Players. GW. And WoW...

Of course, because I didn't buy this game for pretty armors and titles. So those are extras that I can leave aside without pain.

But when you can't even explore 20% of the map without grind, it's more problematic.

I'm not going to disagree with the rest of your post, but saying that only the hardcore GW players like PvP is a generalization that simply isn't true.

And TBH, I don't think GW needs comercials staring people like Mr. T and Shatner. And I don't think that Blizzard payed the South Park people to make a WoW episode. It has been shown in the past that South Park will poke fun of anything big in the world-only thing it did was reinforce in people's minds that alot of people are willing to pay to play WoW.

Yes. WoW's runaway success means that it's the yardstick by which to measure all MMORPGs.

I never said one was better than the other.

You won't see Arms topping the DPS meters, but it does give some substantial DPS. Also, Blood Frenzy is a darn peachy talent for melee damage.

Regarding attunements: *shrug* They weren't so bad in the first place, so I really see no biggie.

To ComputerWiz: Guild Wars' business model isn't terribly unique when you think about it. It's pretty much just an RPG with expansion packs. This isn't a bad thing, though, since GW is a solid game.

Urg, another WoW thread. Looks like people don't get enough of it, even in RA. I was actually in Cavalon and there was guy, who of course was arguing about the fact that WoW is so much better game when the servers were down. And of course a WoW thread would make Zinger see the light of day.

WoW is a major PvE game. Character improvement is done by GEAR. Gear is so much less importance in GW because they're is a level which is max and people can archive this level quite easily. WoW character improvement is endless. I had a friend who was in a dungeon for 4 hours and in the end got NOTHING, people get sucked into this drive to constantly go forward and forget how much time it requires to keep up with the self improving characters of everyone else. That is the major difference I saw in GW and WoW.

You rarely get "nothing" in dungeons these days thanks to the badge items. Unless you don't kill a single boss or something, but that's a different problem entirely : P

1. Any MMOG should have something like this.

2. As #1

3. Actually, according to ANet, no. They prefer CORPG. It's other people who put the MMO label on it.

4. Only since Nightfall, really, with a big explosion in GWEN. Before then, not really at all. Even now, there isn't the big reliance on gear that I hear WoW has.

5. As #1

6. I sense careful wording of the question to mislead the answer. WoW has a large reliance on grind to gather equipment. GW equipment is largely standardised and it is possible to gather equipment mechanically as good as anyone else's in fairly short order.

7. As #1, but largely for vanity rather than mechanical benefit

8,9. Yes

10. I'd argue, with the exception of areas where henchmen aren't allowed, it's at least theoretically possible throughout GW. And the areas in GW without henchment are a much smaller proportion of the available high-level content.

There are some similarities that are pretty much required by the genre, but that just makes the differences more important by contrast.

Ultimately, on the original post: The thing is that not everyone wants the same thing. Some people play GW over WoW not because of the financial difference, but because they prefer (or preferred, before ANet started catering to the we-want-cheap-WoW crowd) the GW gameplay over WoW.

The WoW style may be what most players prefer, but if every single game on the market went for the same thing, then that would mean that they'll all be competing for the same market while the people who don't like that form of gameplay get left out.

In short, Jeff Strain said it himself, although I'm not sure how much he took his own words to heart with some of the ways GW has at least appeared to be going: Other companies should be leaving WoW to Blizzard and making their own game, not trying to unseat WoW. (Of course, if they do manage to unseat WoW, good for them. But if you're going for the exact same fanbase and fail to unseat WoW, you get nothing, while if you go for people who don't like one aspect or another of WoW, you can do quite well for yourself even if you don't have quite as many players.)

How much of that fabtabulous World of 'wow content' is useful to a level 70 player? Your answer should be example enough. I'm being generous with 85/15% ratio. I'd bet its far less. Considering all that great and glorious content, your end-game character is really at a dead end unless, oh wait this says it better: Saraphim said Minimum, which says a lot, and is correct in his/her assessment. Many of us DO NOT want to join your No Lifer Club. The glorious, wonderful Stat Grind that WoW is, many of us are not fooled by the soul stealing, life leaching tricks begot by Evercrack groupies that took over blizzard a few years back. Fortunately, for many, the best of Blizzard has moved on to much better things.
To each his own. I log in determined to PuG my way through the Crystal Desert Missions+Bonus (NM). . . amazingly difficult for a PuG to complete--almost a dozen failures. Half the players running the wrong way, the other half just standing around taking damage. . . something that can be done (was done) using heroes easily, seems virtually impossible for a random team. Seems we're playing different games, or there is a decided majority that don't measure up to your skill leetness. Somthing I'm sure you can do Hard Mode with ease. . . If stat grinding the same dungeon dozens of times is your bag, (and what you consider content) then you should really stick to WoW. It all about Stats, and grinding for them. . . and Blizzard milking you monthly for your cash.

If you're in a raid that is entirely new to the instance, that no next to nothing about it, then yes. Otherwise, not so much. SSC takes about 3-4 hours total, Karazhan takes about 4, Tempest Keep takes about 2-3, and those are just the first three major raids.

Notice that these raid times can be spread throughout an entire week since it takes 7 days for a raid to reset. That gives you and your guild plenty of space to get things done in an allotted schedule.

I never got far enough in WoW to do raids.
I had already played EQ2, and raided in that game, and WoW was fun but I already had played nearly an identical game for 2 years and couldn't keep interested.
I was kinda surprised when I decided to get GW. It was different enough to keep me playing online rpgs for a couple years more.
I really hope GW2 is different enough to keep me interested for a while.

And how much of GW's content is "useful" (how you define useful) to a lv. 20 character? Think before you answer that. (And also remember that we're talking about end-game content)

The irony is that I somewhat doubt that you doing the Crystal Desert is new to you. Do you like repeating the Crystal Desert?

Almost every time Izzy goes on a new "balancing" spree, I think of starting a new char in WoW.

Most of my friends play WoW, after all. One recently quit, but will not start GW either.


But I just cannot stand WoW. The level and item based gameplay is like a hamster treadmill, the zones concept and all that... it is very polished, but all in all only what EverQuest 2 could have been. Tigole and some other lead designers are former EverQuest cracks, after all.

I could not agree more to Redfeather1975. WoW is basically EQ/EQ2 on steroids.


If they turn GW2 PvE into more mindless grind style title hunt stuff, everyone should consider playing WoW:

Better grind, not so repetitive one area grind as in GW at least much more content, and more focus on PvE. They recently borrowed a bad habit from Guild Wars, nerfing/buffing classes because of their new "Arena" content.


I see the danger that ANet is re-inventing the standard grinder MMO. If GW:EN is a taste of the direction GW2 is taking, the game will have to fight at a disadvantage against other MMO giants that applied said formulas long, long ago.


Zinger has a point, WoW has more challenging PvE content, for different group sizes and skill level. Rewards have to be earned. That some content is limited to the dreaded hard core "Raid guilds" is not really so much of a problem. GW's problem is that every scrub wants to be everything and have everything for free - and it really works out, sadly enough.

I have some guildmates that cannot fight a river scale on even level, and they have 28 titles already maxed, and done all elite areas. This cannot be right. Some of them are even rank 3 to 6 in HA. Incredible, isn't it.

Weee....lllll

Actually, I quite often run instances solo or duo with the hubby just to stock up on pre-TBC enchants and enchanting mats. We were buggering about (just the two of use) in Scholomance the other night, and I managed to bag a lifestealing enchant (currently about 150g on the AH) so I was pretty happy. I also malinger around low level instances now and then to see if anyone wants a hand, I won't fight for them but I'll stand back and keep 'em alive.

WoW has it's faults. Endgame being one of them for me, and yes the few (and I mean few) guilds on our server that have actually made it to BT demand you be available from 7pm to 12 am a minimum of three nights a week. It's a player mentality that I don't really have fun with tbh. Perhaps it's because the server is (I believe) fairly new, that there's maybe three or four guilds that are raiding high end or maybe because the 'hard core' players tend toclump together. I don't know really.

End of day, I'd like to see more immersive PVE in GW, how they can do that, and keep PVP happy, and not make it repetitive I don't know. I have a fairly large amount of faith in Anet though and will pre-order GW2 no matter what the naysayers come up with.

After all, one purchase and if I don't like it I can uninstall, win-win if you ask me.

What I'm wondering is... When is WoW2 due? Or a substantial update of WoW at least? Is it even on the horizon yet?

Or are we looking at a Sims situation, with Blizzard bleeding the userbase by releasing WoW Houseparty updates for years and years?

Another WoW thread? Guess it'll be full of Zinger and Bryant..

+1 then.

And releasing WoW2 is different from releasing WoW expanssion, how?

Oh, to torn your customers apart between the old game and the new game?

The Sims 2 wouldn't have been made if not for the new technological advancement Maxis put into it. Trust me, most companies don't make a short-sight, subpar first game to build a customer base and then make a second game after a very short time.

That is, I said "most".

wow, not like we don't have enough e-peen, now we need real life egotism.


i can pay for WoW, i played WoW, i hate WoW

There are a few things about WoW that I have observed:

1. While the graphics are not cutting edge, they are decent, and more importantly, it runs quite well on a modest machine. This is a big plus for "average gamers" who may not be willing to spend more than $50 for a video card.

2. WoW, gameplay wise, doesn't venture very far from tried-and-true MMORPG staples. This maintains a certain "comfort level" for veteran MMO players, while training new players what to expect.

3. Let's face it, Blizzard, Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo are very recognizable names. As such, anyone who owned or played any of their games is already familiar w/ the source material, and people go w/ what they know.

4. There's a certain illusion that paying a monthly fee means a better game. If nothing else, it means the person will be more likely to devote more time to the game, since there's the idea that you're paying for it already. Since there's this pressure to play as much as possible, the person experiences more of the game, becomes more familiar w/ it, and is more likely to keep playing, (instead of feeling a sense of loss by quitting and losing all the time they've already invested).

5. There's a sort of circular process that keeps the playerbase in WoW large; there's a lot of players, which is used as a selling point to attract more players, etc. Because it isn't instanced, and because there are so many players, WoW feels like a real world, which is a big attraction to those looking for an escape from reality. In GW, it can feel pretty dead, and even a little lonely, because it is mostly instanced, and only the main towns are routinely populated.

Exactly there are way too many carebears who want to LIMIT the capabilites of GW2 to just the way THEY want to play. But, I see from Jeff's comments they want to make a WORLD that EVERYONE can play in and enjoy it. Titles are NOT required, but, the carebears don't like them because they don't have the TIME to get them. 15k armor isn't required, but, the poor carebears don't like the fact they are so hard to get and take too long to get. Only one max damage weapon and offhand is really needed, but, the carebears don't like it that so many others have so many and they only have one of each. lol They want everything easy an/or free.

Nightfall and GWEN and I'm pretty sure GW2 is just opening the doors for other ways to play an enjoy it without FORCING you to grind if you don't want to grind just like NF and GWEN have done. Except maybe for the max gear armor and I'm pretty happy that people can't just run through the content in GWEN and get max gear armor and that I really hope they implement in GW2. Stop the running of content for sure I don't care how many characters you play if you play them you play them EACH just like the first no running through the content. <grin>

GW2 is going to be WoWlike to some extents, it can't help but be because all rpgs online are like that to some extent. GW2 is just going to move closer to the WoWlike experience and give more to players who have the TIME as well as the SKILL and that's really fair. It's not going to be totally like WOW cause there's too many carebears playing GW and they want them to come over to GW2 and buy it as well. Afterall they can't lose their starting base, what they want to do is add MORE of what they didn't get before from the WOWlike players. There must be a fair BALANCE of grind and grindless feeling experiences. When it comes down to it though everything is a certain grind, it's just if you don't like it or it's too repetitive you notice it more. Getting to level 20 is still a grind no if's and's or but's about it, but, since it's pretty fast you just don't notice it was still a grind. You had to go through the paces just like anything else. If you want cash you have to go out and battle mobs to get it or scam noobs lol either way you still have to do something and that takes what? TIME! Yes everything takes TIME and is a form of GRIND.

GW2 will be better than GW in that it will offer up soooooo much more instead of just for carebears this time around as NF and GWEN have been so much better for those that like a little bit more than carebear gaming.

New engine, new mechanics. Not just new items & races.

Yeah... It's a fine line between stagnation and not competing with yourself.

So I take it there's no WoW2 on the horizon then?

I agree with all your observations. I will just comment on this one:
WoW's real selling point is the social interaction. The content isn't actually better than all other MMORPGs, the real meat of the game is the social interaction with other players - that's what draws players in, and more importantly keeps them playing. And that WoW is already so large helps keep this momentum going.

Ironically that's what I like most about GW: that it can be played as a single-player game. Which is my preferred mode of play.

HAY GUYZ LETS COMPARE STARCRAFT TO GUILD WARS!

Starcraft > GW because I paid less for SC and I'm enjoying it more because blizzard didn't break their game with imba shit in their half-baked expansions.

It also has better replayability.

Discuss.

Is it? If I've spent 1000 hours playing and you've spent 10000, do you really need to have a r10 Ursan instead of a r5 Ursan?

I have no problem with having to earn vanity items, as long as the means for doing so isn't too repetitive and boring (sorry, doing the same quest or zone over and over again is boring. For me at least. I'd rather go and do some other zone or mission, or maybe do it with another character or even another build, but doing the same thing over and over again with 'the most efficient' build just isn't something I enjoy.)

When it comes to grinding for mechanical benefit...

A lot of people talk about grind as being "character advancement" and therefor, somehow, that "character advancement" somehow means "fun" and therefor grind=fun. This is an equation I really don't see. My sense of fun comes from two parts: First is the sense of achievement. The first time I do something, there's the sense of achievement. Doing the same thing the same way fifteen billion times to reach some arbitrary endpoint goal? Not fun.

The second, which grind directly gets in the way of, is that while I prefer PvE over PvP, I like playing with builds. A large part of my fun from Guild Wars comes from experimenting with various build concepts and seeing how they go. Now, the ability to freely rebuild is one big help in this, but the other side of it is that this means I don't concentrate on a single character - I have one of each class, and while I have some I prefer over others my most played character doesn't have much more than double the experience of the least. Anything that drags out the maximum level far enough is essentially a barrier to being able to try out a build to its full potential.

Vanity armour is nice to have, but I've earned mine through collecting gold and materials while working on completing every quest in the game and trying out new builds (and turning in the occasional book) rather than repeating the same area over and over again hoping for a particular item to drop or just to build up reputation - with or without certain quests active. (And as I've said before - any game which encourages you to leave quests unfinished for farming purposes like that... has a problem.)

Now, there may be a compromise point in there somewhere - I have mentioned, for instance, that I'd rather have a longer experience treadmill than the titles engine gored we have now, since experience doesn't dictate (at least, not as much) what you do to get it. But the gripping hand, in my mind, is that the people who pride themselves on their ability to grind have plenty of games they can play that suits that style - WoW chief among them. People like me who don't, however, are much more limited in choice - and I don't see any reason why we should get nothing while the grinders get yet another WoW-clone which is may simply be destined to fail when put in direct competition with the giant.

As a PvE Zerg player with over 2000 hours' worth of experience, I was totally turned off from SC when they increased the cost of Spawning Pools. Why does PvP have to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO everything up?

What does WoW have that GW could benefit from?

• Auction House
• Professions - Enchanting (make weapons glow and have a special damage modifier. Glowing weapons are just cool, seriously), Fishing (you can relax and chat with friends), Cooking (make food to heal and other FUN foods too), Leatherworking (make armor), Skinning, Mining, Jewelcrafting (use rings and necklaces, which should be common for all MMOs now-a-days. These were basics in Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights), Alchemy (make potions and other fun stuff), Blacksmithing (make your own weapons/armor!), Herbalism, Engineering (make bombs and more great gizmos like fireworks, mechnical critters and even mounts), Tailoring, First Aid (bandaids to heal and ways to remove conditions) and more coming. This really adds a lot to it, both for the economy and player relations.
• Bigger storage - banks with MULTIPLE slots.
• Guild Storage - share items with the guild and everything is logged.
• Better guild organization. More than just Leader, Officers and Members. You can also set permissions for every group such as allowing all members to recruit, etc.
• More bag sizes for your inventory on your character(s).
• Mail system - very useful to message friends and to transfer items.
• Mounts - they're just fun and make it feel more realistic than zoning/mapping (though zoning is still nice).
• Jumping - just makes it feel more real. No one likes trying to go to an area in Guild Wars that is half of a normal step (appx 3 inches) and having to go around to get to the spot you just tried to reach where any normal person could easily step up to.
• Swimming - need I say more?
• The ability to explore areas without zoning (more fluid, realistic movements). I'm not fond of losing some buffs such as the Armor of Salvation buff after being in a zone for under 30 minutes and proceeding through the game.
• Seeing equipment in towns/outposts. You can show your sword/shield/mace/bow/staff/etc just by pressing z to take your weapons out/put them away.
• Character voices - type /joke and actually hear a joke. /laugh and hear your laugh. Minor but still nice.
• Potions - How can you have an RPG and not have potions for health and mana?
• Option to use more than 8 skills. You can put whatever you like to use in the skillbars, be it skills, profession/crafting stuff, potions, mounts, you name it.
• THREAT - the tank/warrior attacks the enemy and generates a threat level which keeps the enemy focused on him and him alone. A monk is not meant to be a tank, nor an ele or any other squishy class. Warriors have high armor for a reason, to take the enemies focus and keep it not to let the enemies wail on their teammates.

That's all I can think of for now, but they'd all be nice enhancements to GW.

Edit: Another thing I really loved about WoW was being out exploring or doing a quest and you could team up with other people and do the quest together that way. Or if you came across one (or more) of the enemy faction, you could PvP right there. That's real PvP.

I highly enjoyed WoW (I played on a free, high rate/15x exp server) but even after I hit level 70 and got all my gear, there was still plenty to do thanks to crafting, 40 man raids and lots of what I mentioned above.

Most of the people I've known who think that GW should offer a lot more for people willing to spend more time, have a permanent ass print in their chair in front of their PC.

I think there's good reason to design a game so that people won't feel rewarded for wasting their lives in front of the screen. Games should be about fun, but not about spending as much time for as long as possible in them.

Some of us enjoy games where you have to think a little bit. Potions and unlimited skills are the opposite of what GW was made for.

Yup sure do that shows I put in the time to be MORE efficient than you are. I have a better quality character build than you do (R10 to your Rless) and more than likely better SKILLED than you are since SKILL = TIME PLAYED + INTELLIGENCE. <grin>

As GW2 will present a persistant world things will need to be harder and harder and require more time an effort just like the titles and PVE Only skills do now. Those of us who put in the TIME are now REWARED for that time, but, of course these are NOT REQUIRED Skills or titles, but, they do enhance the CHARACTER of the Player and his characters who have accomplished the more important ones that allow hiim/me/whoever to get to places and play there that others cannot or couldn't before. <grin> Not all titles are beneficial, not all PVE only skills are beneficial, but, there are enough of them to make some characters/players pretty POWERFUL over others and that's what's fair about the game now and in the future with GW2 as well. <grin>

Thank you so much for proving my earlier point everyone. You have shown how truly intelligent Riverside can be.

Yeah, sad thing is, this guy thinks GW would 'benefit' from potions and shitload of skills on skillbar.

Not a chitload of skills on the skillbar, but, the ability to LOAD ANY skill onto the skillbar at any time. I never liked I was limited to 8 skills for a whole mission or through a whole zone not even knowing what I was up against. Even in the fantasy world the adventures can call upon ANY of their SKILLS at ANY time during their quest. I'd rather they use the DnD method and have us rest during the adventure or mission and be able to rejuv our skills as we use them up. DnD still has the best and most fun method of adventuring.

But that is one of the main selling points of GW. Why buy the game if you don't like that?

Having only 8 skills means you have to think about what you will encounter on the quest or mission and set up your skills accordingly. If you fail the first time you learn what is needed and add those skills applicable to that area. I much rather have to use my brain and think than have everything available all the time.

No Potion Wars please

One growing problem in a lot of MMOs is that potions are becoming even stronger than healers. Taking damage? Forget the healer, drink a potion. Drink two at once. And if you're good at making potions, you can just sit down and make healing potions and make a fortune.

Why does everyone compare GW and WoW? I've played both, and they're only minimally similar. We might as well compare the Might and Magic series with WoW, because they're both role-playing games in persistant worlds. And... both with outdated graphics.

Growing problem eh? Atleast MMOs are going in the right direction. If i can heal myself better than any team-mate, great! I'm fedup with relying on retards.

What I'm trying to say is that potions shouldn't be the best and only way to heal yourself, eliminating the need for healers. If potions were implemented in GW, it would mean monks and healing rits would become absolutely unwanted, people would just buy potions.

There's a WoW-ripoff MMO called Last Chaos, apparently they're calling it Potion Chaos because success in that game is determined by how many potions you can chug in two seconds.

I've played Last Chaos and it's not that bad using potions.

I completely agree with dan-the-noob, why should I risk my life be relying on someone who may have no clue what they're doing, when I'm the tank and meant to keep people alive? It makes it much nicer if you enjoy soloing the world in exploration and fighting/leveling.

Heck, even with potions in WoW, if you do raids you still need to have healers to do a lot of the raids. You could have 15k buffed health and be fighting Archimonde or Illidan and you still need at least two priests and druids healing you. Archi alone can hit for ~5-6k so heals need to be flowing.

Potions and other healing consumables are on a cooldown timer. They don't want fights to be won based off of potion duty.

Yeah... I mean to hell with a multiplayer game where you have to have cooperation with your teammates
/sarcasm

Incorrect equation. Skill = Time played x Average amount learned per arbitrary time unit + Natural ability would be far more accurate. How much do you as a player really learn from Ursanwaying the six ciphers for the fiftieth time?

And so, with all that "skill", you feel that you also need mechanical benefits as a crutch? The pre-titles system did allow better players to shine - they were able to make better use of what the even playing field allowed, rather than simply having to spend all their time preparing to have fun rather than having fun. In my mind, that shows more skill and accomplishment than simply being able to go and grind more advancement points until you can brute-force the opposition.

You call that fair? By the Six Gods! How does having to spend uncounted hours in grinding repetitive play so you can Ursanway an elite area fair?

There are dozens of games on the market that cater for the way you like to play. At the risk of sounding like a cliche, why don't you go play one of those and leave mine alone?

Well, if he likes to grind, he should play one of those free to pay grind playing game instead of whinning around.