The hidden grind: why grind-->benefits is bad for PvE
thibault the monk
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Please do the math. Maxed rep title in GW:EN is 160k.
The other 10k comes from finishing the quests the first time which gives huge bonuses well over 10k. Forgot to mention that in my previous post.
Savio
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Originally Posted by JR
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Originally Posted by Shyft The Pyro
Why is it suddenly that GW players need to keep playing GW?
Presumably, people playing longer is linked to overall enjoyment of the game. How exactly the two are related is debatable.
People like grind; that is undisputed. They already have grind in the form of shiny weapons, armors, and titles. That's fine. The issue is "grind-->benefits" as the title states: Kurzick/Luxon, Lightbringer, Sunspear, Norn, Asura, Ebon Vanguard, Deldrimor - gaining advantages through grind is the exact opposite of one of the main mantras of Guild Wars - "skill not time spent." Some players hold this in high regard, and the direction Arenanet is now taking their franchise means that concept won't exist in their games anymore, or will be secondary to other concerns. For a game that was supposed to be revolutionary, it's quite disappointing.
Div
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Originally Posted by JR
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Quote: I don't have SY, my Ursan (which I've used once, and probably never will again) is only rank 4, and I've yet to find a single mission/area that can't easily be cleared with 2 players and 6 heroes, most just with H&H. When using something like "Sabway" it becomes a joke, and that certainly doesn't require any kind of rank. Frankly if you don't have a friends/guildies to play with and help you out I don't know why you still play this game. If you want to brag, then I can too. I've yet to find a single mission/area that can't be easily cleared by myself+heroes+hench as well. What's your point? The problem is that when the casual player whose friends aren't online wants to PUG in places like DoA, UW, or FoW, they are more or less forced to have a high ranked ursan title.
Quote: However, Ursan is still less efficient than regular builds in the hands of good players. My opinions are not as elitist as yours. I am trying to convey why it'll be bad for the general populace, not the top 0.1% of players. Even then, I really question that statement. Afaik, ursan groups can clear FoW faster (or just as fast) than the SMS SY groups, which are both faster than not using any PvE-only skills.
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For those of you comparing this to WoW or 'Korean grind MMOs', I question how many you have played or how far you have got in them. The grind in Guild Wars is absolutely miniscule compared to Lineage, Everquest, Silkroad, WoW or any other comparable titles.
There is no doubt that the grind in GW is much less than in other MMOs. I'm a fan of grind, but it's just disappointing that Anet is turning back on their original promises. Quote:
Not to get too off track, but whats your take on consumables? I have to say an armor does more for a team than four Ursans. No crits make backlining considerably easier even in the hardest areas.
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I think you misunderstand my point. I wasn't bragging, quite the opposite, I was pointing out that I am absolutely nothing special at PvE. I consider myself a pretty casual and average player in that context, yet I am still able to fully enjoy all areas of the game. The grind just gives me options to make it easier/faster.|
Originally Posted by holymasamune
My opinions are not as elitist as yours. I am trying to convey why it'll be bad for the general populace, not the top 0.1% of players. Even then, I really question that statement. Afaik, ursan groups can clear FoW faster (or just as fast) than the SMS SY groups, which are both faster than not using any PvE-only skills.
Not just faster; these groups can shatter HM records for non-PvE only skill times. Used to be, it took hours to do DoA. It felt like a raid. Now, its mindless seed spam for the backline. I feel like a bonder when I monk for groups in there. Which reiterates the overall lack of improved gameplay these titles represent for PvEers or the diehard PvPvEers that play and enjoy both formats of competition and stayed with the game.
If you want to brag, then I can too. I've yet to find a single mission/area that can't be easily cleared by myself+heroes+hench as well. What's your point? The problem is that when the casual player whose friends aren't online wants to PUG in places like DoA, UW, or FoW, they are more or less forced to have a high ranked ursan title.
Players used to think about their builds. In that regard GWP and to a lessor degree GWF and GWNF were like Magic: the Gathering (they should be, Anet claims the card game was part of their inspiration). You Designed and created something in those 8 skills. PvE or PvP, the 64 skills you walked into a zone with determined strategy and effectiveness. Now? Ranks do. Quote:
What's wrong with that? What other incentives are you going to give?
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Regardless, I could well have been wrong about that. As I stated I don't have vast amount of experience with Ursan.
Quote: Originally Posted by holymasamune
There is no doubt that the grind in GW is much less than in other MMOs. I'm a fan of grind, but it's just disappointing that Anet is turning back on their original promises.
The skill over time spent promise? As far as I am concerned that has always been a tagline referring to the PvP side, though you are quite right that it has in the past applied to PvE also.
Shrug. It still begs the question; if you aren't grinding to be more powerful what is the point in grinding?
For example; you don't see people saying 'LF r10+ Whirlind Attack Warrior', because it just doesn't matter that much. It's a nice skill with a decent damage bonus that is very effective in PvE, but it's not so powerful that it becomes a requirement - which is where Savio's comment about necessary grind comes in.
The root of the problem is not with PvE skills being linked to titles, it is with the sheer and obvious imbalance of some particular PvE skills.
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Shrug. It still begs the question; if you aren't grinding to be more powerful what is the point in grinding?
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This goes back to my point about the particularly overpowered PvE skills being the root of your problem.|
Originally Posted by holymasamune
That's a whole new problem that was discussed in another thread.
I think it's the root of the problem you have.
Consumables tie into that as well, namely Armor of Salvation. I don't think many players realize how huge being immune to critical hits and -5 damage reduction is truly worth. Moreso in an Ursan group however compared to an SY bot. Essence of Celerity are huge for Ursan groups as well, Grails of Might do nothing except make Protective Spirit a useless skill and give your HB monks two more Orisons.
Yeah, I was taking consumables into account. The biggest weakness of ursan was defense because of shitty PUG monks. With them, they take no damage anyway, so the only "downside" is gone.Quote:
You raise good points that in order for GW to survive and continue to be played, something has to be given to the players to grind. Obviously what they have done is a great thing for keeping their playerbase.
However, I'm not asking to get rid of grind. I'm just curious to see what would happen if they added say, elite armors upon reaching rank10 in a reputation title (or requiring all 4 gwen rep titles), as opposed to giving people blatantly OP skills that casual players are forced to have in order to PUG. I wouldn't mind little things such as a better salvage percentage or a little extra conditional damage with lightbringer, though in an ideal balanced game that's not preferable either. I just don't want game-breaking skills to be tied to something a player has to grind a significant amount of time for. And to answer your question: before gwen, people still farmed. They farmed for fow armor, better weapons, better minipets. Is it not possible to just make the rewards of grinding shinier weapons and bigger epeen? Why does it have to be game-breaking benefits? Quote: I think this pretty much sums up my argument: Quote:
Well they already have EotN armor that requires certain title ranks. That idea could be expanded on, but I guess they wanted to add more diversity.
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For example; you don't see people saying 'LF r10+ Whirlind Attack Warrior', because it just doesn't matter that much. It's a nice skill with a decent damage bonus that is very effective in PvE, but it's not so powerful that it becomes a requirement - which is where Savio's comment about necessary grind comes in.
The root of the problem is not with PvE skills being linked to titles, it is with the sheer and obvious imbalance of some particular PvE skills.
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Originally Posted by holymasume
And to answer your question: before gwen, people still farmed. They farmed for fow armor, better weapons, better minipets. Is it not possible to just make the rewards of grinding shinier weapons and bigger epeen? Why does it have to be game-breaking benefits?
That was in fact part of my arguement that I left out; that we already have a significant amount of grind for looking pretty. The more grind of that type you introduce into the game the less meaningful it becomes.
If they are going to give you grind on a plate because they can't develop more actual content it may aswell be meaningful, and I think PvE skills fulfill that more effectively than more armor sets. Sadly the few problematic PvE skills have tainted the idea.
A lot of people who play the game these days can not (or will not) allow themselves out of the mindset of only allowing themselves to use the most efficient build possible. This is what leads to people getting mad that the same builds are suggested on this forum over and over and over such as Godmode for Paragon, or MS-DB Assassin builds, or Mind Blast Ele builds etc.. These are suggested because of their effiiciency and because they are one of, if not, the best build for a class to play given a certain scenario or situation. When people begin to use the exact same build with the exact same attributes, this rolls over to things like PvE skills, where players demand other players have a specific rank on a title track, even though there is little difference between most ranks.
It is generally players who enforce the fact that more grind = benefits by only allowing certain ranks into their groups. I can understand why this is beneficial in PvP as "Rank" is probably the best indicator of experience you have if you're playing with people you don't know. As for PvE, it is not necessary, but it only takes a few people to do it to start a trend, a trend which ends up stagnating and being complained about with noone having the will, power, or motivation to do anything about it.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
If they are going to give you grind on a plate because they can't develop more actual content it may aswell be meaningful, and I think PvE skills fulfill that more effectively than more armor sets. Sadly the few problematic PvE skills have tainted the idea.
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While I agree that the amount of grind people feel the need to do is growing, I don't feel that the PvE skills from Eye of the North require grind to be good. I'm struggling to think of a good EotN PvE skill which isn't perfectly useable within the first 1-3 tiers (obtainable from just playing through the game). Bad PvE skills, of course, are still bad despite your rank in their respective title tracks.|
Originally Posted by Sab
People spend thousands of hours of play time and millions of gold to reach r6 KoaBD, even though it has no inherent benefit (not even a gold animal emote). Players don't need any special incentive to grind - they do it for the fun and the e-peen.
What percentage of the population cares about reaching r6 KoaBD?
Avarre
It seems a lot of players don't play GW because it's fun as much as they play it because of grinding. The PvE game's length is pretty much 90% about going for titles - there isn't any depth in the game itself to give replay value for the most part.
Who even pays attention to anything in PvE besides the amount of loot and the time taken to get it? It's so shallow and simple that there's no real thought left. Time - grinding and area completion, replaced thought.
Sab
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Originally Posted by JR
What percentage of the population cares about reaching r6 KoaBD?
KoaBD was just an example, kind of a summary for all the "pointless" grindy titles people achieve with no benefits: Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, Cartographer, LDoA, Survivor, etc. Most players I've played with (even PvPers) have gone out of their way to get these titles, despite there being no real reward.
Cebe
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
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A lot of people who play the game these days can not (or will not) allow themselves out of the mindset of only allowing themselves to use the most efficient build possible. This is what leads to people getting mad that the same builds are suggested on this forum over and over and over such as Godmode for Paragon, or MS-DB Assassin builds, or Mind Blast Ele builds etc.. These are suggested because of their effiiciency and because they are one of, if not, the best build for a class to play given a certain scenario or situation. When people begin to use the exact same build with the exact same attributes, this rolls over to things like PvE skills, where players demand other players have a specific rank on a title track, even though there is little difference between most ranks.
It is generally players who enforce the fact that more grind = benefits by only allowing certain ranks into their groups. I can understand why this is beneficial in PvP as "Rank" is probably the best indicator of experience you have if you're playing with people you don't know. As for PvE, it is not necessary, but it only takes a few people to do it to start a trend, a trend which ends up stagnating and being complained about with noone having the will, power, or motivation to do anything about it.
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It's so shallow and simple that there's no real thought left.
It's sad but that's true. Really makes me wish I'd started playing this game sooner.
Grind is addictive, as is the sense of accomplishment/e-peen the player gets when the grind is finally completed (see: legacyofkain85), but addiction and willing enjoyment are, as they say where I'm from, two big differences. Getting people addicted and stringing them along is a survival mechanism for pay-to-play MMOs, one that the Guild Wars business model has no need for.
A lot of people enjoy cigarettes without realizing they are addicted, and refuse when offered ways to get rid of the addiction. Grind is the same way: it is as bad for you as gambling, alcohol, and cigarette addictions, yet because it is so prevalent and acceptable in contemporary gaming, it is in many cases seen as necessary - a position that I find simply ridiculous.
The problem is that so many people have grown up grinding away at their games that, as proven by "blockbuster" MMOs like WoW and EQ, "grind-friendly" gamers now comprise a major part of the gaming market. Without catering to these gamers, ANet can never hope to cut into the market share of other, "grind-friendly" games.
Despite the above, I have nothing against "grind-friendly" games. Personally, I wouldn't play them, but just as I won't dismiss an FPS game only for being a type of game I do not enjoy, I cannot dismiss "grind-friendly" games for their choice of a mechanism for customer retention. The real issue here is that, due to ANet's ambition and desire to control a greater share of the market, their gaming style is being inserted into my game. If their gaming style wins, Guild Wars won't be my game any more, which means ANet will lose me as a customer - but considering how many customers ANet stands to gain from this change, my actions will not matter one bit.
Yes, I am being very pessimistic about this. If I'm wrong in my assessment, I'll be glad; if I'm right, at least I'll get to say "I called it"
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Piggy-backing grind onto this convoluted relationship is like feeding your horse from the wrong end. Yes, people generally spend more time in a game when they like it, but making people spend more time in the game will not automatically result in people liking the game more.|
Originally Posted by Sab
KoaBD was just an example, kind of a summary for all the "pointless" grindy titles people achieve with no benefits: Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, Cartographer, LDoA, Survivor, etc. Most players I've played with (even PvPers) have gone out of their way to get these titles, despite there being no real reward.
Perhaps some people enjoy going for those titles? I know this is true of me - there may be no "reward", but it's a relaxing use of my time. I like Cartographer, and have it on multiple characters, and often use it as a way of having a break from doing anything more pointful. Survivor was also fun to do once. The others do seem like pointless money sinks to me too but...they maybe float somebody's boat.
legacyofkain85
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Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
I'll take your analogy of getting to RX in HA, and remind people that instead of grinding just once you need to do it all over again for every toon you have - making having multiple characters a pain in the ass for more casual players hoping to get into elite mission PuGs. *bad word, but the best I could think of... I'm aware you don't 'need' to grind So true especially when u want to play an area with another char ,u go like yeah i feel like doing doa on mi X char today ,darn i forgot i dont have that Y title at that Z rank(max usually),but what bugs me the most is getting tired of pve-ing with mi title char(the char i do most of mi titles),wanting to switch to another char than reallizing there is no point because all titles are on 1 char
legacyofkain85
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Originally Posted by Sab
KoaBD was just an example, kind of a summary for all the "pointless" grindy titles people achieve with no benefits: Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, Cartographer, LDoA, Survivor, etc. Most players I've played with (even PvPers) have gone out of their way to get these titles, despite there being no real reward.
It´s more about the feeling of acomplishment
Shyft the Pyro
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Originally Posted by Savio
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Grind is addictive, as is the sense of accomplishment/e-peen the player gets when the grind is finally completed (see: legacyofkain85), but addiction and willing enjoyment are, as they say where I'm from, two big differences. Getting people addicted and stringing them along is a survival mechanism for pay-to-play MMOs, one that the Guild Wars business model has no need for.
A lot of people enjoy cigarettes without realizing they are addicted, and refuse when offered ways to get rid of the addiction. Grind is the same way: it is as bad for you as gambling, alcohol, and cigarette addictions, yet because it is so prevalent and acceptable in contemporary gaming, it is in many cases seen as necessary - a position that I find simply ridiculous.
The problem is that so many people have grown up grinding away at their games that, as proven by "blockbuster" MMOs like WoW and EQ, "grind-friendly" gamers now comprise a major part of the gaming market. Without catering to these gamers, ANet can never hope to cut into the market share of other, "grind-friendly" games.
Despite the above, I have nothing against "grind-friendly" games. Personally, I wouldn't play them, but just as I won't dismiss an FPS game only for being a type of game I do not enjoy, I cannot dismiss "grind-friendly" games for their choice of a mechanism for customer retention. The real issue here is that, due to ANet's ambition and desire to control a greater share of the market, their gaming style is being inserted into my game. If their gaming style wins, Guild Wars won't be my game any more, which means ANet will lose me as a customer - but considering how many customers ANet stands to gain from this change, my actions will not matter one bit.
Yes, I am being very pessimistic about this. If I'm wrong in my assessment, I'll be glad; if I'm right, at least I'll get to say "I called it"