You're steamrolling through an explorable zone or a dungeon. Everything's dying at your feet. Your heroes builds are working wonderfully. You take a few casualties, but they're light and easily remedied. A 15% DP here or there, worked off quickly due to the abundant mob counts.
You get to the boss. You put on the buffs. Celerity, Grail of Might. You wish you still had a good supply of CC's stashed.
The attack begins.
Super skills start casting, but they aren't your skills. The boss's HP bar twitches, yet doesn't falter. You start losing people. The nuker. The monk. There goes the tank. The MM drops and the survivors are awash in hostile minions.
The DP's rise. Grail and Celerity expire. Res shrine...
The boss has skills that hit for 100, 200, 300 damage, if not more! Your health after 60% is... under 200, if not for your armor. The odds favor the chea- *ahem* the boss, of course.
You're screwed. You fail. There aren't enough mobs left for the DP-reducing XP. Thanks Death Penalty! I couldn't lose you fast enough!
/resign
/sigh
I'm sorry, but this sequence of events takes place way, way too often in Guild Wars. Death Penalty is easy to lose, in the right situations, but in others it is nigh impossible. Once you have it, you're done. Game over man.
I know, I know. The Death Penalty mechanic can't be fully removed from the game. Balance issues and all that... *coughwhatbalance?!hack* But the way it is reduces can be altered. Instead of +75XP = -1%, why can't it be 1 Kill = -1%? Get rid of it faster, without buffs or scrolls, helpful as they are when you have them. Get back into the fight! The AI's already crippled, DP acts only as lead paint chips, or gas fumes.
One kill, one percent. It's simple math. Make the game fun again.
Discuss.
Death Penalty has got to GO!
RSGashapon
Wakka
/really really not signed
Use protection spells to stay alive. If you want to remove DP quicker use consumables.
Use protection spells to stay alive. If you want to remove DP quicker use consumables.
RSGashapon
Two monks (hero or pug, doesn't matter), one healing, one healing/prot. Both dead.
Consumables are used up. Expired.
What now?
I've thought this scenario over many times, you didn't read the whole post.
Consumables are used up. Expired.
What now?
I've thought this scenario over many times, you didn't read the whole post.
Cebe
What boss was it you were trying to kill?
Normal Mode or Hard Mode?
Removing DP is not the way forward, it's served it's purpose for the last 2 and a half years so far...
/not_signed
Normal Mode or Hard Mode?
Removing DP is not the way forward, it's served it's purpose for the last 2 and a half years so far...
/not_signed
Squishy ftw
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RSGashapon
...
Discuss. |
Like, bring more passive defense, don't bring a tank(a warrior does damage!!!!), bring some shutdown if you know you'll encounter a boss that has the potential to hit for 200+.. Basically, prepare decently,check what you'll be facing, think about ways to counter it, and what'll kill it the fastest.
And on top of that, there even are consumables that help you prevent the gain of DP and there are plenty of DP removers around aswel.
And if you mention what boss it is you're having problems with and you give your party setup/builds, people can offer more help instead of talking about how DP should be removed..not..
/notsigned
RotteN
i've killed dungeon bosses with my heroes/henchies at around 60DP.
It's the beauty of protective spirit : the more DP, the better it gets ^^
it's fine as it is, never bothered me much
/not signed
It's the beauty of protective spirit : the more DP, the better it gets ^^
it's fine as it is, never bothered me much
/not signed
icedwhitemocha
Prot spirit is gud in PvE!
Who knew?
Who knew?
Turbobusa
Leeeeeeearn to play.
Sorry i don't usually agree with that kind of comments but come on... just throw a protective spirit and you'll be fine.
Concentrate the boss' fire on some tank at worst.
Debuff him.
keep him blind/knocked down/dazed...
...think?
Sorry i don't usually agree with that kind of comments but come on... just throw a protective spirit and you'll be fine.
Concentrate the boss' fire on some tank at worst.
Debuff him.
keep him blind/knocked down/dazed...
...think?
Faer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RSGashapon
Thanks Death Penalty! I couldn't lose you fast enough!
|
Wakka
Quote:
| I've thought this scenario over many times, you didn't read the whole post. |
Toutatis
IMO, things really start to get fun when the DP starts increasing. You have to start modifying your attack strategies on the fly, and see how well you can do when defence becomes more important than the general "kill kill kill" mentality that dominates most of PvE.
MirkoTeran
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Faer
Try not getting it in the first place. I heard that's an effective strategy.
|
Wakka
Quote:
| IMO, things really start to get fun when the DP starts increasing. You have to start modifying your attack strategies on the fly, and see how well you can do when defence becomes more important than the general "kill kill kill" mentality that dominates most of PvE. |
System_Crush
/not signed
There are a few glitches concerning death penalty in PvE though,
It should for 1 not be counted in aggro calculation.
A member of the party dies once, not even their fault; they where mobbed by their/someones pet, or the monk was dazed at the time.
In hard mode this is followed by that person dieing over and over again, because when given the choice mobs will gang up on them, as they have 25 less health than the other members of the team.
Now I use [skill=text]Death Pact Signet[/skill] on a number of my builds, I'm not stupid enough to use it in mid combat often, but if a monk dies the quickest rez in the game is a blessing to have.
But if everything not aggro-locked(basically all melee's if theres a AoEDoT ele in the team) starts attacking that monk, I have a problem.
Players in PvP can't see how much death penalty someone is suffering, it's a moral effect, unless mobs can read minds they shouldn't be able to read someone's moral either, so positive or negative moral effects should be left out of the aggro calculation, I just think it makes sense.
Also, WTB some AoE shutdown skills for monks in protection of smiting prayers with a reasonable cost/recharge. Healers should have the option to reduce the amount they have to heal by debuffing instead, this is something present in many games, why not in GW?
There are a few glitches concerning death penalty in PvE though,
It should for 1 not be counted in aggro calculation.
A member of the party dies once, not even their fault; they where mobbed by their/someones pet, or the monk was dazed at the time.
In hard mode this is followed by that person dieing over and over again, because when given the choice mobs will gang up on them, as they have 25 less health than the other members of the team.
Now I use [skill=text]Death Pact Signet[/skill] on a number of my builds, I'm not stupid enough to use it in mid combat often, but if a monk dies the quickest rez in the game is a blessing to have.
But if everything not aggro-locked(basically all melee's if theres a AoEDoT ele in the team) starts attacking that monk, I have a problem.
Players in PvP can't see how much death penalty someone is suffering, it's a moral effect, unless mobs can read minds they shouldn't be able to read someone's moral either, so positive or negative moral effects should be left out of the aggro calculation, I just think it makes sense.
Also, WTB some AoE shutdown skills for monks in protection of smiting prayers with a reasonable cost/recharge. Healers should have the option to reduce the amount they have to heal by debuffing instead, this is something present in many games, why not in GW?
Turtle222
don't you think the reason you are dying is because you suck?
Edit: /notsigned + i agree 100% with toutatis
Edit: /notsigned + i agree 100% with toutatis
Lord Sojar
/notsigned.... removing primary mechanics = BAAAAAAAAAAAD
isamu kurosawa
Learn how to play something other than tanks and nukers or just take pain inverter and cheat right back.
Lord Sojar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
Learn how to play something other than tanks and nukers or just take pain inverter and cheat right back.
|
fowlero
PvE doesn't need more of its slight amount of challenge removed, sure its annoying but it happens and tbh i like how it works.
You seem intelligent enough to bring some shutdown builds to counter the boss, why not do it?
You seem intelligent enough to bring some shutdown builds to counter the boss, why not do it?
Mineria
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RSGashapon
You're steamrolling through an explorable zone or a dungeon. Everything's dying at your feet. Your heroes builds are working wonderfully. You take a few casualties, but they're light and easily remedied. A 15% DP here or there, worked off quickly due to the abundant mob counts.
You get to the boss. You put on the buffs. Celerity, Grail of Might. You wish you still had a good supply of CC's stashed. The attack begins. Super skills start casting, but they aren't your skills. The boss's HP bar twitches, yet doesn't falter. You start losing people. The nuker. The monk. There goes the tank. The MM drops and the survivors are awash in hostile minions. The DP's rise. Grail and Celerity expire. Res shrine... The boss has skills that hit for 100, 200, 300 damage, if not more! Your health after 60% is... under 200, if not for your armor. The odds favor the chea- *ahem* the boss, of course. You're screwed. You fail. There aren't enough mobs left for the DP-reducing XP. Thanks Death Penalty! I couldn't lose you fast enough! /resign /sigh I'm sorry, but this sequence of events takes place way, way too often in Guild Wars. Death Penalty is easy to lose, in the right situations, but in others it is nigh impossible. Once you have it, you're done. Game over man. I know, I know. The Death Penalty mechanic can't be fully removed from the game. Balance issues and all that... *coughwhatbalance?!hack* But the way it is reduces can be altered. Instead of +75XP = -1%, why can't it be 1 Kill = -1%? Get rid of it faster, without buffs or scrolls, helpful as they are when you have them. Get back into the fight! The AI's already crippled, DP acts only as lead paint chips, or gas fumes. One kill, one percent. It's simple math. Make the game fun again. Discuss. |
We like the DP so it doesn't get to easy doing hardmode, since it makes it fun.
What is it worth without the a risk for that it can fail?
But I guess you prefer repair costs and an insane amount of potions used.
And if all then die... they are dead and stay dead till they zone out to an outpost.
Or you could have it hellish, if you character dies it gets deleted.
Things that have need made in some games, and guess what, some players love it.
So I can't see any reason for that DP should be removed or be made easy to get rid of. It already is, have a candy cane.
Out of candy canes, well thats just bad luck.
Try the trade channels in outpost, might be able to buy from someone there.
Isileth
/not signed
Without DP you can just run at something over and over till it eventually dies.
If you arent able to beat an area then look to see what you can change in your builds and playstyle.
Without DP you can just run at something over and over till it eventually dies.
If you arent able to beat an area then look to see what you can change in your builds and playstyle.
System_Crush
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Isileth
Without DP you can just run at something over and over till it eventually dies.
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Isileth
Quote:
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Originally Posted by System_Crush
Well so can you with death penalty, the power of your skills does not decrease. The ability to do that is what is the biggest difference between explorable areas and missions.
|
Without that you can just keep on going taking down 1 thing at a time before you wipe.
~ Dan ~
I stand by what i said in another ridiculous thread:
Quote:
| It's as if people are making up new ideas for changes just for the sake of it, without putting any logic into their thoughts. |
I D E L E T E D I
Whats DP? I play loads of HM PvE and never heard of it? Tank and Nukers? Thats so pre Gwen. You gotta keep up with the fashion. I heard paras and rit own.
/endsarcasm
/notsigned
/endsarcasm
/notsigned
Wakka
Para's owned before GWEN, people were just too up themselves to realise it.
isamu kurosawa
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wakka
Para's owned before GWEN, people were just too up themselves to realise it.
|
Daf
/start sarcasm
Yes, delete the dp so we can do HM like NM...
/end sarcasm
like already said in this thread, post your builds so people can help instead of saying that dp has to go.
You'll get a lot more usefull reactions on it than now
/not signed
Yes, delete the dp so we can do HM like NM...
/end sarcasm
like already said in this thread, post your builds so people can help instead of saying that dp has to go.
You'll get a lot more usefull reactions on it than now
/not signed
Sleeper Service
its more than feasible to kill "one shot" bosses with 60DP, placement, interrupts....
In HM its an auto-boot back to camp.
Post what boss and your (teams) build. I'm sure some people can give some helpful, non aggressive advice.
In HM its an auto-boot back to camp.
Post what boss and your (teams) build. I'm sure some people can give some helpful, non aggressive advice.
RSGashapon
I regret presenting my views to people who care more about the meta then about having casual fun...
If I wanted to plan every little detail down to the millisecond, I'd switch to RTS games. I'm sorry that I want to play GW like an FPS with a bit more to offer than just "point, click, dead".
If I wanted to plan every little detail down to the millisecond, I'd switch to RTS games. I'm sorry that I want to play GW like an FPS with a bit more to offer than just "point, click, dead".
System_Crush
Quote:
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Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I
I heard paras and rit own.
/endsarcasm |
[wiki]Spear Swipe[/wiki] anyone? Even heroes can't go wrong with that.
Rits are great too, but hero's are to stupid to use them right(and so am I depending on the time of day)
AuraofMana
It doesn't take outright planning to do well in GW.
Hell, it doesn't even take that in an RTS. RTS isn't about planning, it's about countering your opponent(s) depending on the situation. Your "planning" puts you DEAD in an RTS because you cannot quickly adapt to the situation.
This is from an Asian that played Starcraft for 12 years, Command and Conquer series since the first game, and Total Annihilation + Supreme Commander to this date.
Hell, it doesn't even take that in an RTS. RTS isn't about planning, it's about countering your opponent(s) depending on the situation. Your "planning" puts you DEAD in an RTS because you cannot quickly adapt to the situation.
This is from an Asian that played Starcraft for 12 years, Command and Conquer series since the first game, and Total Annihilation + Supreme Commander to this date.
Thundro
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RSGashapon
I regret presenting my views to people who care more about the meta then about having casual fun...
If I wanted to plan every little detail down to the millisecond, I'd switch to RTS games. I'm sorry that I want to play GW like an FPS with a bit more to offer than just "point, click, dead". |
I mean seriously, if DP doesnt matter you just keep rushing into the group till they're all dead. Fetch yourself a drink while at it.
It's called Death PENALTY for a reason, the objective of the game is NOT to die.
Wakka
Quote:
| I regret presenting my views to people who care more about the meta then about having casual fun... |
If you took DP out then the game would be too easy for the rest of us. Would you really want to make the game less fun for more experienced players? Isnt that a bit selfish?
Sleeper Service
you want to play GW...like a FPS?
this thread is over.
this thread is over.
Mineria
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RSGashapon
I regret presenting my views to people who care more about the meta then about having casual fun...
If I wanted to plan every little detail down to the millisecond, I'd switch to RTS games. I'm sorry that I want to play GW like an FPS with a bit more to offer than just "point, click, dead". |
If you play as much as that you get to bosses that require a bit looking at the skills they cast, you are over the casual state.
If you don't make it because you don't have anything to counter those skills, well you will have it next time.
Like you will have to in a FPS without instant save games, do it again from the start of the map.
RSGashapon
Bad analogy then, I take that back.
As for what Wakka said, isn't that what the PVP community wants to do every time a build becomes too widespread? I don't want to start that flame war up again, but it does seem like most of the nerfs have been because of people wanting to make things easier in PVP.
PVP'ers therefor seem to be the most selfish, elitist bunch in the entire game.
"Blahblahway is too hard to beat. We can't get around it. So, change it!" ...and it usually is changed.
As for what Wakka said, isn't that what the PVP community wants to do every time a build becomes too widespread? I don't want to start that flame war up again, but it does seem like most of the nerfs have been because of people wanting to make things easier in PVP.
PVP'ers therefor seem to be the most selfish, elitist bunch in the entire game.
"Blahblahway is too hard to beat. We can't get around it. So, change it!" ...and it usually is changed.
Div
Getting better at the game will generally alleviate such problems.
Isileth
RSGashapon I can assure it is a little more complex than that.
Not going to go into detail because there are plenty of threads on it (most locked because it often turns into a pve v pvp flame fest).
But basically unlike in pve skills will be exploited. If something is more powerful enemies in pve wont change their builds and run it.
In PvP not only will people run it, a lot of people will run it.
It has 2 main negative effects.
1) You end facing the same build over and over (Imagine 90% of all enemies in pve running the same build)
2) It leads to a rock paper scissor style gameplay, in that if you dont bring the counter you will get beaten by it.
Not going to go into detail because there are plenty of threads on it (most locked because it often turns into a pve v pvp flame fest).
But basically unlike in pve skills will be exploited. If something is more powerful enemies in pve wont change their builds and run it.
In PvP not only will people run it, a lot of people will run it.
It has 2 main negative effects.
1) You end facing the same build over and over (Imagine 90% of all enemies in pve running the same build)
2) It leads to a rock paper scissor style gameplay, in that if you dont bring the counter you will get beaten by it.
Silly Warrior
/notsigned, for many reasons.