As the title states, I'm out to discover whether this class is true to it's name (Paragon meaning model of excellence). Recently hit 20 with my paragon (died twice on the way there, damn you, survivior title!) and am soon starting to GVG and do HA and I hear that's where paragons excel. Question I have to ask is how do they outperform other classes?
What skills would I be using in a typical GvG/HA scenario? What would my role be? I'm really into the idea of buffing my team's defense, but I also know that not taking spear attacks to apply some pressure is a bad idea.
I also do RA/TA quite a bit on my ranger (50 points so far!) and noticed that opposing Paragons seem quite lacking in their abilities. What kind of build isuseful in these arenas?
Thank you in advance for any help. I would much appreciate it!
Is Paragon truly model of excellence?
Konkadonk
Alex the Great
you pretty much go how you said, some defensive shouts, and a couple spear attacks. Many paragons also bring mesmer interupts like [cry of frustration]
Stormlord Alex
The paragon is more similar to a model of idiocy.
What 'tard at ANet thought it'd be a good idea to create a class with: infinite energy; ranged warrior-strength dps; warrior-strength AL; a permanent, unstrippable IAS; and massively powerful, unstrippable, stackable passive damage/healing/defense buffs; ... I dunno, but that guy needs a slap.
anyho, as a para you do a lot - couple of spear attacks, [[aggressive refrain], and an anthem to keep it up - then an shout to fuel energy, and whatever the hell the team then needs you to do with your infinite energy (mes interrupts, [[mirror of disenchantment], and [[defensive anthem] are common)
What 'tard at ANet thought it'd be a good idea to create a class with: infinite energy; ranged warrior-strength dps; warrior-strength AL; a permanent, unstrippable IAS; and massively powerful, unstrippable, stackable passive damage/healing/defense buffs; ... I dunno, but that guy needs a slap.
anyho, as a para you do a lot - couple of spear attacks, [[aggressive refrain], and an anthem to keep it up - then an shout to fuel energy, and whatever the hell the team then needs you to do with your infinite energy (mes interrupts, [[mirror of disenchantment], and [[defensive anthem] are common)
pipo
i really like to play paragon in pvp because u can stay allive long with a nice build
i tend to use this build in PvP :
[build prof=Paragon/Ranger][Poison Tip Signet][Barbed Spear][Spear of Lightning][Mighty Throw][Leader's Comfort][Melandru's Resilience][Troll Unguent][Resurrection Signet][/build]
i tend to use this build in PvP :
[build prof=Paragon/Ranger][Poison Tip Signet][Barbed Spear][Spear of Lightning][Mighty Throw][Leader's Comfort][Melandru's Resilience][Troll Unguent][Resurrection Signet][/build]
netniwk
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Originally Posted by pipo
i really like to play paragon in pvp because u can stay allive long with a nice build
i tend to use this build in PvP :
[build prof=Paragon/Ranger][Poison Tip Signet][Barbed Spear][Spear of Lightning][Mighty Throw][Leader's Comfort][Melandru's Resilience][Troll Unguent][Resurrection Signet][/build] Let me guess,you also like playing a wammo because you can stay alive long.....
i tend to use this build in PvP :
[build prof=Paragon/Ranger][Poison Tip Signet][Barbed Spear][Spear of Lightning][Mighty Throw][Leader's Comfort][Melandru's Resilience][Troll Unguent][Resurrection Signet][/build] Let me guess,you also like playing a wammo because you can stay alive long.....
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
What 'tard at ANet thought it'd be a good idea to create a class with: infinite energy both WY! and GftE! got nerfed. don't make it seem like a second Soul Reaping; ranged warrior-strength dps true; warrior-strength AL; a permanent, unstrippable IAS it's either one or the other Alex. if you're making a point of durability, Cracked Armour cannot be ignored; and massively powerful, unstrippable, stackable passive damage/healing/defense buffs lol there's no SY! in PvP, so I'd like to see some 'massively powerful' examples as nothing comes to mind; ... I dunno, but that guy needs a slap. true /12chars
Moloch Vein
Actually, Leadership is far more broken as an energy management attribute in PvP than Soul Reaping, as it stands.
OSUJay
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
/12chars 
Cracked armor can be removed rather easily so his point about the massive armor + permanent, unstrippable IAS holds. Hell you could go Necro secondary and pass the cracked armor along to someone else if you felt like it.
ZenRgy
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Originally Posted by Bobby2
lol there's no SY! in PvP, so I'd like to see some 'massively powerful' examples as nothing comes to mind;
[Defensive Anthem]
[Song of Restoration]
[Ballad of Restoration]
[Aria of Restoration]
Just to name a few.
[Song of Restoration]
[Ballad of Restoration]
[Aria of Restoration]
Just to name a few.
michaelhunter81
oy and i thought paragons where lame ass hell, looks like they need a nerf tree rather then a stick comparded to the other classes
exilesfury
Well the only thing about having paragons is that you have to
1) Have a good build.
2) Be able to use it well.
A lot of people in RA don't fit either category, and I always hate ending up with someone who does something as stupid as running around with no armor...
1) Have a good build.
2) Be able to use it well.
A lot of people in RA don't fit either category, and I always hate ending up with someone who does something as stupid as running around with no armor...
Minime The Shadow
btw to point out about those examples stated above as massively powerful examples, really are not.
How, for an elite, is a sub-100 heal every 20 seconds, "massively powerful" same with ballard of restoration.
also its hard to state they have infinite energy, something like anthem of flame boosts energy, but only if the party hasnt split, in ra or ta with just 4 party members it still loses u energy, and if as stated u take mesmer interupt that costs 15 energy, u will run low.
they do have tonnes of potential, but its not as easy as it sounds, hence many people trying and failing the builds, once accustomed to the roles in various pvp arenas, you should find them very useful. And fun to play.
hope that last bit helps
How, for an elite, is a sub-100 heal every 20 seconds, "massively powerful" same with ballard of restoration.
also its hard to state they have infinite energy, something like anthem of flame boosts energy, but only if the party hasnt split, in ra or ta with just 4 party members it still loses u energy, and if as stated u take mesmer interupt that costs 15 energy, u will run low.
they do have tonnes of potential, but its not as easy as it sounds, hence many people trying and failing the builds, once accustomed to the roles in various pvp arenas, you should find them very useful. And fun to play.
hope that last bit helps
Alex the Great
the problem that everyone mentions that makes them op-ed is the armour, but permenant cracked armour kinda screws that over. ya i know there are monks, but If you are doing a lot of shouting your just gonna e-denial your own monk lol.
toastgodsupreme
It's so weird to see everyone talking about Para DPS.
Like it's something to be afraid of (or proud of if you're the para). Single target only... ok, maybe good in pvp, right? Not even. If a war comes charging at me, I get a little nervous. If a para locks onto me, I giggle and let them do whatever they want. Oh noes! +17 damage from their attack skill! HEALZ PLX!
I have a para, it's boring to play. You're VERY limited in what you can do. Want to come as DPS? Sorry, we got warriors and rangers doing that better than you. And they can do damage to multiple foes.
So what's left? Defense mostly. So you're good at defense, well, there's like, 3 builds that you can run and not get laughed at by a team. And really, that got boring fast.
Like it's something to be afraid of (or proud of if you're the para). Single target only... ok, maybe good in pvp, right? Not even. If a war comes charging at me, I get a little nervous. If a para locks onto me, I giggle and let them do whatever they want. Oh noes! +17 damage from their attack skill! HEALZ PLX!
I have a para, it's boring to play. You're VERY limited in what you can do. Want to come as DPS? Sorry, we got warriors and rangers doing that better than you. And they can do damage to multiple foes.
So what's left? Defense mostly. So you're good at defense, well, there's like, 3 builds that you can run and not get laughed at by a team. And really, that got boring fast.
Antithesis
Realistically, without SY and TNTF, how many of us would be playing Paragon in PvE? They were the redheaded stepchild before the Imbagon template arrived on the scene and it was near impossible to get into a PuG.
These two skills have opened the class to thousands of players who otherwise would have completely overlooked the Paragon. As relatively experienced players, we know that neither SY nor TNTF are required to make a strong Para, but we got our start precisely because we were attracted by the skills we're now crying are OP'd.
A similar reasoning can be applied to Ursan, it's opened up high-level PvE to the masses and that's what matters to Anet, not satisfying the needs of the 5% of self-proclaimed 'elite' players. They need a customer base for GW2 and Ursan keeps scrubs playing. Nerf Ursan and watch the playerbase nosedive. That may mean nothing to you or I, but it matters to the beancounters.
These two skills have opened the class to thousands of players who otherwise would have completely overlooked the Paragon. As relatively experienced players, we know that neither SY nor TNTF are required to make a strong Para, but we got our start precisely because we were attracted by the skills we're now crying are OP'd.
A similar reasoning can be applied to Ursan, it's opened up high-level PvE to the masses and that's what matters to Anet, not satisfying the needs of the 5% of self-proclaimed 'elite' players. They need a customer base for GW2 and Ursan keeps scrubs playing. Nerf Ursan and watch the playerbase nosedive. That may mean nothing to you or I, but it matters to the beancounters.
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
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Originally Posted by Antithesis
Realistically, without SY and TNTF, how many of us would be playing Paragon in PvE?
I was quite fond of my Cruel Spear which at the time was stronger than Eviscerate.
MisterT69
A lot of people are complaining about the para's IAS and DPS. Well considering that with AR, they have cracked armor, taking them down to squishy level, and SY+TNTF is pretty much all PVE there. The problem is the PVP aspect. The fact that these paras are pumping out near monk-like healing with unstrippable chants and shouts is causing all the problems. Well so what, monks these days seem to think they're too good for pvp, so let the paragons do what they do best /endsarcasm
Antithesis
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
I was quite fond of my Cruel Spear which at the time was stronger than Eviscerate.
But you're the exception to the rule Rac, we all know that
 I didn't give the Para a fair go until Godmode gave me a reason to try it.
Konkadonk
I'm thankful for the help I received in initial posts, but can someone end this stupid flame war and get back on topic? I still don't know my true use in a TA situation, or in GvG really. Do I stand with my team in GvG, buffing with Def Anthem/SoR and do I just churn out spear attacks in RA.
P.S. Stop using other's threads to continue your little wars, that's not what the boards are here for. Jean Ridders
Wow.... Wasn't aware there was so much hate towards paras, PvE or otherwise.
At any rate... There's been enough crap on here to completely derail the topic, I'll just cut to the helping bit. I usually just PvE as para and the few times I did GvG I ran SoR. Def Anthem is also good since most of the casters when the heat is on. So yeah. if you're running PvP para, in my very limited experience mind you, you stand mostly in buffs and a few spear attacks. I usually carry only one or two spear taps in any situation as is. Paras are most useful in their party-wide buffs IMO. There's probably a lot of people that would argue that with me, but after reading all this crazy bitching, I think I'll just leave the topic with that last two cents on the counter.
Stormlord Alex
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Originally Posted by Konkadonk
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Yup.
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and do I just churn out spear attacks in RA.
Pretty much. Spearmasters with some support are strong templates generally. [build prof=P/W name="Coward Spear" box spear=12+1+1 lead=9+1 command=9+1 desc="Weapon 1: Vamp spear{br}Weapon 2: Non-vamp spear"][vicious attack][spear of lightning][coward][fgj][go for the eyes][anthem of weariness][aggressive refrain][resurrection signet][/build] [build prof=P/ name="Stunning Spear" box spear=11+1+1 lead=11+1 command=8+1 desc="Weapon 1: Vamp spear{br}Weapon 2: Non-vamp spear"][vicious attack][barbed spear][stunning strike][go for the eyes][remedy signet][anthem of weariness][aggressive refrain][resurrection signet][/build] [build prof=P/ name="Cruel Spear" box spear=11+1+1 lead=11+1 moti=8 command=3 desc="Weapon 1: Vamp spear{br}Weapon 2: Non-vamp spear"][cruel spear][harrier's toss][no skill][go for the eyes][mending refrain][anthem of flame][aggressive refrain][resurrection signet][/build] ... are some of my RA/TA templates - the Cruel Spear guy is a particular favourite of mine. Skills can be changed around however, Remedy sig, "Never Surrender!" etc are all useful if needed.
The Meth
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Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
It's so weird to see everyone talking about Para DPS.
Like it's something to be afraid of (or proud of if you're the para). Single target only... ok, maybe good in pvp, right? Not even. If a war comes charging at me, I get a little nervous. If a para locks onto me, I giggle and let them do whatever they want. Oh noes! +17 damage from their attack skill! HEALZ PLX! I have a para, it's boring to play. You're VERY limited in what you can do. Want to come as DPS? Sorry, we got warriors and rangers doing that better than you. And they can do damage to multiple foes. So what's left? Defense mostly. So you're good at defense, well, there's like, 3 builds that you can run and not get laughed at by a team. And really, that got boring fast. Spear DPS is better then sword DPS and just slightly behind axe DPS when the same attribute levels are used. Factor in the fact that the axe user has to chase their targets and can't swap targets instantly in case the target they are on gets protted. Then factor in that the para has infinite IAS. If you see a paragon with such a laughable DPS, its because you ran into one of those noobs who has 3 in spear and everything in 2 other attributes.
MasterSasori
Quote:
Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
Like it's something to be afraid of (or proud of if you're the para). Single target only... ok, maybe good in pvp, right? Not even. If a war comes charging at me, I get a little nervous. If a para locks onto me, I giggle and let them do whatever they want. Oh noes! +17 damage from their attack skill! HEALZ PLX!
I have a para, it's boring to play. You're VERY limited in what you can do. Want to come as DPS? Sorry, we got warriors and rangers doing that better than you. And they can do damage to multiple foes. So what's left? Defense mostly. So you're good at defense, well, there's like, 3 builds that you can run and not get laughed at by a team. And really, that got boring fast. Seeing how Warriors can't fling their axes at you, you might want to give Paragons +1 for the fact they aren't as easily snared and quicker to target or back off. You have a para, and if I recall a rit, and you're terrible at both because you can't appreciate the role of the SUPPORT. Rangers that have better DPS than this is probably running that silly scythe spammer which isn't nearly as useful as a crip shot. Last I checked defense was a good thing. 3 builds only? Go fly a kite. Adja1005
Why all the Paragon hate? Seriously all i ever hear in PvP or PvE is people complaining how imbalanced and overpowered this class is. Change the record already, i've heard this tune far too many times.
The class is not overpowered, it adds great support to a party just like intended. Other than Monks the Paragon is the only other defensive/support class thats effective. Perhaps in PvP it comes across as highly unfair if your up against a Paragon but the same can be said about Ele's or Assassins. Both these classes in PvP can take mere seconds to wipe out opponents, is that fair? Not really but people seem to accept it, so why not accept the Paragons? The only reason i think people feel Paragons are overpowered is because their a class thats actually achieved balance while the other classes really aren't all that balanced at all.
Shaz
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Originally Posted by Konkadonk
Do I stand with my team in GvG, buffing with Def Anthem/SoR and do I just churn out spear attacks in RA
Yea, pretty much, Paragon in GvG are either Def Anthem/SoR or if the team run a more offensive build then it will be Cruel Spear. You're basically there to pressure with DPS and spike assist along with your chant and shout. FoR RA/TA, a less supportive role is better because your defensive shout will lose it effectiveness in a 4vs4 setting. I've never play a paragon there, so can't really comment. But the builds that Alex posted seem effective for a paragon in RA/TA.
MasterSasori
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Originally Posted by Adja1005
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1. Unremovable chants/shouts
2. 80 AL
3. Ranged and high DPS
4. Ridiculous Defensive and offensive support
5. Good energy management
6. SY and TNTF
Imbagon is arguably the most powerful PvE build (other than UB). Paragons have officially obliterated Tactics.
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Perhaps in PvP it comes across as highly unfair if your up against a Paragon but the same can be said about Ele's or Assassins. Both these classes in PvP can take mere seconds to wipe out opponents, is that fair? Not really but people seem to accept it, so why not accept the Paragons?
Because eles and sins don't give supporting buffs that can't be removed.
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You also have to consider that everything can countered (somewhat) but the question the efficiency of it. Does CA matter so much that its not worth AR? I don't think so.
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Originally Posted by Sigon
Very few people now look to the Imbagon , everyone wants a maxed Ursan instead.
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If spears dealt something like, 11-25 damage a hit, paragons would be "better." As it is now, paragons are a model of imbalance.|
Originally Posted by Adja1005
The only reason i think people feel Paragons are overpowered is because their a class thats actually achieved balance while the other classes really aren't all that balanced at all.
They're a class that has reached PvE domination. The only reason why not everyone has an Imbagon is because not everyone has NF, have a problem with the skirt, or noobing it up with UB.
Savio
This is the build forum, not the one "rebel" bullheadedly arguing against everyone else. Stick to the topic.
Sigon
So much para hate. Their buffs are unstrippable i agree but there's a hole in the whole thing. Most paragons have AR. That means they apply CA every time they shout , & paragons shout alot. Yes i know a monk can easly remove it but it's so often reaplied it's not worth it. All you need to do it spam the paragon with various condittions & he has to stop shouting or CA covers up other conditions.
Very few people now look to the Imbagon , everyone wants a maxed Ursan instead. Note that paragons are support. SUPPORT they can do most of the things a monk can but not as good. Those so famed shouts & chants can't match healing or prot monk at all ( i mean 15/20 recharge , a monk can out heal you easly) For the guy who said para dmg sucks. Well ofc it would be bad with low spear mastery points. At 16 spear mastery you can beat an axe warrior , in melle. Now back on topic. You should build your paragon depending on your team. In GvG & HA where you have 8 party members you can go wild with chants. Energy management is done best with Energizing Chorus. If your team is more physical go for the Command line , i suggest you max that & Leader ship & leave out spears. If it's dmg buffing you are going to do you better take it to the limit. If it's more caster team take Def Anthem & max out Motivation ( make sure atleast one caster can aply wide burning for " They're on fire!" For RA/TA & AB i advise you go fully spear spike. Take AR if you wish but i find it that Signet of agression & FGJ/Any shout works wonders. You can even build up your adrenaline while blinded. Take cruel spear as you can apply easier dazed with spear swipe then Stunning spear , Barbed spear is good as a cover for your deep wound. p.s. I'd post builds but i'm still new to the forum so that might come later. Whisp me if you wish - Sigon Kira. Tyla
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Originally Posted by Sigon
If your team is more physical go for the Command line , i suggest you max that & Leader ship & leave out spears. If it's dmg buffing you are going to do you better take it to the limit. Leaving out Spear Mastery is one of the most stupid things you can do as a Paragon. Spears are one of the most stupidly powerful weapons next to Scythe.
Div
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Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
What 'tard at ANet thought it'd be a good idea to create a class with: infinite energy; ranged warrior-strength dps; warrior-strength AL; a permanent, unstrippable IAS; and massively powerful, unstrippable, stackable passive damage/healing/defense buffs; ... I dunno, but that guy needs a slap. anyho, as a para you do a lot - couple of spear attacks, [[aggressive refrain], and an anthem to keep it up - then an shout to fuel energy, and whatever the hell the team then needs you to do with your infinite energy (mes interrupts, [[mirror of disenchantment], and [[defensive anthem] are common) |
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Leaving out Spear Mastery is one of the most stupid things you can do as a Paragon.
Spears are one of the most stupidly powerful weapons next to Scythe. But my warrior leaves out weapon mastery so I could take 16 tactics and 15 strength 
MasterSasori
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Originally Posted by Sigon
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sigon Note that paragons are support. SUPPORT they can do most of the things a monk can but not as good. Those so famed shouts & chants can't match healing or prot monk at all ( i mean 15/20 recharge , a monk can out heal you easly) I doubt you have a monk that can match the retarded power of SY! and TNTF, does ridiculous damage with perm IAS, powerful spear attacks, and GftE!, not to mention other shouts/chants they can apply. If your argument is that a Paragon can't out heal a monk, then mine is that a Paragon can do 100x the damage of a monk. Play roles appropriately.
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Originally Posted by Sigon
For the guy who said para dmg sucks. Well ofc it would be bad with low spear mastery points. At 16 spear mastery you can beat an axe warrior , in melle.
[shock][eviscerate][executioner's strike] begs to differ. Quote:
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