Guild Wars Guru

Is Paragon truly model of excellence?

2 pages • Page 2
Stormlord Alex
Stormlord Alex
Grotto Attendant
• #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Konkadonk Do I stand with my team in GvG, buffing with Def Anthem/SoR Yup.
Quote:
and do I just churn out spear attacks in RA. Pretty much. Spearmasters with some support are strong templates generally.

[build prof=P/W name="Coward Spear" box spear=12+1+1 lead=9+1 command=9+1 desc="Weapon 1: Vamp spear{br}Weapon 2: Non-vamp spear"][vicious attack][spear of lightning][coward][fgj][go for the eyes][anthem of weariness][aggressive refrain][resurrection signet][/build]

[build prof=P/ name="Stunning Spear" box spear=11+1+1 lead=11+1 command=8+1 desc="Weapon 1: Vamp spear{br}Weapon 2: Non-vamp spear"][vicious attack][barbed spear][stunning strike][go for the eyes][remedy signet][anthem of weariness][aggressive refrain][resurrection signet][/build]

[build prof=P/ name="Cruel Spear" box spear=11+1+1 lead=11+1 moti=8 command=3 desc="Weapon 1: Vamp spear{br}Weapon 2: Non-vamp spear"][cruel spear][harrier's toss][no skill][go for the eyes][mending refrain][anthem of flame][aggressive refrain][resurrection signet][/build]

... are some of my RA/TA templates - the Cruel Spear guy is a particular favourite of mine. Skills can be changed around however, Remedy sig, "Never Surrender!" etc are all useful if needed.
The Meth
The Meth
Desert Nomad
• #22
Quote: Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
It's so weird to see everyone talking about Para DPS.

Like it's something to be afraid of (or proud of if you're the para). Single target only... ok, maybe good in pvp, right? Not even. If a war comes charging at me, I get a little nervous. If a para locks onto me, I giggle and let them do whatever they want. Oh noes! +17 damage from their attack skill! HEALZ PLX!

I have a para, it's boring to play. You're VERY limited in what you can do. Want to come as DPS? Sorry, we got warriors and rangers doing that better than you. And they can do damage to multiple foes.

So what's left? Defense mostly. So you're good at defense, well, there's like, 3 builds that you can run and not get laughed at by a team. And really, that got boring fast. Spear DPS is better then sword DPS and just slightly behind axe DPS when the same attribute levels are used. Factor in the fact that the axe user has to chase their targets and can't swap targets instantly in case the target they are on gets protted. Then factor in that the para has infinite IAS. If you see a paragon with such a laughable DPS, its because you ran into one of those noobs who has 3 in spear and everything in 2 other attributes.
MasterSasori
MasterSasori
Desert Nomad
• #23
Quote: Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
Like it's something to be afraid of (or proud of if you're the para). Single target only... ok, maybe good in pvp, right? Not even. If a war comes charging at me, I get a little nervous. If a para locks onto me, I giggle and let them do whatever they want. Oh noes! +17 damage from their attack skill! HEALZ PLX!

I have a para, it's boring to play. You're VERY limited in what you can do. Want to come as DPS? Sorry, we got warriors and rangers doing that better than you. And they can do damage to multiple foes.

So what's left? Defense mostly. So you're good at defense, well, there's like, 3 builds that you can run and not get laughed at by a team. And really, that got boring fast. Seeing how Warriors can't fling their axes at you, you might want to give Paragons +1 for the fact they aren't as easily snared and quicker to target or back off.

You have a para, and if I recall a rit, and you're terrible at both because you can't appreciate the role of the SUPPORT. Rangers that have better DPS than this is probably running that silly scythe spammer which isn't nearly as useful as a crip shot.

Last I checked defense was a good thing. 3 builds only? Go fly a kite.
A
Adja1005
Frost Gate Guardian
• #24
Why all the Paragon hate? Seriously all i ever hear in PvP or PvE is people complaining how imbalanced and overpowered this class is. Change the record already, i've heard this tune far too many times.

The class is not overpowered, it adds great support to a party just like intended. Other than Monks the Paragon is the only other defensive/support class thats effective.

Perhaps in PvP it comes across as highly unfair if your up against a Paragon but the same can be said about Ele's or Assassins. Both these classes in PvP can take mere seconds to wipe out opponents, is that fair? Not really but people seem to accept it, so why not accept the Paragons?

The only reason i think people feel Paragons are overpowered is because their a class thats actually achieved balance while the other classes really aren't all that balanced at all.
Shaz
Shaz
Krytan Explorer
• #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Konkadonk
Do I stand with my team in GvG, buffing with Def Anthem/SoR and do I just churn out spear attacks in RA Yea, pretty much, Paragon in GvG are either Def Anthem/SoR or if the team run a more offensive build then it will be Cruel Spear. You're basically there to pressure with DPS and spike assist along with your chant and shout. FoR RA/TA, a less supportive role is better because your defensive shout will lose it effectiveness in a 4vs4 setting. I've never play a paragon there, so can't really comment. But the builds that Alex posted seem effective for a paragon in RA/TA.
MasterSasori
MasterSasori
Desert Nomad
• #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Adja1005 Why all the Paragon hate? Seriously all i ever hear in PvP or PvE is people complaining how imbalanced and overpowered this class is. Change the record already, i've heard this tune far too many times. Go go [Ursan blessing]

Quote: Originally Posted by Adja1005 The class is not overpowered, it adds great support to a party just like intended. Other than Monks the Paragon is the only other defensive/support class thats effective. That's really offensive to the MB warding eles/Hybrid Rits/D Slash Godmode out there. As for not overpowered:

1. Unremovable chants/shouts
2. 80 AL
3. Ranged and high DPS
4. Ridiculous Defensive and offensive support
5. Good energy management
6. SY and TNTF

Imbagon is arguably the most powerful PvE build (other than UB). Paragons have officially obliterated Tactics.

Quote: Originally Posted by Adja1005
Perhaps in PvP it comes across as highly unfair if your up against a Paragon but the same can be said about Ele's or Assassins. Both these classes in PvP can take mere seconds to wipe out opponents, is that fair? Not really but people seem to accept it, so why not accept the Paragons? Because eles and sins don't give supporting buffs that can't be removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adja1005
The only reason i think people feel Paragons are overpowered is because their a class thats actually achieved balance while the other classes really aren't all that balanced at all. They're a class that has reached PvE domination. The only reason why not everyone has an Imbagon is because not everyone has NF, have a problem with the skirt, or noobing it up with UB.
Savio
Savio
Teenager with attitude
• #27
This is the build forum, not the one "rebel" bullheadedly arguing against everyone else. Stick to the topic.
Sigon
Sigon
Ascalonian Squire
• #28
So much para hate. Their buffs are unstrippable i agree but there's a hole in the whole thing. Most paragons have AR. That means they apply CA every time they shout , & paragons shout alot. Yes i know a monk can easly remove it but it's so often reaplied it's not worth it. All you need to do it spam the paragon with various condittions & he has to stop shouting or CA covers up other conditions.

Very few people now look to the Imbagon , everyone wants a maxed Ursan instead.

Note that paragons are support. SUPPORT they can do most of the things a monk can but not as good. Those so famed shouts & chants can't match healing or prot monk at all ( i mean 15/20 recharge , a monk can out heal you easly)

For the guy who said para dmg sucks. Well ofc it would be bad with low spear mastery points. At 16 spear mastery you can beat an axe warrior , in melle.

Now back on topic. You should build your paragon depending on your team.
In GvG & HA where you have 8 party members you can go wild with chants. Energy management is done best with Energizing Chorus.
If your team is more physical go for the Command line , i suggest you max that & Leader ship & leave out spears. If it's dmg buffing you are going to do you better take it to the limit.
If it's more caster team take Def Anthem & max out Motivation ( make sure atleast one caster can aply wide burning for " They're on fire!"
For RA/TA & AB i advise you go fully spear spike. Take AR if you wish but i find it that Signet of agression & FGJ/Any shout works wonders. You can even build up your adrenaline while blinded. Take cruel spear as you can apply easier dazed with spear swipe then Stunning spear , Barbed spear is good as a cover for your deep wound.

p.s. I'd post builds but i'm still new to the forum so that might come later. Whisp me if you wish - Sigon Kira.
T
Tyla
Emo Goth Italics
• #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Sigon

If your team is more physical go for the Command line , i suggest you max that & Leader ship & leave out spears. If it's dmg buffing you are going to do you better take it to the limit. Leaving out Spear Mastery is one of the most stupid things you can do as a Paragon.
Spears are one of the most stupidly powerful weapons next to Scythe.
Div
Div
I like yumy food!
• #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex The paragon is more similar to a model of idiocy.
What 'tard at ANet thought it'd be a good idea to create a class with: infinite energy; ranged warrior-strength dps; warrior-strength AL; a permanent, unstrippable IAS; and massively powerful, unstrippable, stackable passive damage/healing/defense buffs; ... I dunno, but that guy needs a slap.

anyho, as a para you do a lot - couple of spear attacks, [[aggressive refrain], and an anthem to keep it up - then an shout to fuel energy, and whatever the hell the team then needs you to do with your infinite energy (mes interrupts, [[mirror of disenchantment], and [[defensive anthem] are common) If spears dealt something like, 11-25 damage a hit, paragons would be "better." As it is now, paragons are a model of imbalance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Leaving out Spear Mastery is one of the most stupid things you can do as a Paragon.
Spears are one of the most stupidly powerful weapons next to Scythe. But my warrior leaves out weapon mastery so I could take 16 tactics and 15 strength
MasterSasori
MasterSasori
Desert Nomad
• #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Sigon So much para hate. Their buffs are unstrippable i agree but there's a hole in the whole thing. Most paragons have AR. That means they apply CA every time they shout , & paragons shout alot. Yes i know a monk can easly remove it but it's so often reaplied it's not worth it. All you need to do it spam the paragon with various condittions & he has to stop shouting or CA covers up other conditions. You also have to consider that everything can countered (somewhat) but the question the efficiency of it. Does CA matter so much that its not worth AR? I don't think so.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sigon Very few people now look to the Imbagon , everyone wants a maxed Ursan instead. People don't look to Imbagon because they're ignorant of its power and seeing how UB is so godly as it is, there will be little reason to try to expand to include anything else.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sigon Note that paragons are support. SUPPORT they can do most of the things a monk can but not as good. Those so famed shouts & chants can't match healing or prot monk at all ( i mean 15/20 recharge , a monk can out heal you easly) I doubt you have a monk that can match the retarded power of SY! and TNTF, does ridiculous damage with perm IAS, powerful spear attacks, and GftE!, not to mention other shouts/chants they can apply. If your argument is that a Paragon can't out heal a monk, then mine is that a Paragon can do 100x the damage of a monk. Play roles appropriately.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigon
For the guy who said para dmg sucks. Well ofc it would be bad with low spear mastery points. At 16 spear mastery you can beat an axe warrior , in melle. [shock][eviscerate][executioner's strike] begs to differ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigon
If your team is more physical go for the Command line , i suggest you max that & Leader ship & leave out spears. If it's dmg buffing you are going to do you better take it to the limit. Not a good idea to leave out spears....
Shaz
Shaz
Krytan Explorer
• #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Sigon
Now back on topic. You should build your paragon depending on your team.
In GvG & HA where you have 8 party members you can go wild with chants. Energy management is done best with Energizing Chorus.
If your team is more physical go for the Command line , i suggest you max that & Leader ship & leave out spears. If it's dmg buffing you are going to do you better take it to the limit.
If it's more caster team take Def Anthem & max out Motivation ( make sure atleast one caster can aply wide burning for " They're on fire!"
For RA/TA & AB i advise you go fully spear spike. Take AR if you wish but i find it that Signet of agression & FGJ/Any shout works wonders. You can even build up your adrenaline while blinded. Take cruel spear as you can apply easier dazed with spear swipe then Stunning spear , Barbed spear is good as a cover for your deep wound. Wow, so much bad advices. Energizing Chorus for e-management? Just use Leadership and good positioning. Most command skills that you use are good enough at 9-10, bring it to 13-14 doesn't help your team as much as having spear mastery, and 10-12 leadership is more than enough. No spear mastery on a paragon is like no weapon mastery on a warrior, it's just dumb.

If you're running some crazy build that have lots of burning, then sure, maybe bring ToF, but don't just make one caster bring burning skill just so you can use ToF.

AR/IAS is not just there to build adrenaline, it's there to increase your DPS as well. Barbed Spear is usually not worth it unless you're running some condition pressure team build then maybe, or need a condition to trigger/cover Stunning Strike in RA or something.
x
xDusT II
Wilds Pathfinder
• #33
This bar is quite fun in RA/TA:

[Barbed Spear][Vicious attack]["Make Haste!"][Crippling Anthem][Aggressive Refrain][Anthem of Weariness]["Never Surrender!"][Resurrection Signet]

Or replace ["Never Surrender!"] with ["Brace Yourself!"] or [Rend Enchantments]
Moloch Vein
Moloch Vein
Forge Runner
• #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Sigon
So much para hate. Their buffs are unstrippable i agree but there's a hole in the whole thing. Most paragons have AR. That means they apply CA every time they shout , & paragons shout alot. Yes i know a monk can easly remove it but it's so often reaplied it's not worth it. All you need to do it spam the paragon with various condittions & he has to stop shouting or CA covers up other conditions. Actually, I only had to read that far. You obviously have no idea how to play a paragon, and no idea how the class works.
Sigon
Sigon
Ascalonian Squire
• #35
Fine i agree i'm inexperienced since i only had the game for 4 months.

Call it bad luck but each time i equip AR i run into someone who spams me whit condittions.

I may have to rephrase on Energizing Chorus : I meant it as the adrenal energy shout for Motivation line not e-management instead of leadership . The Command line is full of adrenal shouts so it's not needed there.

Sasori , the shock axe warrior has to get in range of the paragon which can easly cripple. That means more damange for the paragon , & if he/she starts kiting the said warrior will have a hard time.

I agree on the IAS reply ,i'm experimenting with warrior stances now , but the ability to attack with your higher cost attack skills at the very begining of the fight has it's benefits.

Moloch please PM how you think the paragon works i'm always open for new ideas. No need for the whole pro/noob attitude.

p.s. I did not say my ideas were the best , the topic is for advise & i gave it. If it's followed is not my concern.
Kale Ironfist
Kale Ironfist
Jungle Guide
• #36
Any decent team is going to pack either Draw Conditions or Foul Feast to strip away condition stacks, and Cracked Armor itself doesn't bring the Paragons' armor back down to caster level due to shield and insignia bonus. That alone gives +26, with a potential further +10 from shield inscription, then -20 from Cracked Armor, for a total armor of 86, 96 if the shield inscription is triggered.

Quote: Sasori , the shock axe warrior has to get in range of the paragon which can easly cripple. That means more damange for the paragon , & if he/she starts kiting the said warrior will have a hard time. Axe will deal more damage than spear due to:
1. Attack time
2. Skill bonus damage

Shock Axe also packs in stuff like Shock and Bull's Strike to help with getting kills. There is no way a Paragon will be up to the task of getting similar damage to a Shock Axe. A 1v1 between Paragon and Shock Axe is a stupid idea.
Sigon
Sigon
Ascalonian Squire
• #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist
Any decent team is going to pack either Draw Conditions or Foul Feast to strip away condition stacks, and Cracked Armor itself doesn't bring the Paragons' armor back down to caster level due to shield and insignia bonus. That alone gives +26, with a potential further +10 from shield inscription, then -20 from Cracked Armor, for a total armor of 86, 96 if the shield inscription is triggered.


Axe will deal more damage than spear due to:
1. Attack time
2. Skill bonus damage

Shock Axe also packs in stuff like Shock and Bull's Strike to help with getting kills. There is no way a Paragon will be up to the task of getting similar damage to a Shock Axe. A 1v1 between Paragon and Shock Axe is a stupid idea. You can't be sure at all in RA that someone will draw your condittions. It's not the AL lowering of RA that bothers me it's the constant CA condition. IF it was something like "You have -20 armor while under the effects of this echo." then it's diffrent.

I'm not saying the spear paragon is BETTER then the axe warrior. The chances when both fight are 50/50. The warrior does pack more raw dmg but the paragon can easly cripple & attack from range.

1 vs 1 isn't a bad idea. I'd love to see a 1 vs 1 arena where you can test builds specialy designed against a certain class.

p.s. Let's end this pointless discussion since my post got so flamed i doubt it will get read so please share your advices.
MasterSasori
MasterSasori
Desert Nomad
• #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Sigon
You can't be sure at all in RA that someone will draw your condittions. It's not the AL lowering of RA that bothers me it's the constant CA condition. IF it was something like "You have -20 armor while under the effects of this echo." then it's diffrent.

I'm not saying the spear paragon is BETTER then the axe warrior. The chances when both fight are 50/50. The warrior does pack more raw dmg but the paragon can easly cripple & attack from range.

1 vs 1 isn't a bad idea. I'd love to see a 1 vs 1 arena where you can test builds specialy designed against a certain class.

p.s. Let's end this pointless discussion since my post got so flamed i doubt it will get read so please share your advices. No I'm pretty certain that Shock Axe will have the advantage unless the Paragon is going for something anti-melee and packs Crippling Anthem and what not. Again it comes down to roles - Shock axe is meant for a huge spike damage and is difficult to escape thanks to Shock and Bull's Strike. Paragon is meant to be played as a support role; even though it can deal damage like a warrior, it still isn't a warrior.
Sigon
Sigon
Ascalonian Squire
• #39
Sasori i don't think any of the classes in GW are meant to be played THAT WAY. An ele can tank & warrior can spike , that's a role revesal of those said professions from their common RPG roles.
I don't think i paragon needs Cripling anthem to cripple in RA. Maiming spear is doing the job just fine.
Yes a paragon can do dmg like a warrior but is not a warrior. I don't think we should mix those up.
Warrior= Strenght. You can have armor penetration , do very good physical damage & survive good deal of damage yourself
Paragon=Leadership = You can boost the dmg dealing/reduction & deal damage yourself like a warrior ,but not survive like a warrior.
The key to the damage of those 2 proffessions is adrenaline which i find paragons can manage better since they are ranged fighters. The warrior has to run up to a target & run to the next incase the 1st gets protted in some way. In the meantime the paragon is already dealing dmg & getting adrenaline.
I have no doubt a skilled warrior can make short work of me as a paragon , or any warrior who catches me while i'm trying to cover that deep wound i just applied to the enemy monk. But otherwise chances are 50/50.

As for the focuse on atributes. In RA i ran many times to paragons who relied on their shouts to boost their damange. Most of the time i killed them without too much effort. The times they beat me was either due to a monk backing them or some other class dealing me the bulk of the dmg.
Moloch Vein
Moloch Vein
Forge Runner
• #40
Warriors don't tank in PvP. You have it mixed up.