I'm a causual player who mostly plays at the end of the evening. EotN adds a lot in role playing and I find the concept of dungeons really great! Only... Way too often I find myself in a hopeless situation when I finally get to the endlevel monster. Cyndr, Murakai, Remnant of Antiquities... And lots more are bosses who require a special team build to beat them. I did it with Cyndr but I'm getting a bit tired that I have to figure it out time after time. Its not the way I like to play. And its not the way I like to end the evening.
Playing 3 dungeon levels smootly should not end in puzzle where you:
1. have to figure out a completely new build
2. have to capture a new skillset before you can continue
Maybe this is fun for HM players but please let NM players do it the way they like to play most: explore, kill, some puzzles and a satisfactory smooth end of the level. Giving a good feeling when you turn the computer off and go to sleep.
Should Normal Mode not be easier?
Pandora's box
blurmedia
What do you mean require a special item built? of those you listed only cyndr has to be blown up with explosives before you can do anything.
And if you cant figure out what to do, wiki is your friend
And if you cant figure out what to do, wiki is your friend
mage767
I guess you could team up with other casual players instead of having to buy new skill sets, although teaming up can be a difficult process.
Most HM players are selective and therefore usually play alone using their heroes, except in a few elite areas where henchies are unavailable.
Most HM players are selective and therefore usually play alone using their heroes, except in a few elite areas where henchies are unavailable.
The Meth
The best solution is to either cheat and look on wiki and base your build around that, or just go in with enough counters in your bag of tricks to shut down anything that can be thrown at you. Every boss encounter boils down to this: either badass caster who can wipe your party if they get 2 spells off, or physical attacker that isn't all that bad but has a group with them. Just plan on countering both of those situations and it isn't too bad. Thankfully even if you can't straight up fight them most bosses you can just bum rush them over and over and they fall eventually.
EotN is supposed to be harder then the other areas, thats why its an expansion.
EotN is supposed to be harder then the other areas, thats why its an expansion.
tekDragon
You have to keep things in perspective. True it's normal mode, but we're also talking about dungeons with end chest rewards. Even in NM they're supposed to be tougher. Think of them like end missions in normal mode.
Soo... casual or not you're expected to kick it up a notch on the planning and team tweaking when you enter them. Your best defence against your attempt ending in disaster is to plan ahead as Meth says and look up the wiki. Otherwise get some balance in your team, be prepared to deal with massive elemental AoE casters... they're the ones that really get you.
Oh yeah and if you dont want to have to alter your team setup by an iota... do yourself a favour just dont go to Shards of Orr or Catacombs of Kathandrax (among others).
Soo... casual or not you're expected to kick it up a notch on the planning and team tweaking when you enter them. Your best defence against your attempt ending in disaster is to plan ahead as Meth says and look up the wiki. Otherwise get some balance in your team, be prepared to deal with massive elemental AoE casters... they're the ones that really get you.
Oh yeah and if you dont want to have to alter your team setup by an iota... do yourself a favour just dont go to Shards of Orr or Catacombs of Kathandrax (among others).
Marty Silverblade
I've done most of the NM dungeons and the only one that made me have to come back later (which I still haven't gotten around to doing), is catacombs of Kathandrax. I don't see much point in making it easier.
Btw, about the 'I don't want to have to change my build around because something is too hard', isn't this kind of the point about GW?
Btw, about the 'I don't want to have to change my build around because something is too hard', isn't this kind of the point about GW?
treknut
As far as Remnant of Antiquities is concerned, I breezed thru the dungeon only to not only die very quickly against Remnant, but do little to no damage to him. BTW I'm a nuker. I read the wiki, took 2 interrupt archers, 1 hero, 1 hench, Jora, Dunk, earth made, healer +1 and Remnant went down in less than 2 minutes.
Arkantos
The "omg normal mode is too hard" threads are getting old. Really, they are. So what, you have to bring a few special skills to kill a certain boss, but is it going to kill you? I mean honestly. Just because you have to make some changes and the end boss of a dungeon is somewhat challenging doesn't mean ANet should make it easier, it means you need to get better. If you want super easy games, maybe MMO's (or CORPG's if you want to be more specific) aren't the games for you.
tmakinen
I can see the OP's concern as in 'it should be possible to beat every normal mode dungeon in EotN with the same balanced (H+H) build if played skillfully' and I must concur. Normal mode is for casual play and it cannot be expected that players check the wiki before every expedition. The question is, are there NM end bosses that absolutely require some gimmick builds because a standard build just isn't going to cut it no matter how smartly executed. Cyndr might qualify, it is certainly the only one that made me abort the first attempt when it became apparent that my default (very defensive) H+H build coudn't make enough damage during the windows of opportunity. Ilsundur in its current, souped up form, is a pretty formidable opponent as well, and then there's of course Duncan. Other than those three, I haven't found NM bosses hard at all (even Fendi Nin, the fight is stupidly long but not terribly challenging).
Hard Mode then is a completely different issue and I am disappointed if one can just stroll through a HM dungeon without giving due consideration to build and tactics beforehands.
Hard Mode then is a completely different issue and I am disappointed if one can just stroll through a HM dungeon without giving due consideration to build and tactics beforehands.
Jaceb
Straigth out of the box i can only think of Duncan that requires some new tactics (gimmick? nah :P) to safely beat him (H&H) - two tactics to use. Everything else is safely beatable if you bring one Ranger with bha & pet (optional). Those other two heroes can be anything you want. (tip: BHA heroes can use the skill all the time if you disable all other attack skills: constant daze).
Not that the ranger is mandatory either but that solves a lot of problems. Just a thought since you mostly listed caster bosses which most eotn bosses are actually. I dont think anything else is needed as much as interrupts(daze) against dungeon bosses when you bring that there's usually nothing to worry about. By the way HM can feel like NM sometimes so when the safety is starting to be boring spice it up with mesmer heroes for example.
NM isn't that tough
. man up!.
Not that the ranger is mandatory either but that solves a lot of problems. Just a thought since you mostly listed caster bosses which most eotn bosses are actually. I dont think anything else is needed as much as interrupts(daze) against dungeon bosses when you bring that there's usually nothing to worry about. By the way HM can feel like NM sometimes so when the safety is starting to be boring spice it up with mesmer heroes for example.
NM isn't that tough
. man up!.
N1ghtstalker
some area's in NM are really hard that is true
think of the Shiverpeaks or some dungeon's endboss: for example the anvil of dragrimmar was insane
also the asura area seems hard with those angoradons
and above all: Molotov Rocktail in the vanguard area
think of the Shiverpeaks or some dungeon's endboss: for example the anvil of dragrimmar was insane
also the asura area seems hard with those angoradons
and above all: Molotov Rocktail in the vanguard area
steel singer
Oh come on, even with 7 henches you can beat EotN :S
You just don't play a mending/healing breeze wammo and you're fine..
AND before you bought it you could know that EotN should have been harder than the others.. Because they are for lvl 20's only they made it a tiny bit harder..
You just don't play a mending/healing breeze wammo and you're fine..
AND before you bought it you could know that EotN should have been harder than the others.. Because they are for lvl 20's only they made it a tiny bit harder..
Squishy ftw
Quote:
Originally Posted by steel singer
Oh come on, even with 7 henches you can beat EotN :S
You just don't play a mending/healing breeze wammo and you're fine.. In that case I would like to see you do shards, vloxen, slaver's with 7 henches and a meleemancer.
You just don't play a mending/healing breeze wammo and you're fine.. In that case I would like to see you do shards, vloxen, slaver's with 7 henches and a meleemancer.
Pandora's box
Hmmm, maybe I should make some things clear.
I finished Prophecies, Nightfall and EotN with my hench/hero team without much problems. There were some encounters which required extra investigation but with the help of this forum and the Wiki every problem could be solved.
After completing a game I continue playing, either ‘causual’ in NM, doing a quick game at the end of the evening, or more prepared (sometimes even in HM) in the weekends. During these sessions I notice that entering dungeons unprepared in NM mostly is suicide. Yet, to my opinion, playing in NM should never lead to a situation where you find yourself out of options at the end of the level (not talking about restarting and preparing yourself – I think that is the nature of HM). What I expect from NM dungeons is this:
-If your team can clear the dungeon smoothly than it should have no problems with the endlevel boss.
-If the endlevel boss requires a differend teambuild than your team should not be able at all to progress in the dungeon, so you get the message immediately after entering: go back and rebuild your team!
I don’t mind investigating builds. Its often fun. I do mind playing some hours late at evening, expecting a smooth game, and than get a nasty surprise just at the end. For HM this should be ok. For NM… No. There is another thread around about making HM more interesting, and I fully agree with the suggestions there: more challenge, better rewards! At the same time I would say for NM: if you can get to the endlevel, than you should be able to beat the boss –always!- but the rewards may be smaller.
I finished Prophecies, Nightfall and EotN with my hench/hero team without much problems. There were some encounters which required extra investigation but with the help of this forum and the Wiki every problem could be solved.
After completing a game I continue playing, either ‘causual’ in NM, doing a quick game at the end of the evening, or more prepared (sometimes even in HM) in the weekends. During these sessions I notice that entering dungeons unprepared in NM mostly is suicide. Yet, to my opinion, playing in NM should never lead to a situation where you find yourself out of options at the end of the level (not talking about restarting and preparing yourself – I think that is the nature of HM). What I expect from NM dungeons is this:
-If your team can clear the dungeon smoothly than it should have no problems with the endlevel boss.
-If the endlevel boss requires a differend teambuild than your team should not be able at all to progress in the dungeon, so you get the message immediately after entering: go back and rebuild your team!
I don’t mind investigating builds. Its often fun. I do mind playing some hours late at evening, expecting a smooth game, and than get a nasty surprise just at the end. For HM this should be ok. For NM… No. There is another thread around about making HM more interesting, and I fully agree with the suggestions there: more challenge, better rewards! At the same time I would say for NM: if you can get to the endlevel, than you should be able to beat the boss –always!- but the rewards may be smaller.
Longasc
Sorry, you have Ursan Blessing and a ton of consumables.
I do not think GW should be a game where one bad build of a very average player is enough to conquer all areas. Normal mode is already easier than it was before Hard Mode was introduced, do not forget that.
I do not think GW should be a game where one bad build of a very average player is enough to conquer all areas. Normal mode is already easier than it was before Hard Mode was introduced, do not forget that.
Thierry2
NM is easy enough already.. you can H/H Almost everything..
Pandora's box
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longasc
Sorry, you have Ursan Blessing and a ton of consumables.
I do not think GW should be a game where one bad build of a very average player is enough to conquer all areas. Normal mode is already easier than it was before Hard Mode was introduced, do not forget that. Did you read my post above?
Actually I'm a smiter/protector and I did not care capturing the 'changeling' skills (wolf, bear) because they don't seem to add to my teambuilds.
As for the consumables: if it takes 3 or 4 consumables per dungeon, than that will cost a hell lot of skillpoints, gold and materials. There would be no profit at all clearing dungeons this way
I do not think GW should be a game where one bad build of a very average player is enough to conquer all areas. Normal mode is already easier than it was before Hard Mode was introduced, do not forget that. Did you read my post above?
Actually I'm a smiter/protector and I did not care capturing the 'changeling' skills (wolf, bear) because they don't seem to add to my teambuilds.
As for the consumables: if it takes 3 or 4 consumables per dungeon, than that will cost a hell lot of skillpoints, gold and materials. There would be no profit at all clearing dungeons this way
Burst Cancel
You haven't provided any sort of justification for why things should be as easy as you want them. It's 'normal' mode, not "steamroller roflcopter lolmode". There's no rule (written or unwritten) that says that just because you can beat a bunch of normal monsters, that the boss necessarily falls to the same tactics. Have you actually played any decent game where the boss doesn't require any adjustment to beat?
Further, as others have said, dungeon bosses can be beaten H+H without special builds. It might not be as easy or efficient as using a gimmick build, but normal builds will work if played well.
Further, as others have said, dungeon bosses can be beaten H+H without special builds. It might not be as easy or efficient as using a gimmick build, but normal builds will work if played well.
angmar_nite
In every game, let it be a shooter or an RTS normal mode poses challenge. Winning should never be a guarantee. You could always die, and you still have to think.
tekDragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora's box
Yet, to my opinion, playing in NM should never lead to a situation where you find yourself out of options at the end of the level (not talking about restarting and preparing yourself – I think that is the nature of HM). What I expect from NM dungeons is this:
-If your team can clear the dungeon smoothly than it should have no problems with the endlevel boss.
-If the endlevel boss requires a differend teambuild than your team should not be able at all to progress in the dungeon, so you get the message immediately after entering: go back and rebuild your team!
I don’t mind investigating builds. Its often fun. I do mind playing some hours late at evening, expecting a smooth game, and than get a nasty surprise just at the end. For HM this should be ok. For NM… No. There is another thread around about making HM more interesting, and I fully agree with the suggestions there: more challenge, better rewards! At the same time I would say for NM: if you can get to the endlevel, than you should be able to beat the boss –always!- but the rewards may be smaller.
I'll have to respectfully disagree. What you're asking for is not normal mode but "easy" mode and that's not happening. Understand this, GWEN is a high level expansion meant to contain elite content, by all measures NM in GWEN should be harder than the rest of the game. However, in many respects it isnt. You can use HnH to beat everything in GWEN normal mode though some areas are riskier than others.
The above poster is right in saying that there should always be a risk that if you screw up badly, or that your build is horrendous, that you should die. But normal mode is very forgiving that way, you dont get booted at 60% dp and you can try and try again... and believe me it's possible to beat some bosses that way (I know I did when I was unprepared). Heck in elite areas in most of the other campaign if the party gets killed you get booted outright, but dungeons and GWEN NM missions have resurrection shrines. In that way GWEN normal mode is actually a fair bit *easier* than most of the other campaigns.
Chances are if Normal Mode has become that much of an issue for you, and I mean no disrespect here, that your builds arent very good. Luckily for you, the forums here are usually very helpful. Why dont you post your builds and se if we can't help you. What's your skill bar? Which heroes are your brining and what are their bars? Which henchies?
I dont have that much experience monking myself but I can tell you honestly, if you can mangle Pain Inverter into your bar that should help against a number of nasty AoE bosses (even in NM).
So there you have it... GWEN NM will likely not get any easier.
-If your team can clear the dungeon smoothly than it should have no problems with the endlevel boss.
-If the endlevel boss requires a differend teambuild than your team should not be able at all to progress in the dungeon, so you get the message immediately after entering: go back and rebuild your team!
I don’t mind investigating builds. Its often fun. I do mind playing some hours late at evening, expecting a smooth game, and than get a nasty surprise just at the end. For HM this should be ok. For NM… No. There is another thread around about making HM more interesting, and I fully agree with the suggestions there: more challenge, better rewards! At the same time I would say for NM: if you can get to the endlevel, than you should be able to beat the boss –always!- but the rewards may be smaller.
I'll have to respectfully disagree. What you're asking for is not normal mode but "easy" mode and that's not happening. Understand this, GWEN is a high level expansion meant to contain elite content, by all measures NM in GWEN should be harder than the rest of the game. However, in many respects it isnt. You can use HnH to beat everything in GWEN normal mode though some areas are riskier than others.
The above poster is right in saying that there should always be a risk that if you screw up badly, or that your build is horrendous, that you should die. But normal mode is very forgiving that way, you dont get booted at 60% dp and you can try and try again... and believe me it's possible to beat some bosses that way (I know I did when I was unprepared). Heck in elite areas in most of the other campaign if the party gets killed you get booted outright, but dungeons and GWEN NM missions have resurrection shrines. In that way GWEN normal mode is actually a fair bit *easier* than most of the other campaigns.
Chances are if Normal Mode has become that much of an issue for you, and I mean no disrespect here, that your builds arent very good. Luckily for you, the forums here are usually very helpful. Why dont you post your builds and se if we can't help you. What's your skill bar? Which heroes are your brining and what are their bars? Which henchies?
I dont have that much experience monking myself but I can tell you honestly, if you can mangle Pain Inverter into your bar that should help against a number of nasty AoE bosses (even in NM).
So there you have it... GWEN NM will likely not get any easier.
Pandora's box
Lol, the only thing I expect from Normal Mode is that if a player enters a dungeon without the proper build to slay the endlevel monster, the dungeon itself should give a clear and proper sign right at the start that this will be impossible - by beating the build right at the start!
In reverse I expect that when I can do a dungeon smoothly I also will be able to slay the endlevel monster without much problems because I have the right build for this dungeon.
And since so many dungeons can be done easily up to the endlevel, there is an imbalance because its quite normal that players expect a doable final with their current build. At least in Normal Mode. People who like a challenge play Hard Mode...
In reverse I expect that when I can do a dungeon smoothly I also will be able to slay the endlevel monster without much problems because I have the right build for this dungeon.
And since so many dungeons can be done easily up to the endlevel, there is an imbalance because its quite normal that players expect a doable final with their current build. At least in Normal Mode. People who like a challenge play Hard Mode...
tekDragon
You use different wording, but your meaning is essentially the same. You're asking for the boss to behave like the rest of the dungeon.
That's somewhat unreasonable given that the boss fights are special encounters with critters who have bumped up HP, faster casting, extra damage, and special unique skills. I think that given the context your expectations are unreasonable, and absolutely unlikely to be fulfilled. The developers will not make normal mode easier. It's just not happening. In fact the only change they've made to NM dungeons that I recall was to make one of the end bosses harder (in Catacombs of Kathandrax).
Clearly there's some reason why you believe firmly that you should have a smoother ride and you're not about to change your mind. So why dont we do something more productive and work on your builds?
That's somewhat unreasonable given that the boss fights are special encounters with critters who have bumped up HP, faster casting, extra damage, and special unique skills. I think that given the context your expectations are unreasonable, and absolutely unlikely to be fulfilled. The developers will not make normal mode easier. It's just not happening. In fact the only change they've made to NM dungeons that I recall was to make one of the end bosses harder (in Catacombs of Kathandrax).
Clearly there's some reason why you believe firmly that you should have a smoother ride and you're not about to change your mind. So why dont we do something more productive and work on your builds?
Pandora's box
Because I'm a roleplayer. I choose my profession carefully and I want to play it that way. And just like in any other roleplaying game I expect the game evironement to provide the solutions necessary to continue. So no going back to town, change builds including capturing new skills, whatever. The game should act like the DM: giving signs at the proper time. And workarounds if necessary. Somehow I have the feeling that those who object that are the ones who play HM. But this is about NM, it would never affect their gameplay...
tekDragon
LOL... well buddy, at this point you're beyond help, but I can tell you this much:
Normal Mode isnt about to get any easier and the dungeon bosses arent about to be nerfed to fit your particular RP vision.
You're also apparently completely unwilling to discuss your actual build. Which is a shame because people here could probably help you, even within the constraints you set yourself with your vision of how your character should be.
Oh well.
I'm sorry that GW isnt the game that your vision wants it to be. I guess at this point you have to figure out what that means to you (no sarcasm intended)
Normal Mode isnt about to get any easier and the dungeon bosses arent about to be nerfed to fit your particular RP vision.
You're also apparently completely unwilling to discuss your actual build. Which is a shame because people here could probably help you, even within the constraints you set yourself with your vision of how your character should be.
Oh well.
I'm sorry that GW isnt the game that your vision wants it to be. I guess at this point you have to figure out what that means to you (no sarcasm intended)
Destro Maniak
well actually ı dont think that the dungeons should be easier
BUT I THINK HOTS SHOULDNT BE MUST
It really is a hard dungeon boss. People who dont want the challenge should be able to proceed forward. Me too wasnt able to kill the boss. Tried touchers, and such but it wasnt any good. So I paid 10k to a runner. 10k isnt a big money. If you cant do a certain mission just hire a runner.
BUT I THINK HOTS SHOULDNT BE MUST
It really is a hard dungeon boss. People who dont want the challenge should be able to proceed forward. Me too wasnt able to kill the boss. Tried touchers, and such but it wasnt any good. So I paid 10k to a runner. 10k isnt a big money. If you cant do a certain mission just hire a runner.
tekDragon
I can see why people have a problem with HoS but I firmly believe it should stay the same.
Here's why:
Frist, it's supposed to be harder than the rest of the GWEN campaign. Lets face it, HoS marks the beginning of your trek through the final three missions of the "elite" GW campaign. Even in NM you should be expected to kick it up a notch.
Second, for many people it's the first through Dungeon boss they face in GWEN. It serves as a really helpful and somewhat accurate preview of the kind of encounter you will face in other dungeons.
Third, it is fully doable in NM with henchies by all classes. It just takes a little planning and willingness to alter your basic strategy. The first time I went I got my ass handed to me. I played as a ranger and his AoE skills destroyed me. I did 2 mins of research, re-arranged my build to include poison and bleeding, paid attention to the burning areas... piece of cake. Also managed easily after that with an Ele and a Warrior. The toucher thing is such a gimmick that I wont go near it.
I really feel for Pandora's Box when he/she says "And just like in any other roleplaying game I expect the game evironement to provide the solutions necessary to continue. So no going back to town, change builds including capturing new skills, whatever."
unfortunately... GW is unlike pretty much every other RP games in that it is specifically about encountering difficulties, going back to town, retooling, capturing new skills and then succeeding. That's what sets it apart and in many ways why many people love it. There is no other RP system like it, so applying your traditional RP thinking to this game will not work.
Here's why:
Frist, it's supposed to be harder than the rest of the GWEN campaign. Lets face it, HoS marks the beginning of your trek through the final three missions of the "elite" GW campaign. Even in NM you should be expected to kick it up a notch.
Second, for many people it's the first through Dungeon boss they face in GWEN. It serves as a really helpful and somewhat accurate preview of the kind of encounter you will face in other dungeons.
Third, it is fully doable in NM with henchies by all classes. It just takes a little planning and willingness to alter your basic strategy. The first time I went I got my ass handed to me. I played as a ranger and his AoE skills destroyed me. I did 2 mins of research, re-arranged my build to include poison and bleeding, paid attention to the burning areas... piece of cake. Also managed easily after that with an Ele and a Warrior. The toucher thing is such a gimmick that I wont go near it.
I really feel for Pandora's Box when he/she says "And just like in any other roleplaying game I expect the game evironement to provide the solutions necessary to continue. So no going back to town, change builds including capturing new skills, whatever."
unfortunately... GW is unlike pretty much every other RP games in that it is specifically about encountering difficulties, going back to town, retooling, capturing new skills and then succeeding. That's what sets it apart and in many ways why many people love it. There is no other RP system like it, so applying your traditional RP thinking to this game will not work.
tmakinen
I still think that the OP has a valid point, if the disparity between the overall dungeon vs. the end boss is too large. I am not a stranger to running H+H in challenging places and the standard triplet of anti-physical necro, anti-caster ranger and support para + henches has served me well in many a tight spot, latest runs this weekend were Oola's Lab HM (no casualties except myself at the end boss once, stupid instakill skill ), Arachni's Haunt HM (no casualties, coundn't see a difference to NM) and once again Selvetarm NM (some casualties, oh boy do the lawn ornaments aggro!) and in my opinion all those dungeons have an adequate balance between different monsters. However, as I mentioned earlier, the first time when me and H+H met Cyndr without wiki'ing it beforehands it made me take notice because my completely reasonable generalist build just wasn't going to cut it. It wasn't a question of poor build or poor execution, just a stalemate, so I restarted, made a custom build and rolled it without any difficulties. I don't think that it should be necessary to reroll in NM due to a decent generalist build not getting the job done no matter what.
It's not about making NM easier, it's about making it more even, and in my opinion there are some rough edges to level design in certain dungeons. It doesn't bother me personally since I'm not a casual player but I can relate to those who are. Snide comments about QQing and failing at GW are not terribly constructive, now are they?
It's not about making NM easier, it's about making it more even, and in my opinion there are some rough edges to level design in certain dungeons. It doesn't bother me personally since I'm not a casual player but I can relate to those who are. Snide comments about QQing and failing at GW are not terribly constructive, now are they?
Longasc
What you call rough edges is part of the gamedesign.
Moddok: Remove the runners, I do not curry snares in PvE usually
Ele Bosses: Remove double damage, 10 enery is too much for protection, I have only healing skills on my bar. Broad Head Arrow is a waste usually, so do not force me to bring it.
How about Shards of Orr, remove blindness plz, because it is annoying and I have to adjust the build according to it?
Make Cyndr easier, because it is clearly harder than the rest of the whole dungeon.
WTF, seriously.
THIS leads downhill, and does not make gameplay better or more viable. I also do not see what is wrong with failing a dungeon and adapting to get through it. Is this not part of the design of GW and that particular dungeon?
Moddok: Remove the runners, I do not curry snares in PvE usually
Ele Bosses: Remove double damage, 10 enery is too much for protection, I have only healing skills on my bar. Broad Head Arrow is a waste usually, so do not force me to bring it.
How about Shards of Orr, remove blindness plz, because it is annoying and I have to adjust the build according to it?
Make Cyndr easier, because it is clearly harder than the rest of the whole dungeon.
WTF, seriously.
THIS leads downhill, and does not make gameplay better or more viable. I also do not see what is wrong with failing a dungeon and adapting to get through it. Is this not part of the design of GW and that particular dungeon?
iridescentfyre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora's box
Because I'm a roleplayer. I choose my profession carefully and I want to play it that way. And just like in any other roleplaying game I expect the game evironement to provide the solutions necessary to continue. So no going back to town, change builds including capturing new skills, whatever. The game should act like the DM: giving signs at the proper time. And workarounds if necessary. Somehow I have the feeling that those who object that are the ones who play HM. But this is about NM, it would never affect their gameplay...
The game is what it is. If you feel the urge to have it changed to suit your "playstyle," maybe you would be better served by a different game. Eye of the North was designed for upper-level players who were bored of using the exact same tactics and builds for the past two and a half years who wanted something new, unique, and dynamic. We can debate forever if they succeeded, but at the very least we can agree that if Anet had made dungeons easy and predictable, they would suck.
I recommend researching dungeons you are not familiar with, so you can set up properly for them.
I recommend researching dungeons you are not familiar with, so you can set up properly for them.
{IceFire}
I have 2man +heroes every dungeon in both HM and NM, and in every case found the actual dungeon to be harder than the boss.
tmakinen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longasc
Ele Bosses: Remove double damage, 10 enery is too much for protection, I have only healing skills on my bar. Broad Head Arrow is a waste usually, so do not force me to bring it.
How about Shards of Orr, remove blindness plz, because it is annoying and I have to adjust the build according to it?
Make Cyndr easier, because it is clearly harder than the rest of the whole dungeon.
You don't have to tackle the Moddock runners to get through the mission, it's only needed when you're going for the titles and by then you should already know what to bring.
Protecting is an essential part of the game and I do carry BHA in my default build, it has much more uses than just ele boss shutdown. In many cases it's even better not to BHA the boss and instead feed it some minions with a side order of Pain Inverter.
I have nothing against Shards of Orr, the first time I went through to Gadd's encampment I had a very suboptimal build but I took notice and brought a more suitable one when going for the end boss. And it is an example of a dungeon where the difficulty of the end boss is on par with the rest of the dungeon, so there.
I'm not demanding that Cyndr should be made easier per se, just beatable with a reasonable generalist H+H build if played properly. I find it entirely unsatisfactory that some challenges force a gimmick build on you (say, bear club or glacial griffon, not that I couldn't do them, I just don't like the idea).
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Originally Posted by Longasc
I also do not see what is wrong with failing a dungeon and adapting to get through it. Is this not part of the design of GW and that particular dungeon?
As a rule of thumb, me and my H+H team never fails PvE even in HM and I've done pretty much all of it already. When the only such occurrence(1) that I can recall is a NM mission, I'd say that it is anomalous indeed. And as said, I don't find the idea of forced reroll too satisfying.
(1) Alpha testing doesn't count for obvious reasons
JoeKnowMo
The point is that Cyndr is a piece of cake with a Bloodspike or touch ranger build but is nigh impossible with a balanced build.
I always knew that bloodspike was leet. :P
tmakinen
Well, I think that the actual point of Cyndr is that it's laughably easy when you have real people running kegs and staying out of each other's immediate vicinity. With just 2 real players you can avoid collateral damage and keep the carapace down almost all the time. On your own, you're either out of luck or must take a specific build, and I don't like that. Wasn't this game supposed to be about skills as in execution and tactics and not as in Build Wars?
I would also like to point out that my balanced H+H team didn't have any difficulties in beating HoS and Magmus both in NM and HM. Sounds like a discrepancy to me.
blue.rellik
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
You don't have to tackle the Moddock runners to get through the mission, it's only needed when you're going for the titles and by then you should already know what to bring. Protecting is an essential part of the game and I do carry BHA in my default build, it has much more uses than just ele boss shutdown. In many cases it's even better not to BHA the boss and instead feed it some minions with a side order of Pain Inverter. I have nothing against Shards of Orr, the first time I went through to Gadd's encampment I had a very suboptimal build but I took notice and brought a more suitable one when going for the end boss. And it is an example of a dungeon where the difficulty of the end boss is on par with the rest of the dungeon, so there. I'm not demanding that Cyndr should be made easier per se, just beatable with a reasonable generalist H+H build if played properly. I find it entirely unsatisfactory that some challenges force a gimmick build on you (say, bear club or glacial griffon, not that I couldn't do them, I just don't like the idea). He was being sarcastic
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by blue.rellik
He was being sarcastic
He was being sarcastic by setting up a straw man argument. That's disingenuous as I said. We were talking about the difficulty of beating Cyndr with a balanced H+H team. A balanced H+H team can complete Moddock Crevice (mission). A balanced H+H team can beat double damage ele bosses. A balanced H+H team can beat Shards of Orr. What's the point of trying to discuss things when one side considers non sequiturs a valid device of argumentation?
arsie
GW:EN is an expansion. It is meant to be played by people who have completed at least one of the campaigns. I believe that the last few missions of the three campaigns are all at a difficulty level similar to the majority of GW:EN dungeons.
I believe that it is also hoped that anyone who have completed a campaign would know enough about the game, its mechanics and what skills are available, in order to start thinking and solving problems. Of course, tied to the apron strings of wikis and forums, some players have not got the habit of that. It is a simple matter of problem solving. Hmm, those undead in Shards of Orr are kicking my butt, what can I do? How do I mitigate the damage of Shock+Aftershock? How do I kill them when they have multiple monks? Of course, the solutions are in these very forums within hours/days. Someone else has solved the problem for you. There are 10 professions, 25 heroes, kazillion million skills, for a reason. Changing and adaptation is part and parcel of this game world in which you role-play in. But no, you are a role-player. And you're either role-playing a person who will never encounter a problem or an unadaptable person that is doomed to extinction. The Little Viking
Ive gone from beginnning to end in Gwen in both NM and HM. Both have their own challanges!!! (first time on necro, then on monk, currently working on ritualist). Did it all with either H/H or with 1 guildie and the team of heros. And the first thing I learned (day 1 to be exact) is I MUST be willing to play with my skills. Fortunatly for me before gwen, I took the time to get ALL elete skills from all 3 campaigns. But puting that aside, i have learned that if you bother to pay attention in the beginning of any dungeon, (not just charge through and move on) you will know by level 2 if you are set good for the end or not. Pay attention to what the mosters are and what they are doing/casting. are you going up against a lot of cold damage? yes? then it is only logical that the end boss is gonna be some sort of elemental with massive life line and energy and and some form of aoe. Mostly melle on level 1 should lead you to belive that the end boss is gonna be some sort of creature that is a hard hitter and massive armor. Prepare for this before going on to level 2, even if it does mean leaving and going back in after playing with the skills some. So you have to go cap a skill....or do you? Most eletes are good in a fashion (i know some would disagree with me on this but thats ok too), But just because you dont have a perticular elete, does not mean that you can not make it thru. Just because Joe says you MUST have SS, does not mean it is the only elete worth taking, or mary says you MUST have ineptitude. do not be fooled. (I will admit that those are 2 of my favorite eletes) After all, what works best for 1 may not work best for another. But please be willing to mess with the skills bar. If your ele, be flexable. Destroyers take half damage from fire, try air. Earth works pritty good agains those pesky little oozes. In valoxx go with a ranger with frozen soil and necros with wells. Just learn from your mistakes, and not try to change the game because your not willing to pay attention to your surroundings. If you want to fully enjoy the game, then you must be willing to adapt. Just because there is a monk in the team, does not mean that hes a definate healer. he could be a smiter. Hes learned to adapt. Just because someone is ele, does not mean hes using fire...same goes for necro...not all are MM. sometimes they even set up with some soul reaping skills belive it or not. They have adapted, and you should to.
strcpy
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Well, I think that the actual point of Cyndr is that it's laughably easy when you have real people running kegs and staying out of each other's immediate vicinity. With just 2 real players you can avoid collateral damage and keep the carapace down almost all the time. On your own, you're either out of luck or must take a specific build, and I don't like that. Wasn't this game supposed to be about skills as in execution and tactics and not as in Build Wars?
The problem with Cyndr also came down to that it had a one shot kill for any squishy. If you were with a H/H group this meant that you had half your party wiped in *one* shot and then it went down hill from there. If you didn't go read the forums or Wiki then you don't know life steal teams totally destroy him (and they make *any* team easy). It was *really* tough to beat Cyndr with a balanced H/H team, especially if you were the caster. My dervish and warrior breezed through him, my Necro and ele had to take the life steal groups.
Other than that one case, I can't agree with the OP - the dungeons are *supposed* to be end game stuff and *should* take builds like that. Were Cyndr not part of the required chest chain then I would agree - leave him as is, however it is a higher roadblock than GoM or THK ever were for a casual squishy player - it also needs you to have sufficient unlocks on Necro skills for non-necro classes (or just be dang good with your team - better than the vast majority). It hasn't promoted grouping, because again most groups don't seem to handle them even as good as the hench do so you end up with a 2-shot party wipe - however even a somewhat workable human party *should* and *does* wipe the floor with him. Ah well, this has been complained about for quite some time and isn't going to be "fixed" - most people stuck there are pointed towards the wiki's anyway and once there the mission is fairly easy (much easier than GoM even with a good H/H team build). tekDragon
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Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo
The point is that Cyndr is a piece of cake with a Bloodspike or touch ranger build but is nigh impossible with a balanced build.
That is unequivocally false, I've beaten him 3 times with HnH and I've never used a boodspike team. Never... it is quite possible to beat him with a balanced HnH team. Many other people have as well.
Just because your favourite balanced setup couldnt do it, doesnt mean it cant be done. It also doesnt mean that it's an issue that should be addressed. I'll grant that it'll be tougher for casual players, but it's very doable.
Quaker
Without reading the entire thread, the only thing I can add is that I've never used a "special" build to complete any dungeon in Normal Mode, with the possible exception of Duncan the Black.
When it came to Cyndr - I was using my usual H&H mini-B/P group. The main secret to Cyndr is to flag your H&Hs around Cyndr so they are more spread out. It does take some knowledge and practice with flagging, but that's not what I would call a "special" build. So, in answer to the original question - no Normal Mode shouldn't be easier, it's easy enough already. |
