Masters of Undeath ~ A four man MM team

Shadowmere

Shadowmere

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

The Grim Squeakers [REAP]

N/

Some of you may remember a while back I posted about my idea to have a 4 person Minion Master team that would be able to overcome corpse shortages, saccing costs and the general oddity of having 4 necros on a team. By the end of that thread I had a working setup for this concept. However, being the first incarnation of this idea, it had some flaws, I've since reworked and refined the team and am now confident it is entirely workable in almost any area a regular Minion Master can operate. The Build is workable in 4 man areas with slight modifications, but truley shines when used with a standard 8 person group for the ease of the first few kills and increased survivability.

The initial question is, "Why four MM's?" & "How's that possible? Won't there be not enough corpses for everyone?"

To the first question I simply say, because it's obscenely fun and will have you cackling like a Bond villian when you get past 30 minions.

To the latter question; what makes this all possible is that the death magic hex [wiki]Malign Intervention[/wiki] allows bone horrors (albiet masterless) to be created upon the death of enemies without exploiting their corpse. Horrors created in this way can be captured via [wiki]Verata's Gaze[/wiki]. This process essentially allows each enemy corpse to be utilized twice gaining two minions from each enemy death.

The truth of this build is that there is only one "true" Minion Master in the sense that we usually know a MM as. There is one Master who acts as the main Minion Animator, using more traditional minion skills ( i.e. [wiki]Animate Bone Fiend[/wiki], [wiki]Animate Vampiric Horror[/wiki]), while the other three Masters bring additional minion support tools such as; [wiki]Blood of the Master[/wiki], [wiki]Heal Area[/wiki], or [wiki]Barbs[/wiki], in addition to controlling additional minions via the afformentioned Malign & Verata's Gaze Method.

The masters, their skills and equipment as well as a description of their role in the team are as follows.

Master of Hordes ~ [N/P]

Description: This master is armed with the majority of the traditional minion creation spells, as such this master will usually reach their minion cap before the others and maintain their minion numbers with much more ease as well. He/she also makes use of paragon shouts for increased damage and battlefield mobility.

Attributes: Death Magic; 12+1+3 Soul Reaping; 10+2 Command; 8
Skills:
[wiki]Animate Flesh Golem[/wiki]{E}
[wiki]Animate Vampiric Horror[/wiki]
[wiki]Animate Bone Fiend[/wiki]
[Optional Slot]
[wiki]"Fall Back!"[/wiki]
[wiki]Leader's Comfort[/wiki]
[wiki]Signet of Lost Souls[/wiki]
[wiki]Resurrection Signet[/wiki]

Skills for the optional slot;
[wiki]"Go for the Eyes!"[/wiki] For a brief minion damage spike
[wiki]Deathly Swarm[/wiki] For aiding in the first few kills
[wiki]Verata's Aura[/wiki] For use in an emergency

Armor: A Bloodstained insignia & Minion Masters, Radiant, or Survivor as you see fit.

Master of Redemption ~ [N/Mo]

Description: The Master of Redemption ensures that minions deaths do more than simply provide the masters with more energy. Using Jagged Bones and Dwayna's Sorrow minions that die on the field are either replaced instantly or provide a heal to the masters' party. Further minion support is provided by several area heals to quickly and painlessly keep minions going. (NOTE: Death Nova has not been included in this build due to it not being a feasable tactic with these numbers of minions; AI will do nothing but cast it & it's nearly impossible for a human to target specific minions with an army this size)

Attributes: Death Magic; 12+1+3 Soul Reaping; 10+2 Healing Prayers; 8
Skills:
[wiki]Malign Intervention[/wiki]
[wiki]Verata's Gaze[/wiki]
[wiki]Jagged Bones[/wiki]{E}
[Optional Slot]
[wiki]Dwayna's Sorrow[/wiki]
[wiki]Healing Ring[/wiki]
[wiki]Heal Area[/wiki]
[wiki]Resurrect[/wiki]

Skills for the optional slot;
[wiki]Animate Shambling Horror[/wiki] Allows this master to more easily build up minion numbers, the long recharge means that this won't grind against the Master of Hordes' animating.
[wiki]Heal Other[/wiki] Useful for areas where more party support is needed (can be used interchangably with the other Healing Prayers skills)
[wiki]Healing Seed[/wiki] Useful for additional minion healing & party support (can be used interchangably with the other Healing Prayers skills)
[wiki]Signet of Lost Souls[/wiki] Gives a better degree of energy management

Armor: Radiant is a must.

Master of Pain ~ [N/Rt]

Description: Along with providing more minions to the army the Master of Pain gives the army a much more deadly offensive punch through the use of curses.

Attributes: Death Magic; 12+1+3 Soul Reaping; 9+1 Curses; 9+2
Skills:
[wiki]Malign Intervention[/wiki]
[wiki]Verata's Gaze[/wiki]
[wiki]Animate Flesh Golem[/wiki]{E}
[wiki]Barbs[/wiki]
[wiki]Mark of Pain[/wiki]
[Optional Slot]
[wiki]Signet of Lost Souls[/wiki]
[wiki]Death Pact Signet[/wiki]

Skills for the optional slot;
[wiki]Awaken the Blood[/wiki] Drop the extra points into Blood Magic for a boost to Barbs and Mark of Pain
[wiki]Taste of Death[/wiki] A potent self heal for greater survivability
[wiki]Parasitic Bond[/wiki] A useful cover hex and self heal

Armor: Focus on defense and survivability, Tormentor's or Survivor make great choices.

Master of Blood ~ [N/D]

Description: The Master of Blood has the somewhat unenviable job of being the one to provide army wide minion healing via Blood of the Master. In order to safely sacrifice for this many minions this master must maintain several potent defensive enchantments at all times. The result of those enchantments is a build capable of spamming Blood of the Master even at hight minion levels.

Attributes: Death Magic; 12+1+3 Soul Reaping; 10+3 Earth Prayers; 8
Skills:
[wiki]Malign Intervention[/wiki]
[wiki]Verata's Gaze[/wiki]
[wiki]Blood of the Master[/wiki]
[wiki]Aura of the Lich[/wiki]{E}
[wiki]Dark Bond[/wiki]
[wiki]Masochism[/wiki]
[wiki]Mystic Regeneration[/wiki]
[wiki]Resurrection Signet[/wiki]

Notes: This role cannot be performed by a hero, the maintaining of Mystic Regeneration & Aura of the Lich is EXTREMELY CRUCIAL. Using Blood of the Master outside of Aura of the Lich can be fatal. Maintaining Masochism while saccing will provide you with very very agreeable energy management.

Armor: Blessed insignias are recommended as you'll always be meeting the requirement.


Use any weapons for these roles that you would normally use for a Minion Master.

To sum things up all of these roles except the Master of Blood can be filled by heroes effectively (some more effectively even).

This team build is designed for sheer minion overkill, the joys of being an evil overlord, and generally having a ton of fun with minions. Works almost anywhere a regular MM would (normal mode and hard mode).


Feel free to leave questions or comments, and have fun!

Trylo

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

[Here] | CKOD

E/R

from my experience heroes do not understand how to use veratas gaze, and anything produced from malign gets killed if i do not micro it and have it pre clicked...


other than that looks like a good build.

is there a way to put in something like [skill]Order of Undeath[/skill] with masochism and some insane self healing?

OR go 105 with prot spirit and some way of self healing? could Healing Breeze catch up with 2% damage an attack?

mrmango

mrmango

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

Southern California

Charter Vanguard [CV]

Me/Rt

How do you get corpses to begin with in HM? Do you kill animals or get one of the heroes to die a couple times?

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

wow, dude could you pm the build templates in game please or post them in[QUOTE ]>>Template code here<<[/QUOTE ]

thanks,i just have to try this

Marverick

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trylo
from my experience heroes do not understand how to use veratas gaze, and anything produced from malign gets killed if i do not micro it and have it pre clicked... Just assign a hotkey to Verata's Gaze - I use Caps Lock.


Also wouldn't Jagged Bones be better than a Flesh Golem?

Shadowmere

Shadowmere

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

The Grim Squeakers [REAP]

N/

My heroes don't have a lot of trouble using Gaze, it's hit or miss but they will catch enough on their own to have a sizable force.

Order of Undeath wasn't included, because as far as I know it only affects the minions you directly control. Not especially useful for a team focused MM.

You can also switch out both the Golems I use for jagged bones, it's really just a personal prefrence thing there.

When I take it into hard mode I usually put damage spells in the optional slots and target animals first or small groups before moving on.

oh and here's the template codes (with the optional slots open) for all the builds mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of Blood
OApkQIFshuikewVgcAegiwWI7lAA
Quote: Originally Posted by Master of Hordes OAljUwGqJOAtSGVAAsjhxVV5NA Quote: Originally Posted by Master of Pain
OAhDUslXO6hrAQrMYJAAV1kL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of Redemption
OANDUspNO6hrwSFAY0cnYkYC

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

this team build is evil

mrmango

mrmango

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2006

Southern California

Charter Vanguard [CV]

Me/Rt

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmango
How do you get corpses to begin with in HM? Do you kill animals or get one of the heroes to die a couple times? You didn't answer my question lol.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmango
You didn't answer my question lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmere
When I take it into hard mode I usually put damage spells in the optional slots and target animals first or small groups before moving on. there ya go

Boogz

Boogz

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

Variable Speed Farmers[VsF]

Mo/

im also curious to know how do u get corpses on HM , i think that u must kill some animals or let the heroes die sometimes , this build is only for 4-man areas right?

Shadowmere

Shadowmere

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

The Grim Squeakers [REAP]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogz
im also curious to know how do u get corpses on HM , i think that u must kill some animals or let the heroes die sometimes , this build is only for 4-man areas right? I've used it successfully in 4 man areas however that's by no means it's optimal area. if you're using yourself and 3 heroes for this (in 6 man and up areas), simply filll out the rest of the team with henchies (they'll help a lot in the begining). Physical damage dealers like warriors and rangers are handy due to barbs and MoP being present.

Sorry if I mis-represented it that fact. I've used it in 4 man areas to good effect however it's predominately designed to work with a complete 8 man team (though the other 4 can start to seem redundant once the army is going).

kazjun

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

HoVa

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmere
When I take it into hard mode I usually put damage spells in the optional slots and target animals first or small groups before moving on. It's a nice idea and can work. But like Trylo has mentioned, it's quite difficult to get gaze to get the minion from malign. Though since you have 3 copies of gaze it may function better than when I tried using only 1 copy on MoW. I know that with only 1 copy 80-90% of the time the minion is killed before it can be captured.

Carinae

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Reminds me of when we could field 100 minions ourselves. Sigh, memories.

Mickey

Mickey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Eternal Insight

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Reminds me of when we could field 100 minions ourselves. Sigh, memories. This also reminds me of the time when *gasp* Soul Reaping didn't have a timer. Those were the days.

All those minions seem like overkill, and I really don't understand why you would want all of them. Unless it just completely steam rolls everything in Hard Mode, I would just take Sabway. I should probably try out the build first, but answer this question. Is it effective in Hard Mode? I can run Sabway for 90% of the areas I would vanquish, can this build be run just as effectively for at least 80%? Or is it just for the pure joy of seeing 40 minions stampede into an enemy mob?

isamu kurosawa

isamu kurosawa

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

United Kingdom

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Reminds me of when we could field 100 minions ourselves. Sigh, memories. Ahh the good old days...until the MM disconnected.

Calista Blackblood

Calista Blackblood

Permanently Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

Northern Ireland

Nowhere To Run Nowhere To [Hide]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
Ahh the good old days...until the MM disconnected. i want my army back i felt all powerfull

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Holy crap that looks like so much fun. I'm going to try this immediately

Shadowmere

Shadowmere

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

The Grim Squeakers [REAP]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey
All those minions seem like overkill, and I really don't understand why you would want all of them. Unless it just completely steam rolls everything in Hard Mode, I would just take Sabway. I should probably try out the build first, but answer this question. Is it effective in Hard Mode? I can run Sabway for 90% of the areas I would vanquish, can this build be run just as effectively for at least 80%? Or is it just for the pure joy of seeing 40 minions stampede into an enemy mob? While I haven't done a ton of vanquishing (only 1/2 done with Tyria ) the areas I have taken this build into it has well and truley steamrolled everything. It's a bit shakey for the first few kills (which will be gotten largely by the rest of the team) but once it gets going it's got a lot more punch than Sabway imo. That being said, I still take Sabway for many areas where minions are a weaker point (lots of aoe, few corpses, minion stealing foes, etc.).

So it's 1 part effectiveness, 1 part overkill, and 2 parts pure joy

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Reminds me of when we could field 100 minions ourselves. Sigh, memories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey
This also reminds me of the time when *gasp* Soul Reaping didn't have a timer. Those were the days. Sigh.... No kidding. It now takes 4 characters to do what I used to be able to do with just one. I think I'm going to go cry now...

Qdq Swi

Qdq Swi

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

N/

Lol.. those screenies are awesome ;p.

Red_Dragon56

Red_Dragon56

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

N/D

I do usually 3 Jagged Bones hero MMs and myself. So much better as they are almost always in swarms and takes 0 effort.

Not only that but you don't need 4 actual people.

Nice screenies though. MMs rule.

Zodiak

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Gatineau, Qc, Canada

Kiss of Anguish [KISS]

P/W

Unfortunatly many of those skills do not affect minions anymore.

Specifically:

Go for the Eyes
Fall Back

Those two skills affect allies not allied creatures or whatever minions are considered now. Go for the Eyes once did but hasnt in a long time.

Heroes will NOT use Dwayna's Sorrow even if i gave them 10k. I've just STOOD there with minions dieing, etc, disabled ALL other skills and they STILL woudnt cast it, I've tried it on all 3 Necro heroes and all 3 Monk Heroes. They REFUSE to cast it.

What gets me even MORE mad is if you go to the Jade Sea, those stupid Flying Monk Fish ennemies WILL use Drayna's Sorrwo!!

Qdq Swi

Qdq Swi

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

N/

Out of curiosity... Does Splinter Weapon work on minions?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Qdq, Splinter Weapon will not work well on Minions as they have 2s attack rate.

Qdq Swi

Qdq Swi

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Qdq, Splinter Weapon will not work well on Minions as they have 2s attack rate. oh yeh... forgot about that >_>.

Zodiak

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Gatineau, Qc, Canada

Kiss of Anguish [KISS]

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdq Swi
Out of curiosity... Does Splinter Weapon work on minions? I've considered that also

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Wouldn't it be good to bring Death Nova?
*Oops* Forgot to read that other bit, but maybe cancel it when you're on the move?
Just wondering, though -- where does the damage come from?

blue.rellik

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Wouldn't it be good to bring Death Nova?
*Oops* Forgot to read that other bit, but maybe cancel it when you're on the move?
Just wondering, though -- where does the damage come from? I'm guessing all those small packets of damage will equate to a lot of damage

jimmyboveto

jimmyboveto

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

US

Legion of Avalon

W/

If i'm not mistaken, the ebon vanguard standards effect minions, right?

If so...you got a ton of dps there.

Fungus Amongus

Fungus Amongus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare] | [Rare] Alliance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdq Swi
Out of curiosity... Does Splinter Weapon work on minions? Yes.

567891011

Shadowmere

Shadowmere

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

The Grim Squeakers [REAP]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiak
Go for the Eyes
Fall Back

Those two skills affect allies not allied creatures or whatever minions are considered now. Go for the Eyes once did but hasnt in a long time.
Hmm did they change Fall Back in this week's update? Because I know that it was still affecting minions before that at least (can see the lil health gain sparkles when they run).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Wouldn't it be good to bring Death Nova?
*Oops* Forgot to read that other bit, but maybe cancel it when you're on the move?
Just wondering, though -- where does the damage come from? Well it's all about high minion numbers, yeah each minion will only be dealing 10 damage a hit on high lvl foes. but you gotta remember that there's 30 or so minions hitting this high lvl foe that's about 5-10 hits per second. The damage adds up real fast.

Death nova would be good...except is has no recharge time. so with about 35 minions to target (many with high degen) the AI goes nuts and will litterally use no other skill trying to hit every minion with it.

Zodiak

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Gatineau, Qc, Canada

Kiss of Anguish [KISS]

P/W

I've been looking at the roles of the 4 necromancers. Now I understand that the role is for maximum minions, but I thought It might be interesting to find a way of replacing one of them for a Rit/N that would use:

[skill]malign intervention[/skill][skill]Verata's Gaze[/skill][skill]clamor of souls[/skill]

At the number of allied minion creatures, Clamor of Souls might be interesting to try out. My concern is a non-elite source of energy for the Ritualist that doesnt involve spirits.

NecroticChanter

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

Toronto

Real Eyes Realize Real Lies[Tree]

P/

How did the 4-MM team get started up? How would u kill the first few creatures for minions?

Witte Was

Witte Was

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Left GW

Proud Member of : Glob of Ectospasm [GoE]

W/

Wiki says Go for the Eyes! still affects minions..

Zodiak

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Gatineau, Qc, Canada

Kiss of Anguish [KISS]

P/W

How can Go for the Eyes still affect minions according to wiki? There was an update long ago to prevent that? I've never tried it, i just remember the specific update. Just as Orders were made to not affect minions.

I guess I need to do some testing.

The Meth

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

Go for the Eyes! and Fall Back! both work on minions, but minion's seem to not get any damage boost from critical hits, so go for the eyes does nothing beyond providing energy through leadership.

Zodiak

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Gatineau, Qc, Canada

Kiss of Anguish [KISS]

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Meth
Go for the Eyes! and Fall Back! both work on minions, but minion's seem to not get any damage boost from critical hits, so go for the eyes does nothing beyond providing energy through leadership. Flesh Golem does critical.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Flesh_Golem_%28minion%29

Assuming the same stats are affected by all minions, then go for the eyes will affect all minions.

"Minions can inflict critical hits. Like animal companions, minion critical hits do not automatically inflict maximum damage"
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Minion#...h_Degeneration

Shadowmere

Shadowmere

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

The Grim Squeakers [REAP]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiak
I've been looking at the roles of the 4 necromancers. Now I understand that the role is for maximum minions, but I thought It might be interesting to find a way of replacing one of them for a Rit/N that would use:

[skill]malign intervention[/skill][skill]Verata's Gaze[/skill][skill]clamor of souls[/skill]

At the number of allied minion creatures, Clamor of Souls might be interesting to try out. My concern is a non-elite source of energy for the Ritualist that doesnt involve spirits.
Hmm if the energy thing could be solved that would be pretty nice...actually that might be first useful application for that elite I've seen yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroticChanter
How did the 4-MM team get started up? How would u kill the first few creatures for minions? If operating in 4 man areas take additional healing and damage spells in the optional slots. If operating in the standard 8 man environ simply let the other 4 members get the first few kills. (skilled assassins are great for this if you can get one to come along)

I've also edited the original post a bit to show that this is more than just for 4 man areas and it's encouraged to bring backup henchies or people whenever possible.

NecroticChanter

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

Toronto

Real Eyes Realize Real Lies[Tree]

P/

Would it be advisable for the other party members to be saccers for the bodies? then no killing of any mobs is needed

Mr Pvper

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

MGK

W/

just curious, but does this 4 man mm thing work effective in hm? (or is this just a concept that looks insanely awesome and kool?:P)
anyways icould see some issues in engaging enemies, as heros awlays follow behind u and minions follow behind that....... thenu have to constnatly consider corpses and healing minions>_>. Does this concept even do that much dmg agianst high lvl enemies? cause from what i know lvl18 minions dont do much dmg to a lvl28 enemy and the fact that aoe exist could mean gg minions>_>. Just some things to consider