In Memory of Wintersday Past

3 pages Page 1
M
Mork from Ork
Lion's Arch Merchant
#1
Why did this last Wintersday seem so disappointing? After giving it a lot of thought, I believe the developers have lost their sense of community with the guild wars players.

The key to any multiplayer online game is that it is a group experience. The same game played solo on the PC would soon be forgotten once it had been completed a couple of time. The ability to interact with the other players is what makes or breaks an online game. And Guild Wars, as its name implies, had a tremendous sense of community. In this, the instanced play was a key ingredient. It removed the sense of competition and allowed you to choose with whom and when you would share your gaming experience. I have been frustrated and quit a couple of times but I have always come back, not because the game was great but because of the players.

Certain things the Devs have done have helped that sense of community. The Black Moa Chick was an excellent idea as people began to help one another find the ingredients and joined together to hatch the chick. for these things I have to give them credit.

But increasingly, it seems the Devs are losing their sense of the importance of the community in favor of the mechanics of economics and gameplay ever since the announcement of GW2.

This last Wintersday provide some extreme examples of that.

Their PR representative was lied to and consequently gave the community false information. As a consequence we will never be able to trust her again as a community. Even if she does tell us the truth, we will not know if she, in fact, has the information necessary. This is, I believe, an irreparable split between the Devs and the players.

Minis are important to many people simply because they are one thing you can show off and share with one another. They are a way of relating to the community. You can not show weapons in town and so minis, in spite of the fact they do nothing for the actual gameplay, have taken their place as ways of demonstrating what you have accomplished. You like to take out your most expensive mini and show it off. If you are like me, you don’t bother in places where you are alone. Yet the mini for this wintersday was placed in a quest that forced you to do it solo and placed in such small numbers that it was guaranteed to cause frustration and jeaolousy.

The Grenth ice hat – I don’t care that it was ugly. I have gotten ugly hats in the past. No big deal. You show them to the hat guy and trash them and don’t look at them again. But this time it felt like a slap in the face. Why? Because the one element that the Devs asked the community for input on was changed in a way that removed the charm of the winning artwork. The ice was made flat and lifeless. The heart of the one real piece of input from the community was thrown away and replaced with something unattractive.

Yes, there were good things in this wintersday event. But, by and large, they were the things from previous years. The new things showed an inattention to the community that is disturbing.

Other things can be pointed out, of course:

The unfinished feel of EotN. You get the sense in things like polymock, armors with poor antialiasing and a mismatched armor set that there was a great idea behind them but that they weren’t quite finished when released. I get the sense that instead of saying, “what can we do to really please people,” the attitude was, “let’s get this over with so we can get on with GW2.”

Or the BMP which not only forces you to play solo but rewards you with customized weapons you can never sell or give away.

I would also include the heavy handed nerfing of easy farm runs. From an economic or mechanics view things like the shiverpeaks runs and ugrgoz vamp trapping (not suicide) farms may seem to need nerfing. But things like them provided opportunities to play the game with new and different partners. With runs being easy and rewards being fairly high you could join a pug without worrying who had what skills or who might do the wrong thing at the wrong time. If things didn’t work out you had only wasted a few minutes instead of hours. Urgoz and the Eye were full of people who got tired of farming and decided to try the mission or even people offering to show inexperienced players how to do the mission effectively. Friends were made who went on to do other quests and missions together. That is gone now – Urgoz echoes like a graveyard and the Eye is once again just a way station on the road to other places. The only place I can still find groups that are just fun is Tombs of Primeval Kings. Nerfing may be necessary, but it should be done carefully and with an eye to the impact it will have on community. I will not join Pugs in most other missions and high end areas because they simply don’t give you a chance to know the other players. You are thrust into a situation where a mistake can mean disaster and loss of an hour or more of work. They do not create bonding but tension. Moderately easy, high reward situations creates bonding that leads to trying harder things with people you enjoy. They don't need to be as extreme as Urgoz and Shiverpeaks were. But there should be several opportunities that provide moderate ease with moderately high reward. There are very few of those in the game and getting less all the time.

In the end, community is the key ingredient unique to multiplayer games, and especially to Guild Wars. It’s loss will not mean the death of Guild Wars 2 – any new game will find a market for a while. And friendships and Guilds already formed will hold on for quite some time. But it does mean the ghost of Wintersday future is looking cold and lonely while something unique and beautiful is slowly disappearing from the Guild Wars experience.

So, please Devs, start playing your own game again so that you remember what it meant to be a community and can make sure that sense of fellowship does not die in the birth of GW2.

In memory of Wintersday Past

Ok - you can flame away now.
Angelic Upstart
Angelic Upstart
Krytan Explorer
#2
Well written
zwei2stein
zwei2stein
Grotto Attendant
#3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork from Ork
...
Their PR representative was lied to and consequently gave the community false information. As a consequence we will never be able to trust her again as a community. Even if she does tell us the truth, we will not know if she, in fact, has the information necessary. This is, I believe, an irreparable split between the Devs and the players.
...
PR Lied about something regarding wintersday? Facts, not general statements please.
Rhedd
Rhedd
Wilds Pathfinder
#4
You had me until the "the unfinished feel of EotN."

Yes, they're moving on to GW2 WAAAY too early, and should be kicked for that, but GW:EN is still the most fun I've had playing GW in ages!

Even if my new, beautiful, Norn Ranger armor was one of those reskins that people enjoy crying about so much, I'd still be having a blast playing GW:EN.

EDIT: zwei2stein, he's referring to Gaile specifically stating the mini polar bear was a false rumor, but it was found to be actually true on like, the last day of the festival. Now anyone that wants one gets to fight over the tiny handful in existence, or wait until next year.
s
strat_53711
Ascalonian Squire
#5
Well written, your thoughts mirror what I posted regarding gold drops and pug groups.
L
Leslie
Frost Gate Guardian
#6
I still had fun this year doing the quests and grabbing presents with my girlfriend, but snowball arena turned into a kiddies' daycare centre full of "omg u noobs" and "lols ur gonna get pwned", after in the first and second years it had been lighthearted silly fun. Also the way that presents in towns could be hidden from grentches and never respawn was irritating; and, lastly, the drop rate on the mini polar bear is so horrendously low i doubt more than 10 people will end up with one by the end of the event.
I D E L E T E D I
I D E L E T E D I
Wilds Pathfinder
#7
Nice post, but you beat around the bush alot. If you wanted to say make MINI POLAR BEAR availbale to everyone just say it.
But lets face it, the community will QQ alot and Anet will be a bunch of idiots saying "You will have a chance next year". Yeah right 1 mini isnt worth the waste of a whole year in a game thats economically is dead and the fun factor is slim to none. Only reason i can find my self to log on these days is because of the poeple i have met on this game, not the game itself, and that wont be changing anymore anyway. Once people have finished off what they want to achieve, they will leave either leave or log on to chat.
They could have made a neat little quest with this polar bear which required you to play with other people. Find XYZ and so on. Sadly Anet have lost either their Creativity or they simply cant be arsed anymore with GW1
Lil Mystique
Lil Mystique
Academy Page
#8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie
I still had fun this year doing the quests and grabbing presents with my girlfriend, but snowball arena turned into a kiddies' daycare centre full of "omg u noobs" and "lols ur gonna get pwned", after in the first and second years it had been lighthearted silly fun. Also the way that presents in towns could be hidden from grentches and never respawn was irritating; and, lastly, the drop rate on the mini polar bear is so horrendously low i doubt more than 10 people will end up with one by the end of the event.
QFT the snowball arena felt different this year, but I still had fun and the new Rift Warden quests were a nice addition..even though it's a farmfest now ;p
L
Leslie
Frost Gate Guardian
#9
Quote:
Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I
Nice post, but you beat around the bush alot. If you wanted to say make MINI POLAR BEAR availbale to everyone just say it.
But lets face it, the community will QQ alot and Anet will be a bunch of idiots saying "You will have a chance next year". Yeah right 1 mini isnt worth the waste of a whole year in a game thats economically is dead and the fun factor is slim to none. Only reason i can find my self to log on these days is because of the poeple i have met on this game, not the game itself, and that wont be changing anymore anyway. Once people have finished off what they want to achieve, they will leave either leave or log on to chat.
They could have made a neat little quest with this polar bear which required you to play with other people. Find XYZ and so on. Sadly Anet have lost either their Creativity or they simply cant be arsed anymore with GW1
i didn't quite literally mean make the bear available to everyone, but i'd prefer we had to work for it; for example i like how we have to collect items and go places and go to final assault to make the black moa chick. It's creative and complicated, and a very cute mini that many people can enjoy. I guess it's disappointing they didn't do something similar for the mini polar bear, and instead made it into a luck of the draw grindfest where the odds of finding one are quite possibly mathematically insignificant.

Edit: say, for example, you had to do the grenth quest line to defeat Ursula the White (the mini polar bear's model comes from her) and they could have given us a new quest line or something for the mini, whereby we might have had to (for Dwayna) go back to where we killed Ursula (for Grenth), find her red ribbon and bell, take it back to Grandfather Kringle and undergone another quest to have ursula ressurected as a Miniature. Just an example; pretty much anything would be better than hours of grind with as much chance of winning the National lottery.
B
B/P_Ranger
Academy Page
#10
/Signed

//I've watched IRL friendships feel the strain from tension created by GW since hard mode and EoTN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork from Ork
Why did this last Wintersday seem so disappointing? After giving it a lot of thought, I believe the developers have lost their sense of community with the guild wars players.

The key to any multiplayer online game is that it is a group experience. The same game played solo on the PC would soon be forgotten once it had been completed a couple of time. The ability to interact with the other players is what makes or breaks an online game. And Guild Wars, as its name implies, had a tremendous sense of community. In this, the instanced play was a key ingredient. It removed the sense of competition and allowed you to choose with whom and when you would share your gaming experience. I have been frustrated and quit a couple of times but I have always come back, not because the game was great but because of the players.

Certain things the Devs have done have helped that sense of community. The Black Moa Chick was an excellent idea as people began to help one another find the ingredients and joined together to hatch the chick. for these things I have to give them credit.

But increasingly, it seems the Devs are losing their sense of the importance of the community in favor of the mechanics of economics and gameplay ever since the announcement of GW2.

This last Wintersday provide some extreme examples of that.

Their PR representative was lied to and consequently gave the community false information. As a consequence we will never be able to trust her again as a community. Even if she does tell us the truth, we will not know if she, in fact, has the information necessary. This is, I believe, an irreparable split between the Devs and the players.

Minis are important to many people simply because they are one thing you can show off and share with one another. They are a way of relating to the community. You can not show weapons in town and so minis, in spite of the fact they do nothing for the actual gameplay, have taken their place as ways of demonstrating what you have accomplished. You like to take out your most expensive mini and show it off. If you are like me, you don’t bother in places where you are alone. Yet the mini for this wintersday was placed in a quest that forced you to do it solo and placed in such small numbers that it was guaranteed to cause frustration and jeaolousy.

The Grenth ice hat – I don’t care that it was ugly. I have gotten ugly hats in the past. No big deal. You show them to the hat guy and trash them and don’t look at them again. But this time it felt like a slap in the face. Why? Because the one element that the Devs asked the community for input on was changed in a way that removed the charm of the winning artwork. The ice was made flat and lifeless. The heart of the one real piece of input from the community was thrown away and replaced with something unattractive.

Yes, there were good things in this wintersday event. But, by and large, they were the things from previous years. The new things showed an inattention to the community that is disturbing.

Other things can be pointed out, of course:

The unfinished feel of EotN. You get the sense in things like polymock, armors with poor antialiasing and a mismatched armor set that there was a great idea behind them but that they weren’t quite finished when released. I get the sense that instead of saying, “what can we do to really please people,” the attitude was, “let’s get this over with so we can get on with GW2.”

Or the BMP which not only forces you to play solo but rewards you with customized weapons you can never sell or give away.

I would also include the heavy handed nerfing of easy farm runs. From an economic or mechanics view things like the shiverpeaks runs and ugrgoz vamp trapping (not suicide) farms may seem to need nerfing. But things like them provided opportunities to play the game with new and different partners. With runs being easy and rewards being fairly high you could join a pug without worrying who had what skills or who might do the wrong thing at the wrong time. If things didn’t work out you had only wasted a few minutes instead of hours. Urgoz and the Eye were full of people who got tired of farming and decided to try the mission or even people offering to show inexperienced players how to do the mission effectively. Friends were made who went on to do other quests and missions together. That is gone now – Urgoz echoes like a graveyard and the Eye is once again just a way station on the road to other places. The only place I can still find groups that are just fun is Tombs of Primeval Kings. Nerfing may be necessary, but it should be done carefully and with an eye to the impact it will have on community. I will not join Pugs in most other missions and high end areas because they simply don’t give you a chance to know the other players. You are thrust into a situation where a mistake can mean disaster and loss of an hour or more of work. They do not create bonding but tension. Moderately easy, high reward situations creates bonding that leads to trying harder things with people you enjoy. They don't need to be as extreme as Urgoz and Shiverpeaks were. But there should be several opportunities that provide moderate ease with moderately high reward. There are very few of those in the game and getting less all the time.

In the end, community is the key ingredient unique to multiplayer games, and especially to Guild Wars. It’s loss will not mean the death of Guild Wars 2 – any new game will find a market for a while. And friendships and Guilds already formed will hold on for quite some time. But it does mean the ghost of Wintersday future is looking cold and lonely while something unique and beautiful is slowly disappearing from the Guild Wars experience.

So, please Devs, start playing your own game again so that you remember what it meant to be a community and can make sure that sense of fellowship does not die in the birth of GW2.

In memory of Wintersday Past

Ok - you can flame away now.
Elendor The Elf
Elendor The Elf
Academy Page
#11
You make some good points Mork. I've known in the back of my mind that something was off about the community lately, but I don't think I ever realized it. Now that you mention it, there has been a decreasing snense of community lately.

Also, another thing I have noticed to add to your list is...

What ever happened to UW/FoW?

Since they changed the system for favor of the gods, favor is no longer much reason for excitement. Especially coming from the American district, it used to be so great when we would get favor. I remember when my guild and alliance would all cheer when America began to take the Hall of Heroes. Then if we got favor, everyone would head to the appropriate outposts to make teams and go to the Underworld and Fissure of Woe. Now, the world has favor 90% of the time and it is nearly impossible to find a party for the UW or the FoW. I check out Zin Ku Corridor occasionally, only to find that it is a ghost town. In addition, the Hall of Heroes is less important. Winning it for your region no longer gives benefits (at least I don't think it does), and it no longer gives a sense of unity throughout each region. I think the new system was a good idea, but maybe it's time that it is revised again.

Also, like B/P Ranger said, I have noticed that friendships on Guild Wars are straining. I think it might also be a result of people loosing interest in Guild Wars, possibly due to all the reasons which were pointed out.
pygar
pygar
Lion's Arch Merchant
#12
OK.

It was my first festival, I'd have to say you should be more appreciative that NC has events at all. The polar bear thing is fine- except that they cant win that situation....no new mini, ppl think the devs are slacking and dont care... New mini that everybody can get, people will be mad its too common and that everybody has one.Ah heck, lets just face it....your not even chafed about wintersday this is about treasure....which yes GW needs its treasure system tweeked badly. The devs seem to believe in keeping things rare to maintain value, which has its merits....but they dont see and hear the anger in people that play their game...the anger that comes from scraping whole map areas and barely getting 2K worth of stuff, only to go to a city and be totally in awe of the people trading things for more platinum than the game even lets you carry at any given time. My favorite is sharing my gold and item drops with heroes and henchies, and then having to pay for thier equipment- thats the one that kills me. The rarity of the Polar mini wasnt the problem...at least not entirely.... the ideal approach would have been to make several new minis and at least hint to people somehow of thier existence in wintersday treasure....took people all the way up until after midnight last nite to finally stop disbelieving in its existence.

anyways, I hope you can get back to havin fun with the game...maybe if we are lucky A-net will "fix" things complained about here somehow.
R
Riot Narita
Desert Nomad
#13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork from Ork
Why did this last Wintersday seem so disappointing?
I didn't find it disappointing at all.

Still, I continued reading and I think you do have some valid points - except I never thought EotN felt unfinished, and I think community spirit is alive and well once you find yourself a good guild - and it's always been that way. Outside of your own guild the community has sucked for almost as long as I can remember (for the most part, there are always exceptions... and your guild will try to recruit the "exceptions" ;-D). Maybe it sucks even more these days, but I have always stuck to my guild most of the time and am largely unaware of the ups and downs in the wider GW community.
I D E L E T E D I
I D E L E T E D I
Wilds Pathfinder
#14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie
i didn't quite literally mean make the bear available to everyone, but i'd prefer we had to work for it; for example i like how we have to collect items and go places and go to final assault to make the black moa chick. It's creative and complicated, and a very cute mini that many people can enjoy. I guess it's disappointing they didn't do something similar for the mini polar bear, and instead made it into a luck of the draw grindfest where the odds of finding one are quite possibly mathematically insignificant.
I totally agree with you here. Anet should have made this pet just like the Black Moa.
Weirdly enough 2 days before the thread on GW online, my friend and i talked about a new mini and a mini polar bear, reindeer and penguin. And how anet could make a nice wintersday quest with this mini as reward at the end. The mini polar bear was her favourite out of the onces suggested between us. And i was rather pissed off when i found it acctualy did exist and how you were able to aquire it.
Lil Mystique
Lil Mystique
Academy Page
#15
Quote:
Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I
I totally agree with you here. Anet should have made this pet just like the Black Moa.
Weirdly enough 2 days before the thread on GW online, my friend and i talked about a new mini and a mini polar bear, reindeer and penguin. And how anet could make a nice wintersday quest with this mini as reward at the end. The mini polar bear was her favourite out of the onces suggested between us. And i was rather pissed off when i found it acctualy did exist and how you were able to aquire it.
Lol, my bf and I discussed a mini Ursula before the event as well. I even capped a polar bear and named it Ursula when EOTN came out. ;p
L
Leslie
Frost Gate Guardian
#16
I could just imagine it, having to go back to where Ursula was defeated, getting her bell, then say snowballing your way through the grentches lair to find a, say, tonic of grenth that would be required to ressurect ursula as a mini. perhaps then you'd have to find an actual polar bear, get within adjacent range and use the tonic on it to creat the minitaure. At least something more involved and creative than enter quest, run to end, kill, open, repeat x 1000.
Big_Iron
Big_Iron
Desert Nomad
#17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie
i didn't quite literally mean make the bear available to everyone, but i'd prefer we had to work for it; for example i like how we have to collect items and go places and go to final assault to make the black moa chick. It's creative and complicated, and a very cute mini that many people can enjoy. I guess it's disappointing they didn't do something similar for the mini polar bear, and instead made it into a luck of the draw grindfest where the odds of finding one are quite possibly mathematically insignificant.
Exactly! Anet fumbled the ball IMHO. If this was made available through achieving some really difficult Winterday quests, rather than grinding the same one over and over and over again, there'd be a lot less complaining. Some people would still complain, but I think for the most part, the community would have been happier.
pygar
pygar
Lion's Arch Merchant
#18
And I agree the Black Moa chic quest is a golden idea that for some reason A-net just doesnt seem to realize...there should be way more quest only things like that in the game..... it's the %chance of drops for grinding/farming that makes people nuts about "values" of things (or lack of value)

Also Bonus Mission packs gripe: it doesnt bug me that the weapons cant be sold, it bugs me that I didnt even start he game in time to catch the promo, and just get to stare at quest NPCs that mean nothing to me, and The BMP seems to be an incentive to buy stuff online thru NCsoft, but the mission pack isnt available as something to buy thru NCsoft....smart stuff. (In general, A-net or the devs or whatever just doesn't seem to get how bad people dont like being left in the cold....this game is really good at making newer players feel like they are on the outside lookin in)

Anyways, back to mah coffee...was up til 3am last nite "farming" for polar bear

P.S. doubt Gail Grey was "lied to"....it's more likely that she wasnt told, or that she was told to keep a lid on it.... I believe the former over the latter because gail and the devs may not even speak the same primary language, or just might not speak often....and cant come up with any good motive for keeping it hush-hush.
Vilaptca
Vilaptca
Pre-Searing Vanquisher
#19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mork from Ork
This last Wintersday provide some extreme examples of that.

Their PR representative was lied to and consequently gave the community false information. As a consequence we will never be able to trust her again as a community. Even if she does tell us the truth, we will not know if she, in fact, has the information necessary. This is, I believe, an irreparable split between the Devs and the players.

Minis are important to many people simply because they are one thing you can show off and share with one another. They are a way of relating to the community. You can not show weapons in town and so minis, in spite of the fact they do nothing for the actual gameplay, have taken their place as ways of demonstrating what you have accomplished. You like to take out your most expensive mini and show it off. If you are like me, you don’t bother in places where you are alone. Yet the mini for this wintersday was placed in a quest that forced you to do it solo and placed in such small numbers that it was guaranteed to cause frustration and jeaolousy.

The Grenth ice hat – I don’t care that it was ugly. I have gotten ugly hats in the past. No big deal. You show them to the hat guy and trash them and don’t look at them again. But this time it felt like a slap in the face. Why? Because the one element that the Devs asked the community for input on was changed in a way that removed the charm of the winning artwork. The ice was made flat and lifeless. The heart of the one real piece of input from the community was thrown away and replaced with something unattractive.

Yes, there were good things in this wintersday event. But, by and large, they were the things from previous years. The new things showed an inattention to the community that is disturbing.
Honestly, nobody was lied to here. The rest of the dev team doesn't have to tell Gaile everything. And she doesn't have to tell us everything she knows. It's nice to have surprises every once in a while. She didn't tell us there was no mini polar bear, she said she didn't know. I seem to remember her not knowing about the mini Ghostly Hero either.

Also, the wintersday quests last year from the rift warden were solo too. Personally though, think of how lame it would be if we had to LFG for half an hour for FUN Wintersday quests. What a waste of time during the holiday season.

Oh and I wish people would get over the hat. Nit-pick about more dumb stuff please.

You should delete the rest of your post after that. As it has absolutely nothing to do with Wintersday present or past.
LifeInfusion
LifeInfusion
Grotto Attendant
#20
You're overreacting. The Arenanet was on vacation and Gaile probably was not give forewarning of the polar bear thing.

As for the ice crown, you know on the submission page the disclaimer that it will not look exactly like the submission? They told us beforehand.

Minis not = accomplishment. Minis = play a long time, open a chest (Mallyx), win a contest (Kanaxai, Vizu, etc.) or buy it.