Since we've already completed the game on normal mode with heroes and henchmen playing with our toes, I propose a challenge for you veterans to get a fresh start for the game.
Rules are simple, but the mentality you must have might be a more difficult thing to adapt to. It's similar to Diablo II's "ironman" mode. First things first: make a new character for your account, since this can't be done with existing characters. Aim of the game is to finish the campaign (I recommend Prophecies) under these rules:
1. Don't use storage. Ever. That means no transferring items, materials and money from your level 20 characters. Pick up stuff from the ground and sell them. If you're really hardcore, don't use crafters either but instead wear collector armor and weapons.
2. Don't use heroes or henchmen. At all. Make a human party for every mission and quest (this will be the real challenge) and be on the lookout for opportunities to level up your character. If you can't get Monks, adjust builds to have self-healing capability. Do your best to help and guide your team to be as effective as possible.
Basic philosophy of this challenge is to get away from the attitude of being compelled to min-max everything and return to state when gaming was pure fun of exploring the world and "being a noob".
This would also be good thing to try for you ANET people to realize just what kind of game you've made.
PvE too easy? Try "no storage, only PUG" challenge!
aapo
Zinger314
That's completely and utterly pointless.
That doesn't make PvE more difficult; it makes PvE masochistic.
That doesn't make PvE more difficult; it makes PvE masochistic.
Redfeather1975
I would think the most fun way to make PvE harder is to play in small groups.
Small groups are fun!
When hard mode first came out people seemed to really like the old 4 player missions in hard mode.
Small groups are fun!
When hard mode first came out people seemed to really like the old 4 player missions in hard mode.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by aapo
Basic philosophy of this challenge is to get away from the attitude of being compelled to min-max everything and return to state when gaming was pure fun of exploring the world and "being a noob".
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Originally Posted by aapo
This would also be good thing to try for you ANET people to realize just what kind of game you've made.
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DarkNecrid
A game should be able to be hard enough to not have to come up with a million different player mode difficulty modes.
Mesmer in Need
Hay guyse! Lets complete the game with no armor on! It will be challenging and fun.
Vinraith
PUGing and "pure fun" are polar opposites.
Chicken Ftw
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Originally Posted by aapo
Make a human party for every mission and quest (this will be the real challenge) and be on the lookout for opportunities to level up your character. If you can't get Monks, adjust builds to have self-healing capability. Do your best to help and guide your team to be as effective as possible.
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Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Vinraith
PUGing and "pure fun" are polar opposites.
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Chicken Ftw
I don't have time to set up for a party that'll most likely fail the mission anyway, when I can keep my non-annoying H/H who actually listen and complete everything on the first try.
Also, I hate dem noobs. <_<
Also, I hate dem noobs. <_<
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
I don't have time to set up for a party that'll most likely fail the mission anyway, when I can keep my non-annoying H/H who actually listen and complete everything on the first try.
Also, I hate dem noobs. <_< |
Chicken Ftw
Which is why I posted it. 
aapo
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
But see, it's just not terribly fun anymore. It's like being able to beat Doom on the hardest difficulty and going back and playing through the game on the easiest setting.
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
What?
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1. How common people prefer to play. Just read what they're typing in chat and what they're requesting.
2. What are the biggest problems of Guild Wars as a social game. How well you found parties and what were the difficulties with them.
Thibor
I like the idea. That is the closest you will ever get to the feeling you got playing your very first character. No lvl 1 using weps your lvl 20 had in storage. Remember how it felt getting your first max dmg weapon drop. I do. I still pug whenever I get the chance and enjoy it.
Redfeather1975
PUGing can be fun when you're in the mood to take the good with the bad.
If I'm not in a rush to do anything in particular, I'll go and put together groups with people asking for help with a mission and more often than not I'll have fun simply because I had no expectations.
The mood I'm in is that it doesn't matter how well we do, simply that we are willing to keep trying in order to help someone. Yeah, sometimes we just couldn't do it, but it wasn't a waste in my eyes.
If I'm not in a rush to do anything in particular, I'll go and put together groups with people asking for help with a mission and more often than not I'll have fun simply because I had no expectations.
The mood I'm in is that it doesn't matter how well we do, simply that we are willing to keep trying in order to help someone. Yeah, sometimes we just couldn't do it, but it wasn't a waste in my eyes.
anonymous
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Originally Posted by aapo
pure fun of exploring the world and "being a noob".
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HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
I'd rather gouge out my eyes with a spoon and eat them. While being mauled by rabid raccoons and having my skin scraped off with sandpaper.
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I don't mind PUGing. I mind genitallia drawn on maps and people cursing and pinging "I'm wieling a Sundering Sword of Leetness" 80 times every 30 seconds.
You can't see me
Pardon me, I have a question. Why would I do this with the knowledge of PuGs and crafter armor I have?
aapo
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Originally Posted by Redfeather1975
PUGing can be fun when you're in the mood to take the good with the bad.
If I'm not in a rush to do anything in particular, I'll go and put together groups with people asking for help with a mission and more often than not I'll have fun simply because I had no expectations. The mood I'm in is that it doesn't matter how well we do, simply that we are willing to keep trying in order to help someone. Yeah, sometimes we just couldn't do it, but it wasn't a waste in my eyes. |
I always felt that having to face hardships makes the reward worth it, rather than just getting always rewarded by using the completely deterministic "win button" that H/H party has become. Also being able to coordinate PUGs will also help one's social skills, which makes big difference in PvP world where you have to succeed in human team.
Like said, it's a challenge for changing the perspective away from being flooded with luxuries to earning each thing and appreciating it.
ElinoraNeSangre
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Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need
Hay guyse! Lets complete the game with no armor on! It will be challenging and fun.
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... what? I can't be the only one thinking that the appeal here is a group of girls in underwear, can I?
That aside, I wouldn't want to complete the game with all PUGs; for someone with a life/job it would pretty much be impossible. But there's nothing wrong with PUGs, I actually rather like PUGs. I considered taking my monk through all of Nightfall and PUGging all missions, but I ended up chickening out. :P
Isison
why don't you try a "you farm and give me all gold" challenge?
aapo
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Originally Posted by You can't see me
Pardon me, I have a question. Why would I do this with the knowledge of PuGs and crafter armor I have?
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Q: I hate Guild Wars! Do I have to do this?
A: No, you don't. This is voluntary.
Q: PUGs are just baed. They can't do anything.
A: Which is why it's a challenge. If you're in PUG does that make you a bad player too?
Q: I hate people, I don't want to be near them.
A: You don't have to do this, it's a suggestion for those who don't mind playing with others.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by aapo
But that's the thing, when you have heroes and henchmen which follow your every command and use optimized builds for every situation, it makes the game seem much easier than it was originally intended (for non-optimal human parties that is).
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Secondly, you're saying that the game is challenging because of PUGs? The difficulty should be in the game and not with who I play with. That's a whole other problem in itself, and is one of the reasons I do play with heroes and henchies.
Also bear in mind that heroes and henchies are only as good as the player the uses them. If you give them to a newer player, they won't last long.
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Originally Posted by aapo
2. What are the biggest problems of Guild Wars as a social game. How well you found parties and what were the difficulties with them.
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This could very well be one of the reasons ANet wanted to move onto GW2, and I am very glad that it'll be entirely soloable. It's definantly the best (and maybe only) thing that MMO's can learn from Hellgate:London.
Of course the other problem is how shitty the playerbase is, but that can't really be helped.
aapo
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Secondly, you're saying that the game is challenging because of PUGs? The difficulty should be in the game and not with who I play with. That's a whole other problem in itself, and is one of the reasons I do play with heroes and henchies.
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Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by aapo
No. I'm saying difficulty of PvE was adjusted to be played with human party. It *was* challenging, near impossible to play with just henchmen on harder missions like Thunderhead Keep.
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Originally Posted by aapo
Then Nightfall just said, heck make your own synergistic henchmen and equip them with vigor runes too. No wonder everything is so easy and boring.
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The only difference is convenience and risk. Would you want to spend over 10 to even 30 minutes putting together the perfect human party or spend 10-30 seconds setting up one of AI? In terms of risk, heroes and henchies have none of those. They'll never bail on you in the middle of a mission or go AFK all of a sudden because their grandpa got run over by a car while he was getting Chinese food (that was an actual in-game excuse I heard.)
They may make the game look easier because they help you breeze through the game hella fast. But that's because you need nearly no downtime whatsoever. You don't have to wait for someone to use the bathroom, get something to eat, etc. Just log in, "Enter Mission", you're set.
Pleikki
I know how we could do it fun and hard! Complete game without using any skills!
just dmg from weaps :P
just dmg from weaps :P
zwei2stein
* There is no returning back to blisfull noob days. You cannot undo experience. It wont be fun again.
* Game is not easy because of heroes. Proof is, as said, Henching that opened eyes and existed before heroes: sooner or later everyone realizes that missions are not hard because they are designed to be hard, but because they are with incompetent people. for me that mission was Elona Reach. Decent build on heroes are just icing of cake.
* People tend to stabilize on whats most fun way to play game (that includes convenience and not failing). Seems like humankind is not fun to play with. Loosing is not fun.
* Gimping yourself is fun only if you are masochist.
What about you doing that challenge yourself and THEN report back with experience.
* Game is not easy because of heroes. Proof is, as said, Henching that opened eyes and existed before heroes: sooner or later everyone realizes that missions are not hard because they are designed to be hard, but because they are with incompetent people. for me that mission was Elona Reach. Decent build on heroes are just icing of cake.
* People tend to stabilize on whats most fun way to play game (that includes convenience and not failing). Seems like humankind is not fun to play with. Loosing is not fun.
* Gimping yourself is fun only if you are masochist.
What about you doing that challenge yourself and THEN report back with experience.
Zeek Aran
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
* Gimping yourself is fun only if you are masochist.
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arsie
You gotta PuG or AB once in a while to show off your rare skin weapons.
Zeek Aran
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Originally Posted by arsie
You gotta PuG or AB once in a while to show off your rare skin weapons.
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the Puppeteer
how about doing the game with no skills and only solo?
Sha Noran
PvE too easy? Try playing PvP instead of gimping yourself just for the sake of additional frustration. Honestly, it's going to be a slow frustrating grind to do as the OP suggested, so how about all of you PvE kids crawl out of your caves and try some IWAY.
Seriously, I hate when people suggest playing the game badly on purpose. Minesweeper isn't really hard, but that doesn't mean I'm going to click random boxes just to make it harder to win.
Seriously, I hate when people suggest playing the game badly on purpose. Minesweeper isn't really hard, but that doesn't mean I'm going to click random boxes just to make it harder to win.
Viruzzz
I hate to say this, but it's probably the stupidest challenge i have yet seen.
No storage is basically a luck gamble, if you get some decent weapons that you can salvage something from it makes everything easier then if you for example don't get a weapon your class can use.
This says nothing about the game-design, if you take a tool available to you and decide not to use it, then the problems you encounter has nothing to do with anybody but yourself, the problem only exists because you made it a problem.
human pugs, so many reasons this is stupid.
PuG's are generally not very capable, it takes an enormous amount of effort to get a decent team of 8 players, Why? because the decent players know that most people suck at the game, so they H/H it instead,saves them a lot of frustration
There's nothing *FUN* in trying to work with a bunch of egoistic teenagers who all think they're a freaking rocket-scientist
Judging the quality game by the people who play it doesn't make sense
You can not re-create the noob feel in a game you already know! It is impossible, you can't just leave your experience behind, you'll end up with a lot of frustration where you long ago felt amazement and accomplishment, because you know whatever you just did was done badly, and could easily have been done better and more efficiently.
If you want to be a noob again, find another game to play, a different genre, thats the only way you can recreate it.
No storage is basically a luck gamble, if you get some decent weapons that you can salvage something from it makes everything easier then if you for example don't get a weapon your class can use.
This says nothing about the game-design, if you take a tool available to you and decide not to use it, then the problems you encounter has nothing to do with anybody but yourself, the problem only exists because you made it a problem.
human pugs, so many reasons this is stupid.
PuG's are generally not very capable, it takes an enormous amount of effort to get a decent team of 8 players, Why? because the decent players know that most people suck at the game, so they H/H it instead,saves them a lot of frustration
There's nothing *FUN* in trying to work with a bunch of egoistic teenagers who all think they're a freaking rocket-scientist
Judging the quality game by the people who play it doesn't make sense
You can not re-create the noob feel in a game you already know! It is impossible, you can't just leave your experience behind, you'll end up with a lot of frustration where you long ago felt amazement and accomplishment, because you know whatever you just did was done badly, and could easily have been done better and more efficiently.
If you want to be a noob again, find another game to play, a different genre, thats the only way you can recreate it.
aapo
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Seriously, I hate when people suggest playing the game badly on purpose. Minesweeper isn't really hard, but that doesn't mean I'm going to click random boxes just to make it harder to win.
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Originally Posted by Viruzzz
Judging the quality game by the people who play it doesn't make sense
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Tyla
look at empty missions -_-"
QFT!
miss the old days
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Originally Posted by Viruzzz
You can not re-create the noob feel in a game you already know! It is impossible, you can't just leave your experience behind, you'll end up with a lot of frustration where you long ago felt amazement and accomplishment, because you know whatever you just did was done badly, and could easily have been done better and more efficiently.
If you want to be a noob again, find another game to play, a different genre, thats the only way you can recreate it. |
miss the old days
angmar_nite
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Originally Posted by aapo
Also being able to coordinate PUGs will also help one's social skills, which makes big difference in PvP world where you have to succeed in human team.
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Turtle222
crap idea
Complete waste of your life.
Complete waste of your life.
lyra_song
I've done the "No storage" challenge before when i got my Factions Monk.
Its actually not very hard if you aren't a martial class where you need optimum weapons.
I stopped when i reached lvl 20.
Its actually not very hard if you aren't a martial class where you need optimum weapons.
I stopped when i reached lvl 20.
Rexion
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Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw
I'd rather gouge out my eyes with a spoon and eat them. While being mauled by rabid raccoons and having my skin scraped off with sandpaper.
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This is more of a "like the good ole days" type of challenge. When all we had was 1 character and were basically poor. But it won't change the communities mind on respect. When games start, everyone is nice because they want help from others. Now that the community/economy has developed, there is no need for respect because they can get what they want themselves.
Chicken Ftw
Except it's not a challenge, it's an exercise in masochism. One that would frustrate the hell out of people who like to do things efficiently, and those who find fun in winning. Before you say it, I'm not antisocial. I play with my guild and friends all the time. If you think I'm going to abandon these good players for ones who think warriors are meant to be tanks and paragons are useless, you're insane.
This man speaks the truth. You've already been there, done that. While doing it all again this way is ok for nostalgia purposes, you won't have the same feeling as you did back in Proph beating THK for the first time, or whatever.
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Originally Posted by Viruzzz
You can not re-create the noob feel in a game you already know! It is impossible, you can't just leave your experience behind, you'll end up with a lot of frustration where you long ago felt amazement and accomplishment, because you know whatever you just did was done badly, and could easily have been done better and more efficiently.
If you want to be a noob again, find another game to play, a different genre, thats the only way you can recreate it. |