Haven't seen any official info released on this yet, I don't think. I'm assuming that since character power will be essentially uncapped, it wouldn't make much sense to cap item power, or at least it wouldn't be necessary.
So what will it look like? Will weapons 'level' along with the person who's using it? Will we see 100% Charrslayer mods dropping that have a minimum level req to apply or wield properly? Will there be additional layers of mods that don't exist now and that simply won't function in structured PVP (so, on top of inscription/pommel/hilt -which are the only legal mods in GVG - they could add blades, sharpening methods or tools, hilt wrappings, tassels, etc.)?
For anyone worried about imba weapons in competitive PVP, I'm assuming they will have no trouble coming up with a method of temporarily nerfing uber weapons while they're being used in that environment.
GW2 Itemization
semantic
Danax
We don't know...yet
Redfeather1975
There's been no confirmation that character power will be uncapped.
Only that it's possible that there will be high character level cap or no character level cap.
Nothing about what that even means in relation to power level.
Could mean the number beside your name goes up past 20 and that's all there is to it.
We simply don't know.
Only that it's possible that there will be high character level cap or no character level cap.
Nothing about what that even means in relation to power level.
Could mean the number beside your name goes up past 20 and that's all there is to it.
We simply don't know.
stuntharley
Maybe they should put in boobie tassels, and we walk around doing peircing damage and cause blind.
~ Dan ~
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Originally Posted by Danax
We don't know...yet
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I Will Heal You Ally
Yeah maybe they even won't raise the attribute points and health/energy everytime to reach new level... They say so much, but at the end it just might be disappointing just like HoM at the beginning when they announce it's existence
Yawgmoth
This is a topic of top high interest for me. I really hope this time they do it right.
The best way would be combining the concept of no max level cap with flat power level curve. So there's no such thing as a 'perfect' weapon (max=boring), but possiblity of always getting something (even a tiny bit) better (or different). The best item system should be friendly for all types of players, casual and hardcore, should allow endless character development, without clearly set 'tiers' of equipment, so nobody will feel obliged to grind for 'next' ones and no gear based discrimination exist. Large variety of item types and mods, random generation of item stats with no max values, so even old veterans after years of play can still find something to hunt for.
And no possibility to build any item with any wanted stats from scratch - this greatly reduces the value and coolness of drops, all moddability should work just for adjusting a weapon for your build or playstyle.
And we shouldn't worry about competetive PvP as we know it will be separated from PvE world, thus unaffected by it's imbalances.
The best way would be combining the concept of no max level cap with flat power level curve. So there's no such thing as a 'perfect' weapon (max=boring), but possiblity of always getting something (even a tiny bit) better (or different). The best item system should be friendly for all types of players, casual and hardcore, should allow endless character development, without clearly set 'tiers' of equipment, so nobody will feel obliged to grind for 'next' ones and no gear based discrimination exist. Large variety of item types and mods, random generation of item stats with no max values, so even old veterans after years of play can still find something to hunt for.
And no possibility to build any item with any wanted stats from scratch - this greatly reduces the value and coolness of drops, all moddability should work just for adjusting a weapon for your build or playstyle.
And we shouldn't worry about competetive PvP as we know it will be separated from PvE world, thus unaffected by it's imbalances.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Redfeather1975
There's been no confirmation that character power will be uncapped.
Only that it's possible that there will be high character level cap or no character level cap. Nothing about what that even means in relation to power level. Could mean the number beside your name goes up past 20 and that's all there is to it. We simply don't know. |
Also, the sidekick system as described says it will raise the sidekick to the level of the main character, so that also supports a higher level = more powerful character system.
Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth
And we shouldn't worry about competetive PvP as we know it will be separated from PvE world, thus unaffected by it's imbalances.
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Unbalanced PvE sucks. Unbalanced PvE is situations like the end game in Gothic II, where you're basically a god - or ridiculious scale-to-level junk like in Oblivion.
The people who complained about that PvE has been linked to PvP were the farmers, because the ideal PvE to them holds no challenge at all. If - as the inclusion of ridiculous skills like Ursan Blessing suggest - ANet is really trying to make farmers happy, then GW2 is in deep dodo, because what farmers want is a "kill all enemies in the zone and retrieve the loot" button, and if they got it they'd still whine about it being available to other players (cutting in to their profits).
Chrono Re delle Ere
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Originally Posted by I Will Heal You Ally
Yeah maybe they even won't raise the attribute points and health/energy everytime to reach new level... They say so much, but at the end it just might be disappointing just like HoM at the beginning when they announce it's existence
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I'ts a different game from Guild Wars, we can also expect walking-men-eater-Pies as mobs, we don't know ANYTHING
Longasc
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Actually I think we should worry about that separation.
(...) GW2 is in deep dodo |
I think GW2 is going to smell, judging from the few design ideas we heard of so far.
This is not going to become the evolution of Guild Wars 1, this is rather a devolution.
Back to the roots, ANets re-invents the Standard MMO. Levelgrind, Itemdriven, Titlegrind.
Ironically, the link to PvP might prevent some ideas that could turn GW into another Asia grinder. Because of the need for balance and lack of uber-items.
ANet embraced all kinds of grind in GWEN, and they hopefully do no think they found the ultimate new means of non-level-based character development! GWEN and the hall reward repetitive actions and playing one char only. Skill efficiency is tied to the title tracks, the hall is based on mostly char-based achievements, too (I still see us crying because they add an imba GW2 reward to one title and useless rewards to others, or make them all crap and whatever... OK, I will stop here, enough bitching about the Hall of Monuments...^^).
If they go the itemization route, they should just admit:
The Guild Wars concept of equal levels and gear failed.
In this case they should create two separate games, Guild Wars (PvP) and World of Guildcraft (PvE), which is nothing else but the stone old level-/item-based mmorpg formula, and no longer the spirit of the original Guild Wars: Prophecies.
Isileth
Yeah I really hope there isnt anyform of extra power or better gear in PvE.
People seem to think that the balance only needs to apply to PvP which is incorrect.
Its an online game, so even when not directly competing with other players in PvP you are still effecting them. Be it through the economy or getting a group anything like that.
When people can become more powerful by spending time grinding or farming, buying the "best" eq etc. It does effect others.
Plus lets face it, how many other MMOs already do that? GW is one of very few games that support skill>time. That gives them a much more open market to play in, step into time>skill and you suddenly have to fight with all the others for customers.
People seem to think that the balance only needs to apply to PvP which is incorrect.
Its an online game, so even when not directly competing with other players in PvP you are still effecting them. Be it through the economy or getting a group anything like that.
When people can become more powerful by spending time grinding or farming, buying the "best" eq etc. It does effect others.
Plus lets face it, how many other MMOs already do that? GW is one of very few games that support skill>time. That gives them a much more open market to play in, step into time>skill and you suddenly have to fight with all the others for customers.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Longasc
ANet embraced all kinds of grind in GWEN, and they hopefully do no think they found the ultimate new means of non-level-based character development! GWEN and the hall reward repetitive actions and playing one char only. Skill efficiency is tied to the title tracks, the hall is based on mostly char-based achievements, too (I still see us crying because they add an imba GW2 reward to one title and useless rewards to others, or make them all crap and whatever... OK, I will stop here, enough bitching about the Hall of Monuments...^^).
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I'd much rather have a traditional leveling system in GW2, than the Title Track pseudo-levels of Guild Wars.
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Originally Posted by Longasc
If they go the itemization route, they should just admit: The Guild Wars concept of equal levels and gear failed. In this case they should create two separate games, Guild Wars (PvP) and World of Guildcraft (PvE), which is nothing else but the stone old level-/item-based mmorpg formula, and no longer the spirit of the original Guild Wars: Prophecies. |
Subject to change, of course.
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Originally Posted by Isileth
Yeah I really hope there isnt anyform of extra power or better gear in PvE.
People seem to think that the balance only needs to apply to PvP which is incorrect. Its an online game, so even when not directly competing with other players in PvP you are still effecting them. Be it through the economy or getting a group anything like that. When people can become more powerful by spending time grinding or farming, buying the "best" eq etc. It does effect others. Plus lets face it, how many other MMOs already do that? GW is one of very few games that support skill>time. That gives them a much more open market to play in, step into time>skill and you suddenly have to fight with all the others for customers. |
Face it, Guild Wars success is for the most part because of the quality of the game with no subscription fee. I personally think the level cap actually HURT sales, and was not a selling point for the majority of players. Obviously, Anet believes that also, or else GW2 would be capped at level 20 as well.
Isileth
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Well, why do we need balance in PvE? If killing monsters is fun, why is it less fun to kill monsters at level 1 than at level 20?
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But I must say, I along with many others still join and continue to play games using fixed or even a no level system. Its not as if they dont do well, infact they last a lot longer that most games in my experience because players can start of comeback late into the games lifespan and not be years behind others just because they have been grinding or farming the best gear.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Isileth
In the current game I would say thats down to having limited access to skills and the game being very, very easy at the start.
But I must say, I along with many others still join and continue to play games using fixed or even a no level system. Its not as if they dont do well, infact they last a lot longer that most games in my experience because players can start of comeback late into the games lifespan and not be years behind others just because they have been grinding or farming the best gear. |
But, honestly, this whole jealousy of higher level characters is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if I'm a level 12 noob in WoW, as long as I am having fun.
When people start trying to keep up with the Joneses, that's when games stop being fun, and start being work... and probably a sign said person should quit playing. Because even in Guild Wars, there is somebody out there with some item that doesn't exist anymore and you'll never be able to get...
Redfeather1975
The low level cap in GW was also done for accessibility.
They wanted people to be able to group with other people and not worry about level differences getting in the way.
GW2 is said to have a companion system that would somehow circumvent that obstacle in a high level cap game. We'll just have to wait and see what they got in store.
They wanted people to be able to group with other people and not worry about level differences getting in the way.
GW2 is said to have a companion system that would somehow circumvent that obstacle in a high level cap game. We'll just have to wait and see what they got in store.
Mordakai
Or, making GW2 soloable is also a solution (with scalable mobs in instances).
Redfeather1975
That would not solve the problem of friends not being able to group because of level differences.
A problem I faced often in EQ2 and WoW, was that I simply did not play as much as my friends so I ended up no longer being able to play alongside them. In a small part it is why I eventually left.
I got bored with my main character and starting a new one in a game with a high level cap is really demoralizing, especially when I was having great difficulty in developing lasting friendships due to my casual play time increasing the level gap between myself and my friends.
I remember in WoW, the last guild I was in, I was told to level up faster as I was getting way behind. I ended up leaving that guild and playing solo for a while. Solo play is not my thing. I could not keep it up and at the same time I could not easily find people who were leveling up at the same rate I was. I felt very much alone playing that game during the last few weeks leading to my quitting. I would often sit in towns and just talk to strangers or private chat with friends as they did the high level stuff. It was getting depressing as my incentive motivation to play was slowly dying.
Guild Wars 2 really should stick to a system that avoids that.
A problem I faced often in EQ2 and WoW, was that I simply did not play as much as my friends so I ended up no longer being able to play alongside them. In a small part it is why I eventually left.
I got bored with my main character and starting a new one in a game with a high level cap is really demoralizing, especially when I was having great difficulty in developing lasting friendships due to my casual play time increasing the level gap between myself and my friends.
I remember in WoW, the last guild I was in, I was told to level up faster as I was getting way behind. I ended up leaving that guild and playing solo for a while. Solo play is not my thing. I could not keep it up and at the same time I could not easily find people who were leveling up at the same rate I was. I felt very much alone playing that game during the last few weeks leading to my quitting. I would often sit in towns and just talk to strangers or private chat with friends as they did the high level stuff. It was getting depressing as my incentive motivation to play was slowly dying.
Guild Wars 2 really should stick to a system that avoids that.
Bryant Again
I don't find high-levels concerning in GW2 because A. The whole thing is soloable and B. The companion system will buff up lower level players in your group to be as strong as you.
This is my biggest dream with GW2 right here, along with the companion scaling system.
In terms of itemization, I think the only thing we know is that there'll be no profession specific armor.
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Or, making GW2 soloable is also a solution (with scalable mobs in instances).
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In terms of itemization, I think the only thing we know is that there'll be no profession specific armor.
Isileth
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
True, Guild Wars is wonderful in that regard.
But, honestly, this whole jealousy of higher level characters is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if I'm a level 12 noob in WoW, as long as I am having fun. When people start trying to keep up with the Joneses, that's when games stop being fun, and start being work... and probably a sign said person should quit playing. Because even in Guild Wars, there is somebody out there with some item that doesn't exist anymore and you'll never be able to get... |
When people refuse to accept you in a group/guild because you arent level x.
When you cant team with people because you dont have "Gharots Magical armour of fire resistance +6".
If the game was completely single player no, it would not matter.
But its an online game, and as I said before that means even in PvE when you dont directly compete with others level grind and elite eq all have an effect.
The Great Al
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I don't find high-levels concerning in GW2 because A. The whole thing is soloable and B. The companion system will buff up lower level players in your group to be as strong as you.
This is my biggest dream with GW2 right here, along with the companion scaling system. In terms of itemization, I think the only thing we know is that there'll be no profession specific armor. |
2. Not having profession-specific armor doesn't really make sense, either aesthetically or stats-wise. Did they really say this is happening?
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by The Great Al
1. They never said the whole game was soloable. I don't know why anyone would even want an online game such as this to be entirely soloable. Just play oblivion. There are many games out there that have a better single player, offline experience than GW.
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They didn't say the whole game would be soloable, but they did say that you wouldn't need a party for the missions and dungeons...so I'd say that's soloable.
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Originally Posted by The Great Al
2. Not having profession-specific armor doesn't really make sense, either aesthetically or stats-wise. Did they really say this is happening?
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Isileth
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Originally Posted by The Great Al
1. They never said the whole game was soloable. I don't know why anyone would even want an online game such as this to be entirely soloable. Just play oblivion. There are many games out there that have a better single player, offline experience than GW.
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Oblivion is nothing like GW. Yet people use this argument all the time.
And just because people dont group with random players doesnt mean they shouldnt be playing an online game.
A lot of players will go solo and in teams, but they will only play in a team with friends.
Some people are there for PvP and when in PvE dont want to be playing with others.
Some people dont have the time to group and so just go solo or grab AI. (whatever applies to the specific game)
And also, some people just dont want to play with others. An online game does not have to be played in a group with others, its just there are others in the game.
Redfeather1975
I'm starting to have a distinct feeling that GW2 will share a lot of the design elements we saw in EotN.
Character progression in EotN didn't restrict story progression.
The story used a hub type map with multiple plot line paths, dungeons and zones emanating from the Eye of the North area. Those types of elements along with the companion system make me believe they want grouping with friends to be as convenient and accessible as possible.
It sounds like they want us to be able to group with friends without worrying about leveling to keep up with each other, while still facilitating some kind of character progression, and not have to travel great distances to unlock the areas where your friends are, while still having many areas to explore.
Character progression in EotN didn't restrict story progression.
The story used a hub type map with multiple plot line paths, dungeons and zones emanating from the Eye of the North area. Those types of elements along with the companion system make me believe they want grouping with friends to be as convenient and accessible as possible.
It sounds like they want us to be able to group with friends without worrying about leveling to keep up with each other, while still facilitating some kind of character progression, and not have to travel great distances to unlock the areas where your friends are, while still having many areas to explore.
The Great Al
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Originally Posted by Isileth
It strikes me as odd here.
Oblivion is nothing like GW. Yet people use this argument all the time. And just because people dont group with random players doesnt mean they shouldnt be playing an online game. A lot of players will go solo and in teams, but they will only play in a team with friends. Some people are there for PvP and when in PvE dont want to be playing with others. Some people dont have the time to group and so just go solo or grab AI. (whatever applies to the specific game) And also, some people just dont want to play with others. An online game does not have to be played in a group with others, its just there are others in the game. |
Buster
Nothing written in stone yet but on the wiki it has been stated that the plateau of power will be cut off at a certain level. So if the plateau is lvl 30 and you are lvl 60 that means you are no stronger than a level 30 which is kind of silly. There is really no reason to be a higher level than the plataeu of power then other than for show which means absolutely nothing in a game.
As far as items we all have no idea how they are going to be handled. You definitely won't be seeing people spamming max lvl swords req 9 for sale anymore :P
As far as items we all have no idea how they are going to be handled. You definitely won't be seeing people spamming max lvl swords req 9 for sale anymore :P
Sha Noran
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Originally Posted by stuntharley
Maybe they should put in boobie tassels, and we walk around doing peircing damage and cause blind.
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Mordakai
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Originally Posted by The Great Al
1. They never said the whole game was soloable. I don't know why anyone would even want an online game such as this to be entirely soloable. Just play oblivion. There are many games out there that have a better single player, offline experience than GW.
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Anet wants to make their games playable by the most people possible. I'd expect much of GW2 to be "soloable" in one way or another, even though it's been said GW2 will not have Henchies/ Heros.
Redfeather1975
The game wasn't originally meant to be soloable.
The henchmen were there to make full groups more accessible.
I suppose certain things like trying to hench THK way back when, eventually lead to changes that allowed people to solo with henchies. Then they went full nilly with heroes, because what they heck.
The henchmen were there to make full groups more accessible.
I suppose certain things like trying to hench THK way back when, eventually lead to changes that allowed people to solo with henchies. Then they went full nilly with heroes, because what they heck.
The Great Al
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Originally Posted by Buster
Nothing written in stone yet but on the wiki it has been stated that the plateau of power will be cut off at a certain level. So if the plateau is lvl 30 and you are lvl 60 that means you are no stronger than a level 30 which is kind of silly. There is really no reason to be a higher level than the plataeu of power then other than for show which means absolutely nothing in a game.
As far as items we all have no idea how they are going to be handled. You definitely won't be seeing people spamming max lvl swords req 9 for sale anymore :P |
fowlero
I don't think anet will screw up on this no limit/high limit level.
My speculation is that it will be like 1-20 in GW1 just over a larger leve spread, say 1-50.
After that the level has no further effect and is in essence a title, which may or may not have links to possible pve skills etc as the norn/asura/dwarf/vanguard rank titles do now.
Maybe...
My speculation is that it will be like 1-20 in GW1 just over a larger leve spread, say 1-50.
After that the level has no further effect and is in essence a title, which may or may not have links to possible pve skills etc as the norn/asura/dwarf/vanguard rank titles do now.
Maybe...
mazey vorstagg
I think the curve will just get flatter and flatter.
So, lvl 1-30 might make a huge difference each lvl stat wise (e.g. +40 hp each lvl) . But 30-60 is much less (e.g. +20hp each lvl) and 60-90 is less (+5hp)
until you have to gain 10 more lvls to get +1 hp.
E.g. at lvl 150 you reach 3000hp and you have to get lvl 170 to get 3001hp.
Power will change less as you get higher and higher up.
Obviously those who play more will be more powerful, but not by much.
So, lvl 1-30 might make a huge difference each lvl stat wise (e.g. +40 hp each lvl) . But 30-60 is much less (e.g. +20hp each lvl) and 60-90 is less (+5hp)
until you have to gain 10 more lvls to get +1 hp.
E.g. at lvl 150 you reach 3000hp and you have to get lvl 170 to get 3001hp.
Power will change less as you get higher and higher up.
Obviously those who play more will be more powerful, but not by much.
Ouchie
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Originally Posted by Chrono Re delle Ere
We don't even know if they will still use attribute points
I'ts a different game from Guild Wars, we can also expect walking-men-eater-Pies as mobs, we don't know ANYTHING |
Maybe one could spawn after you have played one hour and two after two hours and so on and so on until well too many spawn for you to live anymore.
and a new title - Pie eater
Balan Makki
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Originally Posted by Redfeather1975
I'm starting to have a distinct feeling that GW2 will share a lot of the design elements we saw in EotN.
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I really like what EoTN has done, and would love to see this system on a massive game-wide scale. Likely, levels will just give attribute points for a single character to spend on Multiple Classes, rather than just One Primary, multi secondary. "Need a monk??, Oh yeah, I leveled my monk attributes last week, I'll just switch my warrior gear out and I can heal tonight ... . "
Bryant Again
I kinda feel, since they stated that parties won't be required for missions and dungeons, that monks will be much more than healing. Since the Paragon's probably gonna go, I'd assume that Monks would in their place not only provide some healing, but a lot of buffs as well.
How is this likely?
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Originally Posted by Balan Makki
Likely, levels will just give attribute points for a single character to spend on Multiple Classes, rather than just One Primary, multi secondary. "Need a monk??, Oh yeah, I leveled my monk attributes last week, I'll just switch my warrior gear out and I can heal tonight ... . "
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Buster
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Originally Posted by The Great Al
I'm kind of expecting/fearing this too, that there's still not going to be any incentive to actually gain experience. Like, getting access to a new armor set or new mini pet every million experience isn't going to do it for me.
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Aerian_Skybane
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Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg
I think the curve will just get flatter and flatter.
So, lvl 1-30 might make a huge difference each lvl stat wise (e.g. +40 hp each lvl) . But 30-60 is much less (e.g. +20hp each lvl) and 60-90 is less (+5hp) until you have to gain 10 more lvls to get +1 hp. E.g. at lvl 150 you reach 3000hp and you have to get lvl 170 to get 3001hp. Power will change less as you get higher and higher up. Obviously those who play more will be more powerful, but not by much. |
After a certain level, attribute points, or the similar proxy in GW2 (if it even works this way of cours), are no awarded anymore, but a level and inverse-exponetially increasing amounts of health and energy still are.
That would be a nice touch that can give some grinders a somewhat more tangible "elite" status while not really affecting the general gameplay. This of course should probably (and looks like it would) be capped for PvP play, to a similar vain of how it is now.
After a certain curve breakpoint, maybe a higher level character has access to vanity items non-hardcore players would not care as much about, such as our precious 15k armors. This would be a way to tangibly (again with that word!) give "rewards" to grinders/completionists/elitists without unbalancing the game.
Though I give this leveling-idea a two thumbs up, it of course matters on how the game is implemented. If skills are affected by higher HP or E that can be used more efficiently by a hardcore grinder, then clearly that would break the casual nature of general combat, and would make this system ridiculous in one way or another.
But I kinda like the idea so I think it would be fun to continue to develop as a character while being able to maintain a casual world.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Aerian_Skybane
This is what I would like to see actually. It would be a perfect system that allows completionists and grinders to "complete" and "grind" themselves for titles, while allowing casual players to "max out" at a relative normal pace that precludes them from grind.
After a certain level, attribute points, or the similar proxy in GW2 (if it even works this way of cours), are no awarded anymore, but a level and inverse-exponetially increasing amounts of health and energy still are. That would be a nice touch that can give some grinders a somewhat more tangible "elite" status while not really affecting the general gameplay. This of course should probably (and looks like it would) be capped for PvP play, to a similar vain of how it is now. After a certain curve breakpoint, maybe a higher level character has access to vanity items non-hardcore players would not care as much about, such as our precious 15k armors. This would be a way to tangibly (again with that word!) give "rewards" to grinders/completionists/elitists without unbalancing the game. Though I give this leveling-idea a two thumbs up, it of course matters on how the game is implemented. If skills are affected by higher HP or E that can be used more efficiently by a hardcore grinder, then clearly that would break the casual nature of general combat, and would make this system ridiculous in one way or another. But I kinda like the idea so I think it would be fun to continue to develop as a character while being able to maintain a casual world. |
Aerian_Skybane
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
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There needs to be some incentive to level though, that also doesn't disadvantage the casual player that "maxes" out at the point break, or as I said, the "attribute point" break.
Sirius-NZ
Logarithmic curve.
Things keep increasing, but exponentially slower as it goes up.
OR - levels get exponentially harder to get (Diablo 2-style).
Things keep increasing, but exponentially slower as it goes up.
OR - levels get exponentially harder to get (Diablo 2-style).