Straying off the beaten path...

DRGN

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

In Memorium [iBot]

Mo/A

21 Jan 2008 at 16:36 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Well, if you really want to run a blood bar in PvE, it's probably a mistake to skip past [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] and [skill]oppressive gaze[/skill] Is that even worthwhile anymore after they killed Oppressive Gaze with the 50%> clause?

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

21 Jan 2008 at 16:50 - 42

Oppressive Gaze is kinda an afterthought nowadays, and was never much strong in PvE, but dual-speccing into Curses for Enfeebling Blood and some other utility is pretty mandatory unless you run with a second N doing Curses. Of course, I don't know why you would be running Blood in PvE without said Curses guy at your side, but that's a different story...

Xylia

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

The Pond [pond]

N/Me

21 Jan 2008 at 17:20 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Well, if you really want to run a blood bar in PvE, it's probably a mistake to skip past [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] and [skill]oppressive gaze[/skill] Enfeebling blood is curses, despite the name of the skill.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Jan 2008 at 17:22 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylia

Enfeebling blood is curses, despite the name of the skill. I think he knows that, but read the description of oppressive gaze. Extra damage against foes with weakness. Enfeebling blood is AoE weakness, which doesn't really need a high spec into curses to be useful.

Xylia

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

The Pond [pond]

N/Me

21 Jan 2008 at 19:51 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I think he knows that, but read the description of oppressive gaze. Extra damage against foes with weakness. Enfeebling blood is AoE weakness, which doesn't really need a high spec into curses to be useful.
Huh. Guess I never really noticed that before. Also, as is alluded to above, the skill description has been changed from what appears in the pop up, and now only steals from foes with less than 50% health. It's sort of an inverse shadow strike, with AoE capability, less damage, higher casting cost, and a conditional requirement.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

21 Jan 2008 at 20:05 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Also considering you spec into both Blood and Channeling your Soul Reaping can't be that high.

Blood Magic: 10 + 1
Channeling: 10
Soul Reaping: 11 + 2

Meets all the necessary breakpoints; +5 on Blood Renewal, next 4 attacks on Splinter Weapon, 4 energy return on Masochism, 9 energy on Signet of Lost Souls.

Quote: Grasping was Kuurong That's probably one of the worst elites in the entire game. Low lightning damage and a KD every 20 seconds for 15 energy?

Quote: Weapon of Fury You already have Dark Fury.

Quote:

Soul Leech Could be useful to make up for the health sac. But as Ensign mention it's just like Spoil Victor and will just be dealing incidental damage on a target if you want to get any use out of it.

Quote:

Wail of Doom If I want to shutdown physicals I'd spec into curses for Enfeebling Blood.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

21 Jan 2008 at 21:53 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

That's probably one of the worst elites in the entire game. Low lightning damage and a KD every 20 seconds for 15 energy?

An AoE KD every 20 seconds is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.
Quote:

You already have Dark Fury.

An energy-management utility with added energy gain and weapon trigger is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

Quote:

Could be useful to make up for the health sac. But as Ensign mention it's just like Spoil Victor and will just be dealing incidental damage on a target if you want to get any use out of it. An armor-ignoring 66%-of-the-time caster counter with a self-heal is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

Quote:

If I want to shutdown physicals I'd spec into curses for Enfeebling Blood. An every-15-seconds unconditional interrupt spell with near complete single-target physical shutdown if necessary is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

Oh, and incidentally, you really do not need to spec 13 in Soul Reaping for that support function. You can get away with 10, especially running Masochism, and still have stuff to spare to boost Channeling and Blood Magic, which would be the better play. Of course, that would mean getting rid of the low unfocused AoE damage when things die

Note, I do not claim that all the elites I listed above are wtfpwn choices, or even good choices. I just claimed they were stronger than Icy Veins in any serious PvE setting.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Jan 2008 at 22:30 - 48

The problem is those elites aren't better in a serious PvE setting. In a serious PvE setting, you'll be fighting mobs of 10+ enemies. As long as you spam Icy Veins on enemies that are going to die, the damage is going to add up. If your party doesn't suck, enemies will die rather quickly. Once enemies start dying, the entire mob is going to start taking AoE damage from Icy Veins. I find it quite funny that you think Grasping was Kuurong is better then Icy Veins. It just proves that you've clearly never ran Icy Veins, and I highly doubt you've run Grasping was Kuurong unless you like using horrible elites.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

21 Jan 2008 at 22:44 - 49

Jagged

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2008

SoFla

Dangerously Incompetent (DUI)

21 Jan 2008 at 23:01 - 50

This is very depressing. While i've only been playing about 3 months, i'm finishing the 4th campaign, solely as a Blood Necro. I'm using SAB's builds for my heroes and don't think I could do better at Curse or MM then they do.

My bar is essentially:
Angorodon's Gaze
Vampiric Gaze
Signet of Lost Souls
Life Siphon
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
"Finish Him!"
"You Move Like a Dwarf!"
Echo (E) (Mesmer)

I usually open with Echoed Assassins which stun a mob and use Finish Him on them. They die in seconds. Then I just spam the Blood skills. Energy is usually not an issue. Is this horrible?

Bowstring Badass

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Character selection screen figuring what I want to play...

Purple Lingerie - :D

21 Jan 2008 at 23:07 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Spamming a 10e hex, Despite getting getting your energy back in the middle of it.. Necro's still have no problem with spamming 10 energy hexes imo... Icy veins is a good skill if you use it on 50% or lower targets (takes 2 seconds) the damage will add up pretty damn quick.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

21 Jan 2008 at 23:17 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

An AoE KD every 20 seconds is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

You'd have to run up to the ball of enemies and drop it for that KD. I could put three Icy Veins on a target in the time it takes for Grasping to recharge, and with Splinter Weapon, guarentee those targets are dying soon after the application.

Quote:

An energy-management utility with added energy gain and weapon trigger is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

Energy management? For who? The only ones who can take advantage of the energy return aspect of Weapon of Fury are physicals who are attacking normally. But given the duration of it, you'd be better off running Blood Ritual; but when was the last time a warrior, ranger, dervish, assassin, or paragon called for a Blood Ritual? And taking up that weapon slot means you can't splinter and blow stuff up.

Quote:

An armor-ignoring 66%-of-the-time caster counter with a self-heal is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die. If I want something to die I'm putting my physicals on that target. Spoil Victor is useful against groups with multiple healers; stick it on one while your physicals kill the other.

Quote:

An every-15-seconds unconditional interrupt spell with near complete single-target physical shutdown if necessary is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die. If I want interrupts, I'll bring BHA. If I want to shutdown one physical... well, I don't. I'll bring Enfeebling Blood, Defensive Anthem, Aegis, Ward Melee, etc... because any encounter with a physical is going to have multiple physicals and shutting down just one is nothing special.

Quote:

Oh, and incidentally, you really do not need to spec 13 in Soul Reaping for that support function. You can get away with 10, especially running Masochism, and still have stuff to spare to boost Channeling and Blood Magic, which would be the better play. Of course, that would mean getting rid of the low unfocused AoE damage when things die

You can probably move around the attributes for sure. That build is something I run on my heroes personally, with the main idea being to power out Dark Fury, Order of Pain, and Splinter Weapon. The bar is tooled to that design, with Blood Renewal just to help the hero heal itself a little.

Quote:

Note, I do not claim that all the elites I listed above are wtfpwn choices, or even good choices. I just claimed they were stronger than Icy Veins in any serious PvE setting. I know Icy Veins isn't all that good. The only other options I would consider would be Offering of Blood/Spirit, or Reaper's Mark to power out more of the three spells I listed. But since the hero manages the energy well enough there is no reason to make any change.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

21 Jan 2008 at 23:22 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

^ I think you have probably never run Icy Veins on your own character. If you had actually run Icy Veins on your own character you would've seen for yourself how bad its damage output is versus a high-level PvE mob.

No, I think what you've done is put the elite on a hero. And, what do you know, the hero works. Of course it works. All you're liable to see from him is the numbers from OoP, the Dark Fury bliss, the Splinter Weapon. And hey, Icy Veins has this cool little animation when things die. Surely that can't be bad?!

You claim the damage "stacks up". Sure, it stacks up. A lot of things stack up. That doesn't make them good skills.

Spamming a 10e hex, to bank on an abysmal damage return if and when the target dies, is neither economical nor sound. And claiming I don't know anything about a certain N elite for lack of experience with it is... well, kinda funny As a matter of fact I do run it on my necro. When you have a SS and MM necro hero, there's really not a whole lot to do. SS necro deals AoE damage, MM necro deals AoE damage, so I decided I might as well try to fit an AoE damage skill on my bar. I chose Icy Veins, to see how it works. Sure, the damage isn't as much as SS, but it's not bad damage.

My point is, on a support bar like an order necro, where by the time you're done using your support skills, this skill isn't bad. Sure it's not uber great, but it's better then the skills you suggested, and it's better then the other elite options you have in blood/channeling/soul reaping when your party is mainly AoE.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

22 Jan 2008 at 00:00 - 54

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
As a matter of fact I do run it on my necro. When you have a SS and MM necro hero, there's really not a whole lot to do. SS necro deals AoE damage, MM necro deals AoE damage, so I decided I might as well try to fit an AoE damage skill on my bar. I chose Icy Veins, to see how it works. Sure, the damage isn't as much as SS, but it's not bad damage. If you're running the IV on yourself as a necromancer, and the SS and MM on heroes, I think you're making a major mistake. Heroes don't at all use a spell like SS, Enfeebling, or whatever particularly good. They don't place their hexes properly, they don't prioritize their hexes properly, and they don't cover their hexes properly. IV is a real dumb spell that you can put on anyone, anytime. That, however, doesn't mean it's much good.

The point of "I kill stuff with physicals", as Racthoh put it, isn't a valid one. I respect Racthoh, and I know he's a good PvE player. That said he does concentrate on physicals and if he was truly interested in optimizing his casters, he wouldn't run IV. No matter what your physical damage output is, you can't go _wrong_ with more damage or more utility. IV doesn't provide that utility. If Racthoh "kills stuff with physicals", as he says, then why would he run IV? IV is a damage spell, albeit a terrible one. The same thing holds for interrupts, knockdowns or whatever. You judge effect versus effect. Is GwK bad? YES, it's bad. That said I'd rather have a hero run GwK and manage maybe a KD or two every 20 seconds than waste time and energy spamming IV.

Regarding Weapon Of Fury: Yes, it's overkill. Still, Splinter Weapon recharges in 5 and the hero isn't going to be able to spam it over the entire party. WoF will also give "weapon" which makes for some trigger-spells being more effective. Incidentally, I'd rather run Warmonger's on a non-Elite bar than run IV as the elite. And it might be better to replace WoF with Warmonger's, or another Weapon spell.

Soul Leech will do better, focused damage than IV. It will also support the caster. SV will definitely do better, focused damage than IV. If you don't need chock amounts of adrenaline for whatever reason, OoV is a better spell as an elite than IV. IV often outputs damage when it is the least needed. All of these spells are far more economical than IV.

I have tried using IV for various things in PvE, and the only real use I've found for it has been farming Ornate Grawl Necklaces. There is almost no PvE build I can think of where I can't think of a superior replacement.

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

22 Jan 2008 at 02:39 - 55

I tried IV when I was farming Destroyers. Granted it was a wonky build, I was the MM (with IV) and I had two specialized SS necros with me. I wasn't overly impressed with the damage and it didn't provide me with the "mob killer" I was looking for. I didn't however have a build setup specifically around spamming IV.

Tainted worked better there IMHO.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

22 Jan 2008 at 06:46 - 56

Oops, completely forgot about the nerf to oppressive gaze. However, it does drive home the point the the only way to give blood useful utility is to grab toys from other attributes.

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

22 Jan 2008 at 07:39 - 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Energy management? For who? The only ones who can take advantage of the energy return aspect of Weapon of Fury are physicals who are attacking normally. But given the duration of it, you'd be better off running Blood Ritual; but when was the last time a warrior, ranger, dervish, assassin, or paragon called for a Blood Ritual? And taking up that weapon slot means you can't splinter and blow stuff up.

Just a small tidbit but I find Weapon of Fury to be a nice skill on a ranger who is Rampaging as One. With a zealous weapon and WoF, I was able to maintain RaO easily while still pumping out attack skills

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I tried IV when I was farming Destroyers. Granted it was a wonky build, I was the MM (with IV) and I had two specialized SS necros with me. I wasn't overly impressed with the damage and it didn't provide me with the "mob killer" I was looking for. I didn't however have a build setup specifically around spamming IV.

Tainted worked better there IMHO. Well Destroyers are pretty durable

AshenX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

Orange County, CA.

Black Flag

22 Jan 2008 at 07:44 - 58

Bloodspike FTW Dr Stragelove. I have always loved those two together.

zling

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

22 Jan 2008 at 17:08 - 59

SV isnt all that bad in PvE.
Soul Leech isnt all that bad in PvE.
Blood Magic in general isnt all that bad in PvE.
the problem is that you're not looking for "not that bad in PvE" you're looking for "Good in PvE" or even "Great in PvE"

with that in mind, if you're sick and tired of Curses and MMs or just really love Blood Magic than go ahead and play it...

Draginvry

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

The Underground PvP Society (PVPS)

N/Mo

22 Jan 2008 at 23:27 - 60

I love blood builds. The only problem is that they are kind of useless without some kind of gimmick. The gimmick usually being WoP or OoP.

I normally run a blood Necrosis necro carrying either Well of Blood or Order of Pain. It's not nearly as powerful as MM, but it's still usefull.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

23 Jan 2008 at 00:07 - 61

I wouldn't call an Orders necro very "gimmicky" to be honest... no more than a Taint-bot.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

23 Jan 2008 at 01:13 - 62

Icy Veins is not the best skill on your bar, ever. If you're using PvE skills it's probably not even in the top half. However there is no Necromancer elite that you can take that would be in the top half. I'd never say that Icy Veins is an awesome elite, but if you aren't specced for / don't want Spiteful Spirit or Spoil Victor for some big damage on off targets, Icy Veins is the next best Necromancer elite.

The only other elite I'd seriously consider for PvE is Offering of Blood, barring Minion Master elites.

Draginvry

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

The Underground PvP Society (PVPS)

N/Mo

23 Jan 2008 at 01:43 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I wouldn't call an Orders necro very "gimmicky" to be honest Gimmicky in the sense that it is the only thing on my bar other than Necrosis that is actually doing any real damage. Everything else is just utility or life steal (in case I start taking hits).

I do really like Well of Blood and Blood Bond. They are good for extending the life of heros, who aren't very good at retreating when they are under too much pressure.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

23 Jan 2008 at 01:50 - 64

The main question isn't whether N elites are weak or strong, the main question is if Icy Veins is ever valid (or perhaps I should rather say: "optimal") to pack in any serious PvE setting, for any build. I would probably run a build with no elite before I used it, and that goes for my heroes too.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

23 Jan 2008 at 01:51 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

Gimmicky in the sense that it is the only thing on my bar other than Necrosis that is actually doing any real damage. Everything else is just utility or life steal (in case I start taking hits).

I do really like Well of Blood and Blood Bond. They are good for extending the life of heros, who aren't very good at retreating when they are under too much pressure. Eh, SV+OoP gives you two "real damage" spells.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

23 Jan 2008 at 06:03 - 66

I don't think Necro non-elites are so deep that Icy Veins would be pushed off of your bar, provided that you're already specced for the high Soul Reaping. But you're talking about some odd character anyway that isn't specced heavily enough into Curses or Blood for Spiteful/Spoil Victor, and isn't a MM, so it isn't like we're talking about a lot of characters here. We're looking at guys like N/Rt healers or the like, where the elite choices are similarly uninspired and I think there's a good case for Icy Veins.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

23 Jan 2008 at 06:33 - 67

Weapon of Remedy is a decent Restoration Magic elite. It certainly beats IV with a "N/Rt Healer" spec.

Seriously, though, I'm interested. Name a specific build for PvE where you feel IV is called for.

Bargamer

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Rt/N

23 Jan 2008 at 06:49 - 68

Moloch: I gave my Necro Hero IV, Putrid Bile, Death Nova, Fiends, Signet of Sorrow, Signet of Lost Souls, Mantra of Inscriptions, and Leech Signet to complement my Rit/N Minion Bomber and we pretty much H/H through all of Nightfall and GW:EN. But eh, it's PVE. You can pretty much get away with anything, right?

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

23 Jan 2008 at 07:08 - 69

^ I assume that the hero is specced with 12+1+x Death Magic.

You'd be better off running Jagged Bones, Discord, Virulence, Tainted Flesh or Wail of Doom than IV on it.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

23 Jan 2008 at 07:34 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Weapon of Remedy is a decent Restoration Magic elite. It certainly beats IV with a "N/Rt Healer" spec. I'd run Icy Veins over Weapon of Remedy on a PvE Necro/Rit; I don't feel like that's even a close call TBH. If you really want a Restoration elite you run Spirit Light Weapon. But I'd take Icy Veins over either, especially on a hero where micromanaging the skill isn't a problem. As a player I might go for Spirit Light weapon just to avoid micromanagement headaches.

I feel the need to point out that it's weak *focused* damage when cast. It's really the only Necro elite I'd consider that's put on a focused target; Spiteful and Spoil Victor, while unquestionably stronger, very rarely go onto focused targets. The bulk of the damage dealt by all 3 elites is incidental, which keeps any of them from being the best skill on a Necro bar.

Bargamer

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Rt/N

23 Jan 2008 at 07:46 - 71

Hrm... Discord... *Experiments with THIRD Necro.*

I might do a FOURTH Necro, for /Rit, see if the healings are worth it.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

23 Jan 2008 at 08:07 - 72

Unfortunately, spirit light weapon is pretty terrible. If someone is taking a pile of damage over 10 seconds, you want weapon of warding/shadow on them, not a second-rate healing over time spell. In practice, it really doesn't perform any better than the non-elite spirit light.

Pretty much all the elites you could stick on there are going to suck, so you may as well grab something like icy veins or weapon of remedy that adds incidental damage.

arsie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2007

23 Jan 2008 at 08:32 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagged

...I'm using SAB's builds for my heroes and don't think I could do better at Curse...then they do... Pay attention to your heroes when they run a Curse build. They almost always spend Mark of Pain upon contact on single targets.

While I am not really good at casting the right hexes on the best targets, I usually can manage much better than the heroes. Especially if you ping Barbs and Mark of Pain, the yellow numbers will start to fly.

I feel kinda sad that the Blood line is sub-par to the other lines in PvE. I do not see much that can be done for it. Perhaps the line should have been a support line all along. The only thing you cannot do with sacrificing blood is to heal and prot others.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

23 Jan 2008 at 09:48 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'd run Icy Veins over Weapon of Remedy on a PvE Necro/Rit; I don't feel like that's even a close call TBH. If you really want a Restoration elite you run Spirit Light Weapon. But I'd take Icy Veins over either, especially on a hero where micromanaging the skill isn't a problem. As a player I might go for Spirit Light weapon just to avoid micromanagement headaches. Disagree strongly. Weapon of Remedy is a far better heal. It fits with the mode of operation of the N/Rt which is spam healing. It removes a condition, and it delivers incidental pressure by life stealing. It has a very fast cast and a fast recharge. In fact, the casting time is so short that you can often remove Dazed from yourself with it. By comparison Spirit Light Weapon is utterly impotent, for reasons already mentioned above by Strangelove. Weapon of Warding is stronger if you want a protection over time for a character, Resilient Weapon is also stronger. I have saved many people with Weapon of Remedy and Weapon of Warding. Spirit Light Weapon has left me feeling helpless.

A human player will also have a marginally easier time with WoR than running Icy Veins, because he won't have to switch Friend <-> Foe for anything. This consideration is only added as an afterthought.

Regarding the "focused" damage of Icy Veins, the initial damage is so weak as to be nearly non-existent. What the "big icy kaboom" will hit is anyone's guess, but suffice to say, whoever it is, they likely won't mind. As for the shallowness of the N lines, Putrid Bile is stronger than Icy Veins - if I had to choose between the two on a bar specced into Death Magic, it wouldn't be close. Not that Putrid Bile is terribly good either. The main question is if a character, in any serious PvE setting, is ever justified to churn out 10e and 1s every 6 seconds for the sad damage that is Icy Veins. I've never felt that inclination.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

23 Jan 2008 at 11:55 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Unfortunately, spirit light weapon is pretty terrible.

Why yes. Yes it is. So is Weapon of Remedy; it's a marginal skill in big fights period, with none of its strong points being relevant in PvE. Spirit Light and Mend Body and Soul are going to outperform either elite Resto weapon, and Preservation is awful.

Which is why I'd run Icy Veins or even Reaper's Mark in that slot. They at least give you another ability, even if they aren't anywhere near money.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moloch Vein A human player will also have a marginally easier time with WoR than running Icy Veins

That is the only reason I would run a Restoration elite over Icy Veins. I think there's a strong case for not running an elite on that character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Regarding the "focused" damage of Icy Veins, the initial damage is so weak as to be nearly non-existent. That depends heavily on where you're playing and what you're throwing it at. It's obviously awful against hard mode centaurs, but it's not worthless against, say, normal mode EotN Charr.

The explosion effect is similar of course; it's worthless if you're fighting Jotuns, but it's far from worthless against big stone summit, undead or other mobs packed in tight dungeon corridors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The main question is if a character, in any serious PvE setting, is ever justified to churn out 10e and 1s every 6 seconds for the sad damage that is Icy Veins. The kinds of characters that would run Icy Veins are not the kinds of characters I would want in Hard Mode; certainly not on a player character. I can see running it on a hero if you need some odd niche thing but that's the extent of it.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

23 Jan 2008 at 16:56 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Disagree, again. Weapon of Remedy is good because:

1, it gives you another spammable healing and condition-removal spell, complementing Spirit Light and MbaS
2, and more importantly, it is good when things actually go bad, for example, when your spirits are nuked; when you don't have the time to throw up another Life because of some hard damage; when you have to run for an ally. Unlike Spirit Light Weapon, Icy Veins or Reaper's Mark it is a skill that will actually make a difference on an N/Rt healer bar in a tight spot.

Quote:

That depends heavily on where you're playing and what you're throwing it at. It's obviously awful against hard mode centaurs, but it's not worthless against, say, normal mode EotN Charr.

The explosion effect is similar of course; it's worthless if you're fighting Jotuns, but it's far from worthless against big stone summit, undead or other mobs packed in tight dungeon corridors.

I agree completely. That's why I agreed when you earlier said:
Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign

Even if you have a monstrous Soul Reaping spec the damage is pathetic in any of the advanced stages of the game, where armor respecting damage starts to lose value quickly. Like I said... it's a great spell when farming Ornate Grawl Necklaces! And if you're talking about "big summit, undead or other mobs packed in tight dungeon corridors"... one casting of Spiteful Spirit will rape ten Icy Veins. How can any reasonable PvE group have a problem clearing such an obstacle?

Furthermore;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The kinds of characters that would run Icy Veins are not the kinds of characters I would want in Hard Mode; certainly not on a player character. I can see running it on a hero if you need some odd niche thing but that's the extent of it. That depends on what you mean by "wanting" them. Example of, in my opinion, quite viable use of a dedicated N/Rt healer build:

Eternal Grove and Gyala Hatchery HM. Both missions hero'ed in company with a W/ friend, for Guardian of Cantha title. Quickly we realized we had no hope to save all the mini turtles with no human healer - all spawns of Kurzick could not be eliminated before march. Same applied for resisting the waves in Eternal Grove. Obviously, I went healer, since my W/ friend clearly could not. With me switching from hex to heal, we cleared both missions.

thor hammerbane

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Dark Side of the Moon

Fat Kids Are Hard To Kid[nap]

23 Jan 2008 at 19:56 - 77

Blood does suck... Can't provide good offense, can't provide good pressure, can't provide any shutdown. Curses is by far the best necro line out there. It can damage, shutdown, pressure, everything packed into one little package. Death magic is a tad overrated in my mind. It's just used for minion masters. I used to use the toxic chill necro/assasin in ra, but after that blew up into oblivion, I ditched it. Yes, I used it before it became everyone necro's wet dream. But, I digress..back on topic

For necros, Curse>All

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

23 Jan 2008 at 21:35 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

1, it gives you another spammable healing and condition-removal spell, complementing Spirit Light and MbaS

Except it's worse than both of them. How many spammable healing spells do you need? You can certainly run it as a 3rd spam heal if you really must, but I think, as I've said, that spending your elite on a 3rd spam heal, that is weaker than the other two you already have, is worse than giving yourself another ability. Wielder's Boon is a stronger skill in the situations that matter than Weapon of Remedy, and I personally wouldn't bother running that either since the first two heals do such a good job as is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

2, and more importantly, it is good when things actually go bad No, actually, it's utter shit when things actually go bad because it's the weakest and least efficient skill on your bar. Unless you have some definition of things going bad where you still have bottomless energy and the luxury of time, the skill on your bar with the *worst* health per second spent casting, and the *worst* health per energy does not suddenly become money.

Things going to hell is actually when Spirit Light Weapon becomes valuable at all, because the damage coming in is widespread enough that your 1.5 copies of Weapon of Warding can't cover things effectively anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

And if you're talking about "big summit, undead or other mobs packed in tight dungeon corridors"... one casting of Spiteful Spirit will rape ten Icy Veins. How can any reasonable PvE group have a problem clearing such an obstacle? No, the difference between Icy Veins and Spiteful Spirit in those situations is not 10-fold. It might not even be 2-fold. It might not even be better at all. How can any group have a problem clearing such an obstacle? Do we only have builds for areas we're having problems with?

Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor, and Icy Veins, for the most part, all do the same job - they do incidental damage to non-priority mobs, cleaning up a beaten mob more quickly. How effective each is depends on what you are fighting; how many of them there are, their armor levels, and how quickly things are dying.

Of course Spiteful is the best of the 3 in the hardest areas of hard mode PvE. On the other hand, Icy Veins does outperform Spiteful Spirit in a lot of areas of normal mode PvE. Mobs don't always have 100 armor, and they don't always take forever to kill. When I herohenched my way through EotN with my Necro I ran Icy Veins on occasion and I didn't think it bad at all. It was downright good in some of the Charr and Asuran areas.

What exactly is your point, that Icy Veins is not good in the hardest of Hard Mode areas? Well duh. That's a far cry from 'this skill is useless and you shouldn't run it anywhere', a point you've been trying to make that is, bluntly, moronic.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

23 Jan 2008 at 22:20 - 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No, actually, it's utter shit when things actually go bad because it's the weakest and least efficient skill on your bar. Unless you have some definition of things going bad where you still have bottomless energy and the luxury of time, the skill on your bar with the *worst* health per second spent casting, and the *worst* health per energy does not suddenly become money.

In PvE, weapon of remedy really has no purpose but as a space filler when you have nothing better to do - just like icy veins. The big reason to take WoR over icy veins is just to ease up on the micromanagement - mashing buttons towards allies is easier than mashing buttons towards allies and enemies. I agree that in tight situations, you should stay far away it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Things going to hell is actually when Spirit Light Weapon becomes valuable at all, because the damage coming in is widespread enough that your 1.5 copies of Weapon of Warding can't cover things effectively anymore. Any way you look at it, spirit light weapon is pretty shitty. First, it's a heal over time. When things are getting dicey, you need healing now, not 10 seconds from now. Second, the numbers aren't all that great on it. It's going to heal between 120-240 health over 10 seconds, while spirit light heals for 156. In practice, your melee isn't going to give a shit about staying in range of spirits, so you end up on the lower end of that range. I really can't think of a situation where I'd strongly prefer SLW to a simple spirit light. It's not a replacement for weapon of warding, it's an elite healing breeze that screws over any other weapon spells you might want to use.

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

23 Jan 2008 at 22:27 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

First of all, a necromancer does tend to have pretty decent energy when things do go bad. At least, he tends to have better energy than most everyone around him.

Second, WoR is a skill that's got practically unconditional condition removal, it's practically uninterruptable and needs to be slowed 4x to get as slow to cast as Spirit Light - a very fast cast - and it always provides the exact same effect regardless of the presence of spirits.

Quote: Things going to hell is actually when Spirit Light Weapon becomes valuable at all, because the damage coming in is widespread enough that your 1.5 copies of Weapon of Warding can't cover things effectively anymore. When things go to hell, generally speaking, an extra five (or ten if you're lucky) pips of health regeneration isn't going to save the day. The raw healing power of both spells isn't great, but WoR recharges faster, provides more spam capability, and includes a secondary effect that can very well be most useful.

Quote:

No, the difference between Icy Veins and Spiteful Spirit in those situations is not 10-fold. It might not even be 2-fold. It might not even be better at all.

[...]

Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor, and Icy Veins, for the most part, all do the same job - they do incidental damage to non-priority mobs, cleaning up a beaten mob more quickly. How effective each is depends on what you are fighting; how many of them there are, their armor levels, and how quickly things are dying.

Of course Spiteful is the best of the 3 in the hardest areas of hard mode PvE. On the other hand, Icy Veins does outperform Spiteful Spirit in a lot of areas of normal mode PvE. Mobs don't always have 100 armor, and they don't always take forever to kill. When I herohenched my way through EotN with my Necro I ran Icy Veins on occasion and I didn't think it bad at all. It was downright good in some of the Charr and Asuran areas.

What exactly is your point, that Icy Veins is not good in the hardest of Hard Mode areas? Well duh. That's a far cry from 'this skill is useless and you shouldn't run it anywhere', a point you've been trying to make that is, bluntly, moronic. First of all, there isn't much reason to get insulting. I have tried my best to treat people with respect. I do expect the same courtesy by a well-known and liked member of the forum, despite disagreeing with you.

Second, let's take these things one by one.

"Spiteful Spirit, Spoil Victor, and Icy Veins, for the most part, all do the same job - they do incidental damage to non-priority mobs, cleaning up a beaten mob more quickly."

This isn't true. Their function isn't the same at all. SV deals focused damage to a priority target. The fact that the target isn't called for focused fire means nothing.

Spiteful Spirit pressures and kills PvE mobs on its own. There is no single character in the game capable of delivering more damage per second to a PvE mob than an SS necromancer.

Only Icy Veins fits the profile you described.

Of course Spiteful is the best of the 3 in the hardest areas of hard mode PvE. On the other hand, Icy Veins does outperform Spiteful Spirit in a lot of areas of normal mode PvE. Mobs don't always have 100 armor, and they don't always take forever to kill.

This is also false, unless you're talking about Old Ascalon dye farming. As soon as enemies reach your own level or higher, generally speaking, SS will be a lot stronger. The exact cutpoint is open to debate.

What exactly is your point, that Icy Veins is not good in the hardest of Hard Mode areas? Well duh.

No, that was never my point. My point is that when the bars you are running matter, Icy Veins is weak to abysmal.