Just curious as to the intermediates and pros to what they think is effective. Some say that cookie cutter builds are 'boring' but suffice it to say, they're the best builds efficiently speaking. When people try something new, though more fun, less efficient, they get salmon-slapped up the wazoo...
Ideally, the W/X cookie cutter skills I've noticed for both modes are:
[axe example]
(PvP build cookie cutter template)
Disrupting Chop, Eviscerate {E}, Executioner's Strike, Bull's Strike, Flail, Rush, [utility from secondary, maybe], Res Skill
(PvE build cookie cutter template)
Triple Chop {E}, Cyclone Axe, Dismember, Whirlwind Attack, Flail, Watch (Save) Yourself!!, [utility], Res Skill
Now from the looks of those, 7 of the 8 skills are like 'must have or your warrior sucks' kind of setups... All these attacks mentioned [save the utility] are proven to be the best for an axe user in most if not all scenarios and I think the only thing people hump on now is the utility skill. They either force you to go with what they think is good even though 7/8th's of your skill bar is perfectly fine... (W/Mo's should take note, this is far better done using Smite above all else...)
I myself have been berated for using the above skills and my sole utility skill is something damn good, I think, like Barbs, Rigor Mortis, Well of Ruin {my fave, damn thing is devastating in a mob of high armor melee}.
So... Do you think cookie cutter is the only way to go? And that anything else is just useless banter?
I think it's perfectly fine to use some modification of a cookie cutter build. If a warrior brings at least 3-4 of the cookie cutter skills, they're in good standing vs. one who brings like, maybe 1 cookie cutter skill... You shouldn't smash a warrior for trying something new if his effectiveness drops only moderately...
Is cookie cutter really the 'only' viable option?
Yukito Kunisaki
Abedeus
What cookie cutters? There are only ursans now.
Yukito Kunisaki
Whoa, I must be out of it if W/x can now bring anything they want and not get smashed over the head for it...
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Jetdoc
Honestly, it depends on what you're facing. In PvP, I would say that the skillset you've identified above is probably the most efficient you can bring, so deviating would have to have a really, really good reason (i.e. based on your team build/strategy).
In PvE, I don't believe there is any "cookie cutter" build that cannot be improved upon based on the enemies that you're facing. I personally deviate my PvE build quite often, which often allows me to solo (without heroes or henchmen) areas that the build you list above wouldn't have a chance at doing.
In PvE, I don't believe there is any "cookie cutter" build that cannot be improved upon based on the enemies that you're facing. I personally deviate my PvE build quite often, which often allows me to solo (without heroes or henchmen) areas that the build you list above wouldn't have a chance at doing.
Yukito Kunisaki
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
Honestly, it depends on what you're facing. In PvP, I would say that the skillset you've identified above is probably the most efficient you can bring, so deviating would have to have a really, really good reason (i.e. based on your team build/strategy).
In PvE, I don't believe there is any "cookie cutter" build that cannot be improved upon based on the enemies that you're facing. I personally deviate my PvE build quite often, which often allows me to solo (without heroes or henchmen) areas that the build you list above wouldn't have a chance at doing. |
lol
The one's I've mentioned have been proven time and again by this community as the best (and supposedly ONLY) team builds specifically speaking... ^_^
Dr Strangelove
There are many viable templates, and many of them have flexible slots. Warriors tend to be a little less flexible than other classes, thanks to needing an IAS, a speed boost (in PvP), a decent combo of attack skills, and a rez. That really only leaves 1-2 flex slots.
From your posts, it seems you really like buffing physical attacks with the necro curses line. So, the question is, why not just run a support necro? Your warrior will pump out more damage, and your necro will pump out more curses. Everybody wins.
I generally don't care about bars in PvE as long as the user meets the bare minimum - IAS, max weapon mastery, some attack skills. If I'm setting up a team for PvP (disregarding AB) you damn well better believe I'm going to tell people to maximize their builds.
From your posts, it seems you really like buffing physical attacks with the necro curses line. So, the question is, why not just run a support necro? Your warrior will pump out more damage, and your necro will pump out more curses. Everybody wins.
I generally don't care about bars in PvE as long as the user meets the bare minimum - IAS, max weapon mastery, some attack skills. If I'm setting up a team for PvP (disregarding AB) you damn well better believe I'm going to tell people to maximize their builds.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
What cookie cutters? There are only ursans now.
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12charsgogo
Sab
If you're in a group that's planning on getting through an area as efficiently as possible, then you're expected to bring the strongest build for your class. However, if you're playing by yourself and you get off on playing "original" builds, then that's fine too.
Btw it should be Frenzy on the PvP warrior bar.
Btw it should be Frenzy on the PvP warrior bar.
Div
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Originally Posted by Sab
If you're in a group that's planning on getting through an area as efficiently as possible, then you're expected to bring the strongest build for your class.
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In coordinated friends groups though, you'll be generally using your best build, and there's a reason why some builds are cookie cutter and everyone uses them--because they're good.
It's like calling dribbling the basketball with the palm side (using fingers) of your hand cookie cutter. I like to think of it as smart, because trying to dribble with the back of your hand is just retarded.
Jetdoc
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Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
I believe those PvE solo builds you mentioned have a term called solo-cookie cutter...
lol The one's I've mentioned have been proven time and again by this community as the best (and supposedly ONLY) team builds specifically speaking... ^_^ |
Regarding team builds, the PvE skill template you've outlined is at its peak efficiency when surrounded by several enemies at once. The build is clearly subpar if you're dealing with enemy groups that do not tend to bunch up when aggroed, or if you're facing a primary, single opponent.
pygar
I dont like the term "cookie-cutter"- usually the builds that get labeled this way are good builds comprised of good skills that get used over and over again because of the age old logic of "if it ain't broke dont fix it". Having said that, you dont want to be entirely predictable....but the "cookie cutter" skills and builds are what they are because of their dependability, and this many years into GW's existence people have tried pretty much every combo imaginable.
Crom The Pale
A good player can make an inferior build very effective as long as they know how to use it.
A bad player can make an efficient build fail just as easily.
Being creative is fine just as long as you know who you are playing with and they know what to expect from you and your build. If they have to carry you and are not expecting to you deserve all the flames you recieve.
A bad player can make an efficient build fail just as easily.
Being creative is fine just as long as you know who you are playing with and they know what to expect from you and your build. If they have to carry you and are not expecting to you deserve all the flames you recieve.
Whiskeyjack
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A good player can make an inferior build very effective as long as they know how to use it. A bad player can make an efficient build fail just as easily. |
Marty Silverblade
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Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack
Nice soundbite, however a good player would not be running an inferior build in the first place.
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Remember that this is just a game, if you don't feel like running the best available thing, then don't. Imo as long as everyone in your team is ok with you not being 100% efficient, then feel free to run whatever you like.
RotteN
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Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
(PvP build cookie cutter template)
Disrupting Chop, Eviscerate {E}, Executioner's Strike, Bull's Strike, Flail, Rush, [utility from secondary, maybe], Res Skill |
Executioner's strike can easely be swapped out for body blow if you run high strength. @ 13 str it's 2 dmg less than exec, versus 1 adrenalin less
rush can be replaced by enraging
and so forth ...
blue.rellik
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Originally Posted by RotteN
Flail is fail as axe warrior in PvP, learn to use frenzy
Executioner's strike can easely be swapped out for body blow if you run high strength. @ 13 str it's 2 dmg less than exec, versus 1 adrenalin less rush can be replaced by enraging and so forth ... |
Yukito Kunisaki
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
There are many viable templates, and many of them have flexible slots. Warriors tend to be a little less flexible than other classes, thanks to needing an IAS, a speed boost (in PvP), a decent combo of attack skills, and a rez. That really only leaves 1-2 flex slots.
From your posts, it seems you really like buffing physical attacks with the necro curses line. So, the question is, why not just run a support necro? Your warrior will pump out more damage, and your necro will pump out more curses. Everybody wins. I generally don't care about bars in PvE as long as the user meets the bare minimum - IAS, max weapon mastery, some attack skills. If I'm setting up a team for PvP (disregarding AB) you damn well better believe I'm going to tell people to maximize their builds. |
I don't like microing my heroes. The fact that their AI is rather sub-par doesn't help either. If I wanted to micro-manage, I'd play Warcraft 3 or some other RTS, Heroes are cool, but being forced to play them isn't in my 'be flexible' motto.
Also, I use the maximum flexibility a warrior build has. [one slot, oh joy...] And my builds are never 'gimped' by it since strength, the ONLY prime stat that actually affects damage, is useless in a spike build that only uses skills once in a while. DS loves strength since it's every damn hit, but strength really can only benefit skill spammers I think...
YES I know you spam Cyclone and Triple Chop but none of my skills benefit directly by strength stat anyway so... erm... yeah... That and i like my tactics shield a lot more
mrmango
Heroes with damage buffs and stuff aren't that bad if you call them, no?
It's not a matter of microing, if you ask me. (Btw, henchmen monks are at least as good as 90% of monk heroes, if you're H/Hing).
You could even give your MM curse skills.
It's not a matter of microing, if you ask me. (Btw, henchmen monks are at least as good as 90% of monk heroes, if you're H/Hing).
You could even give your MM curse skills.
You can't see me
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Originally Posted by mrmango
You could even give your MM curse skills.
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Flem
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
A good player can make an inferior build very effective as long as they know how to use it.
A bad player can make an efficient build fail just as easily. Being creative is fine just as long as you know who you are playing with and they know what to expect from you and your build. If they have to carry you and are not expecting to you deserve all the flames you recieve. |
Savio
A good player with a good build beats the crap out of a good player with a bad build.
Jetdoc
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Originally Posted by Savio
A good player with a good build beats the crap out of a good player with a bad build.
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Savio
That's not what the OP and others are talking about; they want to justify the use of inferior skill choices. Standard warrior templates have room for customization.
Flem
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Originally Posted by Savio
That's not what the OP and others are talking about; they want to justify the use of inferior skill choices. Standard warrior templates have room for customization.
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The answer is yes.
odly
First of all : you don't allways have to use the ultimate best possible build to beat the game.
What I'd suggest is to get to know the established builds for your proffession. Play them and find out what makes them good.
You'll want to experiment on the side with other builds, for fun and you'll discover others that work fine too. Some will be just as good or might even be better, some will be a lot worse. By knowing the established builds you should be able to evaluate the power of your own builds and you'll at least know if you're pulling your weight or not.
What I'd suggest is to get to know the established builds for your proffession. Play them and find out what makes them good.
You'll want to experiment on the side with other builds, for fun and you'll discover others that work fine too. Some will be just as good or might even be better, some will be a lot worse. By knowing the established builds you should be able to evaluate the power of your own builds and you'll at least know if you're pulling your weight or not.
Jetdoc
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Originally Posted by Savio
That's not what the OP and others are talking about; they want to justify the use of inferior skill choices. Standard warrior templates have room for customization.
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For example, using the OP's PvE "cookie cutter" build...
(PvE build cookie cutter template)
Triple Chop {E}, Cyclone Axe, Dismember, Whirlwind Attack, Flail, Watch (Save) Yourself!!, [utility], Res Skill
If you have to replace Triple Chop, Cyclone Axe, Dismember and Whirlwind Attack because you aren't going to be facing mobs where you can benefit from these AoE attacks, is that "customization" or is that "the cookie-cutter build isn't good" in that situation?
Tyla
Besides, Jetdoc.
Triple Chop is bad unless you're hitting more than 2 enemies, if not its just a 10 recharge power attack.
Triple Chop is bad unless you're hitting more than 2 enemies, if not its just a 10 recharge power attack.
Winterclaw
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Originally Posted by Savio
A good player with a good build beats the crap out of a good player with a bad build.
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I think the general rule of them should be, if you are PUGing you need to be cookie cutter if you are lower rank (PvP) or if people aren't familiar with you. However if you are in PvE, have a better rank, or if people are familiar with you, you start gaining more leeway.
iridescentfyre
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Originally Posted by Winterclaw
Unfortunately, unless you are famous, PUGs don't know how good you are.
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Terraban
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Originally Posted by iridescentfyre
And yet, even if you are a famously amazing player, running a bad build is still an unnecessary handicap. Sure, maybe you can make it 'work,' but why bother if you can just run a good build and be untouchable?
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You can't see me
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Originally Posted by Terraban
Because maybe you want to play differently for once?
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So I'm supposed to let someone in my group with the excuse that they want to "try something different"?
killress
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Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
Just curious as to the intermediates and pros to what they think is effective. Some say that cookie cutter builds are 'boring' but suffice it to say, they're the best builds efficiently speaking. When people try something new, though more fun, less efficient, they get salmon-slapped up the wazoo...
Ideally, the W/X cookie cutter skills I've noticed for both modes are: [axe example] (PvP build cookie cutter template) Disrupting Chop, Eviscerate {E}, Executioner's Strike, Bull's Strike, Flail, Rush, [utility from secondary, maybe], Res Skill (PvE build cookie cutter template) Triple Chop {E}, Cyclone Axe, Dismember, Whirlwind Attack, Flail, Watch (Save) Yourself!!, [utility], Res Skill Now from the looks of those, 7 of the 8 skills are like 'must have or your warrior sucks' kind of setups... All these attacks mentioned [save the utility] are proven to be the best for an axe user in most if not all scenarios and I think the only thing people hump on now is the utility skill. They either force you to go with what they think is good even though 7/8th's of your skill bar is perfectly fine... (W/Mo's should take note, this is far better done using Smite above all else...) I myself have been berated for using the above skills and my sole utility skill is something damn good, I think, like Barbs, Rigor Mortis, Well of Ruin {my fave, damn thing is devastating in a mob of high armor melee}. So... Do you think cookie cutter is the only way to go? And that anything else is just useless banter? I think it's perfectly fine to use some modification of a cookie cutter build. If a warrior brings at least 3-4 of the cookie cutter skills, they're in good standing vs. one who brings like, maybe 1 cookie cutter skill... You shouldn't smash a warrior for trying something new if his effectiveness drops only moderately... |
-Killress
Terraban
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Originally Posted by You can't see me
So I'm supposed to let someone in my group with the excuse that they want to "try something different"?
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Dr Strangelove
You can play crap builds all day long and nobody will care, but don't get the illusion that your build is the best thing since sliced Rurik.
Bowstring Badass
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
Or the one that's most idiot-proof. Aka ursan
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
In coordinated friends groups though, you'll be generally using your best build, and there's a reason why some builds are cookie cutter and everyone uses them--because they're good.
It's like calling dribbling the basketball with the palm side (using fingers) of your hand cookie cutter. I like to think of it as smart, because trying to dribble with the back of your hand is just retarded. |
Cookie cutter for what axe?
Isn't shock axe still used to this day?
Flem
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
You can play crap builds all day long and nobody will care, but don't get the illusion that your build is the best thing since sliced Rurik.
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Tyla
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Originally Posted by Flem
So, if you seen a new build that you've never seen before...you would refuse to group with them?
Wow, that's arrogant. |
Yichi
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Originally Posted by Flem
So, who is the build judge you speak of?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Flem
So, if you seen a new build that you've never seen before...you would refuse to group with them?
Wow, that's arrogant. |
WARRIOR
[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill] [skill]Shield Stance[/skill] [skill]Gladiator's Defense[/skill] [skill]Healing Signet[/skill] [skill]Dolyak Signet[/skill] [skill]Shield Bash[/skill] [skill]Deadly Riposte[/skill] [skill]mend ailment[/skill]
again never ran the buidl for it's intended purpose so not commenting on the build, just using one as a whole thats "Outside" what the build was created for.
moriz
the "standard template" for both axe and sword warriors allow for some pretty ridiculous amount of customization.
sword:
sever, gash, final, bull's strike, frenzy, enraging charge
axe:
dismember, executioner's, bull's strike, frenzy, rush
both can be run quite effectively without elites. you can also substitute the straight-up attack skills on both with others (for example, eviscerate and dragon slash) as well as fill out the remaining skill slots.
for shits and giggles, i tried something like this a few days ago:
sever, gash, final, bull's strike, frenzy, enraging charge, mending, healing hands {e}
did it work? yep. simply because the basic sword template is very strong already. as long as i keep the template intact, i can quite literally run anything in the last two slots and i'll do just fine.
my point is, what's really "cookie cutter" should be the basic template of each build.
sword:
sever, gash, final, bull's strike, frenzy, enraging charge
axe:
dismember, executioner's, bull's strike, frenzy, rush
both can be run quite effectively without elites. you can also substitute the straight-up attack skills on both with others (for example, eviscerate and dragon slash) as well as fill out the remaining skill slots.
for shits and giggles, i tried something like this a few days ago:
sever, gash, final, bull's strike, frenzy, enraging charge, mending, healing hands {e}
did it work? yep. simply because the basic sword template is very strong already. as long as i keep the template intact, i can quite literally run anything in the last two slots and i'll do just fine.
my point is, what's really "cookie cutter" should be the basic template of each build.
Keekles
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Originally Posted by moriz
the "standard template" for both axe and sword warriors allow for some pretty ridiculous amount of customization.
... my point is, what's really "cookie cutter" should be the basic template of each build. |