I just made a paragon, and am working out what skills to run on her.
Aggressive refrain seams to be pretty standard on skill bars recommended here, but it seems to me frenzy makes a good, and at times better alternative.
With cracked armor, you will be taking 40% more damage, with frenzy, 100% more, so bad in both cases. And I imagine ai monks will burn a lot of energy trying to remove cracked armor from you, although with the change foul feast, this may not be as big a deal. Another drawback of aggressive refrain is either reapplying it, or taking (and constantly using) an energy based shout to maintain it. Stopping every 15 seconds to shout doesn't appeal to me.
The obvious pro of frenzy is that you attack faster.
My tentative bar looks like:
[skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]blazing spear[/skill][skill]spear of fury[/skill][skill]frenzy[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill][skill]focused anger[/skill][skill]for great justice![/skill][skill]signet of return[/skill]
So I guess my question is, is my assessment of frenzy accurate? And what improvements can be made to my bar. I plan to mainly play hm gwen dungeons with this.
Frenzy vs Aggressive Refrain
Asha Rai
Tyla
For Paragons, Aggressive Refrain > Frenzy.
Unremovable buffs with next to no drawback ftw.
Unremovable buffs with next to no drawback ftw.
Keekles
You should add "there's Nothing to fear" to your bar. It's just way too good =)
a) Stance Cancel
b) Micro-manage Prot Spirit
Although, I don't see anything wrong with AR. In fact, I usually go with 2 para heroes, one of whom also has AR. TntF! and SY! seems to balance things out quite well.
a) Stance Cancel
b) Micro-manage Prot Spirit
Although, I don't see anything wrong with AR. In fact, I usually go with 2 para heroes, one of whom also has AR. TntF! and SY! seems to balance things out quite well.
Gaia_Hunter
To sum up paragons are rarely target by AI, so it doesnt matter if u have cracked armor or not.
I used to be annoyed that monks spent so much energy removing cracked armor, but during battle its not priority for them. Also Im generally giving one of my eles or necros extinguish, so Ive no problem with aggressive refrain anymore.
I used to be annoyed that monks spent so much energy removing cracked armor, but during battle its not priority for them. Also Im generally giving one of my eles or necros extinguish, so Ive no problem with aggressive refrain anymore.
Team Ramrod
In pve, you can use whatever you want, and it will still be effective. If you're gvging, aggressive is the way to go on a para.
Washi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asha Rai
Stopping every 15 seconds to shout doesn't appeal to me.
You don't have to stop to use shouts. TNTF ftw.
Asha Rai
Thx for the input all. I'm seeing no compelling reasons to use AR though, although I observe some people are very pro AR.
The damage difference is obviously an issue, but against hard mode ele bosses, I'll be relying on prot regardless of the IAS used. Other than that, I can think of only two stance removal skills, but frenzy has a 4 second recharge, so thats no big deal. That just leaves the 33% vs 25% advantage of frenzy, and the minor issue of constantly having a condition on u.
@ keekles good idea *replaces res with sprint*
The damage difference is obviously an issue, but against hard mode ele bosses, I'll be relying on prot regardless of the IAS used. Other than that, I can think of only two stance removal skills, but frenzy has a 4 second recharge, so thats no big deal. That just leaves the 33% vs 25% advantage of frenzy, and the minor issue of constantly having a condition on u.
@ keekles good idea *replaces res with sprint*
Tyla
Still. Frenzy consumes more energy, and Anthem of Flame is free energy with AR, the condition is minor, if not less. AR is even unremovable.
Asha Rai
Yeah, will have to see if energy is a prob. SY lasts 5 seconds for me though, so thats 6 energy every 5 seconds plus 2 pips, so I figure I should be ok. May need to replace a spear attack with gfte though.
Arkantos
Aggressive Refrain is the best IAS for a paragon. Add TNTF to your bar with 12 leadership and you won't have to stop to reapply AR.
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Ramrod
In pve, you can use whatever you want, and it will still be effective.
Just to test that, I ran into the Underworld on my elementalist carrying Flare and Firestorm, with my heroes running similar builds, and a friend I grabbed doing the same. We tried to kill some Aatxes, and died in seconds.
You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever.
You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Just to test that, I ran into the Underworld on my elementalist carrying Flare and Firestorm, with my heroes running similar builds, and a friend I grabbed doing the same. We tried to kill some Aatxes, and died in seconds.
You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever. That's mainly dependant on the monks.
Prot Spirit > Aatxe.
You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever. That's mainly dependant on the monks.
Prot Spirit > Aatxe.
Tearz1993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Just to test that, I ran into the Underworld on my elementalist carrying Flare and Firestorm, with my heroes running similar builds, and a friend I grabbed doing the same. We tried to kill some Aatxes, and died in seconds.
You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever. Possibly the most useless post I've seen this week...
Anyways personally I liked AR because in PvE there are random dmg spikes which would screw you over if you have frenzy up... Also, as people have said, AR can be maintained by using AoF as well which is useful even without AR
You, sir, are a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing liar. Or ignorant. Whatever. Possibly the most useless post I've seen this week...
Anyways personally I liked AR because in PvE there are random dmg spikes which would screw you over if you have frenzy up... Also, as people have said, AR can be maintained by using AoF as well which is useful even without AR
- Tain -
AR is unremovable and renewing - after you cast it, you're done. It's plenty of IAS, and leaves your energy open. With that, I like to run energy attack skills on a SY! bar (Vicious Attack, Spear of Fury, and Swift Javelin). This also means that ALL of your adren is going to SY!, and although yours is already a nice 5s, there is always blocking/blinding/hexes that can slow down your adren gain.
Zahr Dalsk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tearz1993
Possibly the most useless post I've seen this week...
Your face is useless.
Anyways, my point being that while in low-end PvE anything will work, the same goes for low-end PvP like RA and AB.
Humans are not much more difficult to predict than AI are. Just watch their patterns and you can see what they'll do.
Anyways, my point being that while in low-end PvE anything will work, the same goes for low-end PvP like RA and AB.
Humans are not much more difficult to predict than AI are. Just watch their patterns and you can see what they'll do.
Richardt
In low end PvE you could prob. get away with Frenzy-heck even I tried it at some point on my para-and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
But if you really want to get serious with your para, use AR. Sure the cracked armor is a little annoying if an aggro breaks, but it's better than getting hit for double damage.
But if you really want to get serious with your para, use AR. Sure the cracked armor is a little annoying if an aggro breaks, but it's better than getting hit for double damage.
Daenara
Agressive > Frenzy on a paragon. If you put on a sup leadership headpiece for that first cast, you can get 24/25 second agressive refrain, which is easy to keep up with anthem of flame, or TNTF if you don't like to stop to shout.
Axel Zinfandel
If talking about PvP, then I really don't know.
If not, then oh dear god no. AR AR AR AR. I advise against using Frenzy in PvE unless you seriously need to, or know very well what you are doing. Even so, AR can be kept up 100% of the time without too much effort. Even TINTF can keep it up! 25% vs 33% is not that big of a difference compared to how much more energy you'll be wasting away with Frenzy.
Cracked armor is no big deal and by no means does it make you squishy, despite what people think. in PvE you should be running full Centurion and a max/near-max shield. Even if AI does decide to target you, a small kite will shift their attention almost immediately, and you can resume attacking. Cracked armor can be removed by a good monk with no problem, and if your getting energy problems off that, then you should get a better build for said monk. In my experiences, Cracked armor is being reapplied so much during battle that monks tend to ignore it and focus on others (mainly because of the placement of the condition removal on his bar. Keep in mind that heroes prioritize skills to the left more often.)
Besides, with the new Foul Feast, your necro will be thanking you for the cracked armor.
If not, then oh dear god no. AR AR AR AR. I advise against using Frenzy in PvE unless you seriously need to, or know very well what you are doing. Even so, AR can be kept up 100% of the time without too much effort. Even TINTF can keep it up! 25% vs 33% is not that big of a difference compared to how much more energy you'll be wasting away with Frenzy.
Cracked armor is no big deal and by no means does it make you squishy, despite what people think. in PvE you should be running full Centurion and a max/near-max shield. Even if AI does decide to target you, a small kite will shift their attention almost immediately, and you can resume attacking. Cracked armor can be removed by a good monk with no problem, and if your getting energy problems off that, then you should get a better build for said monk. In my experiences, Cracked armor is being reapplied so much during battle that monks tend to ignore it and focus on others (mainly because of the placement of the condition removal on his bar. Keep in mind that heroes prioritize skills to the left more often.)
Besides, with the new Foul Feast, your necro will be thanking you for the cracked armor.
Sir Owns Alot EP
I personally use Frenzy, and having a cancel stance is not all that important in NM PVE. You will rarely be targeted as long as you have minions/tanks, so not too many worries about the double damage.
Naylyn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asha Rai
With cracked armor, you will be taking 40% more damage, with frenzy, 100% more
Seems like a pretty clear choice to me. No matter what small benefits that frenzy may have, 60% more damage is a lot. Take AR.
Clarissa F
Your cracked armor will last about 5 seconds, tops, before Dunk gets condition-happy with the healing. Olias is dead as KFC, but at least I don't have cracked armor! 
blue.rellik
I would like to point out that -20 armour doesn't always increase all damage by 40%. It only affects armour-affecting sources so something like a Sin will hit you roughly the same with each attack, Frenzy literally is 100% damage though
matsif
agressive refrain is 25 energy tho...hard to use mid battle if it runs out
still, after recently starting my paragon, I would have to say AR is better than frenzy, because I put condition removal on all my hero monks and lose the cracked really fast
still, after recently starting my paragon, I would have to say AR is better than frenzy, because I put condition removal on all my hero monks and lose the cracked really fast
blue.rellik
If AR runs out when you're in battle then you fail at being a paragon
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
If AR runs out when you're in battle then you fail at being a paragon
Yes. I really don't see how it's possible for a character that specializes in shouts go without a chant ending in ~20 seconds.
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
Yes. I really don't see how it's possible for a character that specializes in shouts go without a chant ending in ~20 seconds.
If your group is really rolling along, it can be a pain in the ass to keep AR up. If I'm going to spend 70% or more of my time running between fights, I just grab flurry. It's not like the damage reduction is going to matter if I'm chainsawing things that quickly.
Richardt
Matsif, your AR should only run out if you die in the middle of a fight.
Bring a staff with ya and switch to it when you rez and that'll fix ya right up.
Bring a staff with ya and switch to it when you rez and that'll fix ya right up.
kobey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
If your group is really rolling along, it can be a pain in the ass to keep AR up. If I'm going to spend 70% or more of my time running between fights, I just grab flurry. It's not like the damage reduction is going to matter if I'm chainsawing things that quickly.
Apologies if I misunderstood your statement, but as mentioned before, you don't have to stop to shout.
fenix
The Campfire strikes again.
Frenzy is good on a Warrior, bad on everything else. Just use Aggressive.
Frenzy is good on a Warrior, bad on everything else. Just use Aggressive.
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobey
Apologies if I misunderstood your statement, but as mentioned before, you don't have to stop to shout.
Yes, but you can't be lazy. Anyway, TNTF! is often my only non-adrenaline unconditional self-targeting shout on my bar, and it alone isn't really enough to keep AR up. At 12 leadership, AR has a 21 second duration matched with a 20 second recharge on TNTF!. That really doesn't leave a lot of leeway.
It's pretty easily the better option if you're actually spending most of your time fighting, though.
It's pretty easily the better option if you're actually spending most of your time fighting, though.
blue.rellik
An option is just to bring "They're on fire!", especially with the buff to blazing spear
fenix
I've found that to keep it up, just bring Anthem of Flame. It's hard NOT to keep it up that way... and with 12 leadership it's a 3 second burn, so that's a good thing.
blue.rellik
The only problem with that is that the chanter has to stop, which can get annoying. Especially if some have mending refrains on them
fenix
True, but it's just for a second, better than the alternative (having to spend 25e over and over)
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.rellik
An option is just to bring "They're on fire!", especially with the buff to blazing spear
Hmmm... that might work nicely with [skill]burning refrain[/skill], I'll give it a shot.
As for anthem of flame, it's a pain to keep stopping if I'm running around a lot. However, I usually do use that or anthem of weariness if I'm not.
As for anthem of flame, it's a pain to keep stopping if I'm running around a lot. However, I usually do use that or anthem of weariness if I'm not.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
At 12 leadership, AR has a 21 second duration matched with a 20 second recharge on TNTF!. That really doesn't leave a lot of leeway.
See attached. Headpiece swap's are win with refrains.
Luminarus
TNTF Recharges in 20 seconds, therefore it ends once every 20 seconds (assuming you use it on recharge), in that case you should have 1 second leeway when running between fights, and AR should never go down. Just switch to a staff the first time you put up AR so you can use tntf straight away if you have to, (and you can wait a bit of time before putting it up due to it ending in 12 seconds (i think thats how long it lasts)
AR > Frenzy when shouts happen. However, frenzy is better for warrior primary's because it isnt in para's primary attribute.
AR > Frenzy when shouts happen. However, frenzy is better for warrior primary's because it isnt in para's primary attribute.
odly
The only reasonable alternative for AR is (imo) Drinking + Drunken Master + disabling post processing effects.
It'll cost you a PvE only slot, but it's a cheap maintainble 33% ias. (as is Soldiers fury, but that costs you your elite slot and lasts less long.)
It'll cost you a PvE only slot, but it's a cheap maintainble 33% ias. (as is Soldiers fury, but that costs you your elite slot and lasts less long.)
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
See attached. Headpiece swap's are win with refrains.
Add a 15 minute forum browsing time to that 20 second recharge, and it becomes a lot harder to maintain .
.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Add a 15 minute forum browsing time to that 20 second recharge, and it becomes a lot harder to maintain .
Lemme guess; finding that one patrol to get credit for the vanquish?
.
Lemme guess; finding that one patrol to get credit for the vanquish?