Equal armor for Kilroy Stonekiln's punchout...

I was running through this dungeon with my Mesmer when it occurred to me that there isn't any mechanism for giving all professions the same AL during this quest (No mention of it anywhere that I could find). This creates an unfair advantage for Warriors over all other professions during this quest. This quest also puts casters in a position that they were not designed to be in; hand-to-hand combat.

I propose that along with pre-determined skill set given at the start of the quest, everyone is given the same AL during this quest*. This will level the playing field for all.

P.S. Before the "learn to play" flames start flying, I have done the quest successfully with my Mesmer several times in both Normal and hard mode, TYVM!

*Edited from "base AL of 80" to reflect the true intent of this suggstion, which is NOT to make the dungeon easier, but to make it equitable across all professions.

Why does nobody mention paragons here >> They're better in ursan and just as good here....
Anyway, it makes sense to make all AL the same in the quest. Just add <charactar name> form.
It will be more fair this way, it's not a lot of work for Anet either, so they should do it.

/signed

I could go both ways with this. While you're stuck with different armor levels for this dungeon, you're also stuck with different armor levels for the Norn tournament- and it's that way in the tournament on purpose to see if you can handle the difference. I'm not sure whether balancing out the dungeon would make sense due to that.

There's also the usual "give a man 10 gold and he'll always want more" problem with GW players- they'll find *something* else to equate this with- then beg for that until anet gives in like they have before. *cough*BMP*cough*

It only makes sense.

/sign


Because, 98% of PvEers don't use them because they say "OMG! Paragons be nerfedzor!" Even though they're still the best class in the game.

this make sense...but you still beat it in NM and in HM, so why?

/notsigned

Because its kind of stupid for giving Warriors/Dervs/Sins/Rangers/Paras a bonus and not give it to everyone else.

/agreed

Simple solution - change the Brawling effect to set armour to 80 or something.

I think something similar happens (or at least happened for ome time) to the BMP missions.

But not only that:
- ALL effects that change the full skill bar of a character should COMPLETELY ignore profession, reducing primary attribute to 0 and ignoring armor, and setting armor to a fixed amount.
That includes:
- Junundu.
- Siege Devourer.
- Norn blessings.
- Rollerbeetle races.
- Brawling skills.
- Polymock.
- Dragon Arena.
- Etc.

Why? Because your profession is defined by two things:
- Armor equiped.
- Primary attribute.
And while all your skills are replaced by others, you no longer play as primary or secondary anything, you play as another thing. You are not an elementalist while you are inside a Siege Devourer, your are an elementalist riding a Siege devourer.

This can be done. Since the Dragon arena effect already does so.

/notsigned its easy with any character

Because I'm not the only one trying to do this with a "squishie." And, it makes sense.

And it wouldn't be hard to implement, they did it with the snowball fights.

Yup, snowball fights, dragon arena and some more places.

If an effect replaces the full skill bar with skills that ignore profession the effect should ignore profession too.

It would be as unfair as leaving the BMP considering the armor. Everyone would make them with warriors.
They are supposed to allow any character regardless of profession, without favoring any.

This dungeon is very easy to do, normal mode or hard mode, with casters level armor.

But still, /signed. It only makes sense considering they force you into a melee fight.

even with 60 AL it's easy
but oh well
couldn't rly hurt to make it all equel
makes it better i guess
/signed

/notsigned

It's still easy, and I think partially the reason of this is so players can adapt to any situation (like in the brawling tournament, where you need to adapt to that healing paragon heket by utilizing your knockdown skills).

Still can be done with 60AL just fine too. You still have fixed health and energy.

So you say that Warrios, paragons, rangers, dervishes and assassins should get 60AL instead?

Ok, whatever it is, all profession should get the same.

The dragon arena doesn't change your armor, it's armor ignoring dmg. Try using a shield sometime.

In the Mungri's fighting tournament (if that's what you're refering to when you say "brawling tournament"), you adapt by setting up your skill bar, attributes, weapons, etc. - playing your profession against a variety of professions so you have to be able to adapt to the different opponents.


In this dungeon, there is very, very little in the way of adapting. The only things you can really do to help yourself is to pump up dagger mastery & put the appropriate mods on your brass knuckles. And, you're only dealing with 1 situation - melee combat using a pre-set skill bar.

As for the health, yes, everyone gets the same amount. BUT, the less armor you have, the more damage you take from hits. Which makes it IMBA across the classes.

Hm... no:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit_of_the_Festival

It sets armor to 60. I say.

Regardless of the type of the damage made, that 'sets armor to 60' means that all profession will take the same damage.
Different effects take place after different calculations, some skills count your armor after being hit, some after considering other effects on you...

That's not the point.

The point is that while all your 8 skills slots are replaced by skills not linked to any profession, you are not playing as any profession, like when you ride a Siege Devourer.

I hope you seriously weren't expecting ANet to keep the BMP an exclusive for those that bought GW:EN online, expecially when they can squeeze some more jink out of it. Stop deluding yourself, they were planning it from the very beginning: the only thing that surprised me is how soon they put it on the store while I was expecting it to come out around March-April.

Until there is proof that all armours arent given the same AL /close imo.

I was just thinking of this as I was brawling through the tournament on hard mode. I was noticing my warrior friend taking far less damage than me through the tournament on my elementalist.

I think it'd be a good idea. We get smacked around a lot on front lines.

Making professions different where your profession doesn't affect skills at all only punishes those that favor certain professions.

Simply unfair.

/not signed

It's easy enough with whatever char, though you need to be /A to make it work, so if you change this there will be threads like....

"ANet plz make Brass knuckles req Divine so I kan use my monk on Kilroy more gooder"

and

"ANet plz to make me gets "Sup Absorption" on my Ele so I can get Kilroy more gooder, not fair only warrior can"

Besides Kilroy Dungeon is just a silly place ment to prepare those retarded folks that have no idea how to make a build out of the 1100 skills available for Urasnaway. Just "click" and it's all set up for you. GG.

/not signed

If you look at it, then it'll just make it easier for Survivors to get their R3, and it's easy enough as it is. Someone'll beg to A.Net for a fix for Kilroy, which will cause someone to beg to A.Net for the Norn tourney, and so goes the chain reaction to the point where someone'll beg A.Net to reduce the cost of 15K armor, Ectos to drop outside of UW and FOW, and other stupid things.

So, if you didn't read my rant, here's a summarized version...
The more people that complain about X being too hard or X being unbalanced should just deal with it. Life sucks, get over it.

EDIT: What Orange Milk said. All you have to do is equip a pair of brass knuckles, and the rest of the dungeon is easy. OH NOES, I'M DYING. Oh wait... there's a button here that if I get more than 10 ENERGY, I won't die. A.Net, at least make it a little more challenging instead of making it easier for braindead people who get runs everywhere, and don't bother to learn about the general mechanics of the game.

If you don't agree because it's already easy, then you are asking to REMOVE armor from martial weapon primary professions characters.

This is NOT to make it easier, this is to make it EQUAL.

All cahracters should be the same there regardless of profession.

The Brawling quests are not the Norn tournment. Professions do not have advantages and disvantages depending on opponend. Just some professions have advantages and some have NOTHING.

Already easy? Ok, reason enough to make warriors have 60 AL too.

To put it in simple terms for people....

Because you have a preset skill bar, and you are unable to toggle your skills to better suit you if you are squishy (although I will give you a trick that I have used for awhile... use a set of cheap maxed armor with high armored (vs physical damage runes/insignias), you are at a blatant disadvantage vs a warrior.

This isn't whining, QQ, or complaining, this is an unbalance in the games mechanics that give warriors a very large advantage over casters without giving casters any means of helping themselves (outside of my hint). This isn't a call for a buff for people who are weak players, this is a just a "hey, this is wrong, please fix this" and doesn't hurt anyone... it only fixes a problem in the game. Understand? And no, the dungeon isn't impossible or extremely difficult, however, it is a lot easier if you have 80 AL.

i don't care if my neighbour's grass is greener than mine, as long as mine is green.

This is not about equity, it's about jealousy.

/signed

Makes sense to me. Also, in regards to the norn tournament, it doesn't change my skill bar and limit my weapon choices there. Boxing does, also forces you to get in close. (Beat numerous times on Ele, many more on Warrior, was much easier there)

No.

I have 10 characters. and I have ALL of them at level 20 and Gunnar's Hold Unlocked. I can't envy anyone.

But it's still WAY easier with an Assassin or a Warrior, thanks to their unique armor and primary attributes.

You could say 'use the warrior, then'. But what about others that have no warrior? That's unfair for those that, unlike me, do not have 10 characters and 10 profession, and that why it MUST be fied to ignore profession as ALL effects that completely replace the entire skill bar with the same set of skills regardless of profession should do.

Why? Simple logic: No profession choices -> No profession differences.
Attributes down to 0, armor properties removed. Only weapon, offhand and common runes and insignia equipment taking effect.

And that's for all other 'replace all skills' effects, like Junundu, Siege Devourer, etc.

Equity is related to value... I think you meant equality.

Jealousy is totally unrelated to this issue and it has everything to do with equality.

In normal play, the armor difference is a balance between the professions. Warriors are able to withstand lot of damage and deal average damage. Casters can withstand little damage and deal a lot of damage or have ranged benefits... they don't have to be in the physical mix.

Taking that into consideration, where does jealousy come into play? Sounds a bit unreasonable of you to say that?

All the armor should be the same for this. Anything else is stupid. How easy it is has no bearing. Hard to believe people are dumb enough to think lower armor classes are jelous over the punchout games. It IS about equality.

Exactly. While in the Brawling quests your are NOT ranger or warrior or mesmer. You are a BRAWLER.

Ramirez, this has nothing to do with jealousy. If you had read all of my OP, you'd see that I've completed the dungeon in both NM and HM -several times in fact.

For those of you saying /notisgned because it's already too easy: OK. If raising everyone's AL to 80 makes it too easy, then lower it to 60. Doesn't matter to me. I'm just saying "Level the playing field."

Vicissitudes of life life has what to do with discussion about design disparity in a video game? My sympathies to you and everyone else who has become so down in life that they can no longer see that life is full of joy.
Do you think that this thread is started because the original poster does not know the mechanics of the game? Or is it precisely because the poster is knowledgeable about the mechanics of the game, in this case about armor, that he or she is raising attention to the fact that a disparity exists? Do you think that someone who has no comprehension of mechanics of the game would be posting a thread about armor disparity and how it affects game play?
I'll pay homage to you first as one who walks among the pantheon of gods of GW to give your ego some love. Now let's put aside your condescension and disdain for other players. I know it's a difficult task to have to put up with yammering from other people who obviously have so much less leet skillz as you, but try and think with lucidity. What does Ursan blessing have to do with armor disparity? Or are you just fed up with Ursan Blessing and just ranting here in a totally unconnected fashion?
Because it is not equitable. Whether one can or cannot complete it is not relevant to the point about disparity. You may be skilled enough to do it. Other people that like to think they are the standard bearers of skill by which everyone else must measure may be able to complete it. However, can you honestly say that there are no one finding it difficult or even undoable due to this disparity? Can you honestly say that this disparity is affecting no one? If there were a PvP arena where everyone has to use a sword and shield and are given the same sword melee attack skills but have to wear armor and use attributes only from their primary professions, what do you think the outcry would be? Is "it is still possible to win as a monk" a satisfactory reponse to this outcry? There would be screams to fix it so the professions are on a level playing field. Let's use a different example that illustrate why being able to play, or even win one in a while, is irrelevant as far as disparity goes, except in reverse. Let's look at Dragon Arena, which also has fixed skill bars. Here, the Dragon Blast skill does instant kill so your armor is irrelevant. However, if Dragon Arena allowed characters to keep their attribute setting, it creates a disparity because of primary profession. What do you think would happen? You'll find it crawling with mesmers. Why? Because fast casting will speed up your Dragon Blast spell giving you a distinct advantage over other profession in the arena. Now you argue "but all the other professions can still play Dragon Arena. Their team can still win too." That isn't quite a satisfactory response to the disparity, is it?
Look up the fallacy of slippery slope argument, and you'll find this next to it as an example. I suppose eventually, those other stupid things will lead to the extinction of human race, all because the Irontoe dungeon fixed armor disparity.
The survivor abuse has nothing to do with armor. It has everything to do with KO not counting as death and the "stand up" skill allowing one to avoid death. So how is this relevant to disparity in armor rating for different professions?
Challenging players to use skills available to them effectively to combat different scenarios, given everyone has the same opportunity, is good fun. However, they aren't given the same opportunity in this setting. Whether one uses skills on their bar effectively, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is about even-ness of the playing field.

Personally, I think the game ought to strip everyone's armor when they enter the Irontoe dungeon so characters have to run nake through an icy cave infested with dwarves.

/signed

It's just common sense based on the rest of the design philosophy for the dungeon (equal skills, equal health and energy, equal weapons), but I honestly don't think it will or even should happen just because it's not really a major problem given how easy the dungeon is.

/signed, but it shouldn't be any sort of priority fix

I'd rather see it raised to make it easier, frankly. Losing in Irontoe's Lair is just not going to happen, so each time you're knocked out is really just delaying the inevitable win. Since the rewards are usually pretty crummy, I don't see any problem with making it even easier.

In Hard Mode, with my 60AL ele (Radiant Insignia, never made other armors, since I use PvP chars in PvP and have no place to store them) I can make the HM Fronis dungeon in under 10 minutes without dying a single time and keeping a Berserker scroll effect.

It's not hard. It's only illogical.

60, 70, 80, 100, 42, 47 or whatever.

Much more important than the armor set whilein the dungeon is making it the same for all.

dustbunny,

Good use of large words to make your post seem relevant.

OR

Tremendous employ of hefty terms to construct your post in a manner as to appear applicable. (I too have Microsoft Word with a Thesaurus)

Also well done insulting my apparent "leetness" of skill when your use of vocabulary is an obvious attempt to e-peen that your supposed education level is greater than those who post here. Are you hypocritical at all?

Re-Read the paragraph of mine that you quoted, think about it a sec and you will understand why I mentioned Ursan. If I have to explain then it will become apparent to us all that you stratigically e-peened education level is not as it seems.

There are armor buff insignias for all proffesions that can be added to armor, plus the armor buff mods for daggers, seems like the way to solve this problem already exists. Simply prepare yourself properly before entering. Understanding of game mechanics anyone? (Well put Monkey Slayer)

Since when did understanding game mechanics mean you have to make a special armor set for irontoes lair? The only difference between classes during punchout is the armor. How do people have so much trouble understanding why someone would ask for armor to be equal during kilroy? Of course all professions have their perks but when you are alone and only allowed brawling skills the warriors are definitly given an advantage.

Skills-Same for all professions.
Health-Same
Energy-Same
Armor-Different

Different armor levels for this is stupid. They should all be equal (and lowered).

Yes, you said it. There are armor buffs upgrades for ALL professions.
That is, if a mesmer can increase armor to 80, a warrior can increase it to 120. And even have -3 physical damage reduction.
If a mesmer adds a +5 armor to the daggers, a warrior can do so.
If a mesmer can add a Virtuoso insignia to have +15(75) armor while activating skills, a Warrior can use a Liutenant's to increase the armor to 100 even versus dwarves with elemental damage weapons or even bring a Stonefist insignia to keep enemies knowed down more time.

In a system where armor differences are balanced with differences in skills, if you remove the ability to choose skills, you remove the profession differences, and only armor disvantages remain.

A warrior under the brawling effect it's not a warrior brawling, it's a brawler with extra armor.

If you cannot choose skills and the skills are not related to your attributes, the profession is ignored.

Since the profession is primary attribute+armor, if the profession is ignored, the armor MUST be ignored too.

See? Easy to understand.

There can be only one reason for not wanting the change: Having only characters with advantages there and not wanting those with only disvantaged characters getting the same opportunities.
And that's simply senseless.

They get it, they just pretend not to so they can act like they know something everyone else doesn't. Just ignore them, there are always a couple in this sort of thread. Arguing with them is a waste of time.

Yes, it's painfully obvious that everything ought to be set to a generic state, including armor. Yes, almost all of us get it. No, you'll never get the rest of them to admit they do.

I still say Irontoe's is so easy that the time required to make the change probably isn't worth it, though.