An analysis of why many dislike skill balances
JR
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Originally Posted by Qdq Swi
Whiney PvPers might understand the game mechanics and balances in PvP, doesnt neceserily mean that they know two shits about PvE.
Almost every PvPer I know has played through the game in all campaigns multiple times. Back before reward points, and in the days where you could get better equipment through PvE, you almost HAD to.
That of course is entirely beside the point; Skill balance has a trivial effect on PvE.
That of course is entirely beside the point; Skill balance has a trivial effect on PvE.
Two April Mornings
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Originally Posted by JR
Skill balance has a trivial effect on PvE.
So true. You can easily make it through PVE with almost any skillset. If you really have any difficulty in PVE, see: Ursan Blessing or any other ridiculous PVE-only skills.
Evaine
From what I've noticed, the skill updates aren't really "balances" and they don't seem to be tested before implementation.
sixofone
I'm a PvE player, and I try to keep up with the changes to skills with all of these updates. I play pretty regularly, and I'm still learning the game - so the only real drawback to me has been that it disrupts my learning curve. I start to get a handle on synergy and builds and then a skill gets changed (buffed or nerfed) and I have to go: "Now, wait a minute - how does this affect me?"
Yeah, yeah, yeah - "PvE can be beat with an empty bar"... (sigh)
I like a couple of the changes - Weaken Armor now affects more than 1 target, so I can perhaps save bringing Epidemic to spread that condition (if that's what I'm trying to do).
The last update messed with me because the enemies I was hitting in PvE were behaving differently than before. Their skills got changed, as well as mine, and I got pwned because I didn't realize some of my skills were not as effective as they were the day before. (I lost a Rit on the Survivor track, 80k from tier 2 - but, oh well - it's just a game...)
Anyway, I appreciate that PvP players are kind of like the test pilots in that they take the skills and work the hell out of them, testing the limits and synergies, and showing how some new skills may have thrown the game into a less balanced state. (I think a lot of GW:EN contributed to this imbalance, considering how powerful many of them are compared to Prophecies and so on. Plus, GW:EN has taken away the class specialization since now anyone can: set traps; summon powerful creatures; perform KD's; use shouts; etc. No need to worry about your secondary profession choices anymore; everyone can use the same skills regardless of class!)
All in all, I think the skill changes are a good thing. They keep you on your toes, and keep the game fresh. (I stopped using a Mesmer Thief build, but now it may be more viable because Simple Thievery can interrupt skills, as well as steal them. Gives me more options!)
I just wish ANet would look at making each class unique, and fix things like: Necro skills and Mesmer skills that are often misclassed (Epidemic on a Mesmer primary when Disease is more a Necro thing; SS is more a Mesmer-type skill, and should be a Mesmer Elite); Assassins having only 1 or 2 poisoning skills, some of which are conditional, yet a Ranger can Apply Poison and poison with every attack, or cause bleeding, etc. Just sitting down and really thinking through what a class is about, and what sets it apart, and then come up with skills for other classes that could be potential counters. Make skills that people will go: "Whoa! Only [name class] can access those? I want to play one of those!"
Yeah, yeah, yeah - "PvE can be beat with an empty bar"... (sigh)
I like a couple of the changes - Weaken Armor now affects more than 1 target, so I can perhaps save bringing Epidemic to spread that condition (if that's what I'm trying to do).
The last update messed with me because the enemies I was hitting in PvE were behaving differently than before. Their skills got changed, as well as mine, and I got pwned because I didn't realize some of my skills were not as effective as they were the day before. (I lost a Rit on the Survivor track, 80k from tier 2 - but, oh well - it's just a game...)
Anyway, I appreciate that PvP players are kind of like the test pilots in that they take the skills and work the hell out of them, testing the limits and synergies, and showing how some new skills may have thrown the game into a less balanced state. (I think a lot of GW:EN contributed to this imbalance, considering how powerful many of them are compared to Prophecies and so on. Plus, GW:EN has taken away the class specialization since now anyone can: set traps; summon powerful creatures; perform KD's; use shouts; etc. No need to worry about your secondary profession choices anymore; everyone can use the same skills regardless of class!)
All in all, I think the skill changes are a good thing. They keep you on your toes, and keep the game fresh. (I stopped using a Mesmer Thief build, but now it may be more viable because Simple Thievery can interrupt skills, as well as steal them. Gives me more options!)
I just wish ANet would look at making each class unique, and fix things like: Necro skills and Mesmer skills that are often misclassed (Epidemic on a Mesmer primary when Disease is more a Necro thing; SS is more a Mesmer-type skill, and should be a Mesmer Elite); Assassins having only 1 or 2 poisoning skills, some of which are conditional, yet a Ranger can Apply Poison and poison with every attack, or cause bleeding, etc. Just sitting down and really thinking through what a class is about, and what sets it apart, and then come up with skills for other classes that could be potential counters. Make skills that people will go: "Whoa! Only [name class] can access those? I want to play one of those!"
Shuuda
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Originally Posted by Savio
In my opinion, there are no such things as PvPers or PvErs, simply people who've mastered (or are attempting To master) all aspects of this game (as mentioned, "PvPrs" have done PvP and PvE), and those are not good enough to do so, they call themselves PvErs to give themselves identity, and then make up a bunch of reasons (normally elitism) to justify why they have only (if not at all) Learnt one half of the game. After that, the "PvPers" become a group and portrayed as bad and elitist in order to make the PvErs look better, or victimised by "Elitism" and how "A-net nerfs everything when PvPers QQ over it" etc etc. Naturally, I'm most likely spouting bullshit here. Oh well.
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Yeah I LOVE Blackout on Shiro!|
From what I've noticed, the skill updates aren't really "balances" and they don't seem to be tested before implementation.
We're the ones who test them, since they get better results this way, rather than just getting a small group to test. P.S: This Topic has some lovely quotes, thanks.
Toa Hahli
The only reason i dont PvP anymore is because people take it too serious now. You kill em, you're a noob. They kill you, youre a noob. Either way you lose. PvE is starting to get that way too, Somehow im a noob because i dont take advantage of the overpowered Ursan. Some of the builds i used to use had the same ,if not more, Damage output than Ursan has. Ursan is only one way PvE isnt balanced in anyway shape or form. Its hard to get a group for HM without: 'You have Ursan' Me: 'Yes, but i dont use it' Them: 'OMFG Noob!' then i get kicked and have to use Hero/Hench which isnt bad in the longrun anyways.
nem coke
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Originally Posted by Toa Hahli
The only reason i dont PvP anymore is because people take it too serious now. You kill em, you're a noob. They kill you, youre a noob. Either way you lose.
So wrong. They kill you = you got outplayed/outbuilt/they played gimmick/you were bad/you were bad 5 months ago and you're still bad .You're noob only in one of these cases. You kill them , they say ''OMG noob!'' , you win twice. First you won the game , second you made them rage. It's not that people take it so serious, it's you that take people too serious
 Back to the topic (partly). Some pvpers actually think that ANet favors pvers more and they do have good arguements to confirm that. (example - most of pvp is unplayable during the wintersdays or some other festival) , so you guys need better excuses to bitch at skill balances 
upier
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
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Originally Posted by The Meth
Half of those effects are very limited in the area or specific enemies using them, two of them are completely irrelevent, the other are made meaningless or made into an advantage by one of the following: Prot spirit, Spiteful Spirit, Broad head arrow.
PvE is a little different, sure, but I think we can all agree that any decent PvP player could easily beat 95% of PvE on their first try. Take something like Conjure Nightmare. It's duration was changed by a second. Since it had to be unbalanced - otherwise it wouldn't be touched. It was changed. By a SINGLE second! Now let's consider the increased attack speed in HM. And Signet Of Clumsiness. Foes attack mush faster - and because SoC is balanced on the normal attack speed - that makes the skill completely unbalanced! Or take other active interrupts! Those skills are completely underpowered in a PvE environment. (The mesmer being the perfect example of this and this being also the reason why it's a bit sucky in PvE. I mean - if we have something like Power Spike and it's ability to interrupt spells - but then the monsters run around with "Monster skills" - which don't happen to be spells!) Does this mean that the PvP skills shouldn't be balanced for the sake of PvE? Hell no! What I am saying is that the emotional outburst that accompanies a balance (by quite some PvE players) is completely expectable when we have a game where skills are balanced not only on their effect but also on the other skills and their properties - and the PvE game isn't being looked at when doing such balances. (Hence my suggestion that PvE should be balanced AFTER they balance the skills for PvP. Because it the current game there is no way that a skill CAN be balanced on both sets of rules! I am aware that this would require an insane amount of work - but it wasn't our idea to keep breaking the rules in a game that RELIES on them just so that they would have less work to do!) And that is why I find it insanely insulting that people who don't accept this OR knowingly look away face the players in such derogatory fashion as witnessed after each balance! nem coke
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Originally Posted by upier
Yeah I LOVE Blackout on Shiro!
Where does it say you have to use the same builds all around the place? orite zeh cookey cutterz bildz made yoo think so.
Shuuda
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Does this mean that the PvP skills shouldn't be balanced for the sake of PvE?
There are no such things as "PvP skills", good players call them "Skills"
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upier
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Originally Posted by nem coke
Where does it say you have to use the same builds all around the place? orite zeh cookey cutterz bildz made yoo think so.
Wait - so are telling me if Blackout had a 1 second max duration in PvP (despite having 14 in dom!) - that would be considered a "feature"?
The skill description does NOT match what the skill does! That's the issue! Of course I WON'T use Blackout there! I'll bring WW. 
nem coke
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Originally Posted by upier
Wait - so are telling me if Blackout had a 1 second max duration in PvP (despite having 14 in dom!) - that would be considered a "feature"?
Pvp has many useless skills, that pve finds useful and no one is whining about it as far as I know.
Pls define what you wanted to point out there if I got it wrong.
upier
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Originally Posted by nem coke
Pvp has many useless skills, that pve finds useful and no one is whining about it as far as I know.
Pls define what you wanted to point out there if I got it wrong. But the skills that nobody uses in PvP but are usable in PvE - compared to something like Blackout on Shiro have an important difference. The effect of the skill doesn't make the skill worth taking (eg. there are 8 better skills to put on ones skillbar then the one that is being left at home!) - compared to something like Blackout not WORKING as it should on Shiro. So it's either a: 1. bug - which means that A.Net should fix Shiro so that Blackout disables his skills 2. PvE functions under different rules that make the skills have a different effect then the one listed in the skill itself I would LOVE for Shiro to be blackouted, I'd LOVE for hexes to last their full time, I'd LOVE Skelies to leave a corpse or not be immune to certain conditions - but I think I am all out of luck there. So we accept that PvE has different rules - and that the skills are not balanced in accordance with THOSE rules. And that's why people bitch. Well - some of us. Some just like to bitch ... 
Shuuda
Nope, for the most part, PvE has the same mechanics as PvP.
- There are no "PvP Skills" They are the skills good players use. - Stop segementing things further simply because you cannot see or accept the truth. - Blackout was a great "PvP Skill" as well, and only good Mesmers could use it well (or Rangers, referring to the old R/Me GvG ranger).
RiKio
Well....people hate balances because they kill the gimmicks people use.
The Meth
The effectiveness of blackout on bosses is irrelevant, mesmers don't exist in PvE. /sarcasm
That aside, its true that the mesmer is pretty badly equipped to handle PvE like people expect professions to. Energy denial is useless, interrupts are next to useless compared to what a ranger can put out, and single target shutdown isn't usually in demand. That is why only 1 out of 100 people are playing mesmer in pve. The reason blackout doesn't work, that some enemies have half hex duration (wastrel's worry spam anyone?), is that without it PvE would be even easier. Do we really need PvE to be easier?
Shuuda
There such things as "PvEr Mesmer" it's a horrible sight in my eye, so aweful. They constantly try to prove that Mesmers are good in PvE, as if doing PvE is an achivement, no one really cares anymore.
pygar
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Originally Posted by Evaine
From what I've noticed, the skill updates aren't really "balances" and they don't seem to be tested before implementation.
This is very true, and many people are getting confused with the skill updates because of this- while some of this weeks changes were "balance" related issues, others are about changing the meta for the sake of "shaking things up" which is a good thing. (whether you PvE or PvP- change= good, stagnation=bad)
And yes, we are all openly play-testing these changes for A-net as we speak.... if the changes cause too much grief then A-net will re-tweak the trouble skills or even just revertt hem to how they were.
Toa Hahli
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Originally Posted by Shuuda
There such things as "PvEr Mesmer" it's a horrible sight in my eye, so aweful. They constantly try to prove that Mesmers are good in PvE, as if doing PvE is an achivement, no one really cares anymore.
As if PvP is an achievement no one really cares just a game, get over it
upier
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Originally Posted by The Meth
The reason blackout doesn't work, that some enemies have half hex duration (wastrel's worry spam anyone?), is that without it PvE would be even easier. Do we really need PvE to be easier?
It would need to be different.
And if done right - it wouldn't have to be easier. This would have to mean that those boring annoying smitters should be gone - and the groups would start to need to have some real monks (or they can have smitters NEXT to real monks!). When skills that are being used by monsters get changed - their builds would need to be adjusted. That way the foes wouldn't be just something that stands in your way of getting to the end - but something that might actually hinder one in getting to the end! BUT like I stated before - that would be best left for HM. A good HM - instead of just more cheating. I know - it requires an insane amount of work - since it would basically mean that more then half of PvE would have to be re-written - and I know we'll never get it. So all we have left is to hope that MAYBE they will listen to the bitching and make better decisions in GW2.
The Meth
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Originally Posted by upier
It would need to be different.
And if done right - it wouldn't have to be easier. This would have to mean that those boring annoying smitters should be gone - and the groups would start to need to have some real monks (or they can have smitters NEXT to real monks!). When skills that are being used by monsters get changed - their builds would need to be adjusted. That way the foes wouldn't be just something that stands in your way of getting to the end - but something that might actually hinder one in getting to the end! BUT like I stated before - that would be best left for HM. A good HM - instead of just more cheating. I know - it requires an insane amount of work - since it would basically mean that more then half of PvE would have to be re-written - and I know we'll never get it. So all we have left is to hope that MAYBE they will listen to the bitching and make better decisions in GW2. We can only hope to one day be able to face a balanced, competent, teamwork-oriented opposing force in PvE. Or we can go play PvP.
Shuuda
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Originally Posted by Toa Hahli
As if PvP is an achievement no one really cares just a game, get over it
Idiot, if it's just a game, why are we arguing over balance, or even posting on forums. PvP takes skill (and by PvP I mean Balanced GvG) thus it is an achivement. Whether it's a game or real life, anything that takes effort is an achivement, PvE does not require this.
Snow Bunny
A large part of the problem is that PvE'ers tend largely to solely PvE, or occasionally RA/AB which is quite honestly where you will find the dregs of the GW community.
Most PvPers play both, and both frequently. PvPers do HM/cartography, the like. I don't remember the thread, but it was Age saying to Moko that Moko didn't know anything about PvE, seeing as Moko was a PvPer. Moko's screenshot of her impressive list of maxed out PvE skills is simply one example of the contradiction inherent in PvE'ers dislike of PvP and the people who enjoy it. If PvPers, who supposedly don't understand a thing about PvE, run around in GvG with Tormented weapons, 15k armor, and EotN bandanas/eyeglasses, don't PvE, then how do they have characters with KoaBD and vanity equipment?
Squishy ftw
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
If PvPers, who supposedly don't understand a thing about PvE, run around in GvG with Tormented weapons, 15k armor, and EotN bandanas/eyeglasses, don't PvE, then how do they have characters with KoaBD and vanity equipment? Ebay ? Srry but someone had to say that Agreed tho. I think that a lot of the high end PvP players spend more than enough time in PvE aswel.
Stormlord Alex
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
If PvPers, who supposedly don't understand a thing about PvE, run around in GvG with Tormented weapons, 15k armor, and EotN bandanas/eyeglasses, don't PvE, then how do they have characters with KoaBD and vanity equipment?
Didn't you know? Moko is a hardcore eBayer @ Squishy.... SYNC! Great minds think alike 
Age
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Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker
they're nerfing the hell out of sin's and necro's are getting buffed |
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Originally Posted by Savio There is no PvE balance, and the mechanics aren't that different. And, believe it or not, some PvPers play PvE as well. Not the very hard core PvPers that I know they can't stand the grind.I would say balancing out the mob AI to alleviate for this.This would be especially for those who are playing HM to get their Vanquishing title as well as some other places.It would be nice to have some of the AI nerfs removed. When I post on these boards I am advocating for the new players to the game who don't own every chapter and have vast variety of skills to go through. nem coke
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Originally Posted by The Meth
The effectiveness of blackout on bosses is irrelevant, mesmers don't exist in PvE. /sarcasm
Actually in my fav build for pve I have mesmer, necro(no it's not a MM - I hate them and I hope they make each minion 25e xD) and an ele from heroes. You just need to know how to play it. (no ofense there, I'm not saying you're bad at the game)
Toa Hahli
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Originally Posted by Shuuda
Idiot, if it's just a game, why are we arguing over balance, or even posting on forums. PvP takes skill (and by PvP I mean Balanced GvG) thus it is an achivement. Whether it's a game or real life, anything that takes effort is an achivement, PvE does not require this.
Yea, i can click or press buttons to activate skills, alot of effort. Im sick of PvP'ers thinking their better than PvE'ers and PvE'ers thinking their better than PvP'ers. If everyone stopped with acting like their so superior to one another there'd be no problems. Im done arguing with brick walls ( Egomaniacs) always ends up going nowhere. But i guess you cant expect much from a bunch of 13 year olds hiding behind a computer monitor.
moriz
great, not another one who thinks pvp is just "pressing buttons".
since it's quite impossible to get you to actually experience pvp at it's best, i'm just going to post a little "excerpt" of what's going on in my head as i pvp. arena: alliance battle, kurzick on ancestral lands build: cripshot ranger position: attack shrine (on top of the hill) 4 targets approaches: N/E, E/D, R/Rt, A/E E/D is in front, followed closely by N/E, then A/E and R/Rt a little in the back priority targets: E/D and N/E. E/D because of AoE nukes which can clear the shrine and take away my NPC advantage quickly. N/E because of SS and other shutdown hexes. A/E and R/Rt are not as important, because i can deal with A/E with snare and R/Rt is on lower ground. planned opening moves: interrupts on E/D and N/E. both are heading straight for npcs. begin with most interrupts on E/D and shift over to N/E followup: cripshot on A/E and R/Rt to snare them. if available, try to dshot R/Rt barrage. let NPCS and teammates deal with A/E. focus on shutting down E/D and N/E escape routes: bridge on the side, the hill down the opposite side from attackers. startout position: stand half radar distance from shrine to ensure maximum arrow coverage. kite away from A/E if needed. all those thoughts fly through my head in a split second, before i even press a single button. hell, before i even take a step. i'm not going to post everything that goes on afterwards. i don't have the time, and your brain will probably explode if i do. in fact, the same amount of thoughts and planning occurs every second of pvp i play. GW pvp is more about thinking and split second planning/adjustment than what's on your skill bar. the very fact that you even CONSIDER pvp to be as simple as "pressing a button" is insulting. please at least TRY to learn what goes on behind every pvp match first before posting such a stupid generalization again.
Anon-e-mouse
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
The problem comes when people see that their favorite skill now does 4-5 dps less and view it as a bad thing rather than seeing it widening up the number of viable builds. For example, the RI nerf means that every other nearby AoE nuke has just become more powerful.
There's some mis-conception here, nerfing one skill does not make other's "more powerful", it makes them the next best alternative HUGE difference.
Anon-e-mouse
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Originally Posted by moriz
great, not another one who thinks pvp is just "pressing buttons".
since it's quite impossible to get you to actually experience pvp at it's best, i'm just going to post a little "excerpt" of what's going on in my head as i pvp. Wow, I'm such in awe of your leetness... er not.
Winterclaw
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Why do people only focus on the nerfs to these skills, and not the buffs?
The skills that are nerfed are often imba, but not always. For example WY wasn't too overpowered for the nerf it got. The other reason is that the skills that are buffed are often bad to begin with and the buff usually isn't enough or there's another skill could use the buff.
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mrmango
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Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse
Wow, I'm such in awe of your leetness... er not.
Is there a point to this post?
Anon-e-mouse
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Originally Posted by JR
Whiney PvPers that understand the mechanics and balance of this game far better than you ever will.
Egoist much?
The Meth
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Originally Posted by nem coke
Actually in my fav build for pve I have mesmer, necro(no it's not a MM - I hate them and I hope they make each minion 25e xD) and an ele from heroes. You just need to know how to play it. (no ofense there, I'm not saying you're bad at the game)
You DO realize that I declared that comment to be sarcasm right? No offense, I'm not saying you posted without even reading the text you were quoteing.
It's really odd why they decided to nerf WY! that way, as far as powering paragons its no worse, if not better because it more often triggers finales. They just made it nigh-useless for warrior primaries.
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse
Egoist much?
You can be an egoist when you're on a much higher plain of skill than 99% of the playerbase.
Most players think Paragons deal crap damage.
Winterclaw
You can be an egoist and be on a lower plain of skill than 99% of the playerbase as well.
Anyways, I think most people dislike skill balances is partly because they dislike change that doesn't favor them, even if they only do pve. Take WY, if you are the person that is being targeted by 3 mobs, it isn't going to last very long as is. Now will you live in PvE without it? Yes. Do you like the change? No.
Savio
People used WY in PvE?
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Savio
People used WY in PvE?
Eh, it was good on Koss or Goren when you absolutely had to take him because the quest/mission required them. Otherwise, no, not really. Not much reason to bring a Warrior hero, and players have SY, which is 1,000,000x better.
Shuuda
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Originally Posted by Toa Hahli
Yea, i can click or press buttons to activate skills, alot of effort. Im sick of PvP'ers thinking their better than PvE'ers and PvE'ers thinking their better than PvP'ers. If everyone stopped with acting like their so superior to one another there'd be no problems. Im done arguing with brick walls ( Egomaniacs) always ends up going nowhere. But i guess you cant expect much from a bunch of 13 year olds hiding behind a computer monitor.
Sigh, so uninformed, so little evidence to backup.
-"PvPers" don't think they are better than most players. They are, and they know. - If you haven't noticed yet, most of the best PvPers on this forum don't post in topics about PvErs vs PvPer. Prehaps they have realised that the majority will never accept facts. - From the viewpoint of good PvPers, it's the PvErs who acts like 13 year olds. Denial, elitism over vanity equipment, jealously, egoist without any good reason what so ever, lack of understand about balance, flaming about things you don't understand (balance), thinking their good when they are not. Yeah, so mature you PvErs are, atleast some PvPers can back up their elitist and egoist attitudes with skill, knowledge and understanding. |
