how to fix assassins
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Originally Posted by RiotGear
Originally Posted by Riotgear
Assassins are a gank character, a type of character that has been bad for PvP in every RPG it has existed in. Gank characters are bad because their defining features are some combination of the ability to create completely one-sided fights at will, the ability to avoid fights not in their favor completely, and the ability to deny their opponents the ability to prepare for them. If you still don't think that explains anything, reread the thread. I read: 'ability to snare, followed by massive damage' ---> definition of gank character, maybe?
Following that logic we might as well give Eles a hit with the nerf-bat as well, since they have these very characteristics available to them (Water-Air)?
Assassins are a gank character, a type of character that has been bad for PvP in every RPG it has existed in. Gank characters are bad because their defining features are some combination of the ability to create completely one-sided fights at will, the ability to avoid fights not in their favor completely, and the ability to deny their opponents the ability to prepare for them. If you still don't think that explains anything, reread the thread. I read: 'ability to snare, followed by massive damage' ---> definition of gank character, maybe?
Following that logic we might as well give Eles a hit with the nerf-bat as well, since they have these very characteristics available to them (Water-Air)?
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Following that logic we might as well give Eles a hit with the nerf-bat as well, since they have these very characteristics available to them (Water-Air)?
The difference is, Water and Air eles can't actually kill people with a clue outside of scrub PvP.
Spells are slow and don't really hit too hard.
Spells are slow and don't really hit too hard.
Chicken Ftw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
The difference is, Water and Air eles can't actually kill people with a clue outside of scrub PvP.
Spells are slow and don't really hit too hard. Yeah, I didn't see the "massive damage" part either.
Spells are slow and don't really hit too hard. Yeah, I didn't see the "massive damage" part either.
Bobby2
Ok, different angle: Deep Freeze followed by horrid Fire AoE spells.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Ok, different angle: Deep Freeze followed by horrid Fire AoE spells.
For that to work, the Heats would actually have to do real damage. 2 second cast spells that deal 30-something a second on 30 seconds recharge can't compare.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
I read: 'ability to snare, followed by massive damage' ---> definition of gank character, maybe?
Following that logic we might as well give Eles a hit with the nerf-bat as well, since they have these very characteristics available to them (Water-Air)? Sorry, I wasn't responding to anything you were saying - I skipped all the posts after the post I was quoting.
On topic, gank characters basically are...Assassins.
Following that logic we might as well give Eles a hit with the nerf-bat as well, since they have these very characteristics available to them (Water-Air)? Sorry, I wasn't responding to anything you were saying - I skipped all the posts after the post I was quoting.
On topic, gank characters basically are...Assassins.
Bobby2
Sigh, then I'll have to accept I like ganking 
LightningHell
Quoted from wiki:
Quote:
Ganking is a type of griefing in online roleplaying video games which employ player versus player combat (especially in MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft or Guild Wars). Ganking may involve attacking another player without warning; more specifically, doing so while the targeted player is already engaged in combat with a game character, usually meaning they're distracted and/or their health has been compromised. Ganking is not considered an honourable practice in MMORPGs, since the ganker is winning a fight they might not have won in circumstances where those participating in the PvP (player versus player) combat had an equal chance of winning. Essentially, ganking involves engaging in a battle where the instigator of the fight will certainly win.
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Bobby2
Firstly; what you describe is not a class but a battlefield situation. The Assassin is admittedly the master of creating such a situation, but that is only just.
Secondly; I'd like to ask you to read the following article:
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm
After you've read the article, can you answer the following questions:
If Assassins are truly overpowered/dominating the PvP scene/whatever, wouldn't there be more people packing counters against them? And, wouldn't it be stupid NOT to play an Assassin yourself now they're all god-like?
On another note, the concept of honour in serious PvP strikes me as... odd.
Secondly; I'd like to ask you to read the following article:
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm
After you've read the article, can you answer the following questions:
If Assassins are truly overpowered/dominating the PvP scene/whatever, wouldn't there be more people packing counters against them? And, wouldn't it be stupid NOT to play an Assassin yourself now they're all god-like?
On another note, the concept of honour in serious PvP strikes me as... odd.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Firstly; what you describe is not a class but a battlefield situation. The Assassin is admittedly the master of creating such a situation, but that is only just.
Secondly; I'd like to ask you to read the following article:
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm
After you've read the article, can you answer the following questions:
If Assassins are truly overpowered/dominating the PvP scene/whatever, wouldn't there be more people packing counters against them? And, wouldn't it be stupid NOT to play an Assassin yourself now they're all god-like?
On another note, the concept of honour in serious PvP strikes me as... odd.
Yeah, I agree, the concept of honor is really...odd. Only the bolded part matters in the quoted.
What I describe is indeed a battlefield situation. A character who can create that "gank" situation is called a "ganker", hence, the Assassin is classified as a "ganker".
The Assassin has been a few notches off "godlike" now, and Warriors are much more flexible. Hence, people stopped using them in high-end PvP. This resonates with another point; this model of the Assassin simply doesn't work in real competitive play - it is either too strong or too weak.
Secondly; I'd like to ask you to read the following article:
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm
After you've read the article, can you answer the following questions:
If Assassins are truly overpowered/dominating the PvP scene/whatever, wouldn't there be more people packing counters against them? And, wouldn't it be stupid NOT to play an Assassin yourself now they're all god-like?
On another note, the concept of honour in serious PvP strikes me as... odd.
What I describe is indeed a battlefield situation. A character who can create that "gank" situation is called a "ganker", hence, the Assassin is classified as a "ganker".
The Assassin has been a few notches off "godlike" now, and Warriors are much more flexible. Hence, people stopped using them in high-end PvP. This resonates with another point; this model of the Assassin simply doesn't work in real competitive play - it is either too strong or too weak.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Assassin simply doesn't work in real competitive play - it is either too strong ..../snip
No such thing as 'too strong', right? 
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
No such thing as 'too strong', right?
Signet of Ghostly Might when it was bugged, anyone?
Signet of Ghostly Might when it was bugged, anyone?
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
Signet of Ghostly Might when it was bugged, anyone?
Don't know it pre-fix. But lemme guess: everyone was taking it, because it ruled. Cause and effect, two possible outcomes:
1. People adapt and take countermeasures
2. If that's too hard, ANet nerfs the skill - which has essentially occurred in this case
1. People adapt and take countermeasures
2. If that's too hard, ANet nerfs the skill - which has essentially occurred in this case
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Don't know it pre-fix.
After 10 seconds, your target dies.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
Quote:
OK that's overpowered. |
1. People adapt and take countermeasures 2. If that's too hard, ANet nerfs the skill - which has essentially occurred in this case "Adapt and take countermeasures" isn't something that's always good. If I have to actually waste skillslots to counter a specific or build, there's probably something wrong. (I'm not saying that's the case here, but that's what you're implying.) Take in mind that if Fire Magic was buffed insanely I can "take countermeasures" to a build with 5 eles. Doesn't stop it being overpowered. (Of course, this isn't the case, but you know what I mean.)
Chicken Ftw
Say if you did take lots of counters to said overpowered build with 5 eles, then your opponent didn't use a single ele, well... Suddenly, you find yourself at a huge disadvantage. Build wars ftl.
Counterable does not equal balanced, and the sooner people realize this, the better.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
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Quote:
(I'm not saying that's the case here, but that's what you're implying.) Might be. I foreswore my self-heal (Breeze) in favour of Rigor Mortis because otherwise Rangers would all be definite no-go's. Not to mention Prot Monks. Does that mean these classes are also overpowered? IMO, no, they're just so powerful I have to take them into account when devising a build. I don't mind. I don't mind either that other classes don't seem to bother to take counters against Sins - again I say, apparently the impression is not THAT fearsome. All the easier for me!
EDIT I
Quote:
/Agree|
Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
Counterable does not equal balanced, and the sooner people realize this, the better.
True, but I refer to the article I posted again: balance will restore itself. After this supposed struggle to deal with imba Sin influence, another class will arise as the 'mightiest'. When that time comes, we'll play that class, and most people will probably whine about its imba-ness here. On that note, this game has been Build Wars for as long as I've played.
EDIT II Just felt the need to clarify again. I don't run imba wiki builds on my Sin, I take pride in devising builds myself and being effective with them. In that sense I'm a complete 'scrub'. I play the game to have fun. But in every game there are going to be WAAC-people, and what I'm saying is: you can't blame them for running something that gives them the greatest chance at success - blame the game for the existence of such a thing. I'm still having fun, through all the Sin hatred. /win!
Ulterion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
meh...
insta-gib sins should not exist but they do... But one thing the need to do to fix sins is make [skill]shattering assault[/skill] unconditional dmg and if they do just lower the damage for each hit. Now, you're just wishing assassins to the grave... Leave assassins alone. Their purpose is instagib and anet's slowly taking that away because more people like you (who wish assassins to equate to dirt) keep complaining. There's something called blind and snare btw... Use it, please.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
Counterable does not equal balanced, and the sooner people realize this, the better. |
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It isn't really fundamentally about "balance", when you're talking about such when relevant to stuff being "overpowered" - it's more like stuff is...for lack of a better word, uninteresting. A character that does not allow plays to be made is incredibly inflexible, and is not interesting at all for an experienced player to run.
Build Wars implies that victory relies on build. Guild Wars PvP fundamentally should not be such - for as long as I remember, it relies on the execution of your build. That is hardly "build wars".
Quote:
As an example...If I were to whine for what I want GW to be like, I'd be in the Monk forum posting grief threads instead of here.|
Originally Posted by Ulterion
Now, you're just wishing assassins to the grave... Leave assassins alone. Their purpose is instagib and anet's slowly taking that away because more people like you (who wish assassins to equate to dirt) keep complaining. There's something called blind and snare btw... Use it, please.
Should I point out how blatantly idiotic that statement is?
...Maybe not.
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulterion
Now, you're just wishing assassins to the grave... Leave assassins alone. Their purpose is instagib and anet's slowly taking that away because more people like you (who wish assassins to equate to dirt) keep complaining. There's something called blind and snare btw... Use it, please.
...Make a Chris Crocker video first.
It's fair enough to say use counters, that is why they exist, to stop something/negate it/prevent it. However people shouldn't need to bring counters against something that is overpowered and unjust, as that should not exist. Anyways, I really don't like this, It can never be balanced, too strong or to weak. You may be surprised to know (may) that having things Perfectly balanced (and I mean Perfect not somewhat) is very, very hard to do. I would go ahead and say that there are imbalances in the core classes themselves as well. If I look at what I find to be the most imba spikes the assassin has done. SP and DP CAster (used Blinding surge or SoJ) dealing with them shouldn't be hard. It shouldn't of been so difficult IMO to neutralize the SP sin to a playable and acceptable level of play. Anyways Im sure Im ranting but umm... Assassins aren't as Doomed people make them out to be. Whining because you dislike(like) a class, and whining because your sure there is something wrong with it and you want to adress that are different. Limu Tolkki
Quote:
Originally Posted by You can't see me
Assassins in PvE are very much in no need of attention. If you cannot find a way to kick butt with an assassin in PvE, you fail at that class. Nothing more to it.
I dont have sin, so i cant give my opinion about that. But i cant say that even if your sin kicks butts in pve theres better ways to do it. Let me count, nine of them right?
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limu Tolkki
I dont have sin, so i cant give my opinion about that. But i cant say that even if your sin kicks butts in pve theres better ways to do it. Let me count, nine of them right?
You're an ignorant fool if you think Eles and Mesmers can match the power of an Assassin in PvE.
Admittedly, eles can for NM PvE, but... Physicals hit harder in HM, by a long shot. Armour-ignoring damage is ftw. Limu Tolkki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
You're an ignorant fool if you think Eles and Mesmers can match the power of an Assassin in PvE.
Admittedly, eles can for NM PvE, but... Physicals hit harder in HM, by a long shot. Armour-ignoring damage is ftw. You and your physical dmg. Armour-ignoring dmg is maybe ftw but aoe dmg even more. Assassin + pve = fail. And yes, eles and mesmers can, aswell others classes.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limu Tolkki
You and your physical dmg. Armour-ignoring dmg is maybe ftw but aoe dmg even more. Assassin + pve = fail. And yes, eles and mesmers can, aswell others classes.
Oh, well... sorry for not being blind and seeing spell damage is pathetic in HM. My bad.
And please, stop digging that hole - Mesmers are bad at PvE. Yes, they can accomplish it, but every other class can more efficiently.
BlackSephir
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limu Tolkki
You and your physical dmg. Armour-ignoring dmg is maybe ftw but aoe dmg even more. Assassin + pve = fail. And yes, eles and mesmers can, aswell others classes.
Never heard of Moebius Spammer, huh? AoE armor ignoring damage = fail?
Limu Tolkki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
Oh, well... sorry for not being blind and seeing spell damage is pathetic in HM. My bad.
And please, stop digging that hole - Mesmers are bad at PvE. Yes, they can accomplish it, but every other class can more efficiently. Have i said something else. Yes, i agree, mesmers are bad in pve, aswell are assassins.
Chicken Ftw
Haven't we all learned to ignore Limu and Ulterion by now? They're pretty clueless, and have proven to be stubborn in their ignorance. :|
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
Haven't we all learned to ignore Limu and Ulterion by now? They're pretty clueless, and have proven to be stubborn in their ignorance. :|
Oooh, they're fun to play with
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensoriki
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Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
You're an ignorant fool if you think Eles and Mesmers can match the power of an Assassin in PvE.
To expand on this, it isn't really because Assassin damage is omgwtfawesome, but because melee damage generally > caster, whether it's in PvE or PvP.
That said, PvEwise Assassins and Mesmers are probably the most weakest classes. Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
That said, PvEwise Assassins and Mesmers are probably the most weakest classes.
Agreed, 'Sins do wtfpwnage damage but they also take wtfpwnage damage, and if not running the old mystic regen/crit defense/ crit agility/moebious/blossom combo theyre most of the time dead without a babysitter monk
Also @limu, stop playing scrubbytankway, its for bad players and mostly bad monks:also adding, people who only play this like you and its obvious because of the way you write, most of its players do not understand anything about guildwars...
RyXXed
I'd like to point out that Assassins are not Warriors, they're quick physical damage dealers. You don't need to fix them as they are easy to counter if you have half of your brain. Their low AL makes them very squishy and their attack spike will fail if you interrupt at least one attack skill. I don't see what the problem is. So should we nerf their damages some more so they become useless in the game and no one will play them anymore except A/P and A/Rs?
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LightningHell
Build Wars implies that victory relies on build. Guild Wars PvP fundamentally should not be such - for as long as I remember, it relies on the execution of your build. That is hardly "build wars".
Execution, positioning, timing, will ALWAYS play a part regardless of the (team) build you run. However, some synergies (ESPECIALLY in team builds) are so one-sided/over-the-top that it is hard to fight them without specific counters. I seem to recall an anecdote of a top guild in GvG being notorious for fielding numerous Shadow Form Sins... and their opponents either
1. taking counters (what was it, Expunge Enchantments?) or 2. never standing a chance. /desperately trying to keep the thread from drifting into Nonsense City again Splitisoda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloneh
good argument genius
1. can it also do a spike that compares to Evis + executioner's? 2. see? there isnt even room for 5 attacks, that explains SP... 3. go dot yourself..... 4. yupp 1.With my build, i hop in, kill and hop out. With that build you need to build up adreneline, and in that time they already realized probably your attacking them and put up a stance.GG 2.You dont need 5 attacks, in fact my build doesnt even need a deepwound and kills. 3.??? 4.???!
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
in fact my build doesnt even need a deepwound and would fail in any part of the game that took skill, PvP for example.
Fixed, have fun.
Splitisoda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda
Fixed, have fun.
If my build fails, then apparently whenever im attacking something and it dies, 10 eles must be following me with obsidian flame then.
LightningHell
...Jeez. I was on a small break off the computer, and when I come back I have to delete two and a half pages worth of posts.
does not allow plays to be made': applicable to any shutdown-oriented character?
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If you're saying non-shutdown-oriented characters, then look at any other character. Any midline, frontline, or backline character - basically, every character - is going to have some amount of flexibility to respond to situations and make plays.
Quote: Execution, positioning, timing, will ALWAYS play a part regardless of the (team) build you run. However, some synergies (ESPECIALLY in team builds) are so one-sided/over-the-top that it is hard to fight them without specific counters. I seem to recall an anecdote of a top guild in GvG being notorious for fielding numerous Shadow Form Sins... and their opponents either
1. taking counters (what was it, Expunge Enchantments?)
or
2. never standing a chance.
Besides, I think the Shadow Form assassins you mention are part of the gank team. They served as excellent NPC killers, for sure.
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1.With my build, i hop in, kill and hop out. With that build you need to build up adreneline, and in that time they already realized probably your attacking them and put up a stance.GG
...Switch targets. Quote:
Sins can have this too, by not taking an instagib build. At least I feel I'm pretty good at harassment (general annoyance?) with my Sin.
Quote: | |
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Originally Posted by LightningHell
Which is what shouldn't happen.
Besides, I think the Shadow Form assassins you mention are part of the gank team. They served as excellent NPC killers, for sure. Rly? Isn't it only smart to exploit game mechanics (including AI)? As for the team in question, I trust your memory more than mine!
ensoriki
What do you mean taking counters should never happen?
2 sides of a coin, one says take counters, one says you shouldn't have too. Im going to go ahead and assume that you meant, a team shouldn't have no chance in winning if they don't have a counter lightninghell. Quote:
My Prot/Healing hybrid monk kills by wanding. Does that make it count as a good damage character?
Against level 1 enemies, its a god. | ______ Anyways isn't the combo [card]Disrupting stab[/card][card]Exhausting Assault[/card][card]Moebius Strike[/card][card]Twisting Fangs[/card] (with Death blossom or Leaping mantis sting replacing skills) Not insta-gib?
Bobby2
It isn't.
 Still effective though. 
Coloneh
sorry, this has nothing to do with the current discussion
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
Quote: 1.With my build, i hop in, kill and hop out. With that build you need to build up adreneline, and in that time they already realized probably your attacking them and put up a stance.GG
2.You dont need 5 attacks, in fact my build doesnt even need a deepwound and kills. dont jump into a discussion you dont understand. 1. your build does NO pressure. even less than auto-attacking. 2. insti-gib spikes take somewhere around 5 attack skills, and if your spike isnt instigib, it damn well better come with pressure. /offtopic |
