The hidden grind: why grind-->benefits is bad for PvE
NecroticChanter
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
Remember when you load into HA, wanting to experience how fun it is? Three hours later, you're still there, because everyone is spamming "LF r5+ monk" or "LF r9+ ele."
That sucked.
The hero title is one of the biggest symbols of grind (with a little skill), and Anet knows it already killed entry to higher end PvP. It turned players who won't accept someone of a lower rank into "elitist PvPers."
So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills? Are they wanting to turn those same people who cried about "elitist PvPers" into hypocrites when they go out and advertise "LF r8+ ursan" or "LF r3+ SY"? Because that's what happened. One minute, Bob Random posts in Riverside crying about how elitist PvPers are because they won't accept him into their HA groups since he's only rank 2. The next, he goes into DoA and rejects r7 norns because his group is a r8+ ursan group.
If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it. You simply don't go out advertising that this is a grind-free game, and when a new player buys it, they find they can't play a large portion of the end-game because their lack of grinding makes it impossible for them to find groups. Sure they can join good guilds running balanced builds, but how likely is that given a very casual player? The direction GW (and GW2) is changing into is one that'll attract more players in general, but with their goal changes, they should also change their advertising. Why the hell would you care? Ur in Dark Alley..one of the best guilds in the meta right now...GvG at least.
That sucked.
The hero title is one of the biggest symbols of grind (with a little skill), and Anet knows it already killed entry to higher end PvP. It turned players who won't accept someone of a lower rank into "elitist PvPers."
So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills? Are they wanting to turn those same people who cried about "elitist PvPers" into hypocrites when they go out and advertise "LF r8+ ursan" or "LF r3+ SY"? Because that's what happened. One minute, Bob Random posts in Riverside crying about how elitist PvPers are because they won't accept him into their HA groups since he's only rank 2. The next, he goes into DoA and rejects r7 norns because his group is a r8+ ursan group.
If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it. You simply don't go out advertising that this is a grind-free game, and when a new player buys it, they find they can't play a large portion of the end-game because their lack of grinding makes it impossible for them to find groups. Sure they can join good guilds running balanced builds, but how likely is that given a very casual player? The direction GW (and GW2) is changing into is one that'll attract more players in general, but with their goal changes, they should also change their advertising. Why the hell would you care? Ur in Dark Alley..one of the best guilds in the meta right now...GvG at least.
MasterSasori
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Originally Posted by NecroticChanter
Why the hell would you care? Ur in Dark Alley..one of the best guilds in the meta right now...GvG at least.
Probably because he still gives a damn about the game and the people in it. It's not a difficult concept.
Being in a great GvG guild has nothing to do with caring/not caring.
Being in a great GvG guild has nothing to do with caring/not caring.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by NecroticChanter
Why the hell would you care? Ur in Dark Alley..one of the best guilds in the meta right now...GvG at least.
Divine is a pro PvEr. He has gold walking amongst mortals. He's rly gud.
Njaiguni Blaze
In GW you choose to grind. You choose to get fancy stuff, so you choose to grind. You choose to get titles maxed, so you choose to grind. There is no reason for you to grind to normally play the game.
And to comment on the whole rank thing: get a guild.
Myself I have just recently turned r5 (hero). I don't even think of joining pugs. Simple reason: sway. It was a nuisance at first to me, but people have helped me understand why pugs run it. Everyone knows what they're doing, vent is hardly needed, not much effort is need to be put in the team. This may sound "lazy" or "unskilled" or whatever, but it makes perfect sense. Try and put up balanced or a hexpressure with a pug. Teamplay isn't there because the team has not been playing with one another (enough), ragequitters after 2 losses, etc etc. You don't need titles to get into a DoA or UW clearance, you don't need titles to get into Halls. You need friends a.k.a. guildies.
And to comment on the whole rank thing: get a guild.
Myself I have just recently turned r5 (hero). I don't even think of joining pugs. Simple reason: sway. It was a nuisance at first to me, but people have helped me understand why pugs run it. Everyone knows what they're doing, vent is hardly needed, not much effort is need to be put in the team. This may sound "lazy" or "unskilled" or whatever, but it makes perfect sense. Try and put up balanced or a hexpressure with a pug. Teamplay isn't there because the team has not been playing with one another (enough), ragequitters after 2 losses, etc etc. You don't need titles to get into a DoA or UW clearance, you don't need titles to get into Halls. You need friends a.k.a. guildies.
Sab
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Originally Posted by NecroticChanter
Why the hell would you care? Ur in Dark Alley..one of the best guilds in the meta right now...GvG at least.
He's a cape leecher. Speaking of which, wtb dR invite plz pm.
Div
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Originally Posted by Sab
He's a cape leecher. Speaking of which, wtb dR invite plz pm.
Cape leeching ownzzzzzzzz. You need to come so we can PvE yeye? Still in Bite?
Speaking of which, we just had a fun kicking game where we kicked 4 members
Speaking of which, we just had a fun kicking game where we kicked 4 members
BlackSephir
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
In GW you choose to grind. You choose to get fancy stuff, so you choose to grind. You choose to get titles maxed, so you choose to grind.
And you don't see that there's something wrong with it? I want a better looking weapon, so I have to grind?
There's no choice if there's only one option, if you want better looking weapons, you're forced to grind. A choice would be if you could do a) grind b) series of quests.
Where is the choice in a) grind ?
And you don't see that there's something wrong with it? I want a better looking weapon, so I have to grind?
There's no choice if there's only one option, if you want better looking weapons, you're forced to grind. A choice would be if you could do a) grind b) series of quests.
Where is the choice in a) grind ?
Njaiguni Blaze
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
There is no reason for you to grind to normally play the game.
Don't quote me out of context. I haven't said anything about whether grinding is fun, good, bad or whatever. People like it, people don't. They advertised for this game to have no grind to play the game. They still hold on to that. You can roll a PvP and jump right into battle, you can roll a PvE and begin the storyline right away. You don't need a maxed out Ursan title to play the game. You don't need an Elemental Sword of Pwnitude. Also, if these things would just fall in your lap by completing a quest, what's the whole accomplishment behind it? Aren't these things supposed to be special? (Can't wait for people to post with Raptor farming screenshots. Don't, it's an example.)
BlackSephir
And I was talking about this whole "choice", not about whether grind is bad or not. So gg.
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You don't need a maxed
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Yeah, I see you understand the concept of "skill over time", you just chose to ignore it.
And of course I haven't said anything about things falling in your laps. I've said about completing a series of quests, not necessarily easy ones. But it's easier to put shrines and blessings that give you magical points instead of designing original and hard quest.
V: You god damn tard, WHERE did I say that you said that completing a quest was a grind? You compared grind and completing a quest and even then you put grind above completing quests. It's pretty pathetic when it comes from a guy who says "read, comprehend and then post". My work here is done. You're an idiot.
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I've done all of the EoTN quests. No rank 10 anywhere. |
. You get no benefits out of grinding.
Go to GW Wiki, look what titles do and shut up.
Njaiguni Blaze
Read, comprehend and then post. I didn't say completing a quest was a grind.
And saying I ignored the concept of skill over time is a flaw. Fancy weapons and titles don't make you skilled. It's even in the title of this very thread: why grinding for benefits is bad for PvE. You get no benefits out of grinding. It doesn't make you a better player. Tyla
Well titles not making you skilled is obvious, especially with all the crappy gimmicks in TA and HA.
Same goes for PvE (Ursan) in most cases (PuGs), because you are REQUIRED to have rank 10 Ursan. Even if that mission is plain easy, they still use it. I've always understood why people want to PuG for: Making friends for anything and everything, to be a little more talkative (Heck, I see the argument against heroes being this, yet you are required to grind grind grind to max your rep?). And yeah, some people want those fancy weapon skins and titles, because they're there. They also enhance your character on a viewable basis, which is good. It's down to player skill in the end, although that was mainly for PvP, who said it wouldn't be bad to incorperate a little more skill and less predictability in PvE? I would rather PLAY for my sexy weaponskins and all that ect, instead of GRIND.
Njaiguni Blaze
You get no benefit out of titles. Lockpicks, buffs and e-penises get a benefit out of it. That's my point.
Tyla
Lightbringer, Sunspear, GW:EN Rep titles, Alliegance.
They all offer benefit, to PvE skills and some of them give character bonuses depending on where you are or what you're against.
MasterSasori
At least Defender of Ascalon is out of the paws of UBers.
thibault the monk
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
Ye, there's no choice, the only way to do it is by grind. There are no alternatives, other possibilities. There is no choice.
This is false, there are other ways, you can do quests to get the norn rank up, its just extremely inefficient. You could just do all of the dungeons on nm and hm, and all of the quests on nm and hm to get your norn rank at least close to max if not max.
Also it is your choice to want the norn rank, gw doesn't require u to have that and not all groups require you to have that. It is no secret that most people will want it and most people will want high ones, but that is LIFE. There are discriminations everywhere in life, why should a game be any different. Its simple if you do not want to spend the time to get good in order to get into good groups then you dont deserve to be there anyway. Tyla
Notice the word "Most" in your post.
Rarely do I see people asking for below Rank 10. And yeah, people don't want to spend time grinding because they don't like grinding and don't think it's fun. If you're not playing for fun, why are you playing?
BlackSephir
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Originally Posted by thibault the monk
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Bah, I can do the Norn tournament, right? Too bad that after a while you just repeat everything in it... it's like...
OH SHI-! ITS GRIND!
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Please do the math. Maxed rep title in GW:EN is 160k. |
Its simple if you do not want to spend the time
YES! FINALLY! I don't want to gain something by sacrificing my time, I'd rather gain it by proving that I'm a good player, not a pathetic bot that keeps doing the same things over and over.
thibault the monk
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
I've done all of the EoTN quests. No rank 10 anywhere.
Plz do the math, look at the dungeon guides and heros handbooks, 60,000 + 40,000 + 20,000 + 30,000 = 150,000 = max rank. Anet did think before adding those, thats why they did add them to make it so that people who didn't want to do massive grinding for the points don't have to.
Also Tyla, you shouldn't speak for everyone when you say that people don't like grinding, i find it very relaxing to go out and just mindlessly kill stuff, and thats why I actually like to play this game for 3 years now, for the farming. Its a simple matter of preference, some people like it some people dont. If the few grinds are still there then it is quite obvious that most people that play either like the grind or don't mind it, otherwise Anet would lose money from people not buying the game at all or future campaigns and would be forced to take out the grinds. Point is, dont speak for everyone when saying grinding = bad.
Sab
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Originally Posted by thibault the monk
Plz do the math, look at the dungeon guides and heros handbooks, 60,000 + 40,000 + 20,000 + 30,000 = 150,000 = max rank. Anet did think before adding those, thats why they did add them to make it so that people who didn't want to do massive grinding for the points don't have to.
So you should complete every mission and dungeon to get the points you need so you can join PUGs for completing missions and dungeons?
FlamingMetroid
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Originally Posted by thibault the monk
Also Tyla, you shouldn't speak for everyone when you say that people don't like grinding, i find it very relaxing to go out and just mindlessly kill stuff, and thats why I actually like to play this game for 3 years now, for the farming. Its a simple matter of preference, some people like it some people dont. If the few grinds are still there then it is quite obvious that most people that play either like the grind or don't mind it, otherwise Anet would lose money from people not buying the game at all or future campaigns and would be forced to take out the grinds. Point is, dont speak for everyone when saying grinding = bad.
Play WoW, its much more fun if your into grinding. And I don't mean that as an insult, WoW is really fun, but I personally dont play it because of the grind. Guild Wars was a game built away from the standard MMO fair, and therefore away from grinding. In Guild Wars, grinding should = bad. If you play GW for grinding, find a another game, you'll have more fun.
Laylat
The introduction of new quests would dramatically increase the quality of gameplay. In my opinion, the idea of adding Sorrow's Furnace was a great way to getting people to play together instead of running with henchmen--plus the added motivation of getting *decently* good weapons. What was the downside? Only three classes were utilized; therefore only allowing half of the community to play. This meant that casual people relying on one character were *in most cases* left out in the dust.
The run, although easy, required some skill. It was not spamming the same skill over and over. It as easy enough for the casual gamer (provided he's the correct profession) to get in a few runs now and then. The introduction of DoA, in my opinion, was an attempt by ANet to introduce a more challenging experience (more so than Surrow's Furnace). One can argue that even with the title "Holy Lightbringer", DoA was still a tough cookie to crack, requiring more experienced players and more team cooperation. Realising this, it makes no sense to me for disallowing people with the rank "Lightbringer" to be part of a PuG. Since the difference is minor, I ask, why should you be disallowed to play for something as trivial as not having a high enough title? The title, in my opinion, should be of a display (self-satisfaction). Personally, I think it would be better if the title Lightbringer was redescribed as "Lightbringer. You have defeated an X number of Abbadon's servants". Yes, invitation to farming builds, but this gives one a choice. You do not have a choice if you are required to be a certain rank because that rank makes you, say, more resilient or powerful. Of course, this excluded HA. The same applies for the Sunspear title track. It would have been a much better idea to have the track increase upon completing difficult quests; elite quests for max title, perhaps. But, this would not be tied to attributes for PvE skills. Once again, choice. With the release of EotN, we witnessed the wonders of Ursan Blessing (as well as other, in my opinion, overpowered skills). However, this led to a large percentage of the GW community to rely on a single skill, which further brought down the quality of gameplay. Unlike Sorrow's Furnance, even the casual player can go through normal gameplay and reach a decent Norn title track (6 or 7) and join Ursan groups; working his/her way to max title. With a max title, he/she gains access to a variety of elite areas utilizing this skill. I don't mean this to sound like a good thing. It's unhealthy gameplay. In my opinion, the Norn title track would work very well with, 1) self-satisfaction and/or 2) gaining access to elite areas. The latter may be a bad idea to some, but the main point is that the title detaches itself from skills. Personally, I enjoy maxing out titles. I have had help from guildies and PuG's. But a lot of them were done with H&H. I've joined Ursan groups to see what the fuss was about and to see why people thought they were so effective. The point is that maxing out titles gives me a sense of achivement. I do not look at it as gaining access to areas. I spend 90% of my time with H&H. Sadly, this is not what an online game is meant to do, but this is the way it has become. So, if one does not have the "requirements" to join PuGs, he/she can go in one of two directions: grind points untill you can join groups, or learn to work with H&H. The latter for me is more challenging for to the fact that there is some skill and "tense" moments involved. Or just take a break and maybe three months latter, things *might* get better. In the end, people should be more flexible in the skills used by party members. So what if an HB monk doesn't have heal party? So what if a onk uses power drain instead of GoLE (just an example... both are energy mangment skills). Of course, this applies if the isn't an all-powerful skill. Agreed with those who said: titles unattached to skills and/or skill attributes will give them the choice to grind for points or not. Get some new quests, Anet!
MasterSasori
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Originally Posted by thibault the monk
Also Tyla, you shouldn't speak for everyone when you say that people don't like grinding, i find it very relaxing to go out and just mindlessly kill stuff, and thats why I actually like to play this game for 3 years now, for the farming. Its a simple matter of preference, some people like it some people dont. If the few grinds are still there then it is quite obvious that most people that play either like the grind or don't mind it, otherwise Anet would lose money from people not buying the game at all or future campaigns and would be forced to take out the grinds. Point is, dont speak for everyone when saying grinding = bad.
Are you serious .... >.>
Tyla
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Originally Posted by thibault the monk
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You don't need to be on any rX group, you are defending the point of view which blames the elitist people because all you want is having "fun", but if you truly wanted to have "fun" you would only pick a random party and do HA. I ask you why don't you or anybody pick the people with no ranks? Because you want to win, you don’t feel like wasting your time with the newbies, in other words people are also as elitist as the R9+ group, and that is not casual playing.|
Also Tyla, you shouldn't speak for everyone when you say that people don't like grinding, i find it very relaxing to go out and just mindlessly kill stuff, and thats why I actually like to play this game for 3 years now, for the farming. Its a simple matter of preference, some people like it some people dont. If the few grinds are still there then it is quite obvious that most people that play either like the grind or don't mind it, otherwise Anet would lose money from people not buying the game at all or future campaigns and would be forced to take out the grinds. Point is, dont speak for everyone when saying grinding = bad.
Well, I did. People bought this game because it was supposedly a grind free game. Not only that, but a PvP based game. That went down the shit pan with the release of Nightfall, and at the same time, PvP started dying faster, which created a dying playerbase. And yeah, I've looked into things like this. Many of my friends also despise grind for the same reason I do.
Red Apple
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
That sucked. |
I find all the people complaining about it bunch of hypocrites that want to be as "elite" as the guys which are asking for a "rX+" group.
I was there at the beginning of GW where Ha were after Glint, I really enjoyed it really I did, I didn’t feel frustrated by the fact that people wouldn't allow me on the parties, I made one or joined one with newbies and tried the hardest I could healing, I still have a picture of the first Hero point I won. That is the real fun, and I don’t believe that is what you are talking about.
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The hero title is one of the biggest symbols of grind (with a little skill), and Anet knows it already killed entry to higher end PvP. It turned players who won't accept someone of a lower rank into "elitist PvPers."
So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills? Are they wanting to turn those same people who cried about "elitist PvPers" into hypocrites when they go out and advertise "LF r8+ ursan" or "LF r3+ SY"? Because that's what happened. One minute, Bob Random posts in Riverside crying about how elitist PvPers are because they won't accept him into their HA groups since he's only rank 2. The next, he goes into DoA and rejects r7 norns because his group is a r8+ ursan group. Anet didn’t kill PvP, if the ranks were taken out we would be in the same way just this time everyone is angry because most of the people at the party are newbies and /ragequitts every second, and people would still have to look for a HA Guild in order to access it. If Bob really wanted to join a high rank group was because he wanted to be on the major leagues, he was not there for recreation nor casual fun, he wanted to win straight forward into HoH and match the big daddies. He deserves to be trashed, because he is a self proclaimed expert and felt he was way too much for joining newbie parties. You have to admit, HA is not for the casual player that is only there for 1 hr ~5hr, HA is a challenge for the experimented, as well as UW, FoW, and DoA.
The reason they added those titles was to keep people playing, instead of creating GW:4 (which it got canceled because they didn't had enough time for everything they wanted), which people would eat right away, they launched an expansion that would help to expand a bit the lore of Gw and entertain the masses till the release of GW2.
If you remember EoTN is an expansion to all the campaigns which is intended to help players in some way, in other words Blessings, so now Anet has kept players playing, helped them to achieve harder modes of their campaign(s) and also created a small system that would entertain the people for some time HardCoreTitles.
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Originally Posted by Red Apple
I find all the people complaining about it bunch of hypocrites that want to be as "elite" as the guys which are asking for a "rX+" group.... That is the real fun, and I don’t believe that is what you are talking about.
So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills? Are they wanting to turn those same people who cried about "elitist PvPers" into hypocrites when they go out and advertise "LF r8+ ursan" or "LF r3+ SY"? Because that's what happened. One minute, Bob Random posts in Riverside crying about how elitist PvPers are because they won't accept him into their HA groups since he's only rank 2. The next, he goes into DoA and rejects r7 norns because his group is a r8+ ursan group. Anet didn’t kill PvP, if the ranks were taken out we would be in the same way just this time everyone is angry because most of the people at the party are newbies and /ragequitts every second, and people would still have to look for a HA Guild in order to access it. If Bob really wanted to join a high rank group was because he wanted to be on the major leagues, he was not there for recreation nor casual fun, he wanted to win straight forward into HoH and match the big daddies. He deserves to be trashed, because he is a self proclaimed expert and felt he was way too much for joining newbie parties. You have to admit, HA is not for the casual player that is only there for 1 hr ~5hr, HA is a challenge for the experimented, as well as UW, FoW, and DoA.
The reason they added those titles was to keep people playing, instead of creating GW:4 (which it got canceled because they didn't had enough time for everything they wanted), which people would eat right away, they launched an expansion that would help to expand a bit the lore of Gw and entertain the masses till the release of GW2.
If you remember EoTN is an expansion to all the campaigns which is intended to help players in some way, in other words Blessings, so now Anet has kept players playing, helped them to achieve harder modes of their campaign(s) and also created a small system that would entertain the people for some time HardCoreTitles.
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Back of the Prophecies box, where it clearly states that skill, not time spent in-game matters.|
Originally Posted by holymasamune
If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it. You simply don't go out advertising that this is a grind-free game, and when a new player buys it, they find they can't play a large portion of the end-game because their lack of grinding makes it impossible for them to find groups. Sure they can join good guilds running balanced builds, but how likely is that given a very casual player? The direction GW (and GW2) is changing into is one that'll attract more players in general, but with their goal changes, they should also change their advertising.
Where does Anet states it is not a grind-free game? And if it is a casual player why would he be playing in hardcore areas? Those 3 areas(Uw, FoW, DoA) are designed for the fan and not for the casual player, why would a casual player be angry for not getting rare skin weapons, which they are not in anyway inferior to the common skin weapon.
Playing in hard mode/elite areas means you want to play more, people often find those two not as another challenge but part of the mainstream of the game, so they complain about how hard is to finish it so Anet has to respond. There is where the expansion comes in. There is a moment when the player must turn a bit of dedication in order to get something special on game, and it is not necessary to grind, you could make a farmer, or join a guild, but if even at that people want it more easy then they cannot be helped, those areas, I repeat, are for the fan and in no way they alter the course of the mainstream history or gameplay. What Guild Wars promises is that a character created the August 24 has the same probabilities of beating a character created on August 1. Guild Wars promises that on PvP: that a lvl 20 char with 2,000,000 exp battling a lvl 20 char with 5,000,000 exp is not inferior in any stat-way to the lvl 20 with over 5mil exp. Anet is not turning Guild Wars into WoW, YOU ARE dear reader, you are draining Guild Wars stories and concepts too fast and you still want more and more like it, but you don't want to wait and all we have left are the titles.
Abedeus
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Where does Anet states it is not a grind-free game?
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People think fun=win for most people who HA, you have to do what's most efficient for the teams hence have high rank and/or same build everyone else uses. Casual playing in HA is pretty out of the question unless you're willing to suffer the waiting and endless noob spams at you.|
Anet is not turning Guild Wars into WoW, YOU ARE dear reader, you are draining Guild Wars stories and concepts too fast and you still want more and more like it, but you don't want to wait and all we have left are the titles.
Hmm. Let's see, what's in GW that is in WoW, but shouldn't be... *Killing a lot of mobs to get an item? Check. *Quests ,,kill XX mobs, return for reward''? Check. *Little skill required? Check, but... WoW in high-end areas requires more skill. Don't believe? Remember Leeroy Jenkins? xd *People playing longer have an advantage? Check. *Skill < Time < Money? Check. Did I forget about something?
MasterSasori
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Originally Posted by Red Apple
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Quote: Originally Posted by Red Apple Anet didn’t kill PvP, and OJ Simpson didn't kill his wife.
Quote: Originally Posted by Red Apple if the ranks were taken out we would be in the same way just this time everyone is angry because most of the people at the party are newbies and /ragequitts every second, and people would still have to look for a HA Guild in order to access it. If you can't tell who is "l33t" and "noob," then that solves the problem of getting into groups. Now for rage quitters, not everyone does this and the more difficult to access the skill of players, the less the ratings matter.
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Originally Posted by Red Apple
If Bob really wanted to join a high rank group was because he wanted to be on the major leagues, he was not there for recreation nor casual fun, he wanted to win straight forward into HoH and match the big daddies. He deserves to be trashed, because he is a self proclaimed expert and felt he was way too much for joining newbie parties. You have to admit, HA is not for the casual player that is only there for 1 hr ~5hr, HA is a challenge for the experimented, as well as UW, FoW, and DoA.
But the problem is that not everyone just wants to have a great title, some just want to try different PvP. Quote:
what I meant by that answer was to replay to what holymasamune wrote:
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. Skill>Grind yes experience over gaming hours, you need to play to get titles = grind, title = party, blame the party and the wannabe hardcore rich gamers? Dunno, I just don't think Anet is the only one included in the problem. Grinding come for people that want to "finish" the game easly and quick, everyone wants to do that, but its because there is nothing left on GW that people can enjoy without paying attention like the whole lore and all the interactions at the pve. What generally now find fun is to get rich and have many rare skins and such, thats is why the game is dieing, I blame the people not Anet
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