Hero Control Center survey

Hi all,

I would like to ask around whether you guys would be interested in a tool to control you hero skill usage. I can (in fact, for personal use I already do) write a program that processes your key presses and turn them into mouse clicks on your hero control panels. That program would basically add two features to the GW client which I feel are missing, namely controling your heroes' skills and being able to use the Shift key, Alt key, etc., to create many more hotkeys. Your feedback would be welcome.

The only feedback I have is I am not sure a tool like that is allowed.

The only thing I'd love to see is heros moving out of the damn aoe already!

BTW, is that even allowed ?

I don't know if it's allowed, but I've posted that question on Gaile's wiki talk page.

edit: the reason I've posted this here was to see if there's even interest for such a tool.

Its good you asked. If it is allowed, they are essentially shortcuts allowing more hotkeys, which would be handy as regards Heroes, although its right on the edge of automating some of the activities if taken only ever so much further in a chain of commands. I'd be curious to see what Gaile said.

edit: The reason I and so many others are very cautious is third party software use for the game is pretty much bannable territory. I'd stop using it pronto until you got your answer from Gaile. If she says ok (I'd be surprised) then maybe see if there is interest.

3rd party program, bannable abuse of the EULA, beware your account may get banned.

Honestly I would rather not be involved in a discussion about legality unless coming from an official source, because the tool I propose does not act automatically, and thus the question of "automated play or not" is no easily answered IMHO. Even a mouseclick simulator to reach the Incorrigible Ale Hound is more automated than my program would be. I'll keep you updated on the legality if Gaile doesn't post here directly, but for now, assuming the tool was legal, would you like to try it out?

Meh. Use of a mouseclick simulator to max the Drunkard title should result in a ban for someone who used it, imho. I in fact would have assumed this to be already the case, but you're implying that slides by under the radar, which has me wondering just what other things are going on out there.

No comment from me if I wish to use third party software under any assumptions, but I will meet you halfway and say were Anet to introduce a way to add some more shortcuts for use for Heroes, sure, that would be handy. That might include Gaile approving your project.

edit: The more I think about it, I cant even meet you halfway, but that's just me. The first thing that comes to mind for me with "heroes and hotkeys" is chaining a set of hotkeys with one master hotkey. Even if that isnt your intent, its the first thing most anyone would try to do, unless there was a built in limitation of some sort. Seems like a can of worms to me. See what Gaile says and then gauge interest if its ok'd is my opinion.

Aera: The drunkard bot does kind of slide under the radar. Gaile wrote on http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:...g_questions...

So I didn't want to say that my tool would fly under the radar or that it wouldn't be a bannable offense. What I did want to say is that ANet does differentiate between "levels of evilness" of such tools that directly modify or automate gameplay. Since my tool does the same as the game already does (translating single keystrokes into single game actions, for example activating skills) and nothing else, I hope for an approval from ANet.

Games like City of Heroes and World of Warcraft allow these kind of macros, because they're for convenience rather than automated gameplay.
Not going to mean that Anet will decide it's fine to use, but the point is, don't let actual bots and macros designed to play the game for you prejudice you against this.

An example function I'd imagine would be being able to assign pet Attack, Guard, and Heel modes to 9, 0, -. Nothing you couldn't do with a mouse, but much faster if you're already playing with the 1-8 hotkeys for skills.

Similarly, hotkeying some important hero skills would be great. Lock the heroes out of naturally using say, enchantment removal, and map them to 9, 0, and -, and there you go. It's ready when you need it, and you use it more organically than having 3 hero windows open and mousing over them to hit it.

Thank for the support. I take it from a hardcore WoW player living next to me that fully automated and of course bannable bots have been written with nothing but the modding/macro tools Blizzard provides for WoW, and the UI modding scene for WoW is, quite frankly, insane. They have hundreds of tools and widgets and info screens to give players willing to install them a huge edge in PvE and PvP gaming. Now GW is not and should not be WoW, but I understood the GW User Agreement clause about bots in the way that _automated_ play is the most important thing to be discouraged, and everything else is open for discussion.

Yeah, there's the thing really: hotkeys vs macros. I'm fine with the former and not with the latter. We already have access to some hotkeys. Having more is innocuous in and of itself. Having them from a third party source seems to need Gaile's input.

And let me add I was never meaning to imply one thing or the other regarding your tool. Just to point out potential misuse and the hope it could be avoided. Good luck whichever way it goes.

I think that you should fight enemies, not your GUI.

So, this is nice idea (alt+# for hero 1, etc ... very neat), but i would stop development untill anet says "OK" on it, otherwise you are basically throwing your account away.

Is it a program?
Is it a program made by and released by Anet?

If the answer to those 2 questions is Yes, and No, then it is not allowed by the EULA. 3rd Party Programs are restricted, and although 'allowed' by Anet, even something like Texmod can be used as a ban if Anet so decided. Your idea is to allow for something the game does not allow to be used. Yes, you can do all that stuff with mouse clicks. But it takes some skill to be able to do those things effectively. Having a hero, instead of a real player is sometimes more trouble than its worth. Making heroes as good as a player, means the game goes even more to single player mode. I not only do not want to see this happen, but doubt Anet will ever allow it to happen knowingly.

do people still HB? if so you want to be careful. real careful.

MagmaRed, I think in your interpretation of the UA you're being more strict than ANet themselves. If you would ban every program related to GW but not released by ANet, you would make yourself liable for a ban if you used as much as a character tracker or a damage calculator. Even something a GW wiki other than the official one would be running on a third-party software. This fan forum's software was not released by ANet, so is it a bannable offense to use it to discuss the game? Of course not, that's why you need to differentiate on a case-by-case basis. The _main_ intention of this clause of the UA is to prohibit automated play programs, i.e., performing a lot of game play with little or no user interaction.

Regarding texMod: Your stance that ANet could at any time decide to turn around and ban everyone using texMod to modify their client is, while theoretically possible, very unlikely in practice, to say the least. See http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide...phics#ArenaNet. The worst they say about texMod is that they offer no support in case of a broken client, which is entirely reasonable.

If people can (and have) been banned for such benign reasons as transferring money between main and mule accounts, I find it difficult to believe that this will somehow be deemed fine. You also have to remember that Gaile and Anet's support department are two entirely separate entities, as she often points out. The support department, that is near the point of collapse given how understaffed they are, may not give anyone the benefit of doubt. Why risk it?

Sounds like a great idea, i expect Anets stance to be very lenient on this considering it doesn't modify the client and doesn't give you a significant advantage.

What language you thinking of using, C++ ?

I think you should ask on Gaile's Wiki page.

You said yourself you are not interested in our opinions, but only in official statements.


Nevertheless, given the example of WoW, I will add my opinion towards macros, scripts etc.:

It has gotten out of hand in WoW, and should be strictly prohibited in GW.

As a Paladin, my scripts decide and do for me what I told them:

* When I press Flash of Light or Healing Light, it decides which level to cast, so it does not overheal and conservers Mana.
* It decides whether to use purge or the other one. Forgot the names. The first spell only cleanses poison, the second magical effects as well - it makes the perfect decision for me.
* I can autobuff the whole group with a few clicks, everyone will get the buff I told the script. I will also be reminded when they wear off and asked to re-buff.

... there are also scripts to walk from one flight point to another and whatever.

This is getting too much.


Your hero control center idea is not like that, still, it opens a similar can. I actually like the limited options we have to customize our UI, we can customize it, but not automatize it. Texmod is in general rather innocent, but with spirit range display and stuff that the normal UI cannot offer, it also begins to leave the even playground.

You know what sometimes happens after patchday?
WE CANNOT RAID TODAY, MY UI/MACROES ARE NOT WORKING ATM!
If you do not have the more popular WoW mods, forget raiding...


We better get totally away from this in GW and GW2. See it as your personal skill in clicking buttons that is wanted. This is why I think we should not even begin with that.

If you have a nice improvement for the AI, it should be suggested to ANet. Cosmos UI e.g. became the template for Blizzard's own improved WoW interface.

Just throwing another idea out here, once you got the framework in place you could add another feature:

Chicken - use somthing like GetPixelColour() to check if the healthbar is empty at say 1/3. Then make it hit a self heal. or quit GW - Would save a lot of survivors.

^Might cross the line with Anet though :P

Um, does this forum do anything to/with GW? Nope. Your program would be interacting with the game. HUGE difference there. They don't care if you make a program to hack their game and send viruses to everyone who logs on. They care if you use that program. The comparison of a forum, and software DESIGNED TO WORK WITH THE GAME, is completely idiotic. Until Guru makes it so these forums allow you to load builds posted into your game, there is no comparison.

What you are proposing is a program to play the game for you. It is far more basic than a 'bot' program may be, but it is allowing someone to do things not available by using a 3rd party program. It is botting.

Now, I understand YOU may not be making it in such away to do things not available to everyone else. But that doesn't mean someone won't adapt your program to do more than you intended. Even your limited use of it is more than what I believe Anet to allow, and if detected, people using it would be banned.

Hmm, an interesting idea. I've already thought of stuff like this. It wouldn't be a bad idea, but it would make the area of Hero Battles a bit unfair to those who have this program. Also not to mention, this program would basically be a set of macro keys that tell your mouse to push that skill and return to the original location, which basically means that this is the step before making a bot so I don't know about this.

Well the proposed program is alot more innocent than TextMod so i expect its fine.

Indeed!

While I already make high use of Hero Priority skilling, turning some off, and position flagging. But it bothers me that no matter what, they will stay inside the boundaries of an AoE and by the time I realize it, canceling my flags and repositioning them costs valuable time in some cases (depends on the AoE afterall).

Forgive me, I don't remember the name of the game, it was many years ago, but it had a similar property in the game like GW where you can group yourself with AI party members. It didn't have the customization GW has, but it did have a few Party Related actions such as all out attack, defensive stance, support, block, and a few others. One of the other ones was known as "Scatter".

It was a simple button on your party command interface that, when pressed, would call on your AI party to run about 10 steps in the opposite direction they were facing at the time you pressed it. After they ran the 10 steps, they would proceed with whatever action they were attempting prior to running.

I guess you could almost call it a "Run for your life!" command.

I would love, love, LOVE to have a similar action in Guild Wars. Considering we can call a target to charge our AI into a battle, it feels weird to not have the ease of ability to have them run out of, or retreat from danger at a "click" when needed.


Anyways, sorry to go a bit off-topic (I think), but I wanted to make that addition.

1. Input macro bots are definitely a bannable offense. (To me, this sounds like a pretty harmless macro bot -- maybe even a beneficial one -- but it's an input macro bot nonetheless.

2. Whenever a NEW forum member shows up and starts offering to provide game-related programs in their very first day here, I am ALWAYS suspicious that those programs might contain a keylogger or other nasty stuff.

FeroxC, it is mostly Java with C++ to recognize the key presses, and yes, that sort of automated play would definitely cross ANet's and, for what it's worth, my line.

Longasc, I see where you're coming from. However, there's a difference I can see: my tool would not add anything fundamentally new to the UI, like more info screens or target info or whatever. Unlike the WoW modding tools, I can only access what the client gives me in plain sight, and I cannot create new panels or whatever. Because of that, my tool can only act as an extension of the player's eyes and hands if you will; if a player is in principle unable to do something or see something because the client won't let him through the standard UI, then my tool will not enable him to do/see that. In that regard, texMod is actually more intrusive, because it gives players new info. I believe that is quite an important difference because the hard limits set by ANet still remain in place. Since the tool stays on the same mechanics level as the player using it, I also expect the issue of OH NO PATCH DAY to be non-existant and even more so when considering that GW1 is not likely to see many fundamental changes in the future.

That was, for me, the main reason that the tool is not a bad idea. There are also a couple of points that I believe make it a good idea:

More Hero builds: Better control of Heroes allows for more intricate Hero builds that require a little (or a lot) more situational thought than the current Hero AI can hope to provide. Currently, most players have more than enough to do with controlling their own play; to get anything out of their heroes, they have to give them a fire-and-forget build which typically performs at best mediocre when compared to a human player controlling the same build. GW has been solo-friendly from day 1, so this tool would not be out-of-character, speaking in RPG terms.

Modability: There are only few classic games lasting till today that are not moddable, because almost no game has such lasting appeal out of the box (plus official patches) as to survive the combined onslaught of new games/game mechanics and improving graphics (no counter-examples please, I know they exist). Regarding the state of GW1 in 5 years or so, that's mere speculation of course, but it's my conviction that a thriving mod community does not hurt a game more than it helps. Additionally, ANet has clearly stated that the company's focus has mostly shifted to GW2, so I consider this tool a contribution to this game's modding community and to the game itself.

Last but not least, if the tool is in fact ok with ANet and should it find acceptance, then it might be a hint to the game designers what people want and what could be included in future installments of the series (yes, I'm dreaming a little here, but it COULD happen). ANet's vision of the GW series is not set in stone; to the best extent possible, they will adapt to what they believe players want, which they have proven more often than many other game developers in the past.

Well I'm not very active here, no, so that's a valid objection from your point. To dispel such worries, I would reveal every single line of code used in the project, so you are free to check out the code or even compile it yourself if you like. If both are not realistic options for you, you can wait for feedback from more trusted members who did either.

Im happy to check his source if any1 wants, ive had experiance with c++ & java .

MagmaRed, please cut down on the harsh language, calling my comparison idiotic and such. You made a blanket statement that every software not released by ANet may not be used with GW, and that is simply not true. You mentioned using TexMod is a potentially bannable offense. I provided evidence that this is not the case according to Gaile Gray and Emily Diehl, so I'm not sure why you insist on your point. As you can see in this thread, there is no clear opinion voting either for or against the legality of my proposed tool, and neither am I sure, but you speak with a certainty as if you represented ANet.

I'm not sure why you are here then. All you're going to get here is opinions. Nobody here can say for sure. All you're giving is your opinion also. Theres no reason to get upset, its all opinions, and until you go to the right place, thats all you're going to get here.

Have you even sent anything about this to support or are you just relying on Gaile's talk page?

In my opinion, if you use this, you will be banned. What you are suggesting is pratically a bot program.

Mhh, would have to read the EULA, but, ehm, how about when you're using a drawing pad rather then a mouse? Should one consider it's driver and software to be a third party program? And, otoh, what if someone modified and compiled an automation tool, a bot, for their own use? That wouldn't be a third party program, strictly speaking.


And that's bad how or why? Even if it did, that is not sufficient reason to allow ANet toforbid specific interfaces.

Chthon
Join Date: Apr 2007

Roland of Gilead
Join Date: Aug 2005

Someone can't read?

I'm glad you didn't take that the wrong way (like a certain flamer who posted below you did...). Being able to inspect and compile your code for myself would adequately dispel my concerns about your macro containing anything malicious. (Then, if only it weren't a bannable offense, I might even consider using it. )

Join date means nothing if there's no postings and forum presence to back it up with.

OK, I've submitted a support ticket and at least they didn't reject the idea outright. Instead it got escalated to a "Senior Customer Support Representative", so it appears to be a tricky question at least.

All I ask for is a Spread Out!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@ button

QFT. I remember in Myth: TFL, besides having a bunch of formations for your team, you could press X and they all scattered in random directions.

You can't ignore my comments, but you'll ignore those of a mod? How come you haven't commented on someone else saying virtually the same thing I said?

I don't use third-party anything, and I never will.

MagmaRed, I am grateful for your and vilaptca's and everyone else's input on the matter. The reason why I don't respond to opinions about the tool's legality is simply that it leads nowhere unless the contributor is someone who is fully able and authorized to speak on ANet's/NCSoft's behalf regarding this matter, which I suppose nobody in this thread so far is. I have repeatedly expressed that position at the beginning of the thread, I refer you to my first 3 posts in this thread. All I ask for is if there is interest in the tool at all, assuming for the sake of the argument that it was legal. I will keep this thread updated with what Gaile and Customer Support have to say about it; other than that, I would rather discuss the tool itself.

I understand that. I don't think you understand your biggest mistake however. This is a forum, where people DISCUSS things. If you didn't want a discussion, you should have never posted here. The only people who CAN comment on its legality OFFICIALLY are Anet employees, and not even all of them can.

Since nobody here CAN comment OFFICIALLY, all you have is discussion. Considering many of the people who post messages here are well versed in the EULA, Anet policies, and the law, you may find some good info in such a discussion.