Oh well.
Guess it's back to secondaries for a viable self-heal.
Shadow Refuge...back in the trash.
fireflyry
Pvp4lyfe
its called heart of shadow, feigned nutreality, deaths charge, deaths retreat and.... iono combine ur self healing with monk spells or sumthing
Neverending Silence
anet guys need to make up their minds....either keep the dang sins nerfed or let them be sheesh
fireflyry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvp4lyfe
its called heart of shadow, feigned nutreality, deaths charge, deaths retreat and.... iono combine ur self healing with monk spells or sumthing
Sorry man but your clearly either new to the class or bad.
Shadow Refuge was the only viable self-heal for Sin, with the possible exception of FN and it's conditions being down time, without going to a secondary outside the Sin line especially in PvP.
Imo those other skills just don't cut the mustard.
Just seems weird they buffed SR and allowed builds to use secondaries for motives other than a decent self-heal only to make it crap a few months later.
Shadow Refuge was the only viable self-heal for Sin, with the possible exception of FN and it's conditions being down time, without going to a secondary outside the Sin line especially in PvP.
Imo those other skills just don't cut the mustard.
Just seems weird they buffed SR and allowed builds to use secondaries for motives other than a decent self-heal only to make it crap a few months later.
Pvp4lyfe
i mean use those skills listed as emergancy healers. the refuge update is absolutly not going to make SR extinct, it can still be used easily
fireflyry
Ummm....no.
There are vastly superior secondary self-heals which, in the past and again now, has steered most Sins towards choosing a secondary class with a large focus on the self-heal on offer.
The buff to SR gave many freedom from such restraints allowing a pure sin build with secondary focus on other goals such as IAS, Interupts, etc, etc.
If you still think SR is viable when compared to other secondary self-heals...well.....
SR is back in the trash, deny all you want.
There are vastly superior secondary self-heals which, in the past and again now, has steered most Sins towards choosing a secondary class with a large focus on the self-heal on offer.
The buff to SR gave many freedom from such restraints allowing a pure sin build with secondary focus on other goals such as IAS, Interupts, etc, etc.
If you still think SR is viable when compared to other secondary self-heals...well.....
SR is back in the trash, deny all you want.
Stormlord Alex
Even before this 'stealth-nerf' (more likely, a mistake on A-Net's part), Shadow Refuge was worthless trash that never touched my bar.
ensoriki
lol they tried to make it good and made it worse
Sir Pandra Pierva
could some one explain to me how shadow refuge was good?
I usually dont ever need self heal and if I do its just the crappy feigned or /mo for restful breeze
I usually dont ever need self heal and if I do its just the crappy feigned or /mo for restful breeze
Bobby2
OK so let's have a look
- requires heavy Shadow Arts investment to offer significant(-ish) regen. As the Shadow line is bad overall, this is a big minus.
- has a 1sec casting time, which is a big risk to take in the place where you'd seemingly want to use it (in combat).
- 4 or 6 sec duration wasn't really an issue. We're generally talking 32HP here. In a way, the shorter duration is a BUFF because the (conditional!) health spike arrives sooner.
- Awesomely bad on defense. The condition for the health spike can't be met, while the regen is not enough to justify the casting time.
- Those who value self-heals tend to go /Mo for Restful Breeze, SR's main competition. Comparing them is just... unfair. That says enough.
- On a personal note: it takes up a skill slot that could have been used for something far more interesting, though this is personal preference above all else.
Shadow Refuge died a long time ago, and despite ANets recent attempts at reanimation, the trash can remains the only right place for this disaster.
- requires heavy Shadow Arts investment to offer significant(-ish) regen. As the Shadow line is bad overall, this is a big minus.
- has a 1sec casting time, which is a big risk to take in the place where you'd seemingly want to use it (in combat).
- 4 or 6 sec duration wasn't really an issue. We're generally talking 32HP here. In a way, the shorter duration is a BUFF because the (conditional!) health spike arrives sooner.
- Awesomely bad on defense. The condition for the health spike can't be met, while the regen is not enough to justify the casting time.
- Those who value self-heals tend to go /Mo for Restful Breeze, SR's main competition. Comparing them is just... unfair. That says enough.
- On a personal note: it takes up a skill slot that could have been used for something far more interesting, though this is personal preference above all else.
Shadow Refuge died a long time ago, and despite ANets recent attempts at reanimation, the trash can remains the only right place for this disaster.
moriz
the ultimate problem is shadow refuge is its design itself. typically, when the assassin needs to heal, he should be running away. keep attacking just to gain that heal spike at the end is just foolish most of the time. basically, the heal at the end usually never occurs.
the 6 second version therefore, it generally better. for shadow refuge to be good, it needs to have longer duration and less conditional heal.
the 6 second version therefore, it generally better. for shadow refuge to be good, it needs to have longer duration and less conditional heal.
Sir Pandra Pierva
exactly
12charthingie
12charthingie
Bobby2
It's an arguable point. 'Twas still crap. But if they reduced the casting time to 1/4, it would make a lot more sense.
/12charthingynotneeded
/12charthingynotneeded
Draginvry
Shadow Refuge was always crap because it is an in-battle heal with a one sec casting time. There never was a reason to use it when you can get the same healing from a secondary without the conditional requirement or possibility of being shattered.
For the love of God, six second duration and 1/4 casting time please. Then, maybe there will be a reason to use this skill. Or at least keep the one sec casting time, but make it a Skill rather than an Enchantment.
For the love of God, six second duration and 1/4 casting time please. Then, maybe there will be a reason to use this skill. Or at least keep the one sec casting time, but make it a Skill rather than an Enchantment.
RadaArashi
I personally don't mourn Shadow Refuge much because I only used it on one build in PvP, which is solved by adding Feigned Neutrality.
For everything else I relied on Earth Prayers or Restful Breeze
For everything else I relied on Earth Prayers or Restful Breeze
Sir Pandra Pierva
agreed with that one there
Am I A Good Sin
Well used in the right build it can work. 1 thing would be something like:
1. Enchant removal is there and ur build relies on enchants. U need a quick recharge and a heal wouldn't hurt.
2. Cover enchant for main enchant. If ur good enough u know how to time it right.
3. Works great with an AoD build that I use and won't tell.
4. Dervish could make good use of it.
I'm not sure what the nerf was so my reasons may not be viable so don't flame them. If someone would can the post the nerf?
1. Enchant removal is there and ur build relies on enchants. U need a quick recharge and a heal wouldn't hurt.
2. Cover enchant for main enchant. If ur good enough u know how to time it right.
3. Works great with an AoD build that I use and won't tell.
4. Dervish could make good use of it.
I'm not sure what the nerf was so my reasons may not be viable so don't flame them. If someone would can the post the nerf?
DDL
nerf was from 6 secs of regen to 4. Health gain on attack may have been reduced too, I'm not sure...though honestly, that health gain was fairly underutilised anyway.
The Meth
People were using shadow refuge before?
In comparison to warrior and most dervish self heals it still heals for more at a comparable attribute btw.
In comparison to warrior and most dervish self heals it still heals for more at a comparable attribute btw.
tehshadowninjar
I always thought Shadow Refuge was a pretty good skill. If it's 4 second duration, they should at least make it 1/4 or 2/4 cast time. -.- Because I used to use Shadow Refuge or my main heals during combat. Feigned Neutrality ends if you attack, same with Restful Breeze.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehshadowninjar
Because I used to use Shadow Refuge or my main heals during combat.
Why in heaven's name would you stand in melee range casting a 1s self-heal when you should either
- keep on killing -
or
- gtfo -
?
- keep on killing -
or
- gtfo -
?
DDL
....because "unless you heal you won't kill anything/won't escape before you die"?
That's basically when I use it, and it's pretty helpful usually.
I mean, it's no good you continuing to pound on people if you'll die in a few seconds anyway, and it's no good running if you're simply going to be caught and killed in a few seconds anyway either. If you can keep yourself in the fight for a little while longer, long enough to kill everything attacking you, you win. Right?
Admittedly, I mostly use it for solo stuff when there IS no monk to bail you out, and monsters will always, always chase you over anyone else..because there IS noone else...but for those purposes it's mighty handy.
That's basically when I use it, and it's pretty helpful usually.
I mean, it's no good you continuing to pound on people if you'll die in a few seconds anyway, and it's no good running if you're simply going to be caught and killed in a few seconds anyway either. If you can keep yourself in the fight for a little while longer, long enough to kill everything attacking you, you win. Right?
Admittedly, I mostly use it for solo stuff when there IS no monk to bail you out, and monsters will always, always chase you over anyone else..because there IS noone else...but for those purposes it's mighty handy.
ensoriki
SR can't really be used well when your in danger.
in the 6 seconds it took for you to activate that heal boost, thats 6 seconds they can whack on you and +6-8 regen is not going to save you.
To get the best use you have to take it before you take damage, and that doesn't even work well because its 1 second cast.
I wouldn't mind 4 sec duration if it was 1/4.
But the heal is still silly its a delayed heal, delayed heals should not be weak.
in the 6 seconds it took for you to activate that heal boost, thats 6 seconds they can whack on you and +6-8 regen is not going to save you.
To get the best use you have to take it before you take damage, and that doesn't even work well because its 1 second cast.
I wouldn't mind 4 sec duration if it was 1/4.
But the heal is still silly its a delayed heal, delayed heals should not be weak.
DDL
It's not so much a "use when already in trouble", as a "oop, this is going to get nasty" kinda heal.
If you're already into a +8 regen with a heal spike at the end by the time it DOES get nasty, you're laughing, and with an 8 sec recharge, you can usually afford to be overcautious, and spam it fairly often. One pip of regen is two HP per sec, right? So losing 2 seconds of +8 is...32 points of health, which is quite a lot when you consider how often you CAN spam SR.
If you're already into a +8 regen with a heal spike at the end by the time it DOES get nasty, you're laughing, and with an 8 sec recharge, you can usually afford to be overcautious, and spam it fairly often. One pip of regen is two HP per sec, right? So losing 2 seconds of +8 is...32 points of health, which is quite a lot when you consider how often you CAN spam SR.
Bobby2
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDL
Quote: Originally Posted by DDL and it's no good running if you're simply going to be caught and killed in a few seconds anyway either. Then don't get caught. If you do, SR won't save you.
Quote:
If you can keep yourself in the fight for a little while longer, long enough to kill everything attacking you, you win. Right?
Thank ANet for Monks, who actually have decent skills for keeping people on their feet.
Quote:
Running away safely (which dash is, admittedly, very handy for) is less useful if it means all your foes will be at max health again by the time you are too.
Quote:
Dash beats Every monster in HA without a IMS (although I think graspings can surpass) Use Dash and they'll all lose aggro, some take longer then others tho.|
Originally Posted by DDL
Admittedly, I mostly use it for solo stuff when there IS no monk to bail you out, and monsters will always, always chase you over anyone else..because there IS noone else...but for those purposes it's mighty handy.
Better substitutes:Dash - deaggro means no need for heal SSpeed - same goes Feigned - might actually see you through DDL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby2
Then don't get caught. If you do, SR won't save you.
Right, and the best way of not getting caught is to kill everyone who could catch you. In HM in particular, running away is often pretty foolhardy: they're faster than you and meaner than you. And in numbers, so siphon speed won't help you as much as you'd like.
Running away safely (which dash is, admittedly, very handy for) is less useful if it means all your foes will be at max health again by the time you are too. Ideally, you'd either be killing everyone before you're at risk, or running away to safety before you're at risk. In PvP, this is certainly the ideal to aim for. In PvE, however, there is frequently a middle ground, where you're killing people...while at risk. If you CAN kill them, but not without a heal, then SR is handy. It shifts the risk balance greatly in your favour, basically. Ultimately, if you're in a situation where running gets you back to square one, and staying without healing gets you dead...I'll go for the heal anyday. I'm not saying SR is the be-all and end-all of sin heals: far from it. But it certainly HAS uses, as far as I'm concerned. They may be esoteric, for sure, but they're still uses.
ensoriki
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDL
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Ultimately, if you're in a situation where running gets you back to square one, and staying without healing gets you dead...I'll go for the heal anyday.
Square one means your still alive and you can try again, and hopefully you've learned from your mistakes. Bad healing doesn't keep you alive generally. Thats why people don't use rank 1 healing prayers to keep people alive. Quote:
kinda rude, isnt that?
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