GW2: No monthly fees - but how to make money?

I would stay play and pay if GW(2) had/is gona have a monthly fee.

Much as I loved GW, and still do, it hit a cap in PvE content a bit early for me. Played for years, had all classes but an assassin, but the level cap combined with item attribute maxes being hit too early made things max out too soon. All areas explored, max armor and weapons meant just seeking different skins, variety meant changing to another class and starting over, replay meant HM and titles of no real consequence (though I really enjoyed a few of them, like Legendary Guardian).

Cant say I have any complaints really, but I do long for a game with more continuous new content, more character development, more of a sense of a hunt for better equipment, larger world. GW2 possibly doesnt have to change anything, but just speaking for myself, if it was considerably expanded in some of these departments at the cost of having a monthly fee, I'd still desire to play it. I cant play more than one MMO at a time (can hardly affford the time for one), but I can afford $10/mo for 2-3 years ($240-360) if the game really was a lot deeper. No way I would have paid a monthly fee for GW.

Edit: the topic towards the end here was about monthly fees, so that was what I replied to. Looking back, its about micropayments.

Funny, I'd be more inclined to pay a monthly fee provided I saw the depth of the game up front, knew what I was getting, knew it was what I wanted, then just budgeted a year's worth of monthly fees and have done with it. Micropayments, on the other hand, for this little feature, that little addition etc, I would not do. That is just like the little things that add up on my real life bills - act now and get this new dungeon and that new feature and... I dont think so. I simply wouldnt play a micropayment oriented game.

Much in GW1 is really a sounding board, testing ground for GW2 -- what works and what does not.

Have you noticed changes to the In Game Store lately? You have to mention it because it's what will skyrocket GW2 and the MMO industry into the next revolution. WoWs next MMO will be a GW clone. Think I-Tunes and you are half way there. Much of what GW1 does, GW2 will likely do Ten Times better. It's not just the business model that will prove GW2's success, but the chance to explore truly revolutionary and untapped possibilities in Game design.

If GW2 gets it right they could sell near 5 million copies in their first year, all thanks to WoWs hard work at a flawless Asian Grinder that's tapped a very large market. WoWs next MMO will be a GW Clone.

Basically what you're saying is, if GW2 is successful, everyone (probably not just Blizzard as you try to say, as I don't think it is the only game developer) will make a clone of it? Isn't that a little obvious thing to say?

I don't see ANY OF THEM success with cloning WoW, though.

They will make money the same way they have been able to make money for GW1. I do not understand why the OP thinks that this business model is not working or that it will not work. I belive GW has started something great, with this business model, and have shown that it is possible to have a no subsciption fee MMO game.

Back in 2003 I was flipping an issue of PC Gamer and saw an article about an online game that is not charging monthly fees, it cought my eye.

Thats the only reason why I picked up GW and played it. Now granted its one of my favorite games now and thats why I keep playing it.

I'm one of the people that refuse to pay rental charges on a game I already bought.

They would lose business changing

for example in my house

I play - my hubby plays - my two kids play

that is 4x everything

now if there was a monthly fee on top we would have to drop at least 2 accounts and since it was something we could do together as a family maybe even more.

I imagine there are others in the same situation or other multiple account holders wjo would go to one account

There already is a monthly free in releasing expansions faster than anyone else and not supporting old content. There will probably be talk of GW3 by 2010.

Ditto. Put in me back in the "hostage situation" of continually paying or losing out on the option to do something as minor as play a couple of hours on a weekend whenever the urge strikes me and I'll just reinstate my WoW subscription. GW is only my preferred game because of the flexibility it offers me for my gaming time. If it's a question of GW or WoW, well, GW2 would have to be very, very, very, very good for me to commit to any sort of constant money drain. Good or even very good is not enough to commit to a sub.

This idea, though while I could easily afford it, would make me skip out GW2. I have no qualms about paying a monthly fee, but its the urgency of getting as much as you can out of 15 dollars a month that upsets me. GW has been a perfect allowance of online gaming for me, I can spend hours or minutes playing, put it down for a while (like I have a tendency to do), and come back to it without having to worry about accounts, or losing characters, etc etc. I can just pick it up like I do CS:S or Half Life. I think ANet did an incredible job of creating a new system for an "MMO". It is most likely a large reason why GW has been so successful.

Simply said, I want that freedom of choice in game, not the rushed feeling I get when I play p2p games.

I played Shattered Galaxy. The day I got a bill, I paid, and played maybe a month, then felt too rushed and quit. I agree with Trialist on that for sure. I loved that game, but once I had to pay the monthly fee, I didn't like it anymore. Some people have 8000 hours a year to play an MMO, most people who were attracted to the GW model are not like that.

And as a side note, I don't quite understand where people are saying GW1 was a demo for GW2. I mean, F'ing duh? What are they going to do, completely abandon what has worked? The moment a game is successful, any sane developer is thinking on how to improve and serialize their achievement (and sometimes it doesn't work). Of course GW1 will be used to create GW2, GW2 is going to be GW1 evolved. Fairly simple to understand, no?

GW was designed for one kind of 'awesomely special' practical online gamer...

One who knows the value of money. [if you've got money to 'throw away', then yeah, it's your call, get outta GW and play WoW then ya fools]

I know people who have student loans and car payments and mortgages who would definitely ditch GW in a heartbeat should it go p2p. It got the #1 award at mmosite as a p2p game but I think they got the definition off. You do pay to play GW but you only pay once ^_^

I'd ditch GW if it went p2p. The only reason I don't play anymore is cause of Hellgate London [also kinda copying GW but with an optional subscription fee, it's of very minor consequence] My former guild disbanded way back in 2k6 due to school and stuff but I've NEVER played on online RPG for as long or had as much fun as GW.

An item cash shop would work on the condition that people who bought stuff only look cooler and will have no impact on the PvE OR PVP versions of the game.

Whoever suggested this game 'suddenly' turn P2P is just asking, literally, to KILL THE GAME... My hate for you knows no bounds and if anyone wants to suggest this game turn P2P, gtfo and play WoW. No other P2P games have enough players to interact with anyway... lol

GW2 will not have a monthly fee. No doubt about that!

This has been stated so often by ANet, Gaile, and the community. We do not need to question this.


This was not the point of the thread:
There are many more ways to suck money out of your pocket!

I think some people know Silkroad - it is completely free. But they have their ways to make regular players spend money so that the difference to "no fee" gets smaller.


My fear is that we are heading towards that could be "not so optional" and basically replace a monthly fee... micropayments galore!

Do you not see a trend? The store gets more products, slowly but steadily. See the BMP as a test. People pay 9 bucks (I think it is 8,99 EUR) for this rather limited piece of content. Sounds like a very good deal for ANet to me! Even better, they waited till we (or some of us... I did not! :>) begged for it. So they did us even a favor. This smells a bit and I hope they do not overdo with things like that.


EDIT: Think of mini expansions for 5$ every month. You can bet on people buying that, those who bought the BMP will for sure!

Well then knowing I have half a brain and a wallet to pay attention to, its pretty easy for me to say, oh well, it was fun, time to move on. I mean seriously. Its a game. If someone attempts to heckle you in the streets, and you see through the lies, do you come online and complain that someone tried to cheat you but if they didn't next time you would buy from them? I hope not.

If Guild Wars gets micropayment-style, it will be dissapointing, yes. But will I sludge the payments and play? No. I think that is the general consensus here.

Its as simple as that.

No monthly fees.

Bonus content through the online store.

(I would pay ~30 bucks for the remaining Realms of the Gods.)



I'm sure ArenaNet understands that GW will never be the UNSTOPPABLE HYPER-ADDICTIVE MONEY-STORM OF DOOM FROM HELL that is WoW.

Guild Wars has a whole other scope. Gamers with jobs, for starters.

Anyhow, the business model works. Great for them, great for us.

I am quite sure they realise that dude . Its what they base their entire model on. I would say there is a small chunk of players who don't realize that, but not ANet lol.

Pay to Play is the worst idea in gaming history. I never played an MMO til GW just because of the fees. I did test out WoW for a few months and hated it. its HUGE and extremly boring. 14.99 a month? FOR THIS?! LOL!

If GW2 charged a fee, i'd playing GW1 instead. thx. Its not a matter of having the 14.99 monthly to spend on a game. Its the fact that I don't like spending 14.99 a month for the SAME GAME!

I don't get all the fuss. Add up the cost of Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, and GWEN. Even if you get some discounts it's gonna be $150 - $200 per account. Compare this to World of Warcraft, where if you buy time in bulk, it costs $13-$15 a month. After a year of play, the costs of the two games are equal. In fact, it costs more to play GW than WoW for the first year. After another full year, you've paid about $300 for WoW. That's more than GW, but if you're that addicted to the game, you've undoubtedly made up for the difference by not going on dates, not buying new games, etc. Ah, but in the 3rd year we'll begin to see savings. No, in the 3rd year ANet will release a new game with updated graphics.

My point is that we are talking about very little difference in cost between ANet's system and a subscription system. Let me address some rebuttal points:

First - "I get more flexibility with ANet's system. With a subscription I'm forced to play or lose my money." This is all in your mind. With any purchase you should be considering how much time you have to enjoy it. If I spend $150 dollars to play GW for a year, there is no magical feather given to me that says I can play as little as I want. I've already paid, up front. It doesn't matter one whit how much I play now. In fact, in a subscription system I can cancel during busy months and renew later, which saves money. You *think* WoW's system forces you to play because you have to pay every month. But really if you think about it, it is *more* flexible than a pay-up-front system. Granted it is a little more expensive.

Second - "What if I buy only 1 campaign.." Obviously, this is a very cheap way to go. I'm talking mostly about semi-hardcore gamers who would buy Proph, Factions, NF, and GWEN, and do it right after launch, not years later in a package deal. I think most of the people on these boards fall into that category. Furthermore, ANet pushes you hard to buy all their campaigns, with campaign-specific skills, many campaign-specific features such as heroes and AB. In fact titles, perhaps the greatest PvE driving force, all but require all campaigns or you can max maybe 15 total. If you PvP you need all 4 even more, although there are unlock packs for that so w/e.

I tried to play the devil's advocate here because so many people keep harping on "no monthly fees" and I don't think it's a big deal. It's a propaganda piece for ANet, and it really doesn't cost them that much money at all. Think about how long you've played this game, and how much you've spent on it. And remember that not playing in WoW is no more of a waste of money than not playing in GW, or not using anything else you've paid for. Pay to play is just like leasing a car instead of buying it outright. For some reason, people find it distasteful, when in certain situations it makes financial sense. Businesses know what they're doing. It's simple economics and I can guarantee they've made a profit on GW. The real difference between Blizzard's profit and ANet's is the sheer number of people playing WoW, not the payment scheme.

I hate Micro payments for special ingame items, then you will have a few people who wants to pay a lot of money for GW2 and they will own everybodey ells who doesn`t wants to pay for those special items.

I always though that Anet was started by some people (some of them from Blizzard) who expressly disagreed with the Fee policy. Strongly believing in the 'Pay once to enjoy the content'. That an online game can succeed without monthly fees.

I don't know you, but I'm quite satisfied with the result... and each update makes it better!

Still this is better because unlike subsription model, you would have to pay at least 5$ just to play, this way you pay that 5$ and you get some new things added to Guild Wars.

This is dumb.


You're suggesting that they get selfish and try to get even more money out of the game. I REALLY LIKE playing games under a company that isnt selfish.

Think about EA.... I rest my case.

If you dont know let me list it for you: No game works well on first release because they are spitting out games at a higher rate than they should, sequels mean you are gonna lose cool features like replay systems, THEY RESORTED TO USING SPYWARE TECHNIQUES FOR INGAME ADS!

We do not want a company like EA.

Arena.Net cares about their game, they didn't make it just for the money.

Monthly payments are a ripoff, im VERY glad Arena.Net has chosen to prove that MMOs can go without.

If they say they are doing well, take their freaking word for it and dont even dare try to imagine GW with monthly fees.

It's been pretty hard pinpointing exactly on what I've been wanting to say about this.

"The beauty of Guild Wars' payment system is that you can play whenever you want, quit whenever you want." Quite frankly this is getting a tidbit tiresome. As I've stated before, the Guild Wars payment model is exactly like that of a single-player game with multiple expansions. The only differences being that all but one of GW's expansions are standalone and that you have to play online to enjoy the content. So to call its business model "revolutionary" is quite false. If it was an MMO then this would be different, but its about as MMO as Hellgate: London (which in itself is as much an MMO as Diablo.)

In terms of success, it depends on your perspective. As an RPG it's done solid: 4 million copies sold is pretty good. As an MMO, not so much. The success of an MMO is generally decided by the number of active players. While we don't know Guild Wars' number of active players, we can at least look at these limitations: How many copies per an account? How many accounts per person? The more possibilities you come up with, the smaller that 4mil starts to appear. If I had to throw up a random number in the air I'd say GW had about less than a million active players. (and if you're gonna go by copies sold then GW is totally crushed: If WoW is as bad a game as everyone here says it is, then it has to have had copies sold up the wazoo to still be able to hold onto 10mil players.)

It's only a ripoff if you feel ripped off. For me? I'm glad to support WoW and am happy of all the content they've given me, and I would do the same for GW.

Popularity and advertising ofcoarse. Its the standard for an MMO right now, and it only makes sense to go to the popular one.


As for supporting GW, buy character slots.


I tried LOTRO and liked it, but there was no way i could stay with the monthly payments there. I had to quit. I really hated feeling like I had to play everyday or quit and never play again. Well I had to just, quit and not look back...

Its the peace of mind that counts. I like to play games at my own pace.

Guild Wars stood strong for a long time, it isnt slowly losing players because of the lack of payments, its because of the type of game it is. Its not built like a standard MMO and surprised me that the game did so well to last till even today.

As for GW2 being more like a regular MMO (but still original as i'd expect from GW) I think it could stand even longer.

As for beating WoW, you cant. You can not beat WoW's sales. It's just way too established.

Diablo 2 certainly didn't hurt for players. A good game with no fees can sell a lot of copies and stay active for a long time.

I wouldnt pay to play for anything really. I dont see why I should have to pay addtional fees on top of what i pay in the shop just the use the product. I can understand a game that free to download then you pay monthly, but buying it in the shop and then paying monthly seems stupid. I dont wantr to be thinking 'Have i made the most out of my £7 or whatever subscription?' all the time.

The argument that adding a monthly fee to GW is bad because it would mean everyone would leave seems misguided to me.

What is more important than a games payment structure is the quality of the product. The only reason to play a game is if its good. A bad game thats free (as in no monthly fee) is still a bad game. GW is fortunate in that its a good game, and that is why people play it. If it sucked it would have probably disappeared ages ago.

The question is whether or not adding monthly fees would be a good idea. If it were the case that GW added a monthly fee and provided the exact same service that they would have provided with no monthly fee, then you have a deterrent to people to purchase the game if they feel that they can get more for their gaming dollar somewhere else. If adding a monthly fee means increasing the quality and depth of the game, better servers, whatever it might be, then its not necessarily going to drive people away and may even go as far as drawing people to the game.

This may have been true a few years back, but EA have actually made a lot of improvements. Activision is the new EA, go pick on them.

This.

12charsss

I would also leave GW if it had monthly fees. I starte playing it as my first MMO because it was free and had no fee, thats why I still play it. Anet dont have problems with making money, and I kind of find it immensely worrying that people like the OP would actually rather pay a monthly fee rather then play it for free O.o

How about paying me that monthly fee while you play GW instead, and pretend that its going to Anet? You will be more satisfied right?

If Anet want to charge, theres a simple solution already in place in Maple Story. Please dont be a noobtard and quote this line going 'OMG Maple Story SUX', I'm not talking about the game, but about how they make their money.

They offer a completely free game to play in which you can puchase extra storage slots, equips, pets, double XP and drop cards, haircuts, facial makeover, cool glowy name tags, in game auras......... And guess what? They make money No Wai!

Even if GW2 had a full retail price and this kind of model, no one would have to pay a fee to play the game, but whiners that dont like free games like the OP can pay them as much money as they like and get stuff for it.

/END of thread.

It wouldn't bother me if GW 2 had monthly fees.

But yeah Anet should implement something where paying customers get higher stats then implement PK so I can PK some of you people for annoying me.

Hahahahaha.

Oh and LOTRO has something where you can pay $200-300 and never have to pay monthly fee again.

Wait, WHAT?????

Rip off!

Yeah if you're poor. You pay for the product and that game is worth $250 to me.

Well unless someone has worked in the gaming business before, we as gamers wouldn't exactly know how Arenanet makes money off of a free to play business model. You would have to know such things as, how much tools, server maintenance cost and if they get paid on a salary basis or not.

I used to work in the computer business for 15 years. I worked for a company that was a subsidiary of another company. We would get paid a salary, most things that we needed was within the lines of the budget, anything extra we needed the department had to pay extra out of their pocket so to speak. My guess it could be similar to this perhaps.

So far the GW business model works. They sold over 4 mill boxes in 2 years, it's speculated that 3.5 mill play GW according to one of the latest articles. They still are a young company compared to other companies and have a huge opportunity to grow a much larger fan base. Seems the train in on the right track for greater success. Just waiting on GW2 now.

Is this just another BMP to be on sale rant?

Anet is just a business company, not a charity organization like Red Cross. Since many people were unable to get the promotion due to different reasons such as they do not own a credit card, they are granted another chance to purchase it. What's wrong with it?

I guess you may suggest how they were not being honest, since the wordings can be rather misleading. Well, welcome to the business world of the real world. Yes, it's all about the money, but hey, at least Anet listens to the community and tries to satify everyone.

If they are able to produce one expansion each month, I don't see what's wrong with that. After all, there is a choice that can be made to whether I want to purchase this or not. Perhaps you can say other players will find me to be incapable, since I do not own certain expansions, but like I care what they think. If they don't take me into their parties, I'll just play by myself or with friends, guildies, or even strangers I find on the street walking like they are drunk. Otherwise, it would just be more contents to be enjoyed.

Consequently, just a reminder, Guild Wars 2 is even not released yet, and with all these talks about how additional expansions can be expensive and what not, I really don't see the point in the use of this hyperbole.

QFT.
For all the WoWs and Everquests and Lord of the Ring's Onlines that are successes, there a thousand Auto Assaults that are utter failures. The P2P fee is a big gamble. You'll either make millions or stop selling the game after a few month (no one keeps playing a game with no players/community, nobody buys a game without a community, therefore the community shrinks rapidly).

When I started playing GW, I basically had 3 choices; WoW with a monthly fee, GW with no monthly fee, or give up online gaming. I chose GW, but just as easily could have chosen not to play. I have said in the past that I wasn't buying GW2, but always a possibilty I will a year or so after release, but if it has a fee, forget it. I don't buy anything else in life, then pay rent to use it. Why start that with a game?

Your point is moot, b/c we are discussing Guild Wars 2, which will be an MMORPG.

WoW is the hundred pound gorilla. You can compare any MMORPG (or any other game, for that matter), and say it sucks in sales compared to WoW.

Guild Wars is selling well enough to make Anet (and NCSoft!) successful, which is all that matters.


And here is the argument I hate: WoW is awesome and it has monthly fees, therefore GW2 would be better if it had monthly fees.

I don't play WoW because it has monthly fees, I play it because it's a fun game. If GW2 can make it (the Persistant areas, a Auction House, different races, no or high level cap, etc) better than WoW with no monthly, you'll can bet I'll switch.

For all WoW charges, I'm surprised by the amount of server crashes and downtime (twice already in the 3 weeks I've been playing). I feel if I'm paying, then it should run better than Guild Wars. IMO, that's just not the case.

WoW is just lucky that I've grown totally bored with Guild Wars at this point, and that they've managed to create a very fun and addictive game to fill my time. But the monthly fee? Meh, I could do without that.

Why do you guys worry how Anet makes their money?
Some of you don't even seem to calculate everything together when your doing this f2p vs p2p comparison.
And who cares about how Blizzard does it, it's not WoW that we want to play when we talk about GW2.

But first of all, Anet has already stated how they are going to do it, so no point in arguing about it at all.

Actually bhavv it's not. You pay $199 up front and you never have to pay a monthly fee ever again for the lifetime of the game world. Of course you'll still have to pay for new expansions, but, you'll still get WOWlike content for no added cost. Face it look how much you've spent on GW over 3 years so far?? If you paid premium price you've spent that much for the 3 chapters and expansion. LotRo is just asking for you to support their game upfront and you can decide that in the free trial period. Most people when they join one of these are in it for the long haul anyways (like all those WOW subscirbers), but, this way you spend $200 upfront and then no more for the lifetime of the world.

The original idea for GW was to offer full stand-alone expansions every 6 months or so, wasn't it?

So, assuming a $50 retail price for each game when it is first released, or $100 per year per account, that amounts to roughly the equivalent of $8 per month to play per account (less, of course, if you wait till prices drop or do not buy all of the expansions). It basically comes down to a more-modest monthly fee than, say, the $15/month you'd pay for WoW (over and above the cost of the base WoW game plus the Burning Crusade expansion pack).

--If you are a more dedicated player, the WoW/subscription model is a good and fair deal: Blizzard offers good support, good updates, and lots of content.

--If you are a more casual player, play less often and for less time, and thus progress much more slowly through a game/campaign, or if you want to have multiple accounts for various family members, etc., the GW free-to-play model makes much more financial sense.

If GW2 follows a "large base game + additional expansion packs" model, I think they will do very well.

Hopefully, there will be a level cap (or something) so that "GW2 Expansion 2: Attack of the Grawl" will be accessible to players who did not buy "GW2 Expansion 1: Kilroy's Big Adventure". This is where I think an MMO like WoW may start to see some serious subscription dropoff, since their expansion packs require players to slog through the previous game/expansion pack content in order to get to the new material. GW2 could skirt right around that problem with a level cap.

In fact, GW might be well advised to include the original GW2 base game with each subsequent expansion pack. I think with such a business model they would be successful.