While Autohotkey and other similar APIs for setting up keyboard/mouse macros are indeed powerful and can perform the described tasks, these are not the best choice for programming hero controls, as you lose mouse control while the commands are being issued.
Having to let go of the mouse, wait for the command to issue, and then return focus, is somewhat clumsy, and defeats the purpose of having an automated script. However, if you were planning on implementing this using a more sophisticated approach (e.g., forgoing the keyboard/mouse hooks and working directly with system calls a la C++, as you hinted), then I would be interested in seeing your implementation.
In general though, the game's innate latency between commands issued and commands followed by the heroes make an exercise like this very interesting to work with, but practically, possesses very little usefulness.
Hero Control Center survey
seekjy
FeroxC
Yea idealy if you could get it to function without moving the mouse about all over the place, it would be great.
If your going the system calls route these links might be helpfull.
Find window
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...99(VS.85).aspx
LeftButtonDown message - get this working and you might be sorted
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...07(VS.85).aspx
SendMessage
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms644950.aspx
If your going the system calls route these links might be helpfull.
Find window
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...99(VS.85).aspx
LeftButtonDown message - get this working and you might be sorted
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...07(VS.85).aspx
SendMessage
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms644950.aspx
Miska Bow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead
Hi all,
I would like to ask around whether you guys would be interested in a tool to control you hero skill usage. I can (in fact, for personal use I already do) write a program that processes your key presses and turn them into mouse clicks on your hero control panels. That program would basically add two features to the GW client which I feel are missing, namely controling your heroes' skills and being able to use the Shift key, Alt key, etc., to create many more hotkeys. Your feedback would be welcome. |
......with no risk of ban
Roland of Gilead
Quote:
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I understand that. I don't think you understand your biggest mistake however. This is a forum, where people DISCUSS things. If you didn't want a discussion, you should have never posted here. The only people who CAN comment on its legality OFFICIALLY are Anet employees, and not even all of them can. Since nobody here CAN comment OFFICIALLY, all you have is discussion. Considering many of the people who post messages here are well versed in the EULA, Anet policies, and the law, you may find some good info in such a discussion. |
Quote:
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4. Hijacking Threads Thread hijacking is the act of trying to steer a web forum discussion thread off topic by discussing a subject entirely unrelated to the subject at hand. This is an intentional act of taking the thread off at a tangent to the original subject matter at hand. The results are often provoke a feeling of resentment from the author of the original post. |
Roland of Gilead
Quote:
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Originally Posted by seekjy
Having to let go of the mouse, wait for the command to issue, and then return focus, is somewhat clumsy, and defeats the purpose of having an automated script. However, if you were planning on implementing this using a more sophisticated approach (e.g., forgoing the keyboard/mouse hooks and working directly with system calls a la C++, as you previously hinted), then I would be interested in seeing your implementation.
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Edit: I don't exactly know whether or not I'm discussing this with a Windows programming guru, but as far as I understand it, going after the keyboard hooks is about as low-level and efficient as it gets. More to the point, in Windows it's about the only way to intercept key presses for a program that does not have window focus. And when you say I should go directly for the system calls, what do you believe does the Java Virtual Machine do when I tell it to simulate a mouse click? We are talking at most about miliseconds difference between the possible approaches, which is nothing compared to the uncertainties and possible lags involved with network connection and the Hero AI.
Miska Bow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead
I'm not a native English speaker, so forgive me if I'm not exactly sure where I made a mistake in formulating my intention. Let's start with a quote from the Forum Rules, because rules give a feeling of known ground, of security:
Now, I can only repeat myself with my limited vocabulary: my intention for this thread was a discussion about whether or not there is an interest in the tool I described (therefore determining "the original subject matter at hand"), and I explicitely stated that I did NOT want a discussion about that tool's legality (therefore establishing what I would feel would "steer this web forum discussion thread off topic"). Your sole contributions so far were ones about the tool's legality, which "provoked a feeling of resentment" from my humble self, "the original author of the thread". Where exactly did my admittedly limited skills at the English language fail to convey my intention? |
Darkhorse
It would be quite handy actually, especially for some of the classes the AI doesn't handle so well.
I didn't know you still played this game, Roland.
I didn't know you still played this game, Roland.
Selket
lets make hero battles easier? o ok.
byteme!
HFFF made easier???
FeroxC
Roland the problem with keyboard hooks is they arn't that easy to write.
They come in two types:Local and global, the local one will trap only keyboard input in your own program. The global one will trap all keyboard input but it involves writing a .dll file which is a pain.
The system call i linked you to should be able to emulate a mouse click without actually moving the mouse. But if your more comfortable with Java use that obviously.
Will be interesting to see what you use to hook the keyboard input, because in c++ its going to be a real pain.
They come in two types:Local and global, the local one will trap only keyboard input in your own program. The global one will trap all keyboard input but it involves writing a .dll file which is a pain.
The system call i linked you to should be able to emulate a mouse click without actually moving the mouse. But if your more comfortable with Java use that obviously.
Will be interesting to see what you use to hook the keyboard input, because in c++ its going to be a real pain.
Roland of Gilead
Well FeroxC, thanks for the warning, but rest assured that I have solved the technical side of the problem already. A proof-of-concept program exists and works fine, just waiting for approval or disapproval from ANet so that it either gets fully developed or be dedicated to the Recycle Bin.
FeroxC
Actually,your right i can't think of any other way to trap the keyboard input other than a global hook :P. Good luck with the approval.
Isileth
Would deffinately be interested in something like this.
Hero control is fairly limited and clumsy at the moment so would be nice to have it improved in some way.
Hero control is fairly limited and clumsy at the moment so would be nice to have it improved in some way.
MagmaRed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead
I'm not a native English speaker, so forgive me if I'm not exactly sure where I made a mistake in formulating my intention. Let's start with a quote from the Forum Rules, because rules give a feeling of known ground, of security:
Now, I can only repeat myself with my limited vocabulary: my intention for this thread was a discussion about whether or not there is an interest in the tool I described (therefore determining "the original subject matter at hand"), and I explicitely stated that I did NOT want a discussion about that tool's legality (therefore establishing what I would feel would "steer this web forum discussion thread off topic"). Your sole contributions so far were ones about the tool's legality, which "provoked a feeling of resentment" from my humble self, "the original author of the thread". Where exactly did my admittedly limited skills at the English language fail to convey my intention? |
Your program sounds like it would violate the EULA, and be worthy of a ban to anyone who uses it. Because of this, I am not interested.
Does that help any?
Biostem
I just wanted to add that, at least in many cases, the tools to make things "easier" are not implemented on purpose. While heroes are a great improvement over regular henchmen, they are, for the most part, supposed to be AI controlled. yes, we have the ability to issue them specific commands, but the game is supposed to be you focusing on 1 character and the others there to simply support you, but in an automated manner.
While I can appreciate the OP's programming skills, it doesn't seem like a far cry to make automating the activation of skills, character movement, and other actions so the program plays the game for you. Again, it is fully w/in ANet's capability to offer such functions in their game, but they haven't for a reason...
While I can appreciate the OP's programming skills, it doesn't seem like a far cry to make automating the activation of skills, character movement, and other actions so the program plays the game for you. Again, it is fully w/in ANet's capability to offer such functions in their game, but they haven't for a reason...
Rhedd
I have some actual, non-opinion-based, information on the subject of whether or not this is allowed.
Do not- repeat, DO NOT- take me what I say as official, but I've discussed this issue with Anet before, and here's what I found out.
I have an Ergodex pad, which is essentially an extremely customizable keyboard with macro capabilities (look it up, they're great!!). When I purchased it, I wrote to Anet about using macros, etc. with GW, and here's their Golden Rule:
If the third-party program you're using does NOTHING but change the way you input commands, and DOES NOT in any way allow the game to be played without you present, or without your input, or in a way that wasn't possible before, then it's fine.
In other words, the one key macro that I use all the time to select the nearest enemy and then attack it is fine, but an extensive macro that would do a dungeon run for me while I watched TV would be a big no-no.
Does that mean that Roland's program would be allowed? I'm not the one to say, but it does seem to fall within those boundaries.
It changes what button you press to have a hero use a skill (keyboard vs HUD), but in no way allows you to do something you otherwise wouldn't be able to, or presses the buttons for you while you're off eating cake, so it SHOULD be fine.
Still, talk to Anet. They're quite willing to respond to such inquiries.
Good luck with the program. It sounds quite useful.
Do not- repeat, DO NOT- take me what I say as official, but I've discussed this issue with Anet before, and here's what I found out.
I have an Ergodex pad, which is essentially an extremely customizable keyboard with macro capabilities (look it up, they're great!!). When I purchased it, I wrote to Anet about using macros, etc. with GW, and here's their Golden Rule:
If the third-party program you're using does NOTHING but change the way you input commands, and DOES NOT in any way allow the game to be played without you present, or without your input, or in a way that wasn't possible before, then it's fine.
In other words, the one key macro that I use all the time to select the nearest enemy and then attack it is fine, but an extensive macro that would do a dungeon run for me while I watched TV would be a big no-no.
Does that mean that Roland's program would be allowed? I'm not the one to say, but it does seem to fall within those boundaries.
It changes what button you press to have a hero use a skill (keyboard vs HUD), but in no way allows you to do something you otherwise wouldn't be able to, or presses the buttons for you while you're off eating cake, so it SHOULD be fine.
Still, talk to Anet. They're quite willing to respond to such inquiries.
Good luck with the program. It sounds quite useful.
Isileth
Yeah I see it in the same light Rhedd, its not something that plays the game for you, it simply allows you to setup macros for often used command.
You still need to be there to press it and you still need to be there to make the choice on when to use it.
Unlike something that automatically refreshed enchantments or anything like that it requires your input at every step of the way.
You still need to be there to press it and you still need to be there to make the choice on when to use it.
Unlike something that automatically refreshed enchantments or anything like that it requires your input at every step of the way.
deya
No offence lads but I smell a keylogger here.
Uber Mass
only feature i would like to see is "the not dance around in the AOE button" for the heroes.. the rest is fine as it is... dont make it a more single player mmo
Isileth
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Originally Posted by deya
No offence lads but I smell a keylogger here.
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He also hasnt linked to anything to download at all, so hardly a keylogger
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Uber Mass
only feature i would like to see is "the not dance around in the AOE button" for the heroes.. the rest is fine as it is... dont make it a more single player mmo
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2. GW is advertised as a game you can play on your own with AI.
So saying improvements shouldnt be made because it shouldnt be a single player game isnt really valid, because it is a single player game as well as a multiplayer game.
Roland of Gilead
Fresh and hot out of my inbox, the quasi-reply from European GW customer service. German members, feel free to confirm my translation or point out significant (!), statement-changing (!) errors.
Translation:
I have posed a follow-up question and asked if they would check out the final program and decide for that particular case if it's legal or not, to nail this thing down and remove all speculative bits.
Generally, however, the reply confirms what Rhedd and Isilieth already said, making my tool legal as far as I can tell because I will design it so. I will continue developing it and it should be complete within the week. Watch this space for more announcements.
Quote:
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Hallo Matthias, vielen Dank, dass Sie Sich an die europäische Guild Wars Kundenbetreuung gewandt haben. Sie fragten uns, ob Ihre programmierbare Tastatur zum Spielen von Guild Wars für uns akzeptabel wäre. "Was wäre, wenn..."-Fragen wie diese, sind stets schwer zu beantworten, wenn wir bislang keine Entscheidungen über solche Vorkommnisse zu fällen hatten. Wie dem auch sei, werden wir versuchen Ihnen zu verdeutlichen, was wir als "richtig" oder "falsch" erachten, wenn Sie Ihre programmierbare Tastatur in Verbindung mit Guild Wars verwenden. Das Nutzen Ihrer programmierbaren Tastatur als normale Tastatur ist mit Sicherheit problemlos. Eine Tastatur ist ein Standard-Eingabegerät, welches unabdingbar zum Nutzen eines Computers und auch des Spieles Guild Wars ist. Jedes Mal, wenn Sie eine Taste drücken, wird ein Zeichen auf dem Bildschirm abgebildet oder eine andere Aktion ausgeführt und im Allgemeinen ist dies akzeptabel. Wären Sie irgendwie in der Lage, Ihre programmierbare Tastatur so zu nutzen, dass Spielabläufe vollständig automatisiert werden, speziell bis zu einem Punkt, an dem Sie sich nicht einmal mehr selbst am Rechner aufhalten müssen, während Ihre Tastatur-Software das Spiel "spielt", dann wäre dieses ein Verstoß gegen unsere Lizenzvereinbarung und somit Anlass für Sanktionen ( "Sie erklären sich damit einverstanden, keine Hardware oder Software zu benutzen, einschließlich, aber nicht darauf beschränkt, Hilfsprogramme von Drittanbietern, oder irgendeine andere Supportmethode, die nicht von NCsoft autorisiert ist, einschließlich, aber nicht beschränkt auf die Benutzung von "Bots" und/oder anderen Methoden, durch die der Dienst automatisch und ohne die Einwirkung von Personen genutzt werden kann." ). Irgendwo zwischen diesen beiden Szenarien befindet sich eine Grauzone. Wir können keine "endgültigen Entscheidungen" über Fälle inmitten dieser Grauzone treffen, wenn es bislang über keine solcher Fälle zu entscheiden galt und wir werden nicht rein spekulativ über sämtliche denkbaren Fälle innerhalb dieser Grauzone entscheiden. Stellen Sie bitte generell sicher, dass Sie sich während des Spielens an Ihrem Computer aufhalten und Ihr Spiel selbst spielen. Letztendlich bleibt noch zu betonen, wie wichtig und unbedingt notwendig es ist, dass jeder in Guild Wars gespielte Charakter durch eine Person am Computer gesteuert wird. Wir wissen, dass wir Ihnen keine eindeutige und alles beantwortende Antwort liefern konnten, hoffen jedoch Ihnen veranschaulicht haben zu können, was einerseits "jemandem beim Spiel behilflich sein" und andererseits "für jemanden spielen" bedeutet und was wir dabei als akzeptabel empfinden. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, GM Alissa Guild Wars Europe Kundenbetreuung NCsoft Europe http://de.guildwars.com |
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Hello Matthias, Thank you for having turned to the European GW customer support. You asked us whether your programmable keyboard would be acceptable to us for playing GW. "What if..." questions like this one are always difficult to answer, because so far we did not have to make an actual decision about such events. Be as it might, we will try to make clear what we believe is "right" or "wrong" when you use your programmable keyboard with GW. Using you programmable keyboard as a regular keyboard is certainly not problematic. A keyboard is a default input device, which is essential for using a computer and also for playing GW. Each time you press a key, a character will be displayed on the screen or another action is performed and in general, that's acceptable. Were you somehow able to use your keyboard in such a way as to completely automate gameplay, specifically to the point that you wouldn't even have to be near the computer while the keyboard software "plays" the game for you, then that would be a breach of our license agreement and therefore reason for sanctions ("You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input." {quote from the UA, RoG}). There is a grey area somewhee between these two scenarios. We cannot make "final decisions" about cases within this grey area if so far there haven't been such cases to decide upon and we will not decide upon any and all cases within this grey area based on nothing but pure speculation. In general, please make sure that while playing you are at your computer and you play the game yourself. Ultimately we want to emphasize how important and unconditionally necessary it is that every character played in GW is being controlled by a person at the computer. We know that we could not provide you with an unambiguous answer that covers all questions, but we hope that we were able to illustrate the difference between "helping someone at the game" and "playing for someone" and what we consider acceptable with regard to that. kind regards, GM Alissa GW Europe customer support NCsoft Europe |
Generally, however, the reply confirms what Rhedd and Isilieth already said, making my tool legal as far as I can tell because I will design it so. I will continue developing it and it should be complete within the week. Watch this space for more announcements.
scrinner
I would be Very interested in this program as long as there is no interference with actual mouse work (fixing that button repeatedly pressed thing would really be nice). However i just have one question.
For example if i press SHIFT + 1 Which hero would it command?
For example if i press SHIFT + 1 Which hero would it command?
Roland of Gilead
Scrinner, you would freely define via an graphical interface which key combination would cause which action. You would have your complete keyboard (0-9, a-z, F-keys, Space, Return, all numpad keys, special keys like Del/Home, etc.) available plus any combination of the Shift, Alt, and Control key, making for hundreds of possible hotkeys. As for gaming interference, there are constellations where you cannot use the tool because of an action you take in GW (while you hold a mouse button, you cannot simulate a mouse click with the tool), but GW's original functionality would in no case be negatively affected unless you overwrite any original hotkeys.
Uber Mass
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Originally Posted by Isileth
1. GW isnt an mmo. Its a CORPG. 2. GW is advertised as a game you can play on your own with AI. So saying improvements shouldnt be made because it shouldnt be a single player game isnt really valid, because it is a single player game as well as a multiplayer game. |
Draikin
I wouldn't mind a program like this if it only helped in PvE but in Hero Battles it's going to give players an advantage if they use it. Instead of allowing the use of programs like this, Anet should simply implement this functionality themselves so that everyone can use it.
Roland of Gilead
Draikin, Heroes have been in the game for well over a year. They're not going to implement that all of a sudden, even less now because they're focused on GW2. That's the perfect place for the modding community to step in.
Draikin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead
That's the perfect place for the modding community to step in.
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Rhedd
I'm glad it sounds like your program will probably be allowable, Roland.
I'd give a lot to be able to bind a key to Vekk's Meteor Storm. ^_^
I'd give a lot to be able to bind a key to Vekk's Meteor Storm. ^_^
MagmaRed
Ok, you got a response about a programmable keyboard. That is nothing new, as those have been around for years. What about your program, which is separate from the keyboard? Will it run ONLY with a programmable keyboard, will it run something ANET won't allow, and will it be commented on by Anet?
As I stated earlier, I am not interested in this program if it will be something Anet will ban for. If you can supply Anet's official 'allowance', then I may be interested.
As I stated earlier, I am not interested in this program if it will be something Anet will ban for. If you can supply Anet's official 'allowance', then I may be interested.
Isileth
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MagmaRed
Ok, you got a response about a programmable keyboard. That is nothing new, as those have been around for years. What about your program, which is separate from the keyboard? Will it run ONLY with a programmable keyboard, will it run something ANET won't allow, and will it be commented on by Anet?
As I stated earlier, I am not interested in this program if it will be something Anet will ban for. If you can supply Anet's official 'allowance', then I may be interested. |
Really I think while they wont say for deffinate they would allow it.
For example they say
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Anet
There is a grey area somewhee between these two scenarios. We cannot make "final decisions" about cases within this grey area if so far there haven't been such cases to decide upon and we will not decide upon any and all cases within this grey area based on nothing but pure speculation. In general, please make sure that while playing you are at your computer and you play the game yourself. Ultimately we want to emphasize how important and unconditionally necessary it is that every character played in GW is being controlled by a person at the computer.
We know that we could not provide you with an unambiguous answer that covers all questions, but we hope that we were able to illustrate the difference between "helping someone at the game" and "playing for someone" and what we consider acceptable with regard to that. |
At all times its the player controlling it.
MagmaRed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Isileth
Really I think while they wont say for deffinate they would allow it.
For example they say This would at no point play the game for you. It requires player interaction at all times. It cant make any commands without the player and it doesnt choose commands for the player. At all times its the player controlling it. |
Isileth
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MagmaRed
I don't want to get into an arguement about botting, but you can design a bot to behave in the same fashion. I can sit at my computer, and press buttons, and still have the computer be playing for me. This is why it is a 'grey' area. Anet knows that some things can be used 'legally', and some can be adapted for 'illegal' use.
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Press A, char goes off and completes mission X.
It would be press A, hero uses skill X.
Or press B, hero uses skill Y and skill Z.
All of that can already be achieved by clicking 1 or 2 buttons. This would simply make it more effecient. No advantage would be gained because everything it would do is already completely possible.
This would just make it more effecient and user friendly.
Rather than having to target something and click a heroes skill every single time it recharges, you can just press a single button each time.
No advantage, just a quicker and more effecient way of achieving the same goal.
Draikin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Isileth
Or press B, hero uses skill Y and skill Z.
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Roland of Gilead
MagmaRed, my program should work with any input device that generates the same Windows key events as a regular keyboard. For one, I know it works with any plain 5$ keyboard without special keys or software, because that's the type of keyboard I'm using. Besides, writing a program to control a keyboard usually makes that a programmable keyboard, pretty much by definition; after all, if you buy a programmable keyboard in the computer hardware store of your choice, do you think it works in a fundamentally different way than I try to do? You would install software, and that software would present you options to, generally speaking, assign a certain chain of actions to pressing a certain combination of keys.
As for ANet's permission, did you read the answer from support I translated? You won't hear anything more definite from them, but you are, needless to say, free to ignore my program as you see fit, everybody must make up his own mind. As for a program that is botting with the player sitting in front of the computer, now that would be a pretty dumb thing to do, wouldn't it? And you should not assume that the folks who are responsible for banning GW botters are too stupid to discern a legitimate macro user from a macro chaining user from a bot. Bots have totally different behaviour patterns compared to any human player, even any human player using a macro tool. A macro chaining player would be harder to discover, but I for one would be highly suspicious if a player repeatedly activated the same 4 skills within a 10 millisecond time frame. No human without a bot or macro chain tool can ever play that mechanical and fast for any significant length of time, not to mention that this is not the only way ANet looks for botters, which they have repeatedly stated in interviews and through Gaile.
Actually, Isileth and Draikin, binding 2 or more significant actions (e.g. skill activations) to a single key press would already count as botting from ANet's side, so I'm not going to implement that. As long as each action requires at least one click or key press, and as long as one key combination results in no more than one action, the tool is probably ok, otherwise not.
As for ANet's permission, did you read the answer from support I translated? You won't hear anything more definite from them, but you are, needless to say, free to ignore my program as you see fit, everybody must make up his own mind. As for a program that is botting with the player sitting in front of the computer, now that would be a pretty dumb thing to do, wouldn't it? And you should not assume that the folks who are responsible for banning GW botters are too stupid to discern a legitimate macro user from a macro chaining user from a bot. Bots have totally different behaviour patterns compared to any human player, even any human player using a macro tool. A macro chaining player would be harder to discover, but I for one would be highly suspicious if a player repeatedly activated the same 4 skills within a 10 millisecond time frame. No human without a bot or macro chain tool can ever play that mechanical and fast for any significant length of time, not to mention that this is not the only way ANet looks for botters, which they have repeatedly stated in interviews and through Gaile.
Actually, Isileth and Draikin, binding 2 or more significant actions (e.g. skill activations) to a single key press would already count as botting from ANet's side, so I'm not going to implement that. As long as each action requires at least one click or key press, and as long as one key combination results in no more than one action, the tool is probably ok, otherwise not.
Roland of Gilead
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rhedd
I'd give a lot to be able to bind a key to Vekk's Meteor Storm. ^_^
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FeroxC
Congrats, i will be looking forward to using this and reading the source.
Rhedd
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead
How much, would you say, is "a lot"? A PayPal account is set up quickly
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(See, I knew you were joking, because what WOULD be super-not-good and totally against the EULA is you making any money off of your efforts.)
Yichi
Jesus, how much easier do people want this game to be...
Puritans Aid
I dont see how this could be allowed, if its a "program" that makes it 3rd party, and illegal..
However,.. I know several people who have macros build into their keyboards, and use them exactly how your talking about.. and its not a "program" on the pc, tho technically still probably not allowed.
However,.. I know several people who have macros build into their keyboards, and use them exactly how your talking about.. and its not a "program" on the pc, tho technically still probably not allowed.