Another point of view -
How many people have trouble keeping money NOT making it?
The Guild Wars Economy - in fine shape?
Malice Black
Shuuda
The ecomony will always suck for some, and be great for others, why bother?
Winterclaw
Stop buying picks, don't by elite armor, just get the skills you plan on using, and keep whatever max inscribable weapons that are in a skill line that you use (if you buy, don't spend more than what a crafter asks) and you don't have to worry about money too much.
If you want to keep money, it's pretty easy, you just won't have the good looking items.
If you want to keep money, it's pretty easy, you just won't have the good looking items.
Maverick2201
I don't claim to be an economist but wouldn't a good economy be when many people can afford the things they want? If prices are low, then many people are feeling good and the value of a gold piece is high. Its when stuff costs ridiculous amounts that inflation has taken place and the economy is truly "bad".
Honestly, I'd like to know what exactly one of the people saying the economy is bad thinks a good economy would be like. Please... paint a picture of a "good" economy. Is it exorbitantly priced high-end goods that only the uber-rich can afford? I'm sorry to say, but an economy getting better is one where even the lower class people can afford some luxuries. Look at something like a car. Back in the early 1900's only the super-rich could afford one. Now everyone can afford one. Is that a bad thing? By your statements, I think you believe it is.
Basically, all it boils down to, as some others have pointed out, the economy as it stands is only really "bad" to the richest, most elite players in the game. Those people are still the richest and most elite players in the game but they're slightly less rich now. To that overwhelming minority, I and many others will likely say, screw you. Go roll around in your mountains of ectos, shards and platinums and let us "little people" enjoy the fact that we can now afford some things that used to only be available to people who lived in mom's basement farming 24/7.
Honestly, I'd like to know what exactly one of the people saying the economy is bad thinks a good economy would be like. Please... paint a picture of a "good" economy. Is it exorbitantly priced high-end goods that only the uber-rich can afford? I'm sorry to say, but an economy getting better is one where even the lower class people can afford some luxuries. Look at something like a car. Back in the early 1900's only the super-rich could afford one. Now everyone can afford one. Is that a bad thing? By your statements, I think you believe it is.
Basically, all it boils down to, as some others have pointed out, the economy as it stands is only really "bad" to the richest, most elite players in the game. Those people are still the richest and most elite players in the game but they're slightly less rich now. To that overwhelming minority, I and many others will likely say, screw you. Go roll around in your mountains of ectos, shards and platinums and let us "little people" enjoy the fact that we can now afford some things that used to only be available to people who lived in mom's basement farming 24/7.
lacasner
Maverick, ideally people should be able to afford what they "need" only, and nothing more. Everything else is extra that should be worked for accordingly, and Anet has ruined this particular aspect.
Malice Black
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
Maverick, ideally people should be able to afford what they "need" only, and nothing more. Everything else is extra that should be worked for accordingly, and Anet has ruined this particular aspect.
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lacasner
That is irrelevant to what should be done though...need constitutes just what PvP-only characters have, and not much more. It is not even close to as subjective as to what people are making it out to. However, Anet cannot reverse the course of action its taken...thus talking about this topic will get us nowhere.
Feathered
@ lacasner how can anet not reverse what they have done? they may not be able to fix what has happened to the market but they can fix what is ruining the market to some extent (loot scaling combined with anti farm script(
aapo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by romeus petrus
And how exactly do you think people would farm something that drops from the end chest in UW in HM?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by romeus petrus
If you think that is farmable, it is either your not telling the truth, or you've never made it to the end chest in UW HM.
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Maverick2201
So what you're saying, lacasner, is that a good economy IRL would be an economy where you could afford only your food, water and basic clothing? I don't think that would be a good economy. In fact, I believe that was the way this country was during the Great Depression for many. The richest of the rich enjoyed the luxuries of life while the rest could just afford the bare essentials unless they toiled endless hours without rest.
Unless you buy gold from a RMT, you still have to farm and toil to get luxury items. EVEN if you Ursan, which is considered by many to be just on the legit side of buying gold from an RMT, you still have to toil for an hour or two to buy something worth 10k... and that doesn't even include the hours toiled just to GET to the high-end areas and get the r8-r10 Norn Rank to make 10k in an hour or two.
So really, my point holds true... the richest of the rich are the only ones aggravated by this "bad" economy in which those that are not super-rich can afford some of the "finer things in life".
I'm sorry but your theory that a "good" economy only exists where the majority of players can afford nothing more than their basic needs to play the game is something that only a Guild Wars elitist would say.
Unless you buy gold from a RMT, you still have to farm and toil to get luxury items. EVEN if you Ursan, which is considered by many to be just on the legit side of buying gold from an RMT, you still have to toil for an hour or two to buy something worth 10k... and that doesn't even include the hours toiled just to GET to the high-end areas and get the r8-r10 Norn Rank to make 10k in an hour or two.
So really, my point holds true... the richest of the rich are the only ones aggravated by this "bad" economy in which those that are not super-rich can afford some of the "finer things in life".
I'm sorry but your theory that a "good" economy only exists where the majority of players can afford nothing more than their basic needs to play the game is something that only a Guild Wars elitist would say.
Dallcingi
GW economy is fine... if a player wants to buy an item and can, great.
Economy is messed up only if player can not buy the item they want (given its not super high end)
Cause that will be called depression.
Economy is messed up only if player can not buy the item they want (given its not super high end)
Cause that will be called depression.
Maverick2201
Thank you Dallcingi... For a moment I thought I was the only sane one in here...
Snow Bunny
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shuuda
The ecomony will always suck for some, and be great for others, why bother?
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lacasner
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Maverick2201
So what you're saying, lacasner, is that a good economy IRL would be an economy where you could afford only your food, water and basic clothing? I don't think that would be a good economy. In fact, I believe that was the way this country was during the Great Depression for many. The richest of the rich enjoyed the luxuries of life while the rest could just afford the bare essentials unless they toiled endless hours without rest.
Unless you buy gold from a RMT, you still have to farm and toil to get luxury items. EVEN if you Ursan, which is considered by many to be just on the legit side of buying gold from an RMT, you still have to toil for an hour or two to buy something worth 10k... and that doesn't even include the hours toiled just to GET to the high-end areas and get the r8-r10 Norn Rank to make 10k in an hour or two. So really, my point holds true... the richest of the rich are the only ones aggravated by this "bad" economy in which those that are not super-rich can afford some of the "finer things in life". I'm sorry but your theory that a "good" economy only exists where the majority of players can afford nothing more than their basic needs to play the game is something that only a Guild Wars elitist would say. |
For one, in guild wars a person, with the proper time and effort put into it, can purchase any item. Farming gives a steady income which is consistent and never goes down, even with loot scaling. Thus, why would Anet want to make things even easier for people by making almost everything obtainable to every average joe who only players 1-2 hours per week. They are called vanity items for a reason.
You don't "have" to do anything, as long as you can obtain all your necessities in this game you are equal to everyone else. Tbh, your arguement is flawed all around, and yes now it is indeed too late to revert the economy and market to how it was before. There is no way to revert the inscription system and all the greens that flooded the market, plus all the duped armbraces as well(which are still out there, shocking isnt it).
Feathered
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
This is sort of my point.
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GloryFox
Economics's lesson 101
High End Profit occurs when you offer someone goods or services that people
1) Need
2) Want
or
3) Desire
If you cannot make money through offering services then you can make money the hard way through farming for it. Farming takes time and skill, mostly time. If you are not willing to take the time to learn the markets, understand the needs, gather your resources for trade or how to solo farm. Then you can just stay poor while the rest of us move on.
The economy is not broken, people are broken and want a quick fix. You don't need high end armor, the best weapon skins, or titles. If you feel you need these then save up your money or learn how to provide for needs and services that others want.
Now with the above said I will admit that ANet has nerfed quite a few farming spots, and quite a few farming builds, but not all of them.
High End Profit occurs when you offer someone goods or services that people
1) Need
2) Want
or
3) Desire
If you cannot make money through offering services then you can make money the hard way through farming for it. Farming takes time and skill, mostly time. If you are not willing to take the time to learn the markets, understand the needs, gather your resources for trade or how to solo farm. Then you can just stay poor while the rest of us move on.
The economy is not broken, people are broken and want a quick fix. You don't need high end armor, the best weapon skins, or titles. If you feel you need these then save up your money or learn how to provide for needs and services that others want.
Now with the above said I will admit that ANet has nerfed quite a few farming spots, and quite a few farming builds, but not all of them.
N1ghtstalker
my friend bought a perfect tormented shield today for 100k and 5e
lets panic?
lets panic?
roshanabey2
There is no problem, if anyything it has got better since 2005...more people can afford more expensive things including your 'casual payers' they can afford more expensive things can someone explain to me how that is a bad thing?
Or do you want to be rich while others are poor.
Before it was you were either rich or poor and the amount of people in the middle were of rare, but now there are less poor and less rich and most people can afford elite items.
Don't take it as if I am against rich people but the idea of people being able to afford what they like, surely is a good thing?
Or do you want to be rich while others are poor.
Before it was you were either rich or poor and the amount of people in the middle were of rare, but now there are less poor and less rich and most people can afford elite items.
Don't take it as if I am against rich people but the idea of people being able to afford what they like, surely is a good thing?
aapo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
For one, in guild wars a person, with the proper time and effort put into it, can purchase any item. Farming gives a steady income which is consistent and never goes down, even with loot scaling. Thus, why would Anet want to make things even easier for people by making almost everything obtainable to every average joe who only players 1-2 hours per week. They are called vanity items for a reason.
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Fril Estelin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Malice Black
Play more, earn more.
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We brought this onto ourselves, of course.
Aerian_Skybane
Don't listen to what the economists say.
Why?
Because they like math.
And math, is very much a part of the Axis of Evil.
Honestly everyone, there is no point discussing something that does not exist in a world where everything magically falls from creatures you commit a fanatic and regularly scheduled genocide upon. Or grabbing an infinitely random piece of loot from a medieval safe you broke into. I mean seriously, there is no such thing as a stable (or even normal) economy when the laws of economy (and physics) are non-existent one a wide scale degree. If oil kept magically falling off of random shit I killed when I go hunting, then I am quite sure gas prices would be low and the beginning of a glorious age of utopian value would erupt unto our human sphere. And even then people would bitch about the "economy" in Guild Wars.
Why?
Because they like math.
And math, is very much a part of the Axis of Evil.
Honestly everyone, there is no point discussing something that does not exist in a world where everything magically falls from creatures you commit a fanatic and regularly scheduled genocide upon. Or grabbing an infinitely random piece of loot from a medieval safe you broke into. I mean seriously, there is no such thing as a stable (or even normal) economy when the laws of economy (and physics) are non-existent one a wide scale degree. If oil kept magically falling off of random shit I killed when I go hunting, then I am quite sure gas prices would be low and the beginning of a glorious age of utopian value would erupt unto our human sphere. And even then people would bitch about the "economy" in Guild Wars.
Maverick2201
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
There is such a blatant flaw in your arguement that I'm surprised you even tried to pass it along. GW economy cannot be even remotly compared to rl economy, or the great depression as you have compared it to.
For one, in guild wars a person, with the proper time and effort put into it, can purchase any item. Farming gives a steady income which is consistent and never goes down, even with loot scaling. Thus, why would Anet want to make things even easier for people by making almost everything obtainable to every average joe who only players 1-2 hours per week. They are called vanity items for a reason. You don't "have" to do anything, as long as you can obtain all your necessities in this game you are equal to everyone else. Tbh, your arguement is flawed all around, and yes now it is indeed too late to revert the economy and market to how it was before. There is no way to revert the inscription system and all the greens that flooded the market, plus all the duped armbraces as well(which are still out there, shocking isnt it). |
Or is it your opinion that unless you are an elite player with more time on your hands than god, you shouldn't be messing around in those areas anyway?
How long do you think it would take a player playing 1-2 hrs a week to get to the point where (s)he could survive in FoW or UW (solo or H/H)
I don't believe that a player playing 1-2hrs a week should be able to get that kind of stuff. Thats my point. My point is that even with the "broken economy", you STILL have to toil hours and hours per day to get some of the high-end crap you people hold so near and dear.
Trust me, you are no less vain with your vanity items if a few more people have them because they are equally as vain (or is it stupid?) to spend so damn much more money on a nifty-skippy rare skinned item that is functionally the same as any other skin.
The undeniable fact is that people like you (elitists) are really truly the only ones upset that your endless, mindless farming with builds you just found on the internet doesn't bring in as much money as it once did. You hit the nail on the head... given x amount of time, ANYBODY can get WHATEVER they want in this game. Well, thats always been true and always will be true. So really, vanity items only prove how little of a life one has. They don't show off your 1337-ness since a blind, retarded monkey can use a 55 build and farm nm Minotaurs for a couple hundred gold per run. Given enough time, even they could buy a mini-Kuunvang. What does that prove? Do you have to tell everyone that sees you and him in the same district that you got it much faster than he did because you have skills and he doesn't?
Striken7
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Look, there is massive deflation. Everybody makes a TON of money now a days. Due to dungeons, quest rewards, ursan runs of the deep/urgoz/FoW/UW, it is very easy to make over 100k in gold in a week without even farming. The large amount of gold in the economy (now, relative to Factions/Phrophecies) explains why everybody seems to have 15k/chaos gloves/fissure, becuase the amount of gold has gone up and the price of those have stayed constant.
The value of everything semi-rare has also taken a plummet, due to the inscription system and over farming. No weapon has any real value today except for the one's Malice mentioned. |
People who choose to spend their time farming tons of gold have ways to show their vanity, while someone who wants a particular armor or weapon just because it looks good to them isn't faced with an insurmountable brick wall just because that particular item is deemed "rare". Anyone who doesn't want it this way is simply ignorant and selfish; it's a game, not your personal sandbox where you have everything and everyone else has nothing.
lacasner
@ Maverick:
I never said I farmed for my own individual wealth, and if you even remotly paid attention to what I said you would see I merchanted and power-traded with my small initial gain which was gotten to farming, chest running, etc. Also, just playing through this games campaign will get you all the gear you need to beat it, so your claim of needing 100k+ to have a successful guild wars experience (storyline wise) is completely preposterous. There is boundless evidence everywhere to support this, just ask anyone in any guild wars city what their net profit or loss was from playing through the campaign.
I never said I farmed for my own individual wealth, and if you even remotly paid attention to what I said you would see I merchanted and power-traded with my small initial gain which was gotten to farming, chest running, etc. Also, just playing through this games campaign will get you all the gear you need to beat it, so your claim of needing 100k+ to have a successful guild wars experience (storyline wise) is completely preposterous. There is boundless evidence everywhere to support this, just ask anyone in any guild wars city what their net profit or loss was from playing through the campaign.
Snow Bunny
I think many of you are missing my point.
I was asking if there was a problem, or not. I myself believe there isn't one, mainly by judging by the sheer amount of people walking around with vanity items and those standing on the rings.
I believe that after 3 years, unless you're just coming into GW, unless you haven't played much at all, you should have some degree of cash.
I was asking if there was a problem, or not. I myself believe there isn't one, mainly by judging by the sheer amount of people walking around with vanity items and those standing on the rings.
I believe that after 3 years, unless you're just coming into GW, unless you haven't played much at all, you should have some degree of cash.
romeus petrus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aapo
- One run takes around 1 hour 20 minutes with r10 Ursanway party with consumables .
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I dare you to post a screen of you finishing UW HM in 1:20 min. Even using God mod.
And since Im very sure you would not be able to produce such a screen, that just goes to prove that you have no real knowledge what HM elites require.
romeus petrus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
Lol, I'll just leave this comment to someone who actually has the patience to rebuttal your feeble assertion as utter stupidity. You're either highly ignorant, or you just started playing this game recently, and if that is the case, then I can't really blame you for your point of view. However, your statements are filled with such conviction and arrogance one is to think you are experienced in the game; so I really find it hard to believe you would make such a uneducated claim onto what I said.
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It seems to me a combination of the two.
Maverick2201
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
Lol, I'll just leave this comment to someone who actually has the patience to rebuttal your feeble assertion as utter stupidity. You're either highly ignorant, or you just started playing this game recently, and if that is the case, then I can't really blame you for your point of view. However, your statements are filled with such conviction and arrogance one is to think you are experienced in the game; so I really find it hard to believe you would make such a uneducated claim onto what I said.
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Whatever... the point is, people that don't farm this game 24/7 can currently afford some (not all nor very many) of the elite vanity items in this game and you and I must agree to disagree on whether that is a good or bad thing.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
@ Maverick:
I never said I farmed for my own individual wealth, and if you even remotly paid attention to what I said you would see I merchanted and power-traded with my small initial gain which was gotten to farming, chest running, etc. Also, just playing through this games campaign will get you all the gear you need to beat it, so your claim of needing 100k+ to have a successful guild wars experience (storyline wise) is completely preposterous. There is boundless evidence everywhere to support this, just ask anyone in any guild wars city what their net profit or loss was from playing through the campaign. |
The Meth
As long as a new player can get their max armor, max weapons and a decent amount of skills (read: all the ones that don't suck, which is at most 30 for each class) the guild wars economy is leaps and bounds better then any other mmorpg. If anything the problem is that with nightfall and factions players are so rushed towards lvl 20 that they have no time to accrue the money for armor and skills like they did in prophecies.
lol
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aerian_Skybane
Don't listen to what the economists say.
Why? Because they like math. And math, is very much a part of the Axis of Evil. |
lacasner
Ok...that's all fine and dandy, except why would I agree to disagree with you on something that you have yet to give any proof on about? (maybe your lack of experience of needing 100k+ to beat the game?) I think you can continue to live in lala land where as I'll stick to reality, thanks.
roshanabey2
You can judge the economy by ecto prices, IMO I like it around 5k, any higher the economy becomes elitist, any lower, nothing has any value and trade will only be used for tomes or very high end items.
I still stand to what I said before:
I still stand to what I said before:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by roshanabey2
There is no problem, if anyything it has got better since 2005...more people can afford more expensive things including your 'casual payers' they can afford more expensive things can someone explain to me how that is a bad thing?
Or do you want to be rich while others are poor. Before it was you were either rich or poor and the amount of people in the middle were of rare, but now there are less poor and less rich and most people can afford elite items. Don't take it as if I am against rich people but the idea of people being able to afford what they like, surely is a good thing? |
Maverick2201
Listen to you calling everyone with a different opinion inexperienced. I suppose there isn't even a tiny chance that you could be wrong, eh?
I was wrong to say that 100k wouldn't get you a set of max armor, max primary and max offhand. That was quite a bit off. My initial statement about it being the arbitrary amount I decided on to buy "almost anything" is pretty true though. I guess maybe I misunderstood what you meant here:
By that I am thinking you're saying that "average joe", playing 1-2hrs per week, could buy all but the most elite items in the game. All the most elite items go for well over 100k so I figure 100k will get you "almost everything". My point is that it would take an inordinate amount of time for someone starting today to go from 0 to 100k gold. Certainly a lot more than you think. Now, with you having played for quite some time and already having access to several working builds and profitable areas, you can certainly make 100k in a reasonable amount of time. We're not talking about you, though, Mr. Elite... we're talking about the lowly pitiful "average joe" as you refer to casual players.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Maverick2201
Even with the economy in the "bad" state you believe it is in, I'd love to see anybody play just 1-2hrs a week, starting today, and make 100k (my arbitrary amount required to buy "almost anything"). And lets face it, unless you salvaged stuff for all your materials, 100k isn't gonna get you a set of max armor, a max primary and a max offhand... let alone outfitting heroes, etc. required to get through dungeons or high-end areas.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
For one, in guild wars a person, with the proper time and effort put into it, can purchase any item. Farming gives a steady income which is consistent and never goes down, even with loot scaling. Thus, why would Anet want to make things even easier for people by making almost everything obtainable to every average joe who only players 1-2 hours per week. They are called vanity items for a reason.
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Evaine
Personally, I don’t think that there's anything wrong with the Guild Wars economy. From what I see when I’m in major towns in American Districts there are lots of players hawking services and lots of players eagerly clamoring for those services - especially runs - and none of them are cheap.
It’s kind of comical to see the characters tricked out with the most expensive armor and bling posed on the stairs in Kamadan or in the center of the courtyard at Shing Jea Monastery. Level 20s with nothing better to do. Or maybe they’re the ones who are selling (or would that be power-trading) in chat and trade.
The economy may have changed but I don’t think it’s dead. For one thing, everyone seems to want to look like the players in the battles you can observe only no one wants to PUG so no one can see all your fancy stuff.
It’s kind of comical to see the characters tricked out with the most expensive armor and bling posed on the stairs in Kamadan or in the center of the courtyard at Shing Jea Monastery. Level 20s with nothing better to do. Or maybe they’re the ones who are selling (or would that be power-trading) in chat and trade.
The economy may have changed but I don’t think it’s dead. For one thing, everyone seems to want to look like the players in the battles you can observe only no one wants to PUG so no one can see all your fancy stuff.
Alleji
From my perspective, yes, GW economy is screwed up, but that's just another way of saying "I don't like it". It's all subjective. I prefered the old proph-only economy, when a perfect weapon was actually worth something, a perfect rare-skinned weapon was worth A LOT of money. Perfect mods were worth something. (Anyone remember +30 staff heads for 50k?)
And, you know, stuff was actually rare. Mid-range stuff was rare... Now mid-range items do not exist. Items that are worth around 100k are extinct - everything is either dirt common and very few things are still rare, like crystallines. I can't even think of anything else off the top of my head, because I just browsed trade forums (after close to a year of not playing, so I had no clue what's going on) and I see dwarven axes, sephis axes, RUNIC BLADES for sale... for under 50k. Seriously, what's up with destroying the value of everything?
I also miss the time when not everyone had FoW armor, but this isn't anet's fault in any way. In 2.5 years of the game's existence more people simply saved up for that armor than in the first 6 months. Everything else is anet's fault, though >.<
IMO every single major move regarding economy they made was for the worse.
And, you know, stuff was actually rare. Mid-range stuff was rare... Now mid-range items do not exist. Items that are worth around 100k are extinct - everything is either dirt common and very few things are still rare, like crystallines. I can't even think of anything else off the top of my head, because I just browsed trade forums (after close to a year of not playing, so I had no clue what's going on) and I see dwarven axes, sephis axes, RUNIC BLADES for sale... for under 50k. Seriously, what's up with destroying the value of everything?
I also miss the time when not everyone had FoW armor, but this isn't anet's fault in any way. In 2.5 years of the game's existence more people simply saved up for that armor than in the first 6 months. Everything else is anet's fault, though >.<
IMO every single major move regarding economy they made was for the worse.
Feathered
IMO no problem but the way they wer hitting solo with the nerf bat was sorta like trying to beat the candy out of a cement pinyata... putting in loot scaling did nothing for bots it just made more grind for all of us...
aapo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
Lol, I'll just leave this comment to someone who actually has the patience to rebuttal your feeble assertion as utter stupidity. You're either highly ignorant, or you just started playing this game recently, and if that is the case, then I can't really blame you for your point of view. However, your statements are filled with such conviction and arrogance one is to think you are experienced in the game; so I really find it hard to believe you would make such a uneducated claim onto what I said.
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lacasner
If you cannot understand that making all items in a game attainable to everyone with little to no effort is bad, then I'm afraid there isn't much more I can say to you.
Feathered
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
If you cannot understand that making all items in a game attainable to everyone with little to no effort is bad, then I'm afraid there isn't much more I can say to you.
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Ravi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
If you cannot understand that making all items in a game attainable to everyone with little to no effort is bad, then I'm afraid there isn't much more I can say to you.
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Feathered
>.> what is everlasting beetle tonic? in all my 3 years i have not herd of it....well almost 3 =/