Why we must have a balanced PVE
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemoonxia
1. UB is part of the un-balanced PVE problem. I don't have to hide this point.
PvE is NOT designed to be balanced in the first place so all of you who are seeking to "balance" PvE should just play the balanced version of this game called, PvP.
To balance means both sides must have the SAME advantages (i.e. being FAIR on both sides, like BALANCING a scale), if you can already prepare your skills ahead of time to counter the monster's but the monsters cant do the same, that is already NOT balanced! To understand the definition of "balanced", look at PvP, not PvE.
To balance means both sides must have the SAME advantages (i.e. being FAIR on both sides, like BALANCING a scale), if you can already prepare your skills ahead of time to counter the monster's but the monsters cant do the same, that is already NOT balanced! To understand the definition of "balanced", look at PvP, not PvE.
Gattsu05
Quote:
Originally Posted by Songbringer
What? I read this post and I don't understand your post. You are mad people are running ursan. Running ursan doesn't affect you. You don't like ursan: don't run it. Some people find ursan fun. It is PvE on easy mode. Some people need/want that.
Your idea 2 is just epic fail. That isn't even an idea. That is a I hate ursan lets rage on everyone using it.
Going through the game and doing all the harder areas(elite areas) with ursan or any other pve only skills doesn't necessarily mean they are going to get all the rare skins and great titles and everything else.
All the high end areas are easily done in hard mode with a competent team not running ursan. If you hate them that much. Get a guild team/friends team together and go beat them.
You're kinda missing the point. I see the majority of people dislike Ursan because people actually running decent, well thought up builds, are unable to find pugs in Elite areas any more because teams in these Elite areas require you to be R10 Ursan. This, in my eyes and several others apparently, completely defeats the purpose of an "Online Community" game where user's with decent builds are rejected by groups for not having or wanting to run an Ursan tank. Many of these players created their char to play that character, not to have him reduced to a 3 skill button masher that anyone can use.
Yes Ursan is good but over-used. I think it'd be fine to keep around if players were willing to work together regardless of the skill but as that's not the case I think it should be nerfed. Players mindsets aren't just gonna change overnight, you'll always have those that won't except a member into their party because they're not rank whatever or not wearing "L33T" armor.
Nerf Ursan mindset? I wish, but that's not possible.
What is possible however is nerfing the skill itself. Doing so will force players to relay on they're teammates more and all together work towards promoting the community aspect back into a community based RPG.
Nerf Ursan /signed
Your idea 2 is just epic fail. That isn't even an idea. That is a I hate ursan lets rage on everyone using it.
Going through the game and doing all the harder areas(elite areas) with ursan or any other pve only skills doesn't necessarily mean they are going to get all the rare skins and great titles and everything else.
All the high end areas are easily done in hard mode with a competent team not running ursan. If you hate them that much. Get a guild team/friends team together and go beat them.
You're kinda missing the point. I see the majority of people dislike Ursan because people actually running decent, well thought up builds, are unable to find pugs in Elite areas any more because teams in these Elite areas require you to be R10 Ursan. This, in my eyes and several others apparently, completely defeats the purpose of an "Online Community" game where user's with decent builds are rejected by groups for not having or wanting to run an Ursan tank. Many of these players created their char to play that character, not to have him reduced to a 3 skill button masher that anyone can use.
Yes Ursan is good but over-used. I think it'd be fine to keep around if players were willing to work together regardless of the skill but as that's not the case I think it should be nerfed. Players mindsets aren't just gonna change overnight, you'll always have those that won't except a member into their party because they're not rank whatever or not wearing "L33T" armor.
Nerf Ursan mindset? I wish, but that's not possible.
What is possible however is nerfing the skill itself. Doing so will force players to relay on they're teammates more and all together work towards promoting the community aspect back into a community based RPG.
Nerf Ursan /signed
DarkSpirit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gattsu05
You're kinda missing the point. I see the majority of people dislike Ursan because people actually running decent, well thought up builds, are unable to find pugs in Elite areas any more because teams in these Elite areas require you to be R10 Ursan. This, in my eyes and several others apparently, completely defeats the purpose of an "Online Community" game where user's with decent builds are rejected by groups for not having or wanting to run an Ursan tank. Many of these players created their char to play that character, not to have him reduced to a 3 skill button masher that anyone can use.
Yes Ursan is good but over-used. I think it'd be fine to keep around if players were willing to work together regardless of the skill but as that's not the case I think it should be nerfed. Players mindsets aren't just gonna change overnight, you'll always have those that won't except a member into their party because they're not rank whatever or not wearing "L33T" armor.
Nerf Ursan mindset? I wish, but that's not possible.
What is possible however is nerfing the skill itself. Doing so will force players to relay on they're teammates more and all together work towards promoting the community aspect back into a community based RPG.
Nerf Ursan /signed If I think that way, as a mesmer and assassin player, I would want to nerf all of you, other professions, all the time for the last 2+ years!
Asking to nerf a particular skill because PUGs have the wrong mindset is just wrong in itself, especially if you take UB alone with H/H the skill is not that overpowered in HM. Keeping in mind also that it takes up both the elite and pve-only skill slot.
I suggest you either join them and play Ursan or play with like-minded friends/guildies along with heroes.
But I admit that Ursanway is overpowered because a team can bring multiple UB that synergize with one another. They should nerf the team Ursanway by maybe limiting the PvE skills a team can bring to just the leader. That way, Ursanway, as a team build would die and that would also be fair with the H/H teams.
Yes Ursan is good but over-used. I think it'd be fine to keep around if players were willing to work together regardless of the skill but as that's not the case I think it should be nerfed. Players mindsets aren't just gonna change overnight, you'll always have those that won't except a member into their party because they're not rank whatever or not wearing "L33T" armor.
Nerf Ursan mindset? I wish, but that's not possible.
What is possible however is nerfing the skill itself. Doing so will force players to relay on they're teammates more and all together work towards promoting the community aspect back into a community based RPG.
Nerf Ursan /signed If I think that way, as a mesmer and assassin player, I would want to nerf all of you, other professions, all the time for the last 2+ years!
Asking to nerf a particular skill because PUGs have the wrong mindset is just wrong in itself, especially if you take UB alone with H/H the skill is not that overpowered in HM. Keeping in mind also that it takes up both the elite and pve-only skill slot.
I suggest you either join them and play Ursan or play with like-minded friends/guildies along with heroes.
But I admit that Ursanway is overpowered because a team can bring multiple UB that synergize with one another. They should nerf the team Ursanway by maybe limiting the PvE skills a team can bring to just the leader. That way, Ursanway, as a team build would die and that would also be fair with the H/H teams.
skanvak
I think that when people speak of balance pve, they will agree that Me need a buffing (though they have quite strong skill already like signet of illusion). The problem you point with the Me is wether the balancing should be made on the basis of standard player or of elite player.
the_jos
Quote:
Originally Posted by skanvak
Sure, it looks awesome when you use it on EotN PvE spells when you have a low reputation rank. But the difference at higher ranks is not that much.
The other use is when using spells from the two other lines, Domination and Inspiration. It works but is not the most efficient.
The moment you need to rely on spells outside the mesmer profession something is wrong with either the profession or the way PvE works.
Quote: The problem you point with the Me is wether the balancing should be made on the basis of standard player or of elite player. From my point of view, the mesmer should be balanced on the PvP playing field and not the PvE playing field.
The moment you start looking at balance from PvE perspective things will go wrong because the mechanics differ.
The mechanics of PvE give the mesmer a disadvantage that can only be solved by changing the core of the mesmer (for example making the mesmer a nuker) or changing the AI and mobs.
At the moment the mesmer profession can be fit in teams for all the areas without giving a huge disadvantage. Even in Hard Mode.
Sure, might need some PvE skills to be most effective but that's part of the PvE mechanics problem.
Quote:
Yeah, now people don't have to worry about creating new builds and being creative. Just slam 5x UB on bar with a Random Monk Bar x3 and you can do ANYTHING. Farm, vanq, missions, guardian, titles, dungeons, elite areas... Do I have to remind you that Ursan has absolutely no weaknesses? Any other nerfed skill had at least 5 counters if not more.|
Originally Posted by Gattsu05
You're kinda missing the point. I see the majority of people dislike Ursan because people actually running decent, well thought up builds, are unable to find pugs in Elite areas any more because teams in these Elite areas require you to be R10 Ursan.
You mean those outposts that were abandoned before the UB craze started?
Sure there was always activity for UW and FoW (lots of farmers) but Deep, Urgoz's and even DoA were very quiet. There is no difference in not being able to team (PUG) because of lack of skills/rank or lack of players. And decent, well thought builds? Deep Steel Wall is decent and well thought? Perhaps from a PUG perspective but not from a general perspective. It's a build that gets things done when playing with inexperienced people. The true decent and well thought builds are only played in guild/alliance by a select number of players.
KennyC
This game uses a hierarchy system, in both gameplay and the way it rewards players.
You start off in an easy area and it gets progressively harder, as the game gets harder the rewards get better. It's the way most games work, and the way this game has worked up until recently. Players like to show off their accomplishments (titles) and dont like it when people can fast track in a few months what it took them triple the time or longer to do it in because of a Ridiculous skill. With the massive increase in the amount of Ursans people are using this ridiculous skill to beat the hardest of areas with ease, outposts are flooded with people using nothing else. As far as this game is concerned its a serious problem. You need balance in PVE as much as you do in PVP, the heirachy system of work>reward is broken and needs to be fixed. Fix it please!
High Moral
have Anet ever said anything about the UB? Just for the record, I am very much for a removal of the skill, not because its overpowered because imho that is beside the actual point.
GW is designed for to puzzle with builds, to be able to achieve different goals, it seems now however that the original idea behind the game is lost. Anyway, back to the question.. Have ANET said anything about UB? How come they made UB so good, when the wolf and raven sux?
Theosephus
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyC
This game uses a hierarchy system, in both gameplay and the way it rewards players.
asdfasdafgafasgdf You need balance in PVE as much as you do in PVP, the heirachy system of work>reward is broken and needs to be fixed. Fix it please! Quoted for Truth. Forget arguments about whether balance is necessary or even relevant to PvE.. The key issue is the hierarchical system of work and reward. Overpowered skills can be used to reap loot at higher rates and this affects the equipment economy even if sinks help control the gold economy. The longer an overpowered PvE skill exists, the more effect it accumulates and the more damage will be done when it is taken away or nerfed. I'd hate to actually get to the point where this is proved correct. If you have a problem with the word BALANCE in PvE.. how about Repair.. or Fix.. or Ensure It Doesn't Cause A Whole Lot Of Long Term Game-Killing At The Cost Of Short Term Loot-Reaping. Terminology is unimportant in the face of something so straightforward.
Jam Jar
@OP
You do have some point, but maybe they're trying to make it equal, so it will be even harder for people to get those elite armors and stuff. Personally I thought they nerfed more than they buffed. Besides if everything was equal, than one fight can last forever. So playing skill still plays a huge role even when all the skills are equal. odly
How many physical damadealers finished DoA with their normal builds before Anet adjusted (made easier) DoA ?
Yeah right ... "Repressive Energy" aka "wand some more" if you're a ranger, dervish, assassin, ... Warrior's and paragon's still had some adrenalin skills, the others were made utterly useless. Remember City was considered the easiest area, so that is where most people started out. And no Obsidian tanking is not playing normally for martial arts characters. It's that mistake more than anything else that makes Ursan so popular for DoA. It's because Anet made it so at least half the population of players never got to finish DoA for a long time after it was introduced. I know many people who tried it, found out they could possibly do it normally and gave the area a wide berth. Then came Ursan and people found an easy way into that area, that everyone could participate in. If DoA had been open to all professions from the start, more people would have finished it, with more different builds and Ursan would not be so popular now. skanvak
I do agree with odly on the analysis about DoA. I simply refuse to play the obsidian Tank. I wanted to fight with my warrior.
That only prove that the way difficulty is treated and, I keep thinking it, the way team system is design, is basically broken. Instead of encouraging grouping it encourage discrimination. That why I think that Odly point is in faor of a balanced pvp. One that make Monk less useful and Mesmer more. But again on which basis do we based the balancing : the way the best play or the way the poorest play? The reduction of duration of most tactic skill made it tiresome to use for most casual player (it turn the game in an arcade where speed is important more than thinking). Ornlu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsumi
We're never past the QQ about UB...
BUT ANYWAY, PvE skills were introduced to give the PvE population skills that didn't need to be balanced to allow them to steamroll PvE. They're PvE only so they wouldn't affect PvP. That's basically the entire reason they're there. sum1 give this person a medal
Akolo
As this turned into an ursan thread i will give you my opinions.
The PvE guildwars is almost (yes its sad) turned into a world full of Ursans. When people started to run ursan in doa , well i didn't mind much, it was fun for a while etc and didnt have a big effect except armbrace drop. Then people started to do Dungeons with ursan. Well for me that still didnt matter too much though i still ran the "normal" way. Then it started badly, Vanquishing, missions, well yea EVERYTHING was made the ursanway. I thought that it was getting overhand. Why they should nerf it? Because i dont want whole gw to be based around one PvE-skill and no skill from the player's side. They could at least balance it a little bit so that not the hardest area are a walk in the park and so that other ways can be (almost  ) as good.No, i dont like ursan :P And YES i do know why its kept there, it do enable some of the players out there to have fun and complete the harder areas, but its just way out of hands atm :/.
MasterSasori
Maybe anet shouldn't do titles for PvE in GW2 and end this overpowered PvE skill QQ situation once and for all.
If people want to play UB, then let them. They're only ruining the game for themselves by not utilizing the hundreds of other fun skills and builds that they could run instead. PvE is about exploring and having fun, it shouldn't be about title grind and omg-i-can-beat-any-leet-dungeon-in-hm-with-UB nonsense. Also if you're worried that your high-cost items are becoming worthless due to Ursan, its time you moved on to something else. Maybe try PvP where UB doesn't steam roll everything. Angelina Collins
I hear that sad violin playing again!! UB this, UB that, people stop your bitching already. PvE only skills were by design to be umber overpowered to make up for PvP skill balance, which IMO is what caused Anet to design GW2, and will lead to GW2 failure, if they use skill balance there too.
Let's get one thing straight, it is not skill balance, no skills were really overpowered until anet started to change skills around, which would lead to skills that were fine before to now be overpowered, because the skills the countered that skill got nerfed. Look at Watch yourself, for almost three years, that skill was fine, but now it was nerfed, why? Paragon energy, the problem with paragon energy is that they should have only 2 pips of energy regen, not 4. PvE has been screwed with enough, and screw the economy, gold sellers have already destroyed it, so let players have their fun!!!
mikeydj99
we have to face the fact. no more complaining. Pve and Pvp will NEVER be balanced. There is no way to balance any aspect of this game because people will always find a new way to do things. Solo Uw. Nerfed Aoe. New Solo Uw. Now Anet doesnt care about Uw. Its an approach they take on everything. You cant balance this game. Everyone will always have ways around it. And for spikes man....any team build that has 8 people using the same skill will always work. Ursan is NOT overpowered.....6 ursans together is. Its pointless this game cannot be balanced. Spikes cant be taken away. And it will always be lobsided. Face the fact and stop complaining. There will always be a way to complete something without a full group. Nerfing does nothing except make people find ways around it. Anet fails. Gw fails. (not really i love it). And nerfs are nothing. They never bother me because im not an idiot. Wait 2 weeks and there will be nwe builds 10 times better than the ones before the nerf. GG anet.
skanvak
I agree with this one (though UB is still just a bit too much over powered).
I think that the MMO would be better if the skill were chosen according to the world background and not play balanced. But that will mean too that it will have to be likely that owning all the skill should be near impossible. This way you cannot tell someone that he is not running the require template, because it will be likely that even the best player would not be able. That will mean that people will not be equal game wise. I would prefer a game with no nerf, unbalanced skill BUT no people able to have all of them to a fully balanced game. But if the game as to be balanced, them PVE too has to be balanced.
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Angelina Collins
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Quote:
Quote:
It's is an online game!|
Originally Posted by Angelina Collins
PvE has been screwed with enough, and screw the economy, gold sellers have already destroyed it, so let players have their fun!!!
So... Lets legalize drugs and prostitution! No laws! Why try to fix society, anarchy rules!
Brian the Gladiator
Doesn't Izzy do all the skill balancing... and doesn't Izzy do Pvp primarily and not worry too much about pve... Should he worry about PvE???
I don't think he should. PvP has gotten worse and worse ever since the game came out because of I main problem... the introduction of new skills and professions which were not balanced to the game already set up. This is a drawn out way of saying NIGHTFALL POWERCREEP. IMHO, Izzy should be worrying about balancing the already unbalanced PvP before even touching PvE in a desperate attempt to retain any PvPers that haven't left already... Thoughts??? Barbie
I haven't read the whole thing, but here's what I have to say:
Guild Wars is not a lifestyle, nor a socioeconomic system... It is a game! It's meant to have fun, and everyone has its own definition of fun. You can't force other people into playing the game the way you want. If your idea of fun is hardcore gaming, trying to max every possible titles and using only "pro-skills" and not casual players friendly skills like Ursan Blessing, then fine. But don't tell me how to enjoy the game. I think I can figure it out myself, thanks.
MasterSasori
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
Do I have to remind you that Ursan has absolutely no weaknesses?
Opportunity cost. If you play UB, you're not enjoying any of the other millions of other builds you could play. You'll end up either title-grinding or searching for overpriced items. Of course, it could be that mentality that resort you to go for UB in the first place.
bluemoonxia
You are missing the point.
Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Balanced PVE does not mean to have balance between players and monsters, but a balance between all professions and their skills. Quote: To balance means both sides must have the SAME advantages (i.e. being FAIR on both sides, like BALANCING a scale), if you can already prepare your skills ahead of time to counter the monster's but the monsters cant do the same, that is already NOT balanced! To understand the definition of "balanced", look at PvP, not PvE. |
You play with others in GW.
You trade with others in GW.
You talk with others in GW.
You showoff with others in GW.
And most importantly: You game in the SAME system with others.
So don't tell me it is your solo game that you get whatever you want and it has nothing to do with others. If you feel happy by having god mod turned on, that doesn't means we should have it in this game and have it ruin our game!!
Quote:
I haven't read the whole thing, but here's what I have to say:
Guild Wars is not a lifestyle, nor a socioeconomic system... It is a game! It's meant to have fun, and everyone has its own definition of fun. You can't force other people into playing the game the way you want. If your idea of fun is hardcore gaming, trying to max every possible titles and using only "pro-skills" and not casual players friendly skills like Ursan Blessing, then fine. But don't tell me how to enjoy the game. I think I can figure it out myself, thanks.
Guild Wars is not a lifestyle, nor a socioeconomic system... It is a game! It's meant to have fun, and everyone has its own definition of fun. You can't force other people into playing the game the way you want. If your idea of fun is hardcore gaming, trying to max every possible titles and using only "pro-skills" and not casual players friendly skills like Ursan Blessing, then fine. But don't tell me how to enjoy the game. I think I can figure it out myself, thanks.
Gaia_Hunter
I just find fun that having only 2 professions in game is ok as PUG's go, but letting heroes use PvE skills or let players have 7 heroes (don't care about this part, I always play with at least another person) is overpowered.
I want my Morgahn and Hayda to use Save Yourselves, and for those Zheds and Olias give me Greater Dwarf Weapon!!! sniff sniff
I want my Morgahn and Hayda to use Save Yourselves, and for those Zheds and Olias give me Greater Dwarf Weapon!!! sniff sniff
Bront
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemoonxia
Balanced PVE does not mean to have balance between players and monsters, but a balance between all professions and their skills.
Here's the problem with this:
PvE balance of professions <> PvP balance of professions.
This is why:
-The Warrior Tactics line got nerfed (because it was overpowered in PvP when used by Paragons)
-Mesmers have a slight disadvantage in PvE (As they are quite powerful in PvP)
-PvE skills are more powerful than PvAny skills.
PvE skills are to reward PvE players for playing the game, and exploring a particular aspect of it (Organization Rank/Race Rep). In some cases, it can feel like a grind (GWEN), while other places it fits in fairly well and can be gotten fairly high with normal play (Sunspear), but the skills are intentionaly more powerful than normal PvAny skills, and would wreck havok in the balance that is PvP.
Guild Wars was designed first as a PvP game. Even if the PvE aspect is more popular, it will always aim at PvP balance first.
Now I haven't had a chance to fool with UB myself, but I can see that it is quite powerful. But the fact that people can use it now to do things that they might not have been able to do before is the nature of the beast. The new classes in Factions and Nightfall made things in prophecies that some people couldn't do before easier, simply by virtue of adding new ways of doing things. As you expand in what can be done in game and how it can be done, players will find new ways to use them to their advantage.
Ultimately, it's a game, and it's in the best interest of the maker to make the game accessable to the masses. This sometimes means tweaks to the experience that make things that were once hard easier. UB is not the first thing to happen that does it (There have been numerous mission tweeks over the years, Heroes, new classes and skills, etc), it just happens to currently be the most talked about one. Ultimately, the sense of accomplishment is that you did X. It shouldn't matter if anyone else did it, who did it faster, or first, or whatnot (unless it's specifically built into the mission/game, like Challenge Missions).
PvE balance of professions <> PvP balance of professions.
This is why:
-The Warrior Tactics line got nerfed (because it was overpowered in PvP when used by Paragons)
-Mesmers have a slight disadvantage in PvE (As they are quite powerful in PvP)
-PvE skills are more powerful than PvAny skills.
PvE skills are to reward PvE players for playing the game, and exploring a particular aspect of it (Organization Rank/Race Rep). In some cases, it can feel like a grind (GWEN), while other places it fits in fairly well and can be gotten fairly high with normal play (Sunspear), but the skills are intentionaly more powerful than normal PvAny skills, and would wreck havok in the balance that is PvP.
Guild Wars was designed first as a PvP game. Even if the PvE aspect is more popular, it will always aim at PvP balance first.
Now I haven't had a chance to fool with UB myself, but I can see that it is quite powerful. But the fact that people can use it now to do things that they might not have been able to do before is the nature of the beast. The new classes in Factions and Nightfall made things in prophecies that some people couldn't do before easier, simply by virtue of adding new ways of doing things. As you expand in what can be done in game and how it can be done, players will find new ways to use them to their advantage.
Ultimately, it's a game, and it's in the best interest of the maker to make the game accessable to the masses. This sometimes means tweaks to the experience that make things that were once hard easier. UB is not the first thing to happen that does it (There have been numerous mission tweeks over the years, Heroes, new classes and skills, etc), it just happens to currently be the most talked about one. Ultimately, the sense of accomplishment is that you did X. It shouldn't matter if anyone else did it, who did it faster, or first, or whatnot (unless it's specifically built into the mission/game, like Challenge Missions).
Rene Saliere
Good thread idea. I always find it funny people claim the anti-ursans are the ones crying when in reality, they are crying at the prospect of the game becoming more challenging for them.
You can always tell you are on the right side of an argument when the other side has no actual argument so resorts to 'stop qq'ing' or other inanities. It's the IQ test in shorthand really.
There's another thread up at the moment called 'the ultimate ursanway guide' which is a concept so rich in irony even the OP had the beg posters not to point it out - the irony that is. Next they'll be starting a guide to teach babies how to suck milk.
You can always tell you are on the right side of an argument when the other side has no actual argument so resorts to 'stop qq'ing' or other inanities. It's the IQ test in shorthand really.
There's another thread up at the moment called 'the ultimate ursanway guide' which is a concept so rich in irony even the OP had the beg posters not to point it out - the irony that is. Next they'll be starting a guide to teach babies how to suck milk.