill to shadow step to the target.It hardly takes any skill apart from basic ingame knowledge to know when to execute your chain.
And no, it takes hardly any skill to press 23456 after 1.
It doesn't take any skill apart from basic ingame knowledge to not get killed afterwards.
you repeat that "no skill" argument over and over. let me focus on it for a moment. let's say hypothetically you take the best guild wars player in the world, one who plays monk, ranger, warrior, all classes... one who knows every skill in the game like the back of his hand... and make him play sin.
he would STILL be pressing 123456, because it is THE best way to achieve a significant goal: to kill something. does that mean he is any less skilled? of course not. he still has full awareness of the battlefield, targets of opportunity, when he's in trouble, when he's blind or hexed, time to gank the base, time to pull back to the stand, etc. he still has all his advanced knowledge of the game.
does the build he's currently playing take less skill? well if you argue that he doesnt think about positioning, healing his teammates, interrupting a critical spell, hindering melee, etc. you might say yes.
but the thing is, he doesnt HAVE to do ANY of that. why would you want to insert these so-called "skills" into the gameplay of a class when it is outside his paradigm? why should we ENFORCE that kills should ONLY be made in a certain way, fulfilling such deep tactical criteria for it to be considered acceptable?
you win guild wars by killing, strip away everything else, the shutdown, the antimelee, the linebacking, all that shit. at its core, you win guild wars by killing. you kill by dealing damage, creating opportunities to deal that damage and bypassing things that prevent you from dealing that damage. that is what the sin does. STRIP AWAY ALL THE SHIT and you are left with that simple task. hence the straightforward nature of the sin; to get to the ultimate goal, all the shit has been stripped. you want to add some, just to adhere to your one-sided perception of skill? his purpose is achieved by a consecutive sequence of keys. but is it so intrinsically wrong? ANET didnt think so. at least when they created it. and neither do i and many others.
you claim that the class paradigm is flawed, that instagib is imbalanced, but is it really? or is your brain simply infatuated with the notion that one must jump through hoops, in unison, holding hands with 7 other people, for every goddamn death? that makes for a very boring game.
Quote:
I'm sorry. |
Bringing down targets before breaking point is okay, I guess, if implemented correctly.
you guess? of course it is! it's not just okay, it's an absolute necessity! for the game to be dynamic, unpredictable. to break up the monotony of "okay the monk is diverted...ok fake spike this guy...tab to this guy...shatter the prots...all 5 players unload all your damage now!...it's still alive, chase it!....im blind, im blind!" OH SHUT THE HELL UP id rather instagib it right here, right now! sometimes you NEED some guy out of the picture IMMEDIATELY, from a big red bar into nothingness. so you FORCE the friggin kill with a 123456. how would YOU "implement it correctly"? there is NO other way than HUGE damage, opening an opportunity to apply that damage , and bypassing things that hinder that damage. it just so happens that the logical way to arrange this is by chronological order on your number keys. im just saying my point of view, i can tell by your single-minded parroting of the same crap that you are beyond all hope of seeing the light.
ensoriki
Oh shit big words
paradigm =P Heres the thing. The sin isn't a healer, He could serve as a bit better utility if Heart of shadow was freaking target ally...but nooo its a freaking ROF without the prot >.> its not bad. Cept for recharge lulz. The diverse affects of the game for sins Come from shadow steps and utility. Sins have shit utility So they are left with Daggers and Shadow Steps, there is nothing else for them. Because izzy doesn't want to balance a class he just wants to nerf it. And if you think thats okay, you seem to ignore the word Balance.
LaserLight
Hm hm, indeed. LightningHell is one of the few guys in this thread I actually pay attention to
 .Anyways. You mention Thumpers as an example of a semi-viable frontline threat at low AL, which is a good point. However, it's not a flawless one, first of all because Thumpers are a largely outdated build which aren't typically seen on the modern battlefield. They're definitely a good second-tier build, but I would really, really hate to see Assassins in their entirety relegated to the second tier. Second of all, Thumpers worked because they were essentially two characters in one - or at least a character and a half. Their pets were surprisingly hard to kill and could output enough damage to make them a nuisance, while also fueling the Thumper's heavy battery of knockdowns. That is really the key though, isn't it: the Thumper was, and as far as I know still is, the quickest and steadiest source of repeated KD in the game. Even a hammer Warrior couldn't put out the knockdowns a Thumper could without running a bad gimmick, which made the Thumper better at that job than a Warrior. It still is, really, but nobody uses it because that sort of pressure is no longer worth it on a 70AL character. In order for that model to work on the Assassin, you would need significantly heavier amounts of powerful disruptive abilities. The Thumper is a KD machine who brings an 80AL immune-to-DP wall with attack capabilities with him on the field for the same AL, with a good bit more tactical flexibility than even an Assassin modified the way Moriz suggests, and nobody uses them. Admittedly, Steps are typically more desirable than pets, but I wish like hell I had 80AL and was immune to DP. Hell, if I could use the skills myself I'd actually greatly enjoy playing a Dire Wolf without any Rangers involved. Heh...but then, I like wolves anyways. Anyways. You talk about the Assassin trading any real damage capability - and I see half a health bar at max as no real damage, that's one Word of Healing away from spike-never-happened - for disruption abilities, but I think you underestimate the amount of disruptive power required to make that trade worthwhile. I'd be willing to take that trade, gladly in all reality, but I'm not trading my kill ability - which is all I've got right now - for a short-recharge, low-damage combo that inconveniences the enemy. Or one that hinders him, or considerably degrades him. I'm talking combo stacks here that so deflate someone that they're basically totally unusable until they're cleared off, disruption to the point of making the other guy wish he'd just been instagibbed instead, disruption that eats half a Monk's Energy bar to clear up. Now, before people scream, let me explain why I feel that this is the only acceptable trade-off for an Assassin. Currently, Assassins are used because they can kill someone dead in seconds. And being realistic...being a corpse on the ground is the most surefire way I know to disrupt someone. The issue is that this corpse generation ability is considered broke as all hell by the PvP guys, largely because it requires less skill than playing anyone else. I flat refuse to say no skill, because as much as most of the anti-Sin guys say otherwise...that "basic in-game knowledge" required to play an Assassin to its fullest potential is not a gimme. I've met great bleeding hordes of great bleeding idiots who think I'm the best Assassin they've ever seen because I understand kiting, positional control, target priority and all that other crap that all the top players take for granted, and which is absolutely required to stop the Assassin from swiftly becoming that highly-disrupted corpse I was originally talking about. Anyone who played with typical PuG-Assassins on Factions' release knows exactly what I'm talking about. Anyways. Like I said, killing someone is the only guaranteed way I know of to totally shut them down. Currently, my Assassin can do that, as well as dole out a not-inconsiderable spate of more standard disruption for anyone that survives the spike, if I do it right but fail my attack anyways. A typical Sin bar leaves, at the least, Poison and Deep Wound, and will often saddle the poor schmuck on the other side with a debilitating Hex or two. If the target survives, then they have that little pile of ugly to deal with before they're back at full spec. Let's call this model the Tremendous Rectum-Wrecking Damage + Mild Disruption model. It's currently the standard for Assassins, a standard which people want gone. However, unlike the majority who believe that Assassins (and usually every profession introduced after Prophecies in general with the possible exception of Ritualist) should just sorta shrivel up and disappear entirely...Laser wants to keep his girl at the same comparative efficacy she's at now. Mild Damage + Mild Disruption means Laser joins the multitude of pissed-off people who let their sin molder while they work on something that can actually win fights. Mild Damage + Heavy Disruption is better...but Mesmers deal heavy disruption, and they don't have to extend into the frontline and tax their healers' resources to do it. Nor are they limited to a two-handed melee weapon for mods or a rigid combo chain system. No...if you want Tremendous Rectum-Wrecking Damage gone, then the only way you'll get it and not piss off every Assassin player in existence is to give Assassins Tremendous Rectum-Wrecking Disruption + Mild Damage in return. if I'm only dealing a couple hundred damage tops with my skill chain, then I want that damage to be partnered with Deep Wound and three covers, a knockdown, and either some form of truly debilitating, as opposed to simply annoying, Hex or some skill lockdowns. I want whoever I hit to be crying into his coffee because he's been slapped upside the head with such a dizzying array of non-fatal badness that he can barely make out his screen, let alone what's happening in it. I want that man disabled, unable to do anything more than limp back to his rear area while healers frantically try and pull all that crap off him. Why? First of all, because it would be the most amazingly comical thing I've ever done in Guild Wars save point and laugh at my almost-homophobic friend on April Fool's Day. But my personal evil mirth aside...tell me, will anything less truly be a fair trade? The Assassin's job is to take out his target; any other job is done better by either a Warrior or a Mesmer, or possibly a sufficiently resourceful Ranger. Inconvenienced doesn't work. Disrupted doesn't work. Heavily debilitated doesn't work. The only thing that makes the trade worth it is the ability to completely disable someone and render them essentially worthless until they've been cleaned up. Even then, Assassins lose a lot of viability in the trade-off, because the one thing a good Monk can't clean off someone in seconds is DP. However, an Assassin able to force that kind of intense, character-disabling disruption on someone does have a place in a high-level team, I think, because not only can it wreck someone's rectum long enough to open a brief window of opportunity, it also accelerates the enemy's attrition. It brings the enemy that much closer to their breaking point because it'd, optimally, take more than five or ten Energy to clear someone of that sort of whammy. Considerable resources would have to be expended to get that man back on his feet, shortening the amount of time one has to whack away at the wall before it crumbles and stuff starts actually happening. Much like the current Assassin's ability to inflict DP before the breaking point also hastens the arrival of that breaking point, by reducing the maximum resources available to the enemy. Mesmers, as far as I've seen, disrupt differently, forcing and/or punishing skill usage, generally making themselves a tremendous pain in the aforementioned rectum, but not truly attriting the enemy, save for the enemy's attempts to shut said Mesmer up. The Assassin would be different. Not a damage threat, at least not to a team without DP, but a serious threat to a team's long-term viability, forcing resource expenditure much like the classic Cripshots did - by forcing enemy healers to play catch-up to way too gadzooking much disruption. Save that instead of spreading that disruption around, as did a Cripshot, the Assassin would be focusing it all on one guy, forcing clean-up efforts because that guy is both worthless and dangerously vulnerable to follow-up attacks until he's healthy again. Not only that, but this isn't even counting the resources an enemy expends trying to preemptively protect against this sort of tactic or resources expended trying to make the blasted Assassin go away so they don't have to wipe away sprees of badness every twelve seconds. That sort of Assassin I'd play, and happily. The sort of Assassin Moriz wants, I'd shoot. The sort of Assassin Shuuda wants, I'd shoot more than once, then piss on the corpse before burying it in a salted field (do NOT mess with Laser's Steps, man...). Hm hm...and I imagine the sort of Assassin I want, everyone else in the thread would shoot. But, again, I've written too much, and need to shut up. Later all. *EDIT* Missed all the people between me and Lightning's last post, but honestly? None of them said anything hugely important, and most of them were jerks about it. So I'ma gonna ignore them myself. Seriously guys...you're going more harm than good trying to out-flame the sin detractors -_- X Cytherea X
LaserLight dude, i wont settle for mild damage at all, no matter how rectum-wrecking the disruption is. 2 and 1/2 cycles of a combo (which is assumed to be fast-recharging) = dead (even with some healing), tops, might be somewhat acceptable.
LaserLight
Cytherea, two run-throughs of a typical Warr adren spike will put most people in the dirt. Or rather, two Warrs on a single run-through each. I very highly doubt an Assassin three-hit strike can't manage to stay at least at parity with a two-hit adrenal axe shot.
I'd also like you to ponder the following for a moment: Poison/Bleed, Burn, Deep Wound, KD, Cripple/Hexsnare, hex-based heavy debuff/skill lockdown, delivered with about five skills in the space of two or three, four tops, seconds, from a single character. Every fifteen seconds or less, preferably, though I doubt they'll give us those nice short recharges people are trying to bribe us with if we're wrecking that much rectum. Apply it to your average anybody and ask yerself how effective they're going to be for a while. Hm hm, when I say rectum-wrecking disruption, I mean it. Just to get that straight before I actually sleep for the...morning
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
|
Quote:
he would STILL be pressing 123456, because it is THE best way to achieve a significant goal: to kill something. does that mean he is any less skilled? of course not. he still has full awareness of the battlefield, targets of opportunity, when he's in trouble, when he's blind or hexed, time to gank the base, time to pull back to the stand, etc. he still has all his advanced knowledge of the game.
does the build he's currently playing take less skill? well if you argue that he doesnt think about positioning, healing his teammates, interrupting a critical spell, hindering melee, etc. you might say yes.
I tried playing 'sin once. I got annoyed by its inflexibility. I imagine many other players, including top tier ones, feel the same.
Quote: but the thing is, he doesnt HAVE to do ANY of that. why would you want to insert these so-called "skills" into the gameplay of a class when it is outside his paradigm? why should we ENFORCE that kills should ONLY be made in a certain way, fulfilling such deep tactical criteria for it to be considered acceptable? Pretty much. I don't see how letting a character that requires the absolute minimum of ingame skill into higher level play is good. Yes, he doesn't have to do ANY of that. This is exactly why we want to change the class.
Quote: you win guild wars by killing, strip away everything else, the shutdown, the antimelee, the linebacking, all that shit. at its core, you win guild wars by killing. you kill by dealing damage, creating opportunities to deal that damage and bypassing things that prevent you from dealing that damage. that is what the sin does. STRIP AWAY ALL THE SHIT and you are left with that simple task. hence the straightforward nature of the sin; to get to the ultimate goal, all the shit has been stripped. you want to add some, just to adhere to your one-sided perception of skill? his purpose is achieved by a consecutive sequence of keys. but is it so intrinsically wrong? ANET didnt think so. at least when they created it. and neither do i and many others. I quote another post. It may not have any relevance, but it might answer the question.
Quote: you claim that the class paradigm is flawed, that instagib is imbalanced, but it is really? or is your brain simply infatuated with the notion that one must jump through hoops, in unison, holding hands with 7 other people, for every goddamn death? that makes for a very boring game. I say yes.
Guild Wars PvP is primarily based around team-based strategies and skills. Every character supports and strengthens the other. The Assassin is flawed, when in such an environment.
]quote]you guess? of course it is! it's not just okay, it's an absolute necessity! for the game to be dynamic, unpredictable. to break up the monotony of "okay the monk is diverted...ok fake spike this guy...tab to this guy...shatter the prots...all 5 players unload all your damage now!...it's still alive, chase it!....im blind, im blind!" OH SHUT THE HELL UP id rather instagib it right here, right now! [/quote]
And you ask why we want to remove such a mechanic from the game...?
Quote: sometimes you NEED some guy out of the picture IMMEDIATELY, from a big red bar into nothingness. so you FORCE the friggin kill with a 123456. how would YOU "implement it correctly"? there is NO other way than HUGE damage, opening an opportunity to apply that damage , and bypassing things that hinder that damage. it just so happens that the logical way to arrange this is by chronological order on your number keys. If you NEED some guy of of the picture IMMEDIATELY, you would probably coordinate a spike between your frontline and your midline.
Again, I ask, why do you ask why we want to remove such a mechanic from the game?
Quote: im just saying my point of view, i can tell by your single-minded parroting of the same crap that you are beyond all hope of seeing the light. Likewise.
You seem to like the single-mindedness of the gameplay the Assassin offers. Pray tell, have you tried running a Warrior in high tier play, or indeed any other class, and then try run an Assassin?
Quote: Originally Posted by ensoriki Shadow steps give a tactical advange to the assassin, while you may argue it requires no foresight or intelligence to positioning. This is false. Personally, it requires basic foresight and intelligence of the game. It does not require any positioning skill. I mean, is "within spellcasting radius" that small...?
While an idiot may shadow step nilly willy, quite a few people do think about what they're doing before they take that light speed step. Everybody does. That doesn't contradict shadow stepping as a mechanic that removes positioning from play.
Every Shadow Step in the game has a suitable recharge or energy cost except for augury of death, which is a CRAP ASS shadow step and truly just a DW for spell casters. I agree. Shadow stepping has such huge drawbacks simply because it is too strong.
The only shadow steps that naturally allow you to go and return are
Shadow meld (sexy)
and Aura of displacement. Shadow Walk...
Both elite, Shadow meld being a defensive shadow step, AoD being a hybrid of offense and defense. Bolded.
Quote: Originally Posted by LaserLight Anyways. You mention Thumpers as an example of a semi-viable frontline threat at low AL, which is a good point. However, it's not a flawless one, first of all because Thumpers are a largely outdated build which aren't typically seen on the modern battlefield. They're definitely a good second-tier build, but I would really, really hate to see Assassins in their entirety relegated to the second tier. Well, they're outdated, yes...but it does prove that something 70AL can actually not explode in the face of the enemy.
Quote: Second of all, Thumpers worked because they were essentially two characters in one - or at least a character and a half. Their pets were surprisingly hard to kill and could output enough damage to make them a nuisance, while also fueling the Thumper's heavy battery of knockdowns. That is really the key though, isn't it: the Thumper was, and as far as I know still is, the quickest and steadiest source of repeated KD in the game. Even a hammer Warrior couldn't put out the knockdowns a Thumper could without running a bad gimmick, which made the Thumper better at that job than a Warrior. It still is, really, but nobody uses it because that sort of pressure is no longer worth it on a 70AL character. I agree.
Quote: In order for that model to work on the Assassin, you would need significantly heavier amounts of powerful disruptive abilities. The Thumper is a KD machine who brings an 80AL immune-to-DP wall with attack capabilities with him on the field for the same AL, with a good bit more tactical flexibility than even an Assassin modified the way Moriz suggests, and nobody uses them. Admittedly, Steps are typically more desirable than pets, but I wish like hell I had 80AL and was immune to DP. Hell, if I could use the skills myself I'd actually greatly enjoy playing a Dire Wolf without any Rangers involved. Heh...but then, I like wolves anyways. The "tactical flexibility" is actually not that great at the time of thumpers, since your pet only attacked whoever you attacked.
Quote: Anyways. You talk about the Assassin trading any real damage capability - and I see half a health bar at max as no real damage, that's one Word of Healing away from spike-never-happened - for disruption abilities, but I think you underestimate the amount of disruptive power required to make that trade worthwhile. I'd be willing to take that trade, gladly in all reality, but I'm not trading my kill ability - which is all I've got right now - for a short-recharge, low-damage combo that inconveniences the enemy. Or one that hinders him, or considerably degrades him. I'm talking combo stacks here that so deflate someone that they're basically totally unusable until they're cleared off, disruption to the point of making the other guy wish he'd just been instagibbed instead, disruption that eats half a Monk's Energy bar to clear up. Now, before people scream, let me explain why I feel that this is the only acceptable trade-off for an Assassin. The only actual drawback to this new change would be you'd have to pair up with a teammate, actually. It doesn't really require any more ingame perspective or additional skills, but it makes the Assassin more team-based.
Which is a good thing.
I don't mind how strong the disruption is, as long as it's in moderation.
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Currently, Assassins are used because they can kill someone dead in seconds. And being realistic...being a corpse on the ground is the most surefire way I know to disrupt someone. Agreed. The issue is that this corpse generation ability is considered broke as all hell by the PvP guys, largely because it requires less skill than playing anyone else. I flat refuse to say no skill, because as much as most of the anti-Sin guys say otherwise Don't take whatever they say at face value...most of them actually mean "no skill other than the basic requirements of playing the game". They just don't bother typing that...that "basic in-game knowledge" required to play an Assassin to its fullest potential is not a gimme. I've met great bleeding hordes of great bleeding idiots who think I'm the best Assassin they've ever seen because I understand kiting, positional control, target priority and all that other crap that all the top players take for granted, and which is absolutely required to stop the Assassin from swiftly becoming that highly-disrupted corpse I was originally talking about. Anyone who played with typical PuG-Assassins on Factions' release knows exactly what I'm talking about.
I guess one could argue that since Assassins do not require any more skill than the absolute basics, they rely on those basics more. However, take into account that most, if not all, relevant balance changes are based off top-tier PvP, and not idiots who think they are t3h 1337z because they can echo mending. Quote:
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