Paragons... Not worthing using its elite..

kullwarrior

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2006

Canada

P/

Is it just me or Paragons have pretty crappy elites?
Crappiest
"Incoming!"
"The Power Is Yours!"
"It's just a flesh wound."
Cautery Signet
Angelic Bond
Stunning Strike
Anthem of Fury
Cruel Spear
Crippling Anthem
Soldier's Fury
Anthem of Guidance
Song of Purification
Focused Anger
Song of Restoration
Defensive Anthem
Survivable..

Seriously but Paragon's Elite need like major buff.
Incoming is beyond crap, The Power is Yours was crap since it's creation. Never see the light. Flesh Wound is almost the same, Cautery Signet might be useful if its shorter cast/recharge. Otherwise all you see paragon used in:
PVE:
Soldier's Fury
Focused Anger

PVP
Anthem of Guidance
Defensive Anthem

Both
Song of Purification
Song of Restoration

Splitisoda

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

STALKER!

Not in One

N/A

You do have a point, although some of the elites are just worth it for the damage like wearying spear ithink, i use that with my 7 adren skills combo + for great justice.

The Meth

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by kullwarrior
Is it just me or Paragons have pretty crappy elites?
Otherwise all you see paragon used in:
PVE:
Soldier's Fury
Focused Anger
PVP
Anthem of Guidance
Defensive Anthem
Both
Song of Purification
Song of Restoration I would add Cruel spear and Angelic bond to those lists, making it 8 out of 15 decent elites, which is a pretty good ratio compared to the other professions

Diddy bow

Diddy bow

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

Jawsome!!!!!!!!!!!

looking for one :p

A/D

Nice defensive anthem is in crappiest and pvp :P

Some of the elites the have are quite good when you think about it though, just never seen major use.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Warriors have Dragon Slash, Eviscerate, Backbreaker, Earthshaker, Devestating Hammer.
Monks have... Word of Healing, Restore Condition, to a lesser extent Healer's Boon and Shield of Deflection.
Elementalist have Mind Blast, Blinding Surge, Savannah Heat, maybe Icy Shackles.
Necromancers have Spiteful Spirit and Corrupt Enchantment. I think minion masters use Order of Undeath.
Mesmers have Expel Hexes (though generally seen on a /me), Hex Eater Vortex, Energy Surge, and the odd Signet of Illusions guy.
Ritualist have Offering of Spirit and Weapon of Remedy.
Assassins have Moebius Strike.
Dervish have Avatar of Melandru, Arcane Zeal, Lyssa is okay, I think Ebon Dust Aura has some builds as well.
And finally Rangers have Barrage, Broad Head Arrow, Burning Arrow, Lacerate in some condition builds, and Crippling Shot.

I didn't list some because they generally appear in degenerate builds so they really aren't worth listing. Whereas the paragon... it would be easier to list the elites that don't see play. I'm not sure why some of those elites were listed as not seeing play, especially Cruel Spear. Ranged Eviscerates are bad? I'm not sure what the point of this thread is unless there is some sarcasm in the title.

wetsparks

wetsparks

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

you forgot [skill]spoil victor[/skill] for necros.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Warriors have Dragon Slash, Eviscerate, Backbreaker, Earthshaker, Devestating Hammer.
For shame Racthoh! You forgot about Crippling Slash, and you're a sword user (if you ever play your warrior that is)

Quote: Monks have... Word of Healing, Restore Condition, to a lesser extent Healer's Boon and Shield of Deflection. I think Shield of Regen and Deflection are still good

Quote:
Elementalist have Mind Blast, Blinding Surge, Savannah Heat, maybe Icy Shackles. Standstorm and in PvP or large numbers, Searing Flames are still playable. Elemental Attunement is still nice for non NF users.

Quote:
Necromancers have Spiteful Spirit and Corrupt Enchantment. I think minion masters use Order of Undeath. Jagged Bones and Aura of the Lich are still good.

arsie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2007

N/

The issue is that the Fire Elemental line has more good elites than Assassins and Ritualists.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wetsparks
you forgot [skill]spoil victor[/skill] for necros.
I'd have to include Spellbreaker, Obsidian Flesh, etc.. if I were to include Spoil Victor. I can't think of a necro bar outside of a solo build or Shiro in Cantha that would use Spoil Victor over an SS guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik For shame Racthoh! You forgot about Crippling Slash, and you're a sword user (if you ever play your warrior that is)
Oops, forgot about Crippling Slash. My bad, I do play paragon too much; not my fault they're the best PvE profession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik I think Shield of Regen and Deflection are still good The primary use of Regen I saw was on runners, rarely ever in PvE. Given that LoD was removed from all forms of PvP you'll typically see the runner carrying a party heal in the form of Protective was Kaolai or a Heal Party. No place for SoR anymore.

Deflection I agree is still decent enough, I know I've seen a few PvErs at the very least using it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Standstorm and in PvP or large numbers, Searing Flames are still playable. Elemental Attunement is still nice for non NF users. Sandstorm I didn't realize still saw play, as the few HA matches I generally watch are filled with Searing Flames. SF, as I mentioned, I didn't list because in my eyes it is a degenerate build; 5-6 SFers and two monks doesn't look healthy to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
Jagged Bones and Aura of the Lich are still good. I've never had any good experience with AoTL except that since they AI targets low health targets first I now have full aggro on my 60 AL guy. Given that the only bar I ran AoTL on was a hero MM, he was using a superior death rune so when the enchantment was dropped they enemies were still all over my MM.

Jagged Bones for sure, considering the success of Sabway.

Back on topic... it still doesn't change the fact that the paragon has just as many if not more useful elites than the other professions. When you also consider that the paragon (and dervish) have the fewest elites in the game and they still have a greater number of better skills that certainly counts for something.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Oops, forgot about Crippling Slash. My bad, I do play paragon too much; not my fault they're the best PvE profession.
Yeah I know

Quote:
Sandstorm I didn't realize still saw play, as the few HA matches I generally watch are filled with Searing Flames. SF, as I mentioned, I didn't list because in my eyes it is a degenerate build; 5-6 SFers and two monks doesn't look healthy to me.
I was talking overall, Sandstorm was good and still decent in PvE (that's why I almost always bring Herta.

Quote:
I've never had any good experience with AoTL except that since they AI targets low health targets first I now have full aggro on my 60 AL guy. Given that the only bar I ran AoTL on was a hero MM, he was using a superior death rune so when the enchantment was dropped they enemies were still all over my MM. Aura of the Lich + Dark Bond + Infuse Condition + Mystic Regen = laff at mobs

Quote:
Jagged Bones for sure, considering the success of Sabway. Yeah, PvE players are split up like this.

40 % dumb builds
30 % Ursan
20 % Sabway
10 % original and/or good builds

MercenaryK

MercenaryK

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

What A Mess

W/N

When I first picked up Cautery Signet I used it with Remedy Signet, obviously. However I took that a step further as I was P/Me and used Mantra of Inscriptions(??), which reduces Signet's recharge time by 40% or so. Thus I went Motivation, Leadership, some Inspiration, and had Spear at 9.

I went and used Signet of Synergy. Pretty much I was a wussy monk (PvE which anything works) but there were hardly conditions around and I backed up the monks to make their life easier.

There's a use for those elites, you just have to get out of the mind set or quit assuming the same role. Switch it up some times. Yeah yeah, if you kill them quicker than they kill you it's all win win...... being all support isn't so bad if you're up for it.

Paragon elites are pretty good, each of them have their use. Song of Restoration ftw same with "It's just a Flesh Wound" : no casting time, 1s recharge, 5e, and you get deep wound, which again, Remedy Signet. Monks would die to do that.

Also, Cautery Signet + Plague Sending = massive fire duration for your foes. Each condition you remove from all party members (Your self included) you are on fire for 1 second. It can add up if everyone in the party is on fire.

wazz

wazz

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

WML, MELL, RUNI

P/

The only elite IMO that is really crap is Incoming (they should remove it cause rly no way to save it).

Than personally I find shunning strike to cost to much adraline (can be just me).

All the rest of the elite are ok they just won't see use due to normal pug set up and cause of them to be too much conditional (for instance :as said above: cautery signet, if more hostiles would use conditions it would see way more use).

(for instance all the elite anthems could own in a fully physical team set up but seeing all we really see in pugs is: nukers + monks + tank+ whatevah they still need to fill in a spot (with other words: cannon/mob fodder) ).

Personally I think there are but 10 totally wortless/crappy elite skills in the entire game. Most elites just don't see use due the mentality of pugs or cause none came up with a HA/gvg team use for it(yet).

I wouldn't say we paragons got crappy elites,... just pretty conditional or out-of-the-box ones.

Just my opinion.

Terraban

Terraban

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
40 % dumb builds
30 % Ursan
20 % Sabway
10 % original and/or good builds Gonna have to disagree with this.
80% dumb builds
10% Ursan
5% Sabway
5% Decent builds.

wetsparks

wetsparks

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
I'd have to include Spellbreaker, Obsidian Flesh, etc.. if I were to include Spoil Victor. I can't think of a necro bar outside of a solo build or Shiro in Cantha that would use Spoil Victor over an SS guy. I found SV very useful in places like the realm of torment and the ring of fire. Cantha there aren't very many places with enemies that had significantly more health than you to make it worth while, but almost every boss it can be used against.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraban
Gonna have to disagree with this.
80% dumb builds
10% Ursan
5% Sabway
5% Decent builds. Oh yeah that sounds right. I haven't pugged in yonks

GourangaPizza

GourangaPizza

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

R/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
The only elite IMO that is really crap is Incoming (they should remove it cause rly no way to save it).
Incoming used to be part of the gimmick Paragon-way team builds; it used to last around 6-7 seconds. So you have the whole team spamming Incoming in turns to keep it up constantly. Arenanet over-nerfed it just like they did to Avatar of Grenth.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

Soldier's Fury is actually rather good in the builds I often use, especially on heroes. Builds adrenaline like no tomorrow and does lots of damage in the process.

Ninian_Grace

Ninian_Grace

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2007

GWOnline

P/W

you find cruel spear, song of restoration and defensive anthem crappy?

I must dissagree with you on those...

Lets say they are ok skills.

you know what skill should be buffed? Enduring Harmony. instead of target ally...all allies. mmmmmm TNTF and SY. *drools*

wazz

wazz

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

WML, MELL, RUNI

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by GourangaPizza
Incoming used to be part of the gimmick Paragon-way team builds; it used to last around 6-7 seconds. So you have the whole team spamming Incoming in turns to keep it up constantly. Arenanet over-nerfed it just like they did to Avatar of Grenth. I know...
but it doesn't change the fact that it is the most worthless skill paragons got
+ I don't think there is a way to buff it without (re)causing the reason it was nerfed.

IslandHermet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraban
Gonna have to disagree with this.
80% dumb builds
10% Ursan
5% Sabway
5% Decent builds. these numbers seem more accurate.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by kullwarrior
Is it just me or Paragons have pretty crappy elites?
Crappiest
"Incoming!" nerfed to oblivion
"The Power Is Yours!" bad bad BAD
"It's just a flesh wound." actually its seen use in a nice N/Mo dark aura touch spike i seen once
Cautery Signet has its uses, quite good
Angelic Bond this is actually a very cool elite G
Stunning Strike BHA ranger owns this
Anthem of Fury bad for adrenaline buildup
Cruel Spear this one is gewd for spike assists G
Crippling Anthem i like antikite, although cripshot is better
Soldier's Fury aggressive refrain>this
Anthem of Guidance works well with rangerspike builds G
Song of Purification bad
Focused Anger check out the SY/TNTF build then G
Song of Restoration bad
Defensive Anthem GvG, unstrippable defenses! G
Survivable.. 5 of them there are very gewd - bolded my replies and put a "G" next to the ones imo are good

Thom Bangalter

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

MO

E/Mo

song of restoration is pretty common now that lod was nerfed; it's a pretty strong party heal.

Faer

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

Cruel Spear is awesome, and anyone who says otherwise is not. Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraban
Gonna have to disagree with this.
80% dumb builds
10% Ursan
5% Sabway
5% Decent builds. moar liek 90% Dumb, 8% Sabway, 2% [email protected] tbh.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

I don't get what people like so much about the post-nerf Aggressive Refrain. In PvE and especially when using heroes that skill is a nightmare. Dunkoro blows all his energy on removing cracked armor and heroes stink at e-management to begin with.
I have a hard time making a build that makes good use of both 'stand your ground' and refrain, while 'stand your ground' has much better synergy with soldiers fury.

wazz

wazz

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

WML, MELL, RUNI

P/

Well although Ar do is a pain with hero/hench (*sigh* mabye it is the way of anet to say grab a human team and stop frigging H/H everything... not like I'm the type to lissen though, I rather yell against the heros and hench than actually yell at their PUG variant).
It still is one of the hottest skills paragons got.

The power is yours --> looks like a great way to give energy to your teammates in HA/GvG as a necro with Br etc looks suicidal to me, also with the necro you (mine or less) gotta spend the rest of your bar towards the use of it... unlike the power is yours.

stunning strike--> Great skill IMO but to high adraline requirement IMO but still doesn't change the fact it is a nice skill

soldiers fury --> great synergy with other paragons

All anthems (except for defensive)--> great synergy if your group contains alot of physcial damage dealers.

it is just a flesh wound/ cautery signet--> both great ways to remove conditions. Both have there up/down sides.

angelic bond--> ah good old deep HM days. I love the skill.

cruel spear --> nice skill

song of purification--> nice way to remove conditions if your in an physical damage dealer group.

Song of Restoration --> Mallyx we will remember you in our prayers...

defensive anthem--> great skill in a team mainly containing off magic (ab)users

As I said before Incoming is the only skill ,we, paragons got that sucks.
They should just remove it
no way anet can fix it up to a decent lvl.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus
I don't get what people like so much about the post-nerf Aggressive Refrain. In PvE and especially when using heroes that skill is a nightmare. Aggressive Refrain is painful to use with Factions henchmen; for vanquishing I always had to take the ritualist henchmen because the [Healer Henchmen] have Blessed Light with its wonderful 3 second recharge. It's not too bad in Nightfall/EOTN since Mhenlo does all the work anyway, and in Prophecies it's a non-issue as neither monk has condition removal.

Terraban

Terraban

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
no way anet can fix it up to a decent lvl. Slightly weaker ToF, no condition, same recharge duration and cost?

Or ToF with no condition, but 15 cost.

Not like it loses its current role, since it doesn't have one besides +1 skill hunter.

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Aggressive Refrain, if anything is better in PvE. It increases the chances that the monsters will attack you and not the squishes and that's only good.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Aggressive Refrain is painful to use with Factions henchmen; for vanquishing I always had to take the ritualist henchmen because the [Healer Henchmen] have Blessed Light with its wonderful 3 second recharge. It's not too bad in Nightfall/EOTN since Mhenlo does all the work anyway, and in Prophecies it's a non-issue as neither monk has condition removal. And I'll be damned before I build a team without condi remove at all in it, so for me personally it's still right out.

wazz

wazz

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

WML, MELL, RUNI

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraban
Slightly weaker ToF, no condition, same recharge duration and cost?

Or ToF with no condition, but 15 cost.

Not like it loses its current role, since it doesn't have one besides +1 skill hunter. tof can be kept on all the time while incoming takes ages to recharge + last a wonderfull 3 seconds.

And an elite is supposed to be better than a normal skill

kullwarrior

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2006

Canada

P/

lol back when NF came out, 4 Incoming paragon at 12 or 16 command can upkeep it I think

Kyp Jade

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2006

USA

Lack of Talent [Luck]

P/

I need to find the thread where i said this so i can quote it, but

in pve, your lovely mesmer hero is good with draw, and doesnt are about energy much due to things like power drain

Terraban

Terraban

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
tof can be kept on all the time while incoming takes ages to recharge + last a wonderfull 3 seconds.

And an elite is supposed to be better than a normal skill I meant as a change for Incoming, not the current joke of a skill (notice I said skill, not elite, because this isn't even worthy of normal skill status).

I am pretty sure that a version of ToF with no condition would make it better than ToF. No condition would probably be too strong, so I said to lower the % reduction, or increase the energy cost to compensate.

wazz

wazz

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

WML, MELL, RUNI

P/

hmm yes that could work out decent but that would change the entire way the skill works.

GourangaPizza

GourangaPizza

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

R/W

Song of Purification is not bad. Look at it this way; your whole party are rid of conditions easily in condtions heavy area and your monks save a slot. A better alternative to Cautery Signet (15 secs recharge) IMO.

Terraban

Terraban

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by wazz
hmm yes that could work out decent but that would change the entire way the skill works. The skill doesn't "work" at all, so that is irrelevant.

wazz

wazz

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

WML, MELL, RUNI

P/

*sigh, you kinda asked*

The skill does work... it just doesn't work good.

Brian the Gladiator

Brian the Gladiator

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Michigan, USA

Us Are Not [leet]

E/

Wow... So much fail... you are sooooo baed!

Paragons are one of the most imbalanced classes in all of guild wars especially when spoken about in GvG.
The more paragons a team has is directly related to how much spiking power the overall build will have.
Another Great thing about paragons is that they have other purposes besides damage dealing that can make them that much better. A paragon can bring interrupts, defensive skills, and enchantment removal. All of these things are vital to a GvG team build and having them on paragons means the team will have that much more pressure to go along with their shutdown capabilities.

Before flaming what I am saying and telling me I am wrong, I want you to ask someone that is an experienced GvG player if paragons are significantly weaker than other classes. I can almost guarantee that they will be incredibly outspoken about how paragons are far superior to other classes.

Ask that same player who IS a weaker class and I can almost guarantee they will tell you the Necromancer is. Unfortunately, there are so many RA and HB scrubs in this forum that the Necromancer's utter failure in GvG is overlooked.

I predict that the only reason why people that visit these forums say that paragons are weak is because they only play RA, TA, HB, or PvE. My response to thses people is:

If you play RA, TA, or HB --> In a 4 man team, paragons are going to be weaker because their shouts are less effective because there are only 4 people for them to be put on. Also, the paragon's shutdown capabilities are somewhat limited to shutting down Aegises, Diversions, Defensive anthems, and other key skills that don't see as much play in the low level, arena style PvP matches.

If you play PvE --> You use mending wammos and think that Assassins are bad because they don't "tank" well... so your opinion simply doesn't matter.

EDIT: People are saying that "Incoming" is a bad skill. You couldn't be more wrong! You obviously don't know how to use it, for the same scrubby reasons above. Incoming is a great spike deterrent. Imagine you are fighting a spike group in a GvG, the Paragon can use Incoming right before the enemy team uses their spiking skills so, when the spike hits it's target, it does significantly less damage, thus saving the targeted player from a quick yet very painful death. The only reason why this skill isn't of use in the current meta is because spikes are no where near prevalent enough to necessitate an elite skill to deter them. If, some day, spiking does because a major factor in GvG, you may see more balanced groups bringing this elite.

GG

GloryFox

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

Quote:
If you play PvE --> You use mending wammos and think that Assassins are bad because they don't "tank" well... so your oppinion simply doesn't matter. and people in PvP wonder why there is so much hate from the PvE crowd.

wazz

wazz

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2007

WML, MELL, RUNI

P/

@ brian the gladiator:
eh you do realise we are discussing the usage of paragons elites (and how badly they suck/rock) ?

not the role of paragons in pvp nor ...gvg

And btw necros quite own in pve 3 n/rts heros = ownage
and the necro is also the only proffession that can make paragons stop spamming shouts ---> vocal minority *shivers* to cruel...

Also some people still don't seem to get the point of paragons... paragons own in groups and that is also the only way they can own... a paragon in a one on one is pretty death (well his biggest asset: namely his shouts will kill his energy).

Paragons aren't overpowered, some people just don't seem to understand em enough to efficiently counter em.

BTW: the paragon proffesion has on it's own no way to remove hexes *hint hint*