meh. guess your right - ive not been on my sin lately lol
Just run the
Premade pvp build somewhere (add Disrupting dagger)
You'll see its rather lack luster.(the combo itself)
Add flourish or moebius and it still won't be good, just average.
I tried so many ways to make this combo really good.
Brutal Weapon = failed
Splinter weapon = Still not good
Nightmare weapon = Not worth it sorry.
Vital weapon =>.> doesnt help the combo but whatever
Enduring toxin = lol no
Locust fury = >.> Sure if you want to be auto attacking >.>
Way of the assassin = MUST crit on each hit to be worth its salt.
Hidden caltrops = Still not up to par.
Bulls strike = >.> Weak sauce
Shock = Lack of energy, TF is a energy drainer, Shock doesnt help.
BEguiling haze = Energy crys.
Seeping wound = ...no.
Flourish = Usable, e-management
Moebius = Usable, no e-management.
Disrupting dagger = God, builds usable not great though
Disrupting stab = God, above
Distracting Blow = Close to god, see above
Mark of instability = Wants to be like god, see above...just not as good as above
Conjures = see brutal weapon
Crippling dagger= Usable, for Jungle strike trigger
All in all, The pre-made build generally flops.
using Unsuspecting CD (or hidden caltrops) Jungle, TF still aint great.
Thats all im saying =P
LightningHell
(????????????)???
Join Date: Aug 2005
Hong Kong
Guildless
Mo/
03 Dec 2007 at 04:46 - 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarissa F
Because people think of sins the way they think of warriors. Judging from this thread, they think that way in pvp, as well. They don't know how to handle enchants or do anti-melee, anything a three-month mesmer can do. They want to be able to do it all themselves, and if they can't, they want to make it so the sin can't do it's role. Most of those who know what a sin is "supposed" to be aren't crying, but a lot of warrior wannabes are.
If you don't see how they are designed badly, you know what a sin was made for. Another pointless thread about wanting a class to be what it's not, and Anet nerfing it because they cried.
Kindly note that most of the people complaining aren't playing Warrior.
And remembering the previous post I was going to say I was going to edit afterwards...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserlight
The Assassin would be different. Not a damage threat, at least not to a team without DP, but a serious threat to a team's long-term viability, forcing resource expenditure much like the classic Cripshots did - by forcing enemy healers to play catch-up to way too gadzooking much disruption. Save that instead of spreading that disruption around, as did a Cripshot, the Assassin would be focusing it all on one guy, forcing clean-up efforts because that guy is both worthless and dangerously vulnerable to follow-up attacks until he's healthy again. Not only that, but this isn't even counting the resources an enemy expends trying to preemptively protect against this sort of tactic or resources expended trying to make the blasted Assassin go away so they don't have to wipe away sprees of badness every twelve seconds.
This model of the Assassin is almost certainly worse than the current model of the Assassin.
The current Assassin is a character that gets instant kills on single characters on recharge.
The Assassin you are suggesting is a character that disables single characters badly on recharge.
The only benefit of this over the original Assassin would be the ability to make the opponent expend a large amount of resources to cope with such an ability - but a Warrior can do that as a threat, and more.
Being able to spread less potent but quick-recharging, thus being able to constantly switch targets and respond to different stimuli, would be more favorable (imo), as this would actually allow the Assassin to fulfill multiple roles on demand, while retaining a damage potential.
I'd suggest a model of an Assassin that has quick (10s/less) recharging, basic (cripple, etc), shutdown and other miscellanous utility within that range, along with a midway-powerful combo (think 300-350 damage per 3-hit combo). Basically, an Assassin that is adept at creating potential gaps in the opponent, creating opportunities and plays, and being able to respond and capitalize on such opportunities and plays.
Of course, I'm reiterating what I'm saying before.
Ashe.
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2007
Tales Of Glory[ePiC]
Rt/
03 Dec 2007 at 04:47 - 243
There's nothing wrong with assassins, there are just so many bad ones running around that they are stereotyped as being bad by the Guildwars community.
Xue Fang
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2007
03 Dec 2007 at 04:50 - 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashe.
There's nothing wrong with assassins, there are just so many bad ones running around that they are stereotyped as being bad by the Guildwars community.
Like those Assassins that run Restful Breeze @ 0 spec in AB...
LaserLight
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
La La Land
[NOVA]
A/
03 Dec 2007 at 09:22 - 245
The real problem I see with the model you’re suggesting, Lightning, is that it has absolutely nothing to do with Assassins (yes yes, I know, “hooray death-to-instagib!”, shaddap and lemme talk), and very little like something you’d call someone an Assassin for being able to do. Ye’re reinventing the class in a different direction altogether than what it stands as now, not a more generally acceptable tangent of the direction it’s already going. And that strikes me as a dangerous thing to do, given that most Assassin players...well, like Assassins.
If I’ve got this right, you want Assassins to be…well, not Assassins. The class, after revision, would basically be running around the edges of a battle, trying to avoid getting squashed because they’re basically unarmored, needling people frequently and generally making a nuisance of themselves with various disruption attacks and such that they currently don’t have. Thing is, Mesmers do that sort of work just fine without having to get themselves killed in the front line or having to squeal to a Monk when they get Blinded/Crippled/Weakened/Whatevered. They may not do it as rapidly as you’re suggesting an Assassin should, but they also tend to do it more reliably and with greater effect, because Mesmers as a class were concepted, from the very start, to do that job.
Let’s face it – an Assassin running around with a low-damage, low-disruption combo in a fight, even one enough interrupts/lockdowns/knockdowns to make the GvG elites happy that they’ve successfully mollified the Assassin masses before they go back to their Warriors, is going to be largely ignored, mostly because it’s very ignorable. Especially if the other plans to make Assassins vanish – namely the destruction of Shadow Steps – goes through. Don’t get me wrong, I’d greatly enjoy having more options available to me as an Assassin, but again let’s face the facts here – I’d prefer keeping my Assassin as a viable character if at all possible. Just about everyone else in Guild Wars, it seems, would like to see Assassins as viable characters as well – but if that turns out to be too hard, you’ll all be perfectly happy if Anet just nerfs them into total uselessness and/or deletes them from the game entirely, which makes arguing the case very, very hard. I'm trying to argue saving the class; you guys are trying to balance the game. The very thought that Steps need to go frightens me, because it's a heavy indication that at heart, the people I'm arguing with don't care what happens to this class, so long as it stops killing people. And that sucks a lot of ass.
Anyways. I don’t really buy that this sort of rapid light-striker you’re talking about is worth bringing into a team over a properly done Mesmer. Not if all it does are ignorable little minispikes and a small handful of conditions. Yeah, it may do them faster, but the sort of rampant hard disruption you’re talking about would be pretty difficult to retroactively introduce to the class, and even if it wasn’t Mesmers are better at it anyways. If I’ve got yer model right, and I admit I likely don’t, but if I do…ye’re basically talking about turning the entirety of the Assassin class into what amounts to a Cripshot Ranger, save with less ability to spread Conditions around.
Nobody really uses Cripshots anymore that I can see, though I haven’t had a chance to do a ton of observing recently. They’re very good at what they do, but what they do is largely taken up by Hydromancers these days. Hexes tend to be a bit harder to remove than Conditions, and Hydromancers can deal damage over an area while they’re at it. And, again, they aren’t vulnerable to antimelee counters or exposed to the dangers of the frontline to do their job.
Am I wrong?
LightningHell
(????????????)???
Join Date: Aug 2005
Hong Kong
Guildless
Mo/
03 Dec 2007 at 11:27 - 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
The real problem I see with the model you’re suggesting, Lightning, is that it has absolutely nothing to do with Assassins (yes yes, I know, “hooray death-to-instagib!”, shaddap and lemme talk), and very little like something you’d call someone an Assassin for being able to do. Ye’re reinventing the class in a different direction altogether than what it stands as now, not a more generally acceptable tangent of the direction it’s already going. And that strikes me as a dangerous thing to do, given that most Assassin players...well, like Assassins.
I'd say you're right for this part. The problem with my model would be the lack of relation to actual assassinations, although you could easily fit that in. One could easily take the disruption, then capitalizing on such as "assassination".
Quote:
If I’ve got this right, you want Assassins to be…well, not Assassins. The class, after revision, would basically be running around the edges of a battle, trying to avoid getting squashed because they’re basically unarmored, needling people frequently and generally making a nuisance of themselves with various disruption attacks and such that they currently don’t have. Thing is, Mesmers do that sort of work just fine without having to get themselves killed in the front line or having to squeal to a Monk when they get Blinded/Crippled/Weakened/Whatevered. They may not do it as rapidly as you’re suggesting an Assassin should, but they also tend to do it more reliably and with greater effect, because Mesmers as a class were concepted, from the very start, to do that job.
I wouldn't mind Assassin defensive skills to be buffed, and I think
Quote:
Let’s face it – an Assassin running around with a low-damage, low-disruption combo in a fight, even one enough interrupts/lockdowns/knockdowns to make the GvG elites happy that they’ve successfully mollified the Assassin masses before they go back to their Warriors, is going to be largely ignored, mostly because it’s very ignorable. Especially if the other plans to make Assassins vanish – namely the destruction of Shadow Steps – goes through.
I quoted this bit so that I could respond to this first.
Please be aware that such interrupts/lockdowns/knockdowns are extremely, extremely powerful. I wouldn't hesitate trying to take an utilitarian Assassin into a GvG game, as it'd be not unlike taking a character mes effects (when I say mes effects, I mean anything that does not contribute directly to team survival or damage, but instead creates possibilities, etc) that can actually be a serious damage threat. If they're made by a sufficiently bright person, they could ensure that they don't overlap with Rangers and Mesmer effects. I think you're underestimating the power of disruption in PvP, although in PvE it's a nonexistent issue because you're better off justkilling them anyway except in rare cases.
So in terms of usability, the Assassin would actually be more viable and attractive to players, as it packs quite a punch if needed, and has other traits that make it worth its slot.
And I don't think Shadow Stepping needs to go - it may be an undesirable mechanic, but I think having it go after two years is a bit too big of a shift of paradigm. Besides, it's kinda what makes them different from other melee classes, and if the utilitarian Assassin changes do go through you might even see Steps getting buffed a bit for survivability. It wouldn't be so bad now that combos no longer instagib.
Quote:
Don’t get me wrong, I’d greatly enjoy having more options available to me as an Assassin, but again let’s face the facts here – I’d prefer keeping my Assassin as a viable character if at all possible. Just about everyone else in Guild Wars, it seems, would like to see Assassins as viable characters as well – but if that turns out to be too hard, you’ll all be perfectly happy if Anet just nerfs them into total uselessness and/or deletes them from the game entirely, which makes arguing the case very, very hard. I'm trying to argue saving the class; you guys are trying to balance the game. The very thought that Steps need to go frightens me, because it's a heavy indication that at heart, the people I'm arguing with don't care what happens to this class, so long as it stops killing people. And that sucks a lot of ass.
See above.
Quote:
Anyways. I don’t really buy that this sort of rapid light-striker you’re talking about is worth bringing into a team over a properly done Mesmer. Not if all it does are ignorable little minispikes and a small handful of conditions. Yeah, it may do them faster, but the sort of rampant hard disruption you’re talking about would be pretty difficult to retroactively introduce to the class, and even if it wasn’t Mesmers are better at it anyways. If I’ve got yer model right, and I admit I likely don’t, but if I do…ye’re basically talking about turning the entirety of the Assassin class into what amounts to a Cripshot Ranger, save with less ability to spread Conditions around.
A Cripshot that has KDs and is half range, as well as better support/main spikes?
Although, I agree that it's very hard to retroactively introduce them.
Quote:
Nobody really uses Cripshots anymore that I can see, though I haven’t had a chance to do a ton of observing recently. They’re very good at what they do, but what they do is largely taken up by Hydromancers these days. Hexes tend to be a bit harder to remove than Conditions, and Hydromancers can deal damage over an area while they’re at it. And, again, they aren’t vulnerable to antimelee counters or exposed to the dangers of the frontline to do their job.
I don't think, at any point of time after the template Ranger bar was made, was a time where it was totally and completely dropped. After Cripshot, people fit Broadhead Arrow on the bars, Burning Arrow, etc. And now we're still back to Cripshot. And water eles were not taken for their damage in the stand, no. Deep Freeze was only there for the huge AoE of 10-second-snaring.
Anyways.
Any Ranger's main objective is to 1) spread poison, and 2) interrupt key skills as to create windows of opportunities and/or reduce enemy team efficiency. The Cripshot can additionally cripple people with a high level of efficiency. All Ranger bars also have a high level of self sufficiency, which allows for an extremely good split character.
A Mesmer's current main objective is to disable key skills, enchant strips, assist spikes, etc.
You could have the Assassin get mini one-sided Blackouts that are at touch range, Clumsiness effects with a KD, quick recharging armor debuffs. Possibilities are kinda endless, and you could get relatively little overlap.
And I'm also thinking you're making the mid-frontline threat to be too large. I'm not really asking for the Assassin to consistently overextend and stay in the frontline like a Warrior.
Quote:
Am I wrong?
Kinda, yes. But you've got the general gist, albeit a very underpowered version.
On retrospect, it's kinda pointless to ask for changes on the Assassins, as it's already what, a year and a half or so? since PvPers started complaining about game balance in relation to Assassins. It's very unlikely that ANet will change the Assassin.
ensoriki
Forge Runner
Join Date: Aug 2006
Canada bro.
A/D
03 Dec 2007 at 12:03 - 247
Lol. Nothing's going to make L-O-D viable when its damage is so low, not only that the damage is so inconsistent with its high recharges, out of the 3 melee classes assassins have the highest recharges, Using L-O-D your not going to get a kill and with those high recharges your still down, Might as well go O-D-O-D and loose some utility, Down time is pretty damn much the same, but your going to kill.
Shadow steps aren't a problem.
Shadow steps cannot kill, they just serve as utility. Considering no shadow step is in a primary attribute, any one has access to them and you do not need a high point distribution to use them. Im not just trying to say "Oh there balanced cus anyone can use em" . Shadow Steps are utility, take ride the lightning and take its damage away and make it deal blind, you've got a shadow step. No shadow step does damage >.> Thats what seperates the lightning riders >.> from the assassins =P. Hell its possible to do a Ride the Lightning sin considering most people who bitch about shadow stepping say this
"leave Ride the lightning alone...uh..cus it has a cool name" Do you not see the BS there?
Hopefully izzy can scrap up another large January (or was it feb) Skill balance like he did at the beginning of this year. Remember that when we were to test these skills and put feedback?
Many changes the assassin can need can happen now.
3 skills changed every 2 weeks or so can get us somewhere.
Changing Shadow steps isn't going to resolve in anything but gimping a class.
Ashe.
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2007
Tales Of Glory[ePiC]
Rt/
03 Dec 2007 at 13:28 - 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue Fang
Like those Assassins that run Restful Breeze @ 0 spec in AB...
Is that why I carried us to victory all those times?
crossound
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Mar 2006
Eastern USA
03 Dec 2007 at 13:43 - 249
Almost on any class you have ways to stop being instagib. Maybe most people just lack quick reflexes. Almost all Instagib builds that existed have been nerfed pretty bad. Look in random arenas for one before the big nerf you saw assassins everywhere now you see a lot less.
If anything its mostly hammer warriors now which is what anet wants. Now everyone is complaining about linebackers in ra lol?
If you honestly ask me maybe they should increase all caster classes AL to 65 for a test to see if people quit complaining.
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
03 Dec 2007 at 17:04 - 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashe.
There's nothing wrong with assassins, there are just so many bad ones running around that they are stereotyped as being bad by the Guildwars community.
no....its because alot of the builds require the knowledge of 12345678 to gain a spike.
very rare i see a non instagib ran tbh...
fireflyry
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jan 2007
New Zealand
A/D
03 Dec 2007 at 17:53 - 251
There are bad players in every class.
2 minutes in RA or AB will teach you that.
ensoriki
Forge Runner
Join Date: Aug 2006
Canada bro.
A/D
03 Dec 2007 at 18:31 - 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
no....its because alot of the builds require the knowledge of 12345678 to gain a spike. very rare i see a non instagib ran tbh...
Why the hell would you see a non-instagib build? Generally any other build an assassin uses sucks...generally (huggles skill)
Also its not even true that a lot of the sin builds are instagib.
Its only a couple, any other instagib is pretty much just a variation of that 1 insta combo.
So really you have caster sin
and insta gib sin with a hex
instagib without a hex (uncommon)
So 3 insta gib builds. if you look around you just see variants of some skills, but the core is the exact same.
Remember before BLS change to lead?
You'd see over 9000 hex builds all claiming to be different...but what was the combo?
BLS TF BSS BOS or something similar like Horns replacing TF or BoS
or Tf replaced with horns and impale added >.>
The real things that actually gave those builds claiming to be "unique" their originality was the damn hex surrounding the build >.>
How can you say theres a lot of Instagib sin builds when really theres 3.
And they really only existed once nightfall came (Shows you wtf damage nightfall did)
_________
Anyways My next statement short and sweet.
L-O-D will forever suck until recharge and damage (or conditional effects) are changed.
Next point.
Lead attacks SHOULD have a clause for following a dual attack. This is not hard to implement and could take izzy about 2 weeks to think about and implement, perhaps even less time!
Its fine if off-hands do not require leads, but they should all be much weaker when they don't. For current lead skippers, they will have to get small tweaks to be able to fit in the new implimentation. GPS = damage nerf but now causes aoe burning if it follows a Lead IMO (or just burning =P)
More skills should be 1/2 second or 1/4 (well there is no 1/4 right now) activation.
Perfect example is disrupting stab, had this been 1/2 or 1/4 using it would be much easier, the same should follow with the warrior skill distracting blow, just to be fair.
Final point, recharges.
From what I can see using skills such as moebius/Flourish and Assassin's promise to see how assassins benefit from lower recharge skills.
Lead attack recharges should vary from 1-5 recharge at most IMO, jagged strike being the only 1 recharge skill.
Off-hands recharges should vary from 3-6 recharge
And Duals being 2-12 or so DB being the only 2 second dual attack.
Now skills I think should be tweaked with those ideas in mind
[card]Golden Phoenix Strike[/card] Off-Hand Attack. If you are not under the effects of an Enchantment, this skill misses. If it hits, Golden Phoenix Strike deals +5...19...26 damage. If this follows a lead attack you inflict burning (perhaps to all adjacent foes) for 1....3...4 seconds. Recharge 6.
[card]Desperate strike[/card]Lead Attack. If you have less than 50...74...80% Health, you deal +15...51...60 damage.If this follows a dual attack you gain 5...30....40 health..
1/2c 5 recharge
[card]Twisting Fangs[/card]Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, Twisting Fangs strikes for +10...18...20 damage and struck foe suffers from Bleeding and Deep Wound for 5...17...20 seconds.
10 recharge I guess.
[card]Unsuspecting Strike[/card]Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +19...30...33 damage. If your target was above 90% Health you deal an additional 15...63...75 damage. If this follows a dual attack you gain +3....6...11 energy
[card]Black Lotus Strike[/card] Rename Black Lotus Blossom
Lead Attack. If it hits, Black Lotus Strike strikes for +5...17...25 damage. If target foe is suffering from a Hex, you gain 2...9...12 Energy. If this follows a dual attack you deal 6...30...35 damage to all adjacent foes (not target foe)
5 energy 6 recharge
[card]Golden Lotus strike[/card] Rename Golden Lotus Blossom
Lead Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17...20 damage. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, you gain 5...11...12 Energy. If this follows a dual attack you and all adjacent allys gain 15...40....47 health
1/2 cast 5 energy 6 recharge
[card]Disrupting stab[/card] Lead Attack. If this attack hits, it interrupts target foe's action. If that action was a Spell, it is disabled for 3...9...10 seconds. If this follows a dual attack deal 15....30...40 (not + damage) if foe is using a skill.
1/2 cast 6 recharge
Stuff like these would help L-O-D in the long run.
Bls got a damage and energy gain nerf, Lower recharge and energy cost and aoe damage (really only helps pve or at VoD)
GlS is similar but aoe health gain and less damage 1/2 cast helps it however.
Unsuspecting is now a much better skill to take, another option would to make it crit if it followed a dual (still getting energy back and gives more damage)
Disrupting stab is as good as disrupting dagger, Trade off? Lack of range,affected by block and blind and other anti- melee, damage is not elemental so not as effective against warriors. TF 5 less recharge makes a difference, the assassin can switch targets with more ease this way. Desperate strike is okay now (still not that great) It can now heal all you need to do is use it after a dual 1/2c and 5 recharge make it stand out even more.
Gps damage nerf = Good, now O-D-O-D isn't as strong (few lead skippers to begin with since BlS change) Now L-O-D got stronger.
If you see a problem with this moriz, or anyone tell me =P Going through ideas.
Sniffy
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Mar 2007
The Legionanire
A/D
05 Dec 2007 at 21:31 - 253
If I’ve got this right, you want Assassins to be…well, not Assassins. The class, after revision, would basically be running around the edges of a battle, trying to avoid getting squashed because they’re basically unarmored, needling people frequently and generally making a nuisance of themselves with various disruption attacks and such that they currently don’t have. Thing is, Mesmers do that sort of work just fine without having to get themselves killed in the front line or having to squeal to a Monk when they get Blinded/Crippled/Weakened/Whatevered. They may not do it as rapidly as you’re suggesting an Assassin should, but they also tend to do it more reliably and with greater effect, because Mesmers as a class were concepted, from the very start, to do that job.
Let’s face it – an Assassin running around with a low-damage, low-disruption combo in a fight, even one enough interrupts/lockdowns/knockdowns to make the GvG elites happy that they’ve successfully mollified the Assassin masses before they go back to their Warriors, is going to be largely ignored, mostly because it’s very ignorable. Especially if the other plans to make Assassins vanish – namely the destruction of Shadow Steps – goes through. Don’t get me wrong, I’d greatly enjoy having more options available to me as an Assassin, but again let’s face the facts here – I’d prefer keeping my Assassin as a viable character if at all possible. Just about everyone else in Guild Wars, it seems, would like to see Assassins as viable characters as well – but if that turns out to be too hard, you’ll all be perfectly happy if Anet just nerfs them into total uselessness and/or deletes them from the game entirely, which makes arguing the case very, very hard. I'm trying to argue saving the class; you guys are trying to balance the game. The very thought that Steps need to go frightens me, because it's a heavy indication that at heart, the people I'm arguing with don't care what happens to this class, so long as it stops killing people. And that sucks a lot of ass.
Anyways. I don’t really buy that this sort of rapid light-striker you’re talking about is worth bringing into a team over a properly done Mesmer. Not if all it does are ignorable little minispikes and a small handful of conditions. Yeah, it may do them faster, but the sort of rampant hard disruption you’re talking about would be pretty difficult to retroactively introduce to the class, and even if it wasn’t Mesmers are better at it anyways. If I’ve got yer model right, and I admit I likely don’t, but if I do…ye’re basically talking about turning the entirety of the Assassin class into what amounts to a Cripshot Ranger, save with less ability to spread Conditions around.
I wouldn't think the mini-spikes should by any means ignorable. I'm guessing it would be something like taking a 60AL (500 health average?) down 75% and an
80 AL 50%. All the assassins would have to do then is coordinate with each other a little to become a very real threat.
Sins would never be able to hang out in the frontline (unless they'd get some kind of armor buff skill for pvp) but a decent buff to Shadow Arts+Shadow Step buff/nerf would mean penetration from midline to midline and (hopefully) back again.
Shadow steps could be moved to a shorter recharge, one more in line with the minispikes. A coordinated pair of assassins could be jumping around enemy lines fairly often keeping opposing monks busy not letting anyone die. Though obviously, I'm not proposing anything like SP being moved to an 8-10 recharge. But Dark Prison with a little modification could potentially work without being op.
The disruption would have to take a different line from mesmer. Just tossing out random ideas here:
Mantis Touch: Atribute Deadly arts? 5e 12r 1/4 cast: Target foe is interrupted, dazed, blinded, and crippled for 1-3 seconds.
Deadly Paradox: Critical Strikes 5e 10r: for 4-12 seconds conditions you apply last 50% longer, but conditions applied on you last 50% longer.
To keep sins viable PvE, so long as they have DB Moebius spam that goes a long way toward keeping them viable.
Thoughts? Or am I off the mark again?
Keep sins viable ftw.
ensoriki
Forge Runner
Join Date: Aug 2006
Canada bro.
A/D
05 Dec 2007 at 22:03 - 254
Are you talking to Moriz Or Lightninghell?
Also I now own this thread >.>
Anyways alot of people complain about shadow steps, because the assassin just appears behind them.
This is still not a problem except for Dark Prison/Shadow Prison
Where even if you move as soon as you see that puff of smoke, your snared anyways.
LightningHell
(????????????)???
Join Date: Aug 2005
Hong Kong
Guildless
Mo/
05 Dec 2007 at 23:25 - 255
In the case that he's talking to me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffy
I wouldn't think the mini-spikes should by any means ignorable. I'm guessing it would be something like taking a 60AL (500 health average?) down 75% and an
80 AL 50%. All the assassins would have to do then is coordinate with each other a little to become a very real threat.
Sins would never be able to hang out in the frontline (unless they'd get some kind of armor buff skill for pvp) but a decent buff to Shadow Arts+Shadow Step buff/nerf would mean penetration from midline to midline and (hopefully) back again.
Shadow steps could be moved to a shorter recharge, one more in line with the minispikes. A coordinated pair of assassins could be jumping around enemy lines fairly often keeping opposing monks busy not letting anyone die. Though obviously, I'm not proposing anything like SP being moved to an 8-10 recharge. But Dark Prison with a little modification could potentially work without being op.
The disruption would have to take a different line from mesmer. Just tossing out random ideas here:
Mantis Touch: Atribute Deadly arts? 5e 12r 1/4 cast: Target foe is interrupted, dazed, blinded, and crippled for 1-3 seconds.
Deadly Paradox: Critical Strikes 5e 10r: for 4-12 seconds conditions you apply last 50% longer, but conditions applied on you last 50% longer.
To keep sins viable PvE, so long as they have DB Moebius spam that goes a long way toward keeping them viable.
Thoughts? Or am I off the mark again?
You've got the idea. Although the minispikes would take about 66% of the health, since everybody runs full health now.
ensoriki
Forge Runner
Join Date: Aug 2006
Canada bro.
A/D
05 Dec 2007 at 23:51 - 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
In the case that he's talking to me...
You've got the idea. Although the minispikes would take about 66% of the health, since everybody runs full health now.
What I don't get the idea T_T
Mini spikes of 33% health would suck considering the way the game is currently played.
If your spiking and you dont take more then 50% hp,If your only dealing 33% damage and the target is not under Prot Spirit, your more pressure to spike IMO.
assassins going from 45%-60% small spikes is more reasonable.
2 uses of a combo should kill and 1 use if you prepare and are smart about it (like Disrupting Dagger the foe..etc)
Really if sin's Leads were like 1-5 recharge the off hands were 3-6 and the duals were 4-10 I'd be a happy camper.
Temple strike being like the only off hand with a 15 second recharge (not 20 =P)
Having Good use of shadow steps seems good to me but I wish some shadow steps had a clause like this
Shadow Step to target foe
something like 15-20 second recharges
If target foe was in the area (when you cast this) this skill recharges 5 seconds quicker. Then all there effects (like gain hp if they have more hp then you, or snare, whatever)
That way if you use a shadow step in half-range, you get to use it more
When someone is in half-range its not hard to see them and start kiting before hand.
So that a 15 recharge shadow step becomes 10 if you use it from half-range
And defensive shadow steps be the opposite, you get better use from full-range
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
Join Date: Sep 2006
06 Dec 2007 at 00:30 - 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Why the hell would you see a non-instagib build? Generally any other build an assassin uses sucks...generally (huggles skill)
Also its not even true that a lot of the sin builds are instagib.
Its only a couple, any other instagib is pretty much just a variation of that 1 insta combo.
So really you have caster sin
and insta gib sin with a hex
instagib without a hex (uncommon)
So 3 insta gib builds. if you look around you just see variants of some skills, but the core is the exact same.
Remember before BLS change to lead?
You'd see over 9000 hex builds all claiming to be different...but what was the combo?
BLS TF BSS BOS or something similar like Horns replacing TF or BoS
or Tf replaced with horns and impale added >.>
The real things that actually gave those builds claiming to be "unique" their originality was the damn hex surrounding the build >.>
How can you say theres a lot of Instagib sin builds when really theres 3.
And they really only existed once nightfall came (Shows you wtf damage nightfall did)
.
because you can change some skills in them
seen a few non-instagibs - from the complete noob sins (moebius and shattering assault took off that list ofc)
ensoriki
Forge Runner
Join Date: Aug 2006
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06 Dec 2007 at 00:51 - 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
because you can change some skills in them
seen a few non-instagibs - from the complete noob sins (moebius and shattering assault took off that list ofc)
Changing 1/2 Skills that do not matter, doesn't make it a unique or original build really >.>
Anyone Utilizing Disrupting Dagger, or Siphon strength...cant be noob in my books....unless the planets are aligned or something.
or if im the one using the build >.> I make everything noob
LightningHell
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06 Dec 2007 at 01:24 - 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
What I don't get the idea T_T
Mini spikes of 33% health would suck considering the way the game is currently played.
If your spiking and you dont take more then 50% hp,If your only dealing 33% damage and the target is not under Prot Spirit, your more pressure to spike IMO.
assassins going from 45%-60% small spikes is more reasonable.
I think you misunderstand. 400 damage is about 66% with a meta with 600 health characters.
Of course, in a meta with old sup rune characters, the 'sin would be imba like that.
ensoriki
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06 Dec 2007 at 01:29 - 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I think you misunderstand. 400 damage is about 66% with a meta with 600 health characters.
Of course, in a meta with old sup rune characters, the 'sin would be imba like that.
But it isn't the old and thus 45-66% is good.
If you can take that much off, your still a strong Spike character
And if your recharges are like 3-6 seconds your good (like how the dervish had/has a bunch of 4 second attacks)
LightningHell
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06 Dec 2007 at 01:32 - 261
Recharges would be either 8 or 12. Probably, anyway.
ensoriki
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06 Dec 2007 at 01:43 - 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Recharges would be either 8 or 12. Probably, anyway.
That would be inferior to the warrior in spiking
The sin spike should be stronger than the warrior spike to compensate for lack of consistant damage and staying power.
The warrior can survive better naturally, and has more command of damage.
Where as for assassin auto attacks to equal to a warriors is reliant completely on luck.
The idea of 8-12 recharges is unreliable.
Lead attacks should all follow recharges in between 1-5 with only 1 or 2 being 6 recharge.
Off hands should be somewhere from 3-6 recharge, with 1 or 2 exceptions
and duals should be 2-10 with about 1 or 2 exceptions
(by 2 I mean death blossom =P)
The thing with TF, 1 hit wonder for 10 energy.
If assassins are going L-O-D, TF isn't as dangerous as it is in an O-D-O-D combo do to its lengthy recharge, and remains that way even at 10 recharge do to DW not causing maximum hp loss twice.
For 10 energy on something that enables you to do about
a 66-75% spike (with some of my improvements) doesnt need 15 recharge and thus 10 is better.
Most other duals should have something around 4-8 recharge.
As an assassin Still needs to go through that combo Twice more often than naught to kill, it works out as if you heal the 1st combo in that down time, the assassin starts all over again.
The way to prevent that is for the assassin to bring interrupts or other forms of utility to stop them from repairing all the damage from the first combo.
This is what will give the required skill some people complain about.
8-10 recharge overall for the spike is to much for an L-O-D combo to remain efficient.
LightningHell
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06 Dec 2007 at 02:01 - 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
That would be inferior to the warrior in spiking
The sin spike should be stronger than the warrior spike to compensate for lack of consistant damage and staying power.
The warrior can survive better naturally, and has more command of damage.
Where as for assassin auto attacks to equal to a warriors is reliant completely on luck.
The idea of 8-12 recharges is unreliable.
Lead attacks should all follow recharges in between 1-5 with only 1 or 2 being 6 recharge.
Off hands should be somewhere from 3-6 recharge, with 1 or 2 exceptions
and duals should be 2-10 with about 1 or 2 exceptions
(by 2 I mean death blossom =P)
The thing with TF, 1 hit wonder for 10 energy.
If assassins are going L-O-D, TF isn't as dangerous as it is in an O-D-O-D combo do to its lengthy recharge, and remains that way even at 10 recharge do to DW not causing maximum hp loss twice.
For 10 energy on something that enables you to do about
a 66-75% spike (with some of my improvements) doesnt need 15 recharge and thus 10 is better.
Most other duals should have something around 4-8 recharge.
As an assassin Still needs to go through that combo Twice more often than naught to kill, it works out as if you heal the 1st combo in that down time, the assassin starts all over again.
The way to prevent that is for the assassin to bring interrupts or other forms of utility to stop them from repairing all the damage from the first combo.
This is what will give the required skill some people complain about.
8-10 recharge overall for the spike is to much for an L-O-D combo to remain efficient.
I disagree on the inferior spiking part. A Warrior does quite a bit less than 400 damage on one of their spikes.
Keep in mind that in this model the Assassin's spiking capability is almost a sub-objective; in reality you would be too busy disrupting and disabling other stuff to be able to cycle your chain on demand, and if you could cycle your chain on demand (or two seconds later) you would be causing quite a lot of pressure (over 50 dps) as well as being able to spike harder than a warrior, and still strictly maintain a positional advantage via shadow steps.
One would call it a different form of imba.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but:
Quote:
As an assassin Still needs to go through that combo Twice more often than naught to kill, it works out as if you heal the 1st combo in that down time, the assassin starts all over again.
The way to prevent that is for the assassin to bring interrupts or other forms of utility to stop them from repairing all the damage from the first combo.
If one thinks of this model as a gimped version of the current assassin, then obviously it is going to be underpowered.
And if the disruption is good enough that you can still chain through to get a kill, it will still be skill-less.
ensoriki
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06 Dec 2007 at 03:16 - 264
Disruption is only skill less if your class had that skill-less disruption
I mean active disruption from
Disrupting stab/dagger
Meaning that the assassin watches his opponents skill bar to interrupt key skills.
Current Sin can go through his Combo Once and the target is dead, No whacking, no anything.
My damage ranges comes without the idea of criticals.
If an assassin is using skills to boost up his critical rate, his damage will be much betteron 60 AL.
Critical damage on 60 AL is 32 with + skills Jungle strike with condition met and critical will do around 80..100 damage.
My model (which probably sucks since it comes from me)
goes through his spike twice IF hes attacking a full hp target and is not using any other skills to ensure the kill. With Low recharges of 4-10 seconds this is not a huge problem
as recharges are still down time, thats the monks/rits/paragons leeway.
LaserLight
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06 Dec 2007 at 11:33 - 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I think you misunderstand. 400 damage is about 66% with a meta with 600 health characters.
Of course, in a meta with old sup rune characters, the 'sin would be imba like that.
I’m not trying to pick on ye Lightning, but I feel this point needs addressing.
The amount of damage permissible in an Assassin’s general skillchain is not fixed, but varies with the metagame as seen here. Back when superiors weren’t dirty things, a 300-damage spike would have been about as much as ye’d have been willing to go, eh? But in this day and age of characters who easily reach 600 Health or more, a 400-damage spike is alright. This, however, begs the question of responses to shifting meta. Are we going to see sweeping damage modifications to all of the Assassin’s skills every time the Standard Metagame Redbar Number moves?
It goes to show that you can’t micromanage a class this heavily without making it too unstable for its own good. Shifting skill damage that wildly as the meta changes, on top of basically completely overwriting every Assassin skill in the game, means that you’d end up with a huge number of very confused players trying to figure out just what the hell their character is actually supposed to do.
Ensoriki: I have to admit that most of your ideas don’t make much sense to me…you’re focusing way too much on arbitrary, confusing skill restrictions and figuring out weird ways to make lead/off/dual better than off/dual/off/dual. Why the shizwiggle do lead attacks need to all act like Moebius Strike now? o_O And adding a “this effect ends when *very specific anti-Sin action is taken* clause to half the skills in the game is not only nonintuitive and counterproductive, but is also an absolutely unacceptable level of micromanagement on Anet’s part. Same reasons I’m not a fan of Moriz’ original ideas for off-hands – crap just doesn’t make sense outside blatant skill arbitration to me.
Ye also have to realize that chain downtime is part of the balancing mechanic for Assassins. If an Assassin could simply blast out their chain without pause, string one into the other, then even I’d have to admit that the class would be hugely overpowered – that sort of lawn-mowing action’s a bit too hardcore for any sort of game even trying for balance. 8-12 recharge range is about the best ye could possibly hope for even if ArenaNet was prepared to completely redesign this class – which it isn’t.
LightningHell
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06 Dec 2007 at 12:06 - 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
I’m not trying to pick on ye Lightning,
No problem.
Addressing my part first...the main issue here is not the player-induced metagame, but of ANet changing basic game mechanics. A major reason why people run full health is because of VoD, coupled with the current restriction on armor swapping. Back when armor swapping was the norm, characters frequently had superior runes on.
Although that would be back in the Prophecies days.
And to respond to the other bit...the reason behind Moriz's skill changes is to give extra utility to offhands, which isn't all that bad. He's merely trying to give the skills inside a chain some use outside a chain.
ensoriki
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06 Dec 2007 at 12:08 - 267
Using skills out of a chain arent as useful for an assassin as it is a warrior.
It does not do much for us. Moriz original idea was to put disability, this new idea would piss off not only pve sins but pvp sins in the fact the class has a new mechanic that changes almost everything!
Meh I guess 400 damage spike from L-O-D is to strong.
360 spike with 5+ recharge seems okay to me.
it would take around 3 seconds to go through L-O-D , do to attack speed.
then wait 5 seconds, then go through 3 seconds again.
Laser I wasnt trying to kill O-D-O-D
Its more of, Kill IAS's on a sin, 1 problem is addressed, weaken the damage and another 1 is addressed.
If L-O-D is doing 360 spikes O-D-O-D is doing 420--460 damage spikes.
Also too many skills are powerful enough now that going back to people with 480 hp or less is crazy.
Searing Flames would shred you in half.
LightningHell
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06 Dec 2007 at 13:43 - 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Less skill?
Lets put
LMS 4 recharge
Jungle Strike 5 ot 6 recharge
TF 8 or 10 recharge (I think 8 works best)
Add this clause to LMS
If this follows a dual attack you deal an additional +8....20....26 damage if it hits a crippled foe.
This damage is factored in before, you apply cripple which means you actually have to maintain cripple and follow a dual attack on an enemy.
Do it and you get a nice damage bonus.
This also makes L-O-D have a new principle.
The first time you use your combo its an opener.
The second time you use it, its stronger and a finisher.
Of course as you would see throughout the thread Other skills have this and do different things, Like unsuspecting strike now giving energy back, to reduce its cost.
And this won't be skill-less because...?
It just makes it way easier for the other characters to disrupt, it does not really make it more "skillful", as you're still just pressing buttons in order.
On the other hand, if it's still recharging, it'll just be gimped. I rather have a utility character with a very strong (but still requiring some support, or weakening) spike.
Quote:
This wont be skill less because
4 second recharge, with jungle strike 1/4 cast
it takes about 3-4 seconds to go through this combo.
LMS still has about 2 or 3 seconds left on its recharge, Jungle strike 4 or 5.
TF has quite a bit remaining.
So what do you do? If Cripple gets removed your screwed, if They heal up your screwed too because even with the LMS bonus condition you still wont kill them from 600 health.
Again, this does not mean it takes more skill to play. It merely means it takes less skill on the other team to react to it.
Which severely gimps the Assassin.
Another problem with this is people might start chaining L-O-D-L-O-D, which makes it even more ridiculous than is now...while still being probably gimped.
[quote]You take interruption.
Mindless interruption is bad, if a ranger is just spamming Distracting Shot I dont want him on my team. If an assassin is just spamming Disrupting dagger/stab/Distracting blow I dont want him on my team also.
The sin has to time its interrupts, and if he doesn't any good monk is going to heal up and remove cripple
LMS also requires them to be moving, while not super skillful, you at least need to be watching the field instead of
C space, 12345678 while your looking at the tv.[quote]
Sorry, I don't get what you're trying to say here...
Quote:
If you don't think this will be better than the current L-O-D sin..im sorry for you Lightning.
It may not be the skill You want it to take.
But its much better than O-D-O-D is, and actually its about as skillful as a warrior.
Shadow steps remove the idea of positioning however, but with less staying power and a linebacker still being more consistant in its pressure, the assassin really does Minispikes
These mini spikes are screwed up if hes not interrupting/KD Whatever, or getting support from his team.
The whole idea is that even if Assassins have the strongest single-character spike in the game, at least make it so that it needs support to kill.
And if such rigid skill chaining exists, then Assassins are always going to be a "gimmick" class.
And to your interrupting/KD statement...he already does (should be doing) plenty of that.
Quote:
Makes the assassin more of a team player.
Sure the assassin will probably still have some of those 1 spike kill techniques.
Heres something to consider tho
If all warrior IAS's except for Flurry and Frenzy are reduced to 2 seconds at 0 attribute points, that removes a bit of the insta-gib problem.
If Bestial Fury ends if you use a dagger attack, thats fine too (rangers don't need to be using dagger attacks anyways, and thus will not gimp the ranger)
The sin is left with Frenzy and Flurry
Frenzy requires 2 slots
itself and cancel stance.
Flurry is not as effective as frenzy even on the assassin and flurry ending if you use a dual attack is also nice. (hey pve has critical agility)
Without a PvP IAS most insta-gib begins to weaken.
Then with nerfs like
GPS getting a damage nerf but now doing Burning if it follows a lead.
Also weakens instagib O-D-O-D
BSS returning to 5 energy and getting a damage and poison duration nerf and turning to lets say 20 recharge and having this clause
If this follows a lead attack this skill recharges 14 seconds faster and does an additiona x...x damage also balances it out.
O-D-O-D will become weakened, while because its so strong even this nerfs will not kill it. It will not be so strong as to insta-gib a target in a split second do to lack of an IAS (except for frenzy) or cause the same damage it does now.
It will just be viable. You will get a bit more damage from it, but at the lost of bar compression, L-O-D would have better bar compression (be less 1234567) and have more room for utility
O-D-O-D would be more 1234567 and more damage (Not as strong as it is now though) and easier to stop, cost more energy, less space on your bar for utility etc.
I'll reply to that with a general statement, as it's easier that way. Pardon me if any of this doesn't make sense.
As said before, Assassins' spikes are either overpowered or underpowered. There is no middle ground. If O-D-O-D is sufficiently nerfed to the point that it's easily disrupted and/or reacted to, people will just stop running it - and if it isn't, people will continue to run it due to it not being easily disrupted and/or reacted to. There is no middle ground where it's "just viable". People will only run it if it is overpowered, as there are better options available if it isn't.
Quote:
For utility lets say we both mark of insecurity and add
There enchantments and stances also cost an additional 5 energy the skill becomes better, better on flag runners, better on general use, better overall.
for 10 recharge, decent duration. enchantment and stance duration decrease...its good.
I'll leave the utility to the general concept I have (i.e. I'm not going to comment).
Quote:
If Shadow shroud was
All enchantments spells cast on target foe fail for x...x duration
it be better as right now self enchantments still work, making its use limited.
Its uses will still be limited to a very, dare I say, gimmicky role, due to the nature of the skill.
Quote:
t does not do much for us. Moriz original idea was to put disability, this new idea would piss off not only pve sins but pvp sins in the fact the class has a new mechanic that changes almost everything!
His original idea was to have Offhands do something other than being in a chain, as well as disabling for the sake of balance.
I hardly think the PvP community will cry about that. The PvE sins would cry though.
Quote:
Meh I guess 400 damage spike from L-O-D is to strong.
360 spike with 5+ recharge seems okay to me.
it would take around 3 seconds to go through L-O-D , do to attack speed.
then wait 5 seconds, then go through 3 seconds again.
And this goes back to above. If Assassins are just going to go back to chaining stuff after stuff, what does it change aside from the fact that Assassins are now really gimped?
EDIT: After reading again, it seems that I've misinterpreted what you said. Yes, attacks out of order are absolutely horrid when compared to a Warrior; however, neither of them tends to use attacks out of order anyway. Also, isn't the whole point of the addition of Offhand utility to compensate for this?
Sniffy
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Mar 2007
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06 Dec 2007 at 19:25 - 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Are you talking to Moriz Or Lightninghell?
Also I now own this thread >.>
Anyways alot of people complain about shadow steps, because the assassin just appears behind them.
This is still not a problem except for Dark Prison/Shadow Prison
Where even if you move as soon as you see that puff of smoke, your snared anyways.
I was trying to quote Lazerlight and just had a little technical bug.
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Recharges would be either 8 or 12. Probably, anyway.
I'm *guessing* the recharges should be shorter, like 6-10, with the exception of some way to keep spamming DB to help PvE sins. *But,* I'm also *guessing*, the shadow steps recharges should be geared toward double the chain attack recharges. That way you don't get sins warping all over the place every 6-10 seconds (depending on the useful effects a teleport may or may not provide) and it would be geared more toward teleporting every other spike recharge time. Though if the sin is not in a dangerous position, he could stick around wherever he teleported to. Because I'm guessing being able to teleport with effects that often would be incredibly overpowered, but trying to use something like Dark Prison (30r) or <shudder> Shadow Fang (45) with a chain that recharges in 6-10 seconds is ridiculous. Though I like the idea of just a basic teleport with no real additional effects that someone mentioned to help get a sin into a good position, but with no *automatic* snare.
For an effect snare shadow step perhaps something like:
Shadow Fang: Attribute Deadly Arts 5e 15r 0.25 cast:Teleport to target foe's location for 1-9 seconds. Target foe moves 33% slower for 1-9 seconds. When this hex ends, you teleport back to the location you teleported from and target foe suffers from deep wound for 14-7 seconds.
While I still like the idea of tri attacks for various reasons, I realize this would require an entirely new game mechanic and thus be impractical. Instead, perhaps they could make some dual attacks follow other dual attacks, and disable off-hands, and either entirely get rid of leads or convert them to dual following duals. These dual following dual attacks would be where most of the spike comes from. This is an attempt to
3. Make assassin chains slightly less fragile, while still making them perfectly blockable.
2. Limit ridiculously long 1234567 chains as the second dual disables off-hands.
1. Bar compression is ftw as it would allow sins to pack a little more survivability and disruption giving them a more versatile role in the metagame then overpoweredly killing people or underpoweredly not.
Yes? No?
Shinde
Banned
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07 Dec 2007 at 13:46 - 270
All this Theory Wars seems futile imo.
Sniffy
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07 Dec 2007 at 16:19 - 271
It probably is.
LightningHell
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07 Dec 2007 at 18:06 - 272
Remember that having a second Dual attack will result in a significantly more powerful attack, as even in the new system the Dual attack will most probably be the large hitter in the whole combo. In light of that, double-duals in a combination in a metagame where L-O-D is perfectly balanced will result in the double-dual combo being overpowered, and where L-O-D-D is balanced, L-O-D will be way underpowered. And I would prefer L-O-D over L-O-D-D, for obvious reasons.
I haven't actually thought about how to remodel Shadow Steps, mm.
Theory wars is all we can get when you can't get the changes in the game.
Sniffy
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Mar 2007
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07 Dec 2007 at 19:30 - 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Remember that having a second Dual attack will result in a significantly more powerful attack, as even in the new system the Dual attack will most probably be the large hitter in the whole combo. In light of that, double-duals in a combination in a metagame where L-O-D is perfectly balanced will result in the double-dual combo being overpowered, and where L-O-D-D is balanced, L-O-D will be way underpowered. And I would prefer L-O-D over L-O-D-D, for obvious reasons.
I haven't actually thought about how to remodel Shadow Steps, mm.
Theory wars is all we can get when you can't get the changes in the game.
I was proposing getting rid of leads so the chain would to O-D-DD as a way of making the assassin chain slightly harder to disrupt. Also it would increase energy gain slightly which you would need if you'd be spamming attacks that often, and it'd be nice to run some combos with minimal energy management attacks.
However, if they could get L-O-D to the point where it would do actually respectable amounts of damage, that'd work to.
If we would (rofl) all come to a consensus about something that would work, would there be some way to notify ANET to have them consider it or are we just royally stuck?
ensoriki
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08 Dec 2007 at 00:24 - 274
LoDD? Say what Lightning?
O-D-O-D won't necessarily be imba with LoD is balanced.
Why?
Lets look at the lead skip skills
Palm Strike
Black Spider Strike
Golden Phoenix Strike
Falling Spider
and I think 1 more skill.
Falling spider is fine, by ummm popular demand.
Palm is elite and not even a wonderful elite.
GPS can take a damage nerf.
And then inflict burning if it follows a lead attack.
Something similar with BSS.
Or
If this skill does not follow a lead attack you suffer from weakness for 10 seconds.
put to GPS and BSS
Bobby2
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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08 Dec 2007 at 00:42 - 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Lets look at the lead skip skills
Palm Strike
Black Spider Strike
Golden Phoenix Strike
Falling Spider
and I think 1 more skill.
Falling spider is fine, by ummm popular demand.
Palm is elite and not even a wonderful elite.
You're missing Falling Lotus Strike (better than the Spider IMO). If Palm Strike had been a dagger attack instead of a touch skill, you'd see it EVERYWHERE (because it would count for BoS).
LightningHell
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08 Dec 2007 at 01:16 - 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniffy
I was proposing getting rid of leads so the chain would to O-D-DD as a way of making the assassin chain slightly harder to disrupt. Also it would increase energy gain slightly which you would need if you'd be spamming attacks that often, and it'd be nice to run some combos with minimal energy management attacks.
However, if they could get L-O-D to the point where it would do actually respectable amounts of damage, that'd work to.
Okay...but this is really no more different than an L-O-D chain, however I look at it. Mind explaining how it's different?
Quote:
If we would (rofl) all come to a consensus about something that would work, would there be some way to notify ANET to have them consider it or are we just royally stuck?
Probably wouldn't.
Sniffy
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08 Dec 2007 at 23:43 - 277
It would not be a significant change, the tri attacks would have been more significant. The advantages would be
1. Increased hit per chain.
For example, you go up to a warrior, you do your lead, and he hits "riposte" just as you do your off hand. Since the max damage would have to be achieved by dual to prevent L-O-L-O spamming, you're just kind of stuck.
Same thing with "Guardian," if your foe has guardian on, the probability of you going L-O-D and getting through both your lead *and* your dual is less than 1/4. Don't ask me for the equation on that, my brain is fried right now but probability of L=1/2 O=1/2 but if lead get's blocked, off hand becomes 0/1. Anyways, adding in an extra attack as the same attack would increase your chance of at least using all your attack skills to some effect. Guardian would still block and thus still be useful, but it will decrease the chance of you being stuck and losing your energy investment. Otherwise a monk using Guardian could out last pretty much any assassin damage wise mostly just by using "guardian", as the unblockable combos don't do as much damage. I'll try and make this one shorter....
2. Additional hit means 1 more energy if you have zealous and 1-3 more if you crit. Assassins would need a fair amount of energy to be running combos every 8-10 seconds and providing some disruption and self-heal in the mean time.
So, the change is not as good or as significant as the tri attacks would be (imho) but I realize that would require a whole new mechanic and is thus even more impractical than most of the other ideas I come up with.
LaserLight
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
La La Land
[NOVA]
A/
09 Dec 2007 at 02:11 - 278
Sniffy, the concept of 'Dual Attack' comes from the fact that Assassins carry two daggers. a Dual Attack is the act of striking with both daggers essentially simultaneously.
With the exception of a specific notable One Piece character, I haven't seen many people use three blades at the same time. And frankly, an Assassin's mask would get in the way of clenching a dagger in their teeth. Nor are their toes all that dexterous. Kinda leaves out tri attacks as an option, eh? One hit per blade, man.
LightningHell
(????????????)???
Join Date: Aug 2005
Hong Kong
Guildless
Mo/
09 Dec 2007 at 04:54 - 279
So, basically the change asks for a single increased attack hit? Because otherwise all you're doing is shifting Offhands to the Lead position, Duals to the Offhand position, and Dual-after-Duals into the Dual position.
Not to say, you can't make your chain more flexible via any modification of the "Offhand" ability.
ensoriki
Forge Runner
Join Date: Aug 2006
Canada bro.
A/D
09 Dec 2007 at 13:28 - 280
Lightning I've been thinking.
The idea of assassins are either to weak or to strong and no borderline.
I'm now sure thats false.
The evidence is not long, its a small statement.
A-net throughout factions lifespan has buffed dagger attacks primarily, and not much of the other skills. We can say there is no borderline because we cannot see it happening. In Deadly and Shadow arts there are few skills strong enough to support an assassin, this is one of the problems.
When you have lines that are unbalanced you can only presume that a class can only be unbalanced in weakness or strength.
Had A-net taken time or decides to take time to help out Deadly arts and shadow arts. Problems with the daggers would be exponentially easier to deal with.
There is a middle line, but it means not just the daggers, but two crappy attributes.
Just run the 
