A PC Dev on Piracy and PC Gaming

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

I posted this in another thread, but I think it's interesting enough to merit its own. While piracy doesn't apply as strongly to GW, the pieces on Asian gaming and gaming computers are particulary interesting.

Guild Wars does an excellent job at working on mid-range PCs, which accounts for a large part of its success, and for the failures of games like Crysis. However, I see a lot of people whose computers still have quite a bit of trouble with this game. This invites the question - What kind of rig should the devs make GW2 playable on? Is GW1 accessible enough?

Second, on Asian gaming. Setting aside xenophobic and racist stuff, is it really worth it to make Guild Wars available to Asian players at all? Piracy in Asia makes for an intensely competitive market. How many players are going to be willing to pay for Guild Wars when every other game is free?

Anyway, I'm rambling. Here's the article, discuss.

From the Sins of a Solar Empire forums here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draginol

Piracy & PC Gaming
By Draginol Posted March 10, 2008 20:48:46

Recently there has been a lot of talk about how piracy affects PC gaming. And if you listen to game developers, it apparently is a foregone conclusion - if a high quality PC game doesn't sell as many copies as it should, it must be because of piracy.

Now, I don't like piracy at all. It really bugs me when I see my game up on some torrent site just on the principle of the matter. And piracy certainly does cost sales. But arguing that piracy is the primary factor in lower sales of well made games? I don't think so. People who never buy software aren't lost sales.
Is it about business or glory?

Most people who know of Stardock in the gaming world think of it as a tiny indie shop. And we certainly are tiny in terms of game development. But in the desktop enhancement market, Stardock owns that market and it's a market with many millions of users. According to CNET, 6 of the top 10 most popular desktop enhancements are developed by Stardock. Our most popular desktop enhancement, WindowBlinds, has almost 14 million downloads just on Download.com. We have over a million registered users.

If you want to talk about piracy, talk about desktop enhancements. The piracy on that is huge. But the question isn't about piracy. It's about sales.

So here is the deal: When you develop for a market, you don't go by the user base. You go by the potential customer base. That's what most software companies do. They base what they want to create on the size of the market they're developing for. But not PC game developers.

PC game developers seem to focus more on the "cool" factor. What game can they make that will get them glory with the game magazines and gaming websites and hard core gamers? These days, it seems like game developers want to be like rock stars more than businessmen. I've never considered myself a real game developer. I'm a gamer who happens to know how to code and also happens to be reasonably good at business.

So when I make a game, I focus on making games that I think will be the most profitable. As a gamer, I like most games. I love Bioshock. I think the Orange Box is one of the best gaming deals ever. I love Company of Heroes and Oblivion was captivating. My two favorite games of all time are Civilization (I, II, III, and IV) and Total Annihilation. And I won't even get into the hours lost in WoW. Heck, I even like The Sims.

So when it comes time to make a game, I don't have a hard time thinking of a game I'd like to play. The hard part is coming up with a game that we can actually make that will be profitable. And that means looking at the market as a business not about trying to be "cool".
Making games for customers versus making games for users

So even though Galactic Civilizations II sold 300,000 copies making 8 digits in revenue on a budget of less than $1 million, it's still largely off the radar. I practically have to agree to mow editors lawns to get coverage. And you should see Jeff Green's (Games for Windows) yard. I still can't find my hedge trimmers.

Another game that has been off the radar until recently was Sins of a Solar Empire. With a small budget, it has already sold about 200,000 copies in the first month of release. It's the highest rated PC game of 2008 and probably the best selling 2008 PC title. Neither of these titles have CD copy protection.

And yet we don't get nearly the attention of other PC games. Lack of marketing on our part? We bang on the doors for coverage as next as the next shop. Lack of advertising? Open up your favorite PC game publication for the past few months and take note of all the 2 page spreads for Sins of a Solar Empire. So we certainly try.

But we still don't get the editorial buzz that some of the big name titles do because our genre isn't considered as "cool" as other genres. Imagine what our sales would be if our games had gotten game magazine covers and just massive editorial coverage like some of the big name games get. I don't want to suggest we get treated poorly by game magazine and web sites (not just because I fear them -- which I do), we got good preview coverage on Sins, just not the same level as one of the "mega" titles would get. Hard core gamers have different tastes in games than the mainstream PC gaming market of game buyers. Remember Roller Coaster Tycoon? Heck, how much buzz does The Sims get in terms of editorial when compared to its popularity. Those things just aren't that cool to the hard core gaming crowd that everything seems geared toward despite the fact that they're not the ones buying most of the games.

I won't even mention some of the big name PC titles that GalCiv and Sins have outsold. There's plenty of PC games that have gotten dedicated covers that haven't sold as well. So why is that?

Our games sell well for three reasons. First, they're good games which is a pre-requisite. But there's lots of great games that don't sell well.

The other two reasons are:

* Our games work on a very wide variety of hardware configurations.
* Our games target genres with the largest customer bases per cost to produce for.


We also don't make games targeting the Chinese market

When you make a game for a target market, you have to look at how many people will actually buy your game combined with how much it will cost to make a game for that target market. What good is a large number of users if they're not going to buy your game? And what good is a market where the minimal commitment to make a game for it is $10 million if the target audience isn't likely to pay for the game?

If the target demographic for your game is full of pirates who won't buy your game, then why support them? That's one of the things I have a hard time understanding. It's irrelevant how many people will play your game (if you're in the business of selling games that is). It's only relevant how many people are likely to buy your game.

Stardock doesn't make games targeting the Chinese market. If we spent $10 million on a PC game explicitly for the Chinese market and we lost our shirts, would you really feel that much sympathy for us? Or would you think "Duh."


You need a machine how fast?

Anyone who keeps track of how many PCs the "Gamer PC" vendors sell each year could tell you that it's insane to develop a game explicitly for hard core gamers. Insane. I think people would be shocked to find out how few hard core gamers there really are out there. This data is available. The number of high end graphics cards sold each year isn't a trade secret (in some cases you may have to get an NDA but if you're a partner you can find out). So why are companies making games that require them to sell to 15% of a given market to be profitable? In what other market do companies do that? In other software markets, getting 1% of the target market is considered good. If you need to sell 500,000 of your game to break even and your game requires Pixel Shader 3 to not look like crap or play like crap, do you you really think that there are 50 MILLION PC users with Pixel Shader 3 capable machines who a) play games and b) will actually buy your game if a pirated version is available?

In our case, we make games that target the widest possible audience as long as as we can still deliver the gaming experience we set out to. Anyone who's looked at the graphics in Sins of a Solar Empire would, I think, agree that the graphics are pretty phenomenal (particularly space battles). But could they be even fancier? Sure. But only if we degraded the gaming experience for the largest chunk of people who buy games.


The problem with blaming piracy

I don't want anyone to walk away from this article thinking I am poo-pooing the effect of piracy. I'm not. I definitely feel for game developers who want to make kick ass PC games who see their efforts diminished by a bunch of greedy pirates. I just don't count pirates in the first place. If you're a pirate, you don't get a vote on what gets made -- or you shouldn't if the company in question is trying to make a profit.

The reason why we don't put CD copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count. We know our customers could pirate our games if they want but choose to support our efforts. So we return the favor - we make the games they want and deliver them how they want it. This is also known as operating like every other industry outside the PC game industry.

One of the jokes I've seen in the desktop enhancement market is how "ugly" WindowBlinds skins are (though there are plenty of awesome ones too). But the thing is, the people who buy WindowBlinds tend to like a different style of skin than the people who would never buy it in the first place. Natural selection, so to speak, over many years has created a number of styles that seem to be unique to people who actually buy WindowBlinds. That's the problem with piracy. What gets made targets people who buy it, not the people who would never buy it in the first place. When someone complains about "fat borders" on some popular WindowBlinds skin my question is always "Would you buy WindowBlinds even if there was a perfect skin for you?" and the answer is inevitably "Probably not". That's how it works in every market -- the people who buy stuff call the shots. Only in the PC game market are the people who pirate stuff still getting the overwhelming percentage of development resources and editorial support.

When you blame piracy for disappointing sales, you tend to tar the entire market with a broad brush. Piracy isn't evenly distributed in the PC gaming market. And there are far more effective ways of getting people who might buy your product to buy it without inconveniencing them.

Blaming piracy is easy. But it hides other underlying causes. When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue.

In the end, the pirates hurt themselves. PC game developers will either slowly migrate to making games that cater to the people who buy PC games or they'll move to platforms where people are more inclined to buy games.

In the meantime, if you want to make profitable PC games, I'd recommend focusing more effort on satisfying the people willing to spend money on your product and less effort on making what others perceive as hot. But then again, I don't romanticize PC game development. I just want to play cool games and make a profit on games that I work on.

Brianna

Brianna

Insane & Inhumane

Join Date: Feb 2006

Awesome read.

I agree that Crysis was an utter fail, firstly the game isn't that great, and secondly it's requirements are beyond what we have today.

Guild Wars can run on 5 year old PC's, now that is truly awesome, but it still looks beautiful on new PC's as well, good trade? Indeed Imo.

The article itself made out some really good points, and honestly I've never found pirating things to be worth while for me, because if I don't like it enough to buy it in the first place, then it wasn't ever even worth my time to begin with.

I mean honestly think about it, what game needs movie theater realistic visuals to be good? Look at Call of Duty 4, that game is amazing. And one single 8800 GPU solution can run it at max settings with X4 AA with 80 FPS, and 8600 (Mid range) cards for much cheaper can basically do just the same.

Now for Crysis you need Two 8800+ GPU solutions to run it on high settings with X4 AA, without AA you get jagged edges and it makes the game look like crap. So why must we spend 1000$ + on two video cards to run this game? Oh not to mention a power supply that can power that, easily 150$+, oh yeah not to mention an SLI Motherboard, easily 250$+, oh yeah not to mention a CPU which won't bottle neck all of that, 200$+, see my point? It's utterly retarded. How many people honestly are going to spend THAT much money to play Crysis? ...

Also games like Guild Wars prove that you don't need certain elements to have a successful game, sure we don't have jumping, sure there isn't as much content as other big name MMO's, sure we don't have a subscription business model, but it was a success regardless.

Same with Call of Duty 4, sure it doesn't have cars that you can drive, sure you can't do much but shoot. But so? it was a success, didn't need cars like Crysis, didn't need Airplanes like battlefield, this just proves that you can leave these ''Cool'' elements out and still have a whoop-ass game.

EDIT: Yeah just figured this probably doesn't belong in Riverside, something like OT would be better.

StormDragonZ

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna
I agree that Crysis was an utter fail, firstly the game isn't that great, and secondly it's requirements are beyond what we have today.
Another agree from me, especially about the requirements on it.

dragguslayer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2007

Finland

Guardians Of The Midnight Sky[Star]

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna
Guild Wars can run on 5 year old PC's, now that is truly awesome, but it still looks beautiful on new PC's as well, good trade? Indeed Imo.
yeah, its cause it does that it has better details on only your character, and less on every other person, which makes it a bit lighter too instead of having lots of details on every person....

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Guild Wars does an excellent job at working on mid-range PCs, which accounts for a large part of its success, and for the failures of games like Crysis.
Poor argument... Crysis sold well over time. And it's good someone pushes forward hardware, or we'd all be playing 4-color CGA games on computers with 640k ram... and I don't even want to imagine the internet on that...

Surena

Surena

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2007

N/Me

Crysis actually already sold over a million copies, there is an interest in that game.

Comparing Crysis technical capabilities to Guild Wars/Call of Duty 4 (which is limited in dimensions, very narrow movement freedom, has bad physics etc.) is a great joke and proves how low people's understanding is. Let's hope the GT200 ends the endless whining. Crysis is not badly programmed, only a very tough move on the PC market. Kudos to Crytek.

Brianna

Brianna

Insane & Inhumane

Join Date: Feb 2006

It doesn't matter. Look at all the other games that have good physics, Crysis is the only game on the face of this earth that has such requirements, and it's not as great as it's blown up to be.

There are so many games that have good physics and are better than Crysis, and doesn't require super high end graphics cards to get the same ''Wow!" effect. Like I said Crysis is beyond what normal computers can handle these days. Though as time goes by that situation seems to get better - but the game gets older.

Also due to a lot of reading I have noticed that more people run Crysis on systems that aren't really spec'd high enough to get the full capabilities out of the game, they still get some lag, etc. These people aren't getting their full money's worth out of the game, because if they try to make it look as pretty as other games, it just lags them to no existence.

Crysis does have some good graphics no doubt though, I just wish it was more realistic for everyone to see it's full potential.

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surena
Crysis actually already sold over a million copies, there is an interest in that game.

Comparing Crysis technical capabilities to Guild Wars/Call of Duty 4 (which is limited in dimensions, very narrow movement freedom, has bad physics etc.) is a great joke and proves how low people's understanding is. Let's hope the GT200 ends the endless whining. Crysis is not badly programmed, only a very tough move on the PC market. Kudos to Crytek.
Where are you getting those numbers? As of December 17th, they sold a little over 80,000 unique copies, so I'd be somewhat surprised if it did sell that well.

Anyway, the point is that designing bleeding-edge "cool" games just isn't a good way to make money, a moderately advanced game that appeals to the correct market will go a lot further. Stuff like The Sims, WoW, and Sins of a Solar Empire have sold far better. All 3 of those titles are certainly more advanced than games 5 years ago, but they simply don't push things as far as humanly possible.

Vazze

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

Saying that a game is utter fail just because it did not sell well is pretty dumb. You should thank the developers every time you (can afford to) play a game that has better than average quality (probably also running on better than average rig). Instead what are you doing? Praising the average for its financial success.
As for the original post, comparing the desktop enhancement market to the gaming market is BIG FAIL.

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
Comparing Crysis technical capabilities to Guild Wars/Call of Duty 4 (which is limited in dimensions, very narrow movement freedom, has bad physics etc.)
In business, e-peen doesn't go very far. Cash in hand counts.

And there's something interesting about computer industry - "Never in the history of personal computing has technically superior product succeeded commercially!".

If you have a technologically superior product, you're doomed to fail commercially, while others will capitalize on your failure. This is why every sane business today is avoiding invention, innovation and risk, preferring only proven solutions.

This is the harsh reality of software (any area) industry.

Quote:
is a great joke and proves how low people's understanding is.
People understand what good games are. They aren't impressed by shinies and trinkets of latest greatest engines. They want playable games.

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

PC gaming is a business like any other, businesses exist to make money. Game that don't make money are, by definition, failures. Devs have to pay the rent too.

Now, there's certainly room for cult classics or lower-budget games with lower sales, but the point remains - if you aren't making money, you're useless. What's especially bizarre about the PC gaming industry is the big sellers are not the most hyped, revered, or talked about. Instead, people get all excited about the next Doom - and then don't buy it.

To be fair to the folks at Crytek and the makers of UT3, they stand to make a good sum of money from licensing their engine, the game is essentially a big demo.

However, if you actually want to make money from people playing your game, accessibility is the way to go. This is the biggest reason why Guild Wars has done so well - it'll run on damn near anything, and the pricing structure is really attractive to a good chunk of customers.

Anyway, this thread seems to be ignoring the most applicable piece to Guild Wars - is there any reason to support the Chinese market?

ischuros

ischuros

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

Ireland

N/Me

I can't tell you how many times I've seen some game in a magazine which I got all over excited for, and then ended up not buying. The truth is that the only reason I picked up Guild Wars was becuase I didn't have a credit card to pay for WoW subscriptions.

But that dosn't have much to do with the OT. The top three selling PC games in the world are ranked 1. Sims 2. Sims 2 3. Starcraft. Nearly every computer can play those games, and where are all your UT3's and such like. Crysis was a minor success, but it was merely a mediocre game, nothing special. At most it was a tech demo. I played it, didn't buy it though (no, I didn't pirate it, played it a gaming centre). Sure the graphics were nice, very nice, but the gameplay, well, Half Life, original, let alone 2, is better. And I can play those easily, even on my old system (7500GT 1.5 GB Ram 2.8 Ghz:P). It's good that the PC as a platform is been tested to it's limits, but, what you've got to understand is that there are a hell of a lot more mid range systems, then high end, even among 'hard core' gamers, just ask around. The image that we all have dual sli 8800GT's is most likely because of those that have them want to remind everyone of the fact (e-peen) and those who don't stay quiet.

What I'm really getting at is this:

-Graphics are nice, but not everything
-Gameplay matters more
-It is easier to market something for the mid range systems, as well as been cheaper and easier to make
-There are alot more mid range than high range systems out there.

All of this dosn't mean that I don't want one. For my eighteenth I have my eyes on quite a pretty rig (why are they talked of as if they are 18-wheeled trucks?). Still I'd rather play Thief 1 than Splinter Cell Double Agent, because, I can stand the graphics in Thief (maybe 3 would be best :P), and it's a better game than whatever Tom Clancey has pimped his name out to recently.

Surena

Surena

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2007

N/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Where are you getting those numbers? As of December 17th, they sold a little over 80,000 unique copies, so I'd be somewhat surprised if it did sell that well.
Look further

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by ischuros
and where are all your UT3's and such like.
Just to understand something - Unreal is an engine, and primary development focus. From time to time, they develop a technology demo (titles made by Epic Games, such as Unreal Tournament).

But the meat of the engine lies in the titles that were developed with it. So Unreal engine cannot be compared to titles directly, since UT3 is never expected or required to be a major performer - primary focus of Epic Games is development and support of engine technology.

JeniM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

W/E

Crysis was dull!

The graphics were very WOW'ing, everything was shiny and looked very shiny. If you ask me though they past the limit on how shiny to make a game, it was just OTT if you ask me.

Yes, amazing graphics and a unique gameplay twist (suit powers). The multiplayer was as dull as 90% of FPS out there and the SP was good for the first sections (fighting humans), but went downhill fast when the aliens arrived.

Hate to say it but Crysis has been "Played it, Trade it"'ed and GW's is still on my shelf even if the graphics of GW's don't quite push back boundries, at least it has good gameplay. Something Crysis lacked


Sins of a Solar Empire is a great game, definatly gets my vote btw (just saw where that artical came from)

arsie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2007

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Anyway, this thread seems to be ignoring the most applicable piece to Guild Wars - is there any reason to support the Chinese market?
For online games, probably lots of reasons. It is one of the biggest paying market for online games. Of course, it can be much bigger if you count in the non-paying market as well.

Korean-style micro-payment business models thrives in China. The economics are just completely different in lower-income countries. People just cannot afford to shell out US$30 at a go, but they can continually pay US$0.50 well exceeding 60 times.

Think of it as installment payment for stuff, instead of full payment. The poorer guy paying in installments ends up paying much more, but its the only way he can afford it. The richer guy actually pays less.

A huge chunk of WoW players are in China, sure most of them are Chinese farmers, but if WoW registers them as an account, that means they are paying Blizzard's subscription fees.

Burst Cancel

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

I've thought about these topics on-and-off for several years. I'm working tomorrow so I don't have time for the essay-length post I'd like to write, so here's some thoughts in bullet form:

- I think it's highly unfortunate that game development needs to be pursued like a business in order to survive. Games that are developed "for the masses" will ultimately sell better, but you need people to push the envelope (on all fronts, not just graphics) to keep the industry vibrant. In the end, small, innovative studios are better for the industry than tried-and-true recyclers like EA (which has incidentally destroyed just about every franchise it has purchased).
- It's hard to make a genuinely good game that also sells well - these games need to have "something for everyone". Games made expressely for the casual market will be shallow, mindless fun. After all, casual gamers don't care about mechanics, don't care about improving at the game, and generally don't know anything about their hardware. Games made expressely for the hardcore crowd will be impenetrable to anyone else - ridiculous learning curves, "I have a second job"-style time investment, and only playable on the most pimped-out custom rigs. The happy middle ground is made up of games like - you guessed it - Starcraft. Games that casual players can screw around with that also retain tons of technical headroom to accomodate tournament-level players as well. Many of the better FPS and fighting games also fall into this category. RPGs rarely do (the reason being, it's easier to make good, successful games when there's a competitive aspect to dynamically drive hardcore play - a topic that could warrant it's own essay, frankly).
- If you look at GW, PvP never really took off the way Anet probably wanted it to, because GW PvP is too technical for the casual player. Nevermind top-level GvG play, the bar for entry is fairly high if you want to do anything other than RA, and the whole "finding a guild/group/team" is only a part of the problem (as much as newbies profess otherwise). But as I said above, and as I've said in other threads, you can't promote game quality by catering to the lowest common denominator; ultimately, I think keeping GW PvP at a high level was more important to the game's overall quality than trying to break it out of its elite clubhouse. It's especially true because Anet can use GW PvE to pay the bills - as long as you keep PvE simple enough (both in terms of difficulty and technical complexity) to keep the casual players coming, it won't matter if PvP remains largely out of reach.

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

Unfortunately, that's the way all the arts work. Danielle Steele is the best selling author, Michael Bay is a big moneymaking director, Britney Spears tops the charts, and the Sims have outsold every other video game by tenfold. (The Sims Franchise has sold 170 million copies altogether, the nearest competitor, Lineage 2, has sold 14 million). However, it's somewhat worse in the PC gaming industry, as the folks like us who prefer fancier, competitive games tend to pirate stuff, making us nonexistent as a market.

I'd imagine the golden days of video games catering to the hardcore market are drawing to a close, as there just isn't the money for it. I imagine things will become more like the other arts, where the good stuff is low-budget and not widely publicized. Of course, the best way to prevent this is by actually buying your games, instead of pirating. Money makes the world go round.

Barbie

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2008

Qu??bec

W/

Something I learned from Guild Wars is that a lot of people are willing to pay fortunes for good-looking pixels. I think this is Crysis' case.

gone

Guest

Join Date: Jan 2007

the question is;

who is pirating who?

seut

seut

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Europa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Anyway, this thread seems to be ignoring the most applicable piece to Guild Wars - is there any reason to support the Chinese market?
for GuildWars? not anymore...

Quote:
After much petitioning Guild Wars China will be closed

* Registration stop on March 17th
* Server terminate on March 31st
* Official website close on March 31st

It is unknown whether or not the data will be saved.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=475551

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbie
Something I learned from Guild Wars is that a lot of people are willing to pay fortunes for good-looking pixels. I think this is Crysis' case.
Well, they might also want it to be playable...

Quote:
Originally Posted by seut
Yeah, that's quite a huge bummer : (

Creeping Carl

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

I don't care what anyone else here says, Crysis was a well made and fun game. While GW might have more "replayability" (in the form of grind), Crysis was a far better gaming experience for me, far more immersive with far more freedom of movement. Yes, they're different games yet that didnt prevent people from bashing Crysis with or without comparisions to GW in this thread. Both are good games and both being good for differing reasons.

I agree that the technical requirements were insane, but I could see why when I played the game. I have to wonder about the guy who said it looked like "WoW", did he actually play the game?

And to say that a game MUST have been a failure and MUST have been a bad game because it didnt sell well is jumping to conclusions. We all know that in every medium, there are great quality shows, movies, music, etc etc that don't sell well while crap does.

Burst Cancel

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

While I don't necessarily disagree with your points, starting your argument with:

Quote:
I don't care what anyone else here says
makes you sound like a whiny sack of snot. Just saying.

As for Crysis, you'll never get anywhere arguing whether it was good/bad - some people are going to enjoy it, others won't. Unless somebody actually bothers to set forth a reasoned argument on the merits, the 'debate' is just treading water. What's funny though, is that it's largely irrelevant whether Crysis was a good game or not, because the number of people who can even run it is too insignificant to matter in any practical sense.

Which, of course, is one of the key issues being discussed.

bamm bamm bamm

bamm bamm bamm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Pretty much agreed with what people are saying here. It's why developers are starting to complain about the quality of Intel's on board chips, because it's Intel who really owns the graphics market, and therefore Intel who sets the graphics benchmark for the masses.

Nevin

Nevin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna
Awesome read.

I agree that Crysis was an utter fail, firstly the game isn't that great, and secondly it's requirements are beyond what we have today.
Not quite, utter means absolute and Crysis was not an absolute fail. Theres still hardcore gamers in the market, and personally I enjoyed running Crysis on the closest to max settings I could run it on, it looked amazing; and the solid sandbox gameplay was still there. I honestly feel there won't be another FPS that relies so lightly on prescripted encounters as good as Crysis until well... the next release by the company. I doubt Ubisoft will know how to keep the torch going on Farcry 2.

Tarun

Tarun

Technician's Corner Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2006

The TARDIS

http://www.lunarsoft.net/ http://forums.lunarsoft.net/

Quote:
Originally Posted by seut
No more China, which means fewer bots and the better part for players:

Pandas and other pets that were changed/removed because of China and their laws can now be readded to the game!

-Loki-

-Loki-

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevin
I doubt Ubisoft will know how to keep the torch going on Farcry 2.
It's not like being better than FarCry is going to be hard. FarCry sucked.

BlackSephir

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

Maybe Crysis wasn't an epic fail, but it wasn't super awesome next-gen fpp either as they advertised it to be. So yeah, they failed. It wouldn't be a problem if they just said "hey guys, we have a nice, fun fps for you, enjoy it".

And on the piracy... while I hated piracy some time ago, it doesn't bother me as much now. I mean- how the hell are players supposed to test games, when there are less and less playable demos? It's cool with GW and MMORPGs- there are trials but somebody is out of their frikkin mind if they think I'll give my money for something We-don't-know-what-it-does. Who am I supposed to trust? Idiotic 'profeshunal' game journalists, who don't even see the difference between real-time-with-pause and turn-based system? Advertisments? Lawl!
Game devs "this is awesome, buy this, you won't regret it!!" ?
Give me a break.

-Loki-

-Loki-

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
And on the piracy... while I hated piracy some time ago, it doesn't bother me as much now. I mean- how the hell are players supposed to test games, when there are less and less playable demos?
Oh the PC games I've bought, there have been demos. This lack of demos people cite as an excuse to pirate games is usually just laziness on their part of actually go find a download for the demo.

seut

seut

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Europa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarun
No more China, which means fewer bots and the better part for players:
Pandas and other pets that were changed/removed because of China and their laws can now be readded to the game!
The server run by The9 for continental China was completely separate from our network of servers. There will be no change in the number of bots on our turf.

Regarding the panda/crane problem: as far as i know, Hong Kong is still part of our network of GW servers and Anet/NCSoft still has to observe chinese law.

Burst Cancel

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
And on the piracy... while I hated piracy some time ago, it doesn't bother me as much now. I mean- how the hell are players supposed to test games, when there are less and less playable demos? It's cool with GW and MMORPGs- there are trials but somebody is out of their frikkin mind if they think I'll give my money for something We-don't-know-what-it-does. Who am I supposed to trust? Idiotic 'profeshunal' game journalists, who don't even see the difference between real-time-with-pause and turn-based system? Advertisments? Lawl!
Game devs "this is awesome, buy this, you won't regret it!!" ?
Give me a break.
I see this argument a lot, and it is absolutely without merit. "Try before you buy" is shareware, not piracy. People who pirate games do so because they want something without having to pay for it. You can dress it up however you like, but I don't hear about crowds of people going out and buying the games they've already downloaded. There are, of course, the honest few, but they are without a doubt an insignificant minority of the larger pirate pool.

If a game doesn't have a demo, you take a chance - either you buy it without trying, or you don't buy it at all. Nobody is compelling you to play the game, and not having a demo doesn't give people free-reign on five-finger discounts.

Not many people have any sympathy for heavy-handed content managers like the RIAA/MPAA, and I'm certainly not one of those people, but I still agree with their position that the entire concept of "Intellectual Property" seems alien to people in the modern era. The fact that most people don't seem to find anything particularly wrong about piracy is rather telling - especially when people aren't even afraid to admit to illegal downloading in public.

JeniM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
The fact that most people don't seem to find anything particularly wrong about piracy is rather telling - especially when people aren't even afraid to admit to illegal downloading in public.
I've often been sat on a bus or been walking through town and a couple of people will be sat/walking near to me talking, rather loudly, about illeagle downloading. I find it amazing people yell it out in the street

BlackSephir

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Loki-
Oh the PC games I've bought, there have been demos. This lack of demos people cite as an excuse to pirate games is usually just laziness on their part of actually go find a download for the demo.
Yeah, now go and find me a demo of the most hyped game in the history of time- Oblivion.
Oooh, can't? Well, too bad. But I can find on youtube AMAZING vids from oblivion, with its amazing radiant AI. Sucks it turned out to be pure PR BS.

Well, then, how about Neverwinter Nights 2 demo? Shoot! The Witcher? Shoot!
There were demos of games. But "were" is important word here. Really.
Quote:
If a game doesn't have a demo, you take a chance - either you buy it without trying, or you don't buy it at all. Nobody is compelling you to play the game
Oh, sure, but it's not the right way to do bsns. "Believe our bs, or f off".

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

You really don't need a demo to know whether you'll like a game or not. It's not as if games these days are so innovative that you're going to be completely surprised by what you pick up.

As for piracy, it seems that whenever a topic like this shows up, people come out of the woodwork proclaiming that they would never pirate a thing. Some of them may be telling the truth, but I really doubt most are. I used to manage the internet connection for a dorm, and was the guy that had to pick up the phone for MPAA complaints. Almost everyone is pirating stuff. The particulars and the excuses may vary, but they're all doing it. The only ones who aren't don't use their computers for more than word processing. It's just a fact of the business.

Part of the problem is certainly with content providers. Before the latest writer's strike, I downloaded almost every show I wanted to watch, rather than deal with my tiny tv and its crappy reception. Thankfully, the networks have now come around and fixed this, but back then, it just wasn't worth 4 bucks per show to me to watch free television.

However, the root of it is that people want stuff as cheaply and conveniently as possible. Piracy is always cheaper, and often distributes a superior product. Companies are beginning to make progress here with digital downloads through services like Steam, but the "screw those greedy customers" ideal still exists in a lot of big companies.

-Loki-

-Loki-

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Yeah, now go and find me a demo of the most hyped game in the history of time- Oblivion.
Oooh, can't? Well, too bad. But I can find on youtube AMAZING vids from oblivion, with its amazing radiant AI. Sucks it turned out to be pure PR BS.

Well, then, how about Neverwinter Nights 2 demo? Shoot! The Witcher? Shoot!
There were demos of games. But "were" is important word here. Really.
Reread what I said. I haven't bought any of those. However, most high profile games do have demos. Not all, obviously, but most do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Oh, sure, but it's not the right way to do bsns. "Believe our bs, or f off".
Demo's very rarely give you much of an idea of the entire game. They are designed to get you interested, not show you everything. So by your retarded logic here, demo's wouldn't do you much good anyway. But if trying to justify theft makes you feel better, go for it.

Splitisoda

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

STALKER!

Not in One

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Loki-
Reread what I said. I haven't bought any of those. However, most high profile games do have demos. Not all, obviously, but most do.
Not all, thats the point. If you say one game isn't worthy of a demo, your wrong . I've seen people rate a game REALLY low and when i play it its a heck load of fun. If a game doesn't have a demo, not lots of people will be willing to buy it, seeing as about 1/2 will want to return, or Ebay the BS game.

Quote:
Demo's very rarely give you much of an idea of the entire game. They are designed to get you interested, not show you everything. So by your retarded logic here, demo's wouldn't do you much good anyway. But if trying to justify theft makes you feel better, go for it.
If GW didn't have a demo, would people buy it? If WoW didn't have a trial, would people buy it? Look at the games that DON'T have demos, they're sails are pretty much LACKING in comparison to games that DO have demos. Only thing that I see that isn't like that is Orange Box- TF2, and I got orange box cause of HL2 and its mods. Which HL2 had a demo also.

CE Devilman

CE Devilman

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

hell

Do U Trust Anet

N/Mo

torrent site is smallkid stuff...bbs and password ftp is the big deal

"Is it about business or glory"....the web is a sick place...I got a sick mind so I understand the web.

CD copy protection....is a big joke.
it take any warz fanboy 30 sec to find a webpage..."how to byepass blowfish 664 bit " page

In the end, the pirates hurt themselves.....not...the dont care or move on

high end graphics cards sold ....Moore's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page)
so most hardcore players wait ½ year and pay 1/4 of the price on a card.
"Gamer PC"....U build U pc...shop a pc....ew, that’s necrofilia

"satisfying the people"....yep U got it right...piss me of and I got the web.

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

To make a subtle point, piracy isn't stealing, it's copyright violation. There's a pretty significant difference between the two. That doesn't mean it's legal or moral, it just means it isn't the same thing as walking into a store and stealing it, both in a moral sense and in the eyes of the law.

To continue with what I was saying before, the reason piracy is largely irrelevant to Guild Wars is that it's inconvenient in the extreme to set up a pirate server, not to mention that you'll be getting a lower quality product. It's worth the 50 bucks not to have make a pirate server and deal with the game updates.

CE Devilman

CE Devilman

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

hell

Do U Trust Anet

N/Mo

these real-world comparisons.....

a 24/7 pirate server..get real...10 sec to track....2 uhr to shot down....8 uhr U got the : bend over and smil.