I've been using SS on my curse necro for quite a while, thinking it is the absolute best, highest dmg, most productive skill available for a curse Necro. But, in a recent thread about Spiteful Spirit, Ensign said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Spiteful Spirit-Not an Essential Curse Skill?
Trvth Jvstice
I've been playing this curse bar:
Barbs, Enfeebling Blood, Blood Ritual, Spiteful Spirit, Rend Enchantments / Putrid Explosion / Whatever, "Finish Him!", "You Move Like a Dwarf!", Necrosis.
Spiteful Spirit is generally the worst skill in the bar, but there's nothing I'd rather bring so w/e. I've been reading GWG for quite a while, long before I became a member and I've always accepted Ensign's posts as fact, still do. But, his opinion about SS really has me puzzled. Other than Enfeebling Blood, I've always thought SS was the end all, beat all, best dmg dealer for a curse Necro. In the linked thread I asked Ensign to elaborate on his opinion about the usefulness of SS. He hasn't answered yet, so I'd like to know what the rest of you think about SS and why it is or isn't one of the best skills for a curse Necro.
Barbs, Enfeebling Blood, Blood Ritual, Spiteful Spirit, Rend Enchantments / Putrid Explosion / Whatever, "Finish Him!", "You Move Like a Dwarf!", Necrosis.
Spiteful Spirit is generally the worst skill in the bar, but there's nothing I'd rather bring so w/e. I've been reading GWG for quite a while, long before I became a member and I've always accepted Ensign's posts as fact, still do. But, his opinion about SS really has me puzzled. Other than Enfeebling Blood, I've always thought SS was the end all, beat all, best dmg dealer for a curse Necro. In the linked thread I asked Ensign to elaborate on his opinion about the usefulness of SS. He hasn't answered yet, so I'd like to know what the rest of you think about SS and why it is or isn't one of the best skills for a curse Necro.
Kiasyd117
Well if you are looking for raw power then Feast of Corruption is the way to go but the recharge and a 2 second cast is rather blahzors.
But no you are not wrong SS is the must cap skill from the curses line, and despite a slew of new skills has yet to be rivaled. Wither is getting a small bit of traction with its mechanics change but probably won't surpass SS anytime soon.
But no you are not wrong SS is the must cap skill from the curses line, and despite a slew of new skills has yet to be rivaled. Wither is getting a small bit of traction with its mechanics change but probably won't surpass SS anytime soon.
Calista Blackblood
assassins promise, you wont look back
Trvth Jvstice
I just capped Assassin's Promise today. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems more suitable for a Death Necro. I think Carnae, or Moloch Vein posted a build using this skill recently. I'll look into it, thx.
Calista Blackblood
was moloch 
i started using AP and SS is kinda tossed to the side now
i started using AP and SS is kinda tossed to the side now
Trvth Jvstice
@ Livia, If I remember the build correctly, I assume you're using Mark of Pain, which does more AoE dmg than SS, but requires the Warriors to attack your calls. Assassins Promise is a perfect companion for Mark of Pain no doubt there. Unfortunately most PUGs, who have no idea the amount of dmg a curse Necro can do, wonders "WTF, why is the nec calling his attacks?" Of course this doesn't take anything away from the great combination of these two skills, I just need to be more informative about the way this skill works when playing with a PUG--wish me luck there lol.
Monk Gsb
just use a mm and instead of you calling where ur putting it, see where there attacking and put it on them.
Racthoh
Spiteful Spirit is generally used on the target you're going to kill last, the smallest priority of the group, the physicals. The same targets you're hitting with Enfeebling Blood, the same enemies that are swinging into Aegis. The only useful contribution Spiteful Spirit has is that it occasionally draws a heal away from the target that your physicals are beating on.
If Spiteful Spirit is ever killing anything on its own it becomes a clear sign that your group lacks focused fire. It rarely contributes damage against the targets that pose a threat against your party. If you look at the bar Ensign uses you will notice how many of his skills contribute towards bringing down a single target. This is because the vast majority of PvE mobs have maybe 1-2 enemies that pose some sort of threat to the group and need to be killed immediately. Once that enemy is dead, provided you have tools like Enfeebling Blood, picking off the rest of the group can be done at your leisure.
If Spiteful Spirit is ever killing anything on its own it becomes a clear sign that your group lacks focused fire. It rarely contributes damage against the targets that pose a threat against your party. If you look at the bar Ensign uses you will notice how many of his skills contribute towards bringing down a single target. This is because the vast majority of PvE mobs have maybe 1-2 enemies that pose some sort of threat to the group and need to be killed immediately. Once that enemy is dead, provided you have tools like Enfeebling Blood, picking off the rest of the group can be done at your leisure.
Carinae
Agreed. Spiteful generally goes on targets that attack fast, or deals multiple attacks. For example: Sins, Swords and Barragers. However, priority situations arise where multiple monsters clump up, usually multiple physicals, and in that situation you try to drop it on that group for maximum effect. Even then, it isn't the killing spell, it just pressures the opposing mob. In fact, that is your explicit purpose with SS, to apply pressure. When you understand that point, the targeting of SS becomes obvious on the field.
Enfeebling Blood is the opposite. It reduced pressure. Typically, it always goes to Hammer Warriors first, then Axe guys. However, it really goes on any physical that's putting the squeeze on your party.
Reckless Haste is a combo effect. It works well on the same target as SS, but it also is a substitute for EB in a pinch...if EB is still recharging, for example.
Enfeebling Blood is the opposite. It reduced pressure. Typically, it always goes to Hammer Warriors first, then Axe guys. However, it really goes on any physical that's putting the squeeze on your party.
Reckless Haste is a combo effect. It works well on the same target as SS, but it also is a substitute for EB in a pinch...if EB is still recharging, for example.
odly
Don't put SS on the called target. If you're putting SS on the target you're taking down you're doing it wrong.
Calista Blackblood
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
@ Livia, If I remember the build correctly, I assume you're using Mark of Pain, which does more AoE dmg than SS, but requires the Warriors to attack your calls. Assassins Promise is a perfect companion for Mark of Pain no doubt there. Unfortunately most PUGs, who have no idea the amount of dmg a curse Necro can do, wonders "WTF, why is the nec calling his attacks?" Of course this doesn't take anything away from the great combination of these two skills, I just need to be more informative about the way this skill works when playing with a PUG--wish me luck there lol.
yep [skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]Mark of Pain[/skill]
its usually ok, i rarely pug due to the dire quality of randoms,ive been with some in the past that didnt even know elites existed.one even asked me why i was using daggers
heros on the other hand are generally pretty dumb but do manage eventually to attack what i call
if youve got the party dmg to take the called down quickly you can generally rinse and repeat on another target maybe 2 or 3 times before SS on a backliner recharges
its usually ok, i rarely pug due to the dire quality of randoms,ive been with some in the past that didnt even know elites existed.one even asked me why i was using daggers
heros on the other hand are generally pretty dumb but do manage eventually to attack what i callif youve got the party dmg to take the called down quickly you can generally rinse and repeat on another target maybe 2 or 3 times before SS on a backliner recharges
upier
My curser mostly runs [skill]Divert Hexes[/skill] as his elite (unless I KNOW there will be no hexes thrown around).
Why?
Because I don't solo the game.
Why?
Because I don't solo the game.
Calista Blackblood
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
My curser mostly runs [skill]Divert Hexes[/skill] as his elite (unless I KNOW there will be no hexes thrown around).
Why?
Because I don't solo the game. almost if not totally a waste of an elite slot :S
Why?
Because I don't solo the game. almost if not totally a waste of an elite slot :S
upier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia Dagger Rage
almost if not totally a waste of an elite slot :S
4+ physical damage dealers.
You think [skill]Remove Hex[/skill] is enough?
Plus it's a monk skill - and a protection one at that - which means that the character with unlimited energy has access to [skill]Aegis[/skill], condition removal and [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill].
Sorry but like I mentioned - my necro build has 8 party slots.
That's why I don't waste them on SS.
You think [skill]Remove Hex[/skill] is enough?
Plus it's a monk skill - and a protection one at that - which means that the character with unlimited energy has access to [skill]Aegis[/skill], condition removal and [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill].
Sorry but like I mentioned - my necro build has 8 party slots.
That's why I don't waste them on SS.
voidvector
I would have to agree with OP and most other posters here. SS is overrated.
Other than for farming (that calls for special team combos), SS is not a great skill for a damage elite. Against most mobs, it can easily be out damaged by ele AOE which has shorter cooldown, shorter cast time, more direct impact, and not as enemy dependent.
In many tough areas, Enfeeble and Price of Failure is actually more important in a curse build than than SS, because it is more important to preventing damage than to do damage.
Against bosses, SS usually does very well, but it is outshone here by Spoil Victor.
Other than for farming (that calls for special team combos), SS is not a great skill for a damage elite. Against most mobs, it can easily be out damaged by ele AOE which has shorter cooldown, shorter cast time, more direct impact, and not as enemy dependent.
In many tough areas, Enfeeble and Price of Failure is actually more important in a curse build than than SS, because it is more important to preventing damage than to do damage.
Against bosses, SS usually does very well, but it is outshone here by Spoil Victor.
blue.rellik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia Dagger Rage
almost if not totally a waste of an elite slot :S
It's a niche elite and does its job well
Calista Blackblood
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
4+ physical damage dealers.
You think [skill]Remove Hex[/skill] is enough?
Plus it's a monk skill - and a protection one at that - which means that the character with unlimited energy has access to [skill]Aegis[/skill], condition removal and [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill].
Sorry but like I mentioned - my necro build has 8 party slots.
That's why I don't waste them on SS. sounds like you wanna be a monk :P but it does prove that your not gonna get a life sentence for not running SS
You think [skill]Remove Hex[/skill] is enough?
Plus it's a monk skill - and a protection one at that - which means that the character with unlimited energy has access to [skill]Aegis[/skill], condition removal and [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill].
Sorry but like I mentioned - my necro build has 8 party slots.
That's why I don't waste them on SS. sounds like you wanna be a monk :P but it does prove that your not gonna get a life sentence for not running SS
upier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia Dagger Rage
sounds like you wanna be a monk :P but it does prove that your not gonna get a life sentence for not running SS
It's not about playing monk. It's about abusing what are overpowered skills in PvE. And considering how PvE is being played - the monk has it's share of those skills.
Plus the thing is that SR is overpowered if you have 13 in it or if you only have 10.
So the necro can actually afford them.
(This would be a different story IF the monky heroes would bring condition and hex removal ... but as long as Alesia spams that Orison - she needs a bit of help ...)
And yeah - it is an overkill a lot of the times. The thing is - once one surpasses the AI - pretty much everything is. But one still does not need to lower oneself to the stupidity that is the AI.
It's not about playing monk. It's about abusing what are overpowered skills in PvE. And considering how PvE is being played - the monk has it's share of those skills.Plus the thing is that SR is overpowered if you have 13 in it or if you only have 10.
So the necro can actually afford them.
(This would be a different story IF the monky heroes would bring condition and hex removal ... but as long as Alesia spams that Orison - she needs a bit of help ...
)And yeah - it is an overkill a lot of the times. The thing is - once one surpasses the AI - pretty much everything is. But one still does not need to lower oneself to the stupidity that is the AI.
Calista Blackblood
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
necros can pretty much fill any position in the party quite happilyQuote: Originally Posted by upier It's about abusing what are overpowered skills in PvE. And considering how PvE is being played - the monk has it's share of those skills. pvp'ers abuse skills all the time, might as well do it in pve too
Quote:
Plus the thing is that SR is overpowered if you have 13 in it or if you only have 10.
So the necro can actually afford them. overpowered even post nerf, anet will happily maul SR with the nerfbat when they see fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
So the necro can actually afford them. overpowered even post nerf, anet will happily maul SR with the nerfbat when they see fit
Quote:
I prefer Envenom Enchants to Rip Enchants, and there are better rez choices, SRS comes to mind.|
Originally Posted by upier
to the stupidity that is the AI.
QFT,this made my day,expecially applies to heros
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
If Spiteful Spirit is ever killing anything on its own it becomes a clear sign that your group lacks focused fire.
If it's killing targets regularly during time frames that matter (I.E., it doesn't just happen to get the last damage trigger on the last enemy of a mob) then yeah, your team has a damage problem. During a typical mob encounter it shouldn't be doing anything that will affect the outcome of the fight.
If things aren't going well; if you run into a mob you can't crack immediately, or you take a death or two, or otherwise stumble against a mob, Spiteful Spirit gets a chance to go crazy and dish out a lot of damage. It doesn't do any encounter-changing jobs, but the raw power of the skill makes it attractive. That it's a skill that really excels when things are going badly is the main reason why I think it's worth a slot on your bar.
Moloch Vein
Your team doesn't have a "damage problem" if Spiteful Spirit is the spell that's designated to do the damage. That all depends on what kind of team setup you're running and if you're controlling aggro or not. However, playing Tank/Spank is a pretty boring way of doing things.
An elementalist has no chance to outdamage an SS during most fights in a high-level HM/PvE area. People who think they can are on crack. The real value of an elementalist on the team is utility in the form of snares, KD, disabling, AoE interrupts and wards. That said, I haven't run SS often while playing PvE lately. I finished the last tier of my Leg Guard (Elona) playing with a friend, these were our bars if I remember correctly: Him: (N/A) Assassin's Promise - Mark Of Pain - Barbs - Rigor Mortis - Shadow Of Fear - Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support - "Finish Him!"/Lightbringer's Gaze - Technobabble (Curses 12+1+3 Deadly Arts 8 Soul Reaping 10+1) Me: (N/W) Order Of Pain - "For Great Justice!" - Flurry - Spoil Victor - Mark Of Fury - "Finish Him!"/Lightbringer's Gaze - Technobabble - "Save Yourselves!" (Blood 12+1+3 Soul Reaping 12+1) One of the N heroes (who might or might not run SS) got a Dark Fury slapped on him with a BM5.
Hatchet Child
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Him: (N/A) Assassin's Promise - Mark Of Pain - Barbs - Rigor Mortis - Shadow Of Fear - Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support - "Finish Him!"/Lightbringer's Gaze - Technobabble (Curses 12+1+3 Deadly Arts 8 Soul Reaping 10+1) That skill was almost vital in Kourna areas with Priests. They were invincible with the build they ran for some reason, bit of Daze and "Finish them!" got them in the end.
bungusmaximus
I love spiteful tbh, it CAN dish out crazy damage if you're half decent at cornerblocking.
The only other curse elite I would consider taking in pve is corrupt enchantment (say Byebye dolyak masters  ). Pile up mob->use MoP and spiteful (not on the same target ^^)->cast enfeebling blood->grab a beer->watch the show.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
If things aren't going well; if you run into a mob you can't crack immediately, or you take a death or two, or otherwise stumble against a mob, Spiteful Spirit gets a chance to go crazy and dish out a lot of damage. It doesn't do any encounter-changing jobs, but the raw power of the skill makes it attractive. That it's a skill that really excels when things are going badly is the main reason why I think it's worth a slot on your bar.
I can agree with having skills to fall back on if everything doesn't go according to plan. Having that wider margin of error can be the difference between those one or two deaths and a full wipe. Along the same lines of running minors over superior runes.
However the more humans present in the party the less valuable the skill becomes. In a hero/henchmen scenario I could imagine those situations arising frequently where you can't quite break the mob because you're playing with several sub-optimal bars, and in some cases the AI reacts poorly. Add more humans into the equation and you should be able to coast through most zones without the need for a skill like Spiteful Spirit to go nuts and make up for the shortcomings of the group. If you have good, knowledgeable players with the foresight to bring a source of daze, interrupts, whatever for those occasional tricky mobs then I would reconsider the curses guy. At the very least their choice of elite because Barbs, Enfeebling Blood, and other goodies that can be powered by Soul Reaping are all very useful to the majority of parties.
Trvth Jvstice
I play with PUGS and hero/henchmen. I dropped SS completely last night and gave [skill=text]assassin's promise[/skill] a try. I love it! also mark of pain, enfeebling blood, price of failure, insidious parasite, barbs, and signet of lost souls. Running this with Olias using MM and Koss with D Slash/For Great Justice! We are kicking some serious butt. I was skeptical about Assassin's Promise, but I'm a true believer now.
Thanks for the replies and build suggestions.
Brian the Gladiator
[skill]arcane echo[/skill][skill]spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]enfeebling blood[/skill][skill]barbs[/skill][skill]mark of pain[/skill][skill]rip enchantment[/skill][skill]signet of lost souls[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
Try this bar and tell me it doesn't PUMP! My buddy and I went into DoA with a full Ursan group and instead of using Ursan, he ran this bar and we blew through DoA faster than I have ever seen. Arcane Echo really is the difference between mediocrity and a great source of damage...
Calista Blackblood
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
I play with PUGS and hero/henchmen. I dropped SS completely last night and gave [skill=text]assassin's promise[/skill] a try. I love it! also mark of pain, enfeebling blood, price of failure, insidious parasite, barbs, and signet of lost souls. Running this with Olias using MM and Koss with D Slash/For Great Justice! We are kicking some serious butt. I was skeptical about Assassin's Promise, but I'm a true believer now.
Thanks for the replies and build suggestions. didnt take long he he.
cellardweller
If your plan is to drop 10 things in 20 seconds then SS is your go. If you want to kill one thing every 2 seconds then AP/Barbs is the method of choice. Which is the more effective is determined by your playstyle.
One thing to consider is the anti synergy inherent in using SS and MoP in the same bar. SS is at its opimal when a melee is holding 6-10 red dots on a corner and RH is on them all, a single MoP cast in this situation will cause the bodyblock break within a second or two in HM. MoP on the other hand, does well when you're running party wide defense and are managing the red dots through "orginised chaos" within wards - SS's damage is at its lowest in these situations.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
|
Quote:
Arcane Echo really is situational and sometimes is the difference between mediocrity and a great source of damage...
Fixed.
jiggles
ss+ insidious + price of failure = pure win (on a melee enemy ofc. works even better on dervishes or shadow blades in FoW)
i dont give a crap if you think ss is crap, no matter what that enemy does hes taking at least 70 damage, lets say theyre wielding a sword thats 70 damage ever 1.6ish seconds, if that enemys monk is under pressure hes going to die pretty quick. Or he can stop attacking, stand there looking useless and just be killed that way. Fun either way.
Elementalist, lets take about 6 seconds to cause 5 seconds of aoe damage that everybody moves out of wasting half your energy and causing exhaustion, or even better we can use wards, which about about 10 seconds of fighting no ones standing in making them quite useless. An example of this was in a high end gvg i watched today he was running away, casted a ward of melee whilst being chased by 2 warriors the second he casted it he ran out of it and died. How useful.
And if you have to play an elite thats giving you more energy your not playing a necromancer right. Seriously.
i dont give a crap if you think ss is crap, no matter what that enemy does hes taking at least 70 damage, lets say theyre wielding a sword thats 70 damage ever 1.6ish seconds, if that enemys monk is under pressure hes going to die pretty quick. Or he can stop attacking, stand there looking useless and just be killed that way. Fun either way.
Elementalist, lets take about 6 seconds to cause 5 seconds of aoe damage that everybody moves out of wasting half your energy and causing exhaustion, or even better we can use wards, which about about 10 seconds of fighting no ones standing in making them quite useless. An example of this was in a high end gvg i watched today he was running away, casted a ward of melee whilst being chased by 2 warriors the second he casted it he ran out of it and died. How useful.
And if you have to play an elite thats giving you more energy your not playing a necromancer right. Seriously.
Moloch Vein
Rip Enchantment is far superior to Envenom since the boost to that skill.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Rip Enchantment is far superior to Envenom since the boost to that skill.
Why? I much prefer to inflict poison on the enemy rather than sac myself. Recharge is the only thing better on Rip, and I don't see that as a major issue since you are only removing one targeted enchant.
Calista Blackblood
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggles
And if you have to play an elite thats giving you more energy your not playing a necromancer right. Seriously.
this comment is as clear as chocolate so ill assume your talking about [skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill]
its not about the energy gain at all
its not about the energy gain at all
Moloch Vein
The sacrifice from Rip is very low and the recharge is half. The poison effect is pretty useless in PvE. 20 seconds is a very hefty recharge.
Carinae
If you're using Rip on-recharge, then you should look into other enchant removal, ie: Rend, Profane or possibly Apostasy.
If you not using Rip on-recharge, then Envenom is superior.
If you not using Rip on-recharge, then Envenom is superior.
Moloch Vein
Apostasy in PvE is overkill. Only time I've used it is Gate of Desolation HM (used it on Zhed, actually.) Profane is good, though.
Kale Ironfist
Rip is good for the fact that it is very general purpose. It's good in all situations where you need an enchantment removal. By that same token, however, it is never the stellar skill for any situation.
I use it on my heroes because they will never be able to prioritise which enchantments are best to remove, and which aren't. With the lower recharge, they can spam to remove far more often, and in the process, hit something worth removing. Apostasy would be better, but I prefer using other elites. Profane is probably stronger, but isn't available straight from the get go.
I use it on my heroes because they will never be able to prioritise which enchantments are best to remove, and which aren't. With the lower recharge, they can spam to remove far more often, and in the process, hit something worth removing. Apostasy would be better, but I prefer using other elites. Profane is probably stronger, but isn't available straight from the get go.
Moloch Vein
Generally speaking if I'd choose between Rip and Envenom in PvE I'd definitely go with Rip, but if I did actually need enchantment removal, I'd use Profane or Chilblains.
jiggles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia Dagger Rage
this comment is as clear as chocolate so ill assume your talking about [skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill]
its not about the energy gain at all like to apologise, never ever saw the bottom line of that elite, ill remember to read everything last line.
its not about the energy gain at all like to apologise, never ever saw the bottom line of that elite, ill remember to read everything last line.
Sir Pandra Pierva
AP was my fav elite for the longest while for almost any class. Specially ele and sin