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Originally Posted by Turbobusa
"Support skills" = TNTF/SY? if yes I see why you don't need 2 healers
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25% monks
arcanemacabre
bj91x
1 out of 10 professions?
There are two main healer classes; Rt and Mo. In addition, there are additional professions that can heal pretty well; N, D, and P. Not to mention support roles and classes that give you enough benefits that in most areas, you can do with 1 healer (such as MM, Order, support P, etc.).
There are two main healer classes; Rt and Mo. In addition, there are additional professions that can heal pretty well; N, D, and P. Not to mention support roles and classes that give you enough benefits that in most areas, you can do with 1 healer (such as MM, Order, support P, etc.).
NoXiFy
I would agree that several areas in the game require a third monk. Remember old-school DoA, before ursan? Even than deaths were common with the bonder, sb, and hb. Also the third monk is used for keeping NPC's alive in bullshit missions where you lose an hour in because an NPC died (Underworld... 3 monks is pretty much mandatory as sig of humil > terratank)
Celestial_Kitsune
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Originally Posted by Turbobusa
"Support skills" = TNTF/SY? if yes I see why you don't need 2 healers
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LifeInfusion
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Originally Posted by I pwnd U
i cn spll wtht vwls t! School is your friend.
As MoriaOrc said, there are alternatives. Rits are good at healing and you throw in a paragon for support, you have it made. Paragons may not heal for alot but the support they can give is second to none. |
You need monks for prot most of the time, since almost every boss is a "prot spirit or die" situation.
This fact brings me back to a point I made before, which is most players don't understand the concept of a midline and bring pew-pew damage on their nonmonks casters. If necromancers brought stuff other than BR/BiP, MM, and SS and did something like weakening/hexing things for negative effects then the monk prots are less necessary. If the elementalist brings b-surge then the monks' job is less important. If the ranger interrupts 300 damage fireballs, then the monks' job is less necessary. If the paragon pumps out chants that buff the party, there is less of a job for the monk. If the ritualist runs channeling-restoration hybrid he /she won't replace the monk but at as a catch for when the monk is low on energy. If the mesmer shuts down enemy midline and/or backline, then there is less of a job for the monk since the time to kill the targets is much less meaning less energy strain on the monk.
There's more to it than tank-nuke and-heal.
Joseph Leito
Problem is, I know from personal experience that you will be laughed out of everywhere if you say:
"Interrupt Ranger LFG"
Tank-Nuke-Heal will unfortunately never leave.
"Interrupt Ranger LFG"
Tank-Nuke-Heal will unfortunately never leave.
LifeInfusion
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Originally Posted by Joseph Leito
Problem is, I know from personal experience that you will be laughed out of everywhere if you say:
"Interrupt Ranger LFG" Tank-Nuke-Heal will unfortunately never leave. |
compare this to the necro SS (elite) or SV necro. Rangers probably have one of the best no-elite skillsets.
Red Sonya
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Originally Posted by snaek
it also eliminates any kind of team roles/team organization/team play...
instead of 8 ppl working together u get 8 ppl jus doin their own thing 'together' |
Now to improve that just make everyone hybrid healers and you won't even need your HB monks.
Crom The Pale
Part of the problem or issue here that the OP raised is that in "almost" every party you have 7 of X +1Monk or 6 of X +2 monks.
It is extremely rare to find a party with 0 monks in it.
On the flip side its comon to find a party with no warrior, or no ele, or no mes, or no necro, or no ranger, ect....
Virtually every other class can be left out of the party build, but the monks are almost always an absolute must.
It is extremely rare to find a party with 0 monks in it.
On the flip side its comon to find a party with no warrior, or no ele, or no mes, or no necro, or no ranger, ect....
Virtually every other class can be left out of the party build, but the monks are almost always an absolute must.
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Virtually every other class can be left out of the party build, but the monks are almost always an absolute must.
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I think that there was only one death during that run, on that ele boss in the middle.My overall observation on alliance expeditions has been that although it's comfortable to have some monks (or rits or paras) around they are not mandatory anywhere. If we get a full party of real players and nobody wants to bring their monk it's just a matter of adjusting builds and playstyle a bit. Any combination of professions can work in PvE, provided that you are willing to think outside the box.
Concerning GW2, I believe that the announced sidekick system is designed to address this. Every melee character can feel safer having their dedicated little healbot
On the other hand, team dynamics is one of the greatest aspects of the original GW. If team play in GW2 will be just 'soloing in a group' then I'll certainly be less enthusiastic about it.
Celestial_Kitsune
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Concerning GW2, I believe that the announced sidekick system is designed to address this. Every melee character can feel safer having their dedicated little healbot
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tmakinen
I stand corrected 
But can I still /kick it if it doesn't do my bidding?
But can I still /kick it if it doesn't do my bidding?
mazey vorstagg
The holy trinity works well in most games GW included. Tank, DPS and Healer.
so, although healers will be needed I hope there's more than one class that can do it: for example
Ritualist (big heals with conditions)
Monk (mix of prot and healing)
Paragon (healing based on the actions of your party members + prot + aoe healing)
Dervish (healing over time, lots of health regen)
Seeing as these classes kinda touched on it in GW it would be nice if they were expanded to become proper healers.
I'd also like to see most classes having some sort of dps attribute they can spec into. For instance, making smiting more viable.
so, although healers will be needed I hope there's more than one class that can do it: for example
Ritualist (big heals with conditions)
Monk (mix of prot and healing)
Paragon (healing based on the actions of your party members + prot + aoe healing)
Dervish (healing over time, lots of health regen)
Seeing as these classes kinda touched on it in GW it would be nice if they were expanded to become proper healers.
I'd also like to see most classes having some sort of dps attribute they can spec into. For instance, making smiting more viable.
Pleikki
mm. Yeah Paras and Ritus works great and you dont need monks.
Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
I don't see your point. Are you talking about more self healing/protection, or the fail of henchies? Because I was addressing the former. I totally agree with the latter, but that isn't the point, is it?
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Kitsune
None of the members of the team were completely dedicated to heal or prot - they had both offensive and support skills.
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Let´s take it away from the professions and consider the 64 skillset. Two monks would mean, you have 16 skills for protecting/healing. What is the minimum amount of healing/prot skills you need from the monk, ritualist and paragon professions to succeed and not being too slow? While we are at it, what is the minimum amount of utility skills you need to do the same?
If the whole team only has selfhealing skills, how many areas/missions can you finish?
MercenaryKnight
The purpose of dedicated healers is to allow the other characters to bring more skills for killing purposes. Obviously you could make every single character bring enough skills to keep themselves alive, but that would seriously hinder their own killing builds. So to keep it a bit easier on everyone you have your support/ healers and then your damage characters seperate. Obviously some skills are utility to add some general support for harder areas. Aegis, enfeebling blood, your own personal self heal or condition removal etc. But generally it's easier to let a healer focus on the healing and let you focus on the killing.
Div
I just solo monked HM FoW earlier today. Damn sneaky people who didn't tell me I'd be the only monk 
And really, pretty much all the zones you can do by replacing a monk with a rit or N/Rt.
And really, pretty much all the zones you can do by replacing a monk with a rit or N/Rt.
Racthoh
You can get by a lot of the time with just one monk provided there is adequate passive defense placed among the other 7 members. 64 skills to choose from; find the balance between offense and defense that works for you.
Pff you had plenty of time to look at the party bar before I scrolled in.
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
I just solo monked HM FoW earlier today. Damn sneaky people who didn't tell me I'd be the only monk
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cataphract
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Now I'm not asking for wars to get a 300hp self heal, but maybe its time to remove the -40armor from healing signet and the 1sec recharge from Lion's comfort....maybe elementals/necros/ranger/ect all need a buff to self healing within reason.
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Originally Posted by Alleji
*Although you can make a case for necros... SS and minions are so absurdly powerful, it's stupid to not bring them. That's 2 necros in a group, does that make necros a required 25% too? >.>
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IMHO, specialisation is the key here. Every class specialises in something - some deal damage, some tank, others heal. I don't want self-healing warriors because 95% of them will fall back in order to use that Healing Signet. Which, in turn, will result in the mob selecting me, a poor and squishy monk, as their next target. And that's a best-case scenario. Worst-case is when they attack the other monk who then starts running around like a madman on fire.
pamelf
monks will always be crucial. They're the healers...
I think the reason there are less and less of them in game at the moment are because teams are expecting monks to run cookie cutter builds. The number of times my monk has been kicked from a team just because she doesn't use the PVX copy-pasted HB build is ridiculous. The HB build I run is perfectly fine (I've vanquised most of EOTN with it with no deaths - or very minimal deaths in one or two cases), but because it doesn't look EXACTLY the same as everyone elses all of a sudden i'm not worthy of playing in teams.
There's plenty of monks around, but because of our treatment most of us will turn to H/H. Since my first year of GW I've basically henched everything, and thank god for nightfall and heroes.
I think the reason there are less and less of them in game at the moment are because teams are expecting monks to run cookie cutter builds. The number of times my monk has been kicked from a team just because she doesn't use the PVX copy-pasted HB build is ridiculous. The HB build I run is perfectly fine (I've vanquised most of EOTN with it with no deaths - or very minimal deaths in one or two cases), but because it doesn't look EXACTLY the same as everyone elses all of a sudden i'm not worthy of playing in teams.
There's plenty of monks around, but because of our treatment most of us will turn to H/H. Since my first year of GW I've basically henched everything, and thank god for nightfall and heroes.
Avarre
Healing is only so important, and there are two classes that provide healing ability (Rt and Mo), with some others to small extents (IMBUE HEALTH).
Protection is also a huge part of defense, larger than healing. Protection skills are found on a wide range of classes, ranging from wards to shouts to spirits to monk prot.
Strictly speaking, while monks are the most effective at heal and prot, you can offload these roles onto other classes. You might not remain the most effective, but there's plenty of room to play around in PvE to allow you to use other things and still dominate, and if efficiency was everything, we'd only see Warriors, Paragons, and Monks in this game.
Protection is also a huge part of defense, larger than healing. Protection skills are found on a wide range of classes, ranging from wards to shouts to spirits to monk prot.
Strictly speaking, while monks are the most effective at heal and prot, you can offload these roles onto other classes. You might not remain the most effective, but there's plenty of room to play around in PvE to allow you to use other things and still dominate, and if efficiency was everything, we'd only see Warriors, Paragons, and Monks in this game.
Celestial_Kitsune
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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
How many healing/protecting skills did you use in that build?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
Let´s take it away from the professions and consider the 64 skillset. Two monks would mean, you have 16 skills for protecting/healing. What is the minimum amount of healing/prot skills you need from the monk, ritualist and paragon professions to succeed and not being too slow? While we are at it, what is the minimum amount of utility skills you need to do the same?
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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
If the whole team only has selfhealing skills, how many areas/missions can you finish?
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I understand that you don't like current set up with poor self-heals and necessity to dedicate a part of the team to heal/prot skills. However, I would find the game boring if it didn't have professions focused primarily on heal/prot.
super strokey
Well before ritual lord got nuked it could easily cover one monk and then some, now i dont really know of another way to honestly gove them as well. I think monks are too important too myself
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by EPO Bot
Don't get me wrong, i play my monkie exclusively because i just love her, but that doesn't keep me from thinking they are a little too important, and there will never be enough of them in this game.
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GvG is 8v8. (As is HA.)
If it took a full character's output to heal and protect against the full damage output of a character, you'd need four monks. Thankfully, this isn't the case.
Implication: healing must be more efficient than damage output.
Now, if every character class could heal more effectively than any class could output damage, you'd never kill anything and PvP would be insanely boring.
So what's a designer to do? Stick efficient healing and prot on one character class and compel players to run it. Other character classes have healing output and protective abilities; none of it is nearly efficient, and stuff has to die a lot (N/Rt) for the prospective output of any other option to exceed that of the monk.
Therefore, you get a lot of two and three monk teams in PvP and PvE. No sense playing less-than-efficient builds, right? Just wastes time.
Rohan
I like how in this game you got the people that do the damage and the people that keep them up. I would hate to see GW2 be a game in which characters can do everything by themselves, killing the team play that is required (usually) in GW.
Age
You may wonder why there is shortage of Monks in this game it is because they stopped playing the good ones that is.It is treatment like this and from the other thread.
credit
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Originally Posted by I pwnd U
i cn spll wtht vwls t! School is your friend.
As MoriaOrc said, there are alternatives. Rits are good at healing and you throw in a paragon for support, you have it made. Paragons may not heal for alot but the support they can give is second to none. |
Burst Cancel
GW2 doesn't need dedicated support classes. MMOs are much more fluid and flexible using the standard class models where all classes can do (roughly) equally well on their own, despite having different tools. Granted, most RPGs manage this by having healing roles taken over by healing potions, which is a mechanic no one really benefits from, but there's no reason why you couldn't simply make all classes completely self-sufficient in their own ways.
Anet has to have realized by now that a large part of the PvE problem is the forced-party dynamic. Generally speaking, areas are designed for teams of players, and classes have pretty well-defined roles. You aren't going to find warriors taking on support roles, and monks aren't frontliners. You have some flexibility in the midline, and some classes have novelty skills (Spirit's Strength, Illusionary Weaponry, etc.) that allow them to mimic (to a far lesser degree), one of the other classes, but broadly speaking both teams and classes are strictly defined. This is why the game has to resort to idiotic stopgaps like henchmen and heroes, which are entirely sub-optimal solutions to a problem that didn't have to exist in the first place - force partying.
Diablo 2 had the right idea with allowing solo play while scaling difficulty and rewards with the number of players in the game. If you want to play by yourself (or if there doesn't happen to be anyone else around), you can; if you want to play in parties, you can. The idea isn't directly applicable to GW since D2 wasn't an MMO, but the principle can be adapted.
Anet has to have realized by now that a large part of the PvE problem is the forced-party dynamic. Generally speaking, areas are designed for teams of players, and classes have pretty well-defined roles. You aren't going to find warriors taking on support roles, and monks aren't frontliners. You have some flexibility in the midline, and some classes have novelty skills (Spirit's Strength, Illusionary Weaponry, etc.) that allow them to mimic (to a far lesser degree), one of the other classes, but broadly speaking both teams and classes are strictly defined. This is why the game has to resort to idiotic stopgaps like henchmen and heroes, which are entirely sub-optimal solutions to a problem that didn't have to exist in the first place - force partying.
Diablo 2 had the right idea with allowing solo play while scaling difficulty and rewards with the number of players in the game. If you want to play by yourself (or if there doesn't happen to be anyone else around), you can; if you want to play in parties, you can. The idea isn't directly applicable to GW since D2 wasn't an MMO, but the principle can be adapted.
Mystica
Diablo 2 has potions.
gremlin
In much of pve there is no absolute need for monks although some areas are far easier with them in the party.
Of course this is where the other party members have some form of self healing and at least a res signet, something any considerate party member should have.
Of course this is where the other party members have some form of self healing and at least a res signet, something any considerate party member should have.
pkodyssey
As an experiment we actually vanquished a few zones WITHOUT monks to see if it could be done.
No problem. Our monk went Ursan with the rest of the team and we just managed our own health by pulling out of battle before health got to low.
However, I hope that GW2 doesn't have ridiculous PvE skills. It is amazing that a game with a bazillion skills has been reduced to ONE skill. Talk about killing a game.
No problem. Our monk went Ursan with the rest of the team and we just managed our own health by pulling out of battle before health got to low.
However, I hope that GW2 doesn't have ridiculous PvE skills. It is amazing that a game with a bazillion skills has been reduced to ONE skill. Talk about killing a game.
roshanabey2
Don't get me wrong i get what you are saying, but you don't need 2 monks, the need for 2 monks is player based idea, 1 monk and 1 paragon is more useful (for me) or 2 rts are good aswell.
legacyofkain85
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
I've actually had the same thoughts as the OP.
Should the monks have healing stripped from them? Force them to focus on Protection/Smiting and maybe a small buff to other classes self healing? Generally speaking when most teams have 2 monks, one is protect the other healing. Now I'm not asking for wars to get a 300hp self heal, but maybe its time to remove the -40armor from healing signet and the 1sec recharge from Lion's comfort....maybe elementals/necros/ranger/ect all need a buff to self healing within reason. |
legacyofkain85
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Originally Posted by Alleji
Rits are fine healers too and N/Rts are less efficient with heals, but have unlimited energy. Yes, you need at least one copy of PS for any high-end PvE, but a secondary can bring that. I usually bring a N/Rt hero and a hench monk, so that's 1 monk in my group.
Yeah, monks are probably the most in-demand profession*, but they are not 100% necessary. *Although you can make a case for necros... SS and minions are so absurdly powerful, it's stupid to not bring them. That's 2 necros in a group, does that make necros a required 25% too? >.> |
EPO Bot
You could put it this way: You have seven party members, one of them is already a monk that is part of your guild and you know he's a skilled one. Then there are two characters in the outpost, one is a monk in ascalon armor and with no title, the other is a paragon who has many leather bound books and FoW armor. Wich one are you most inclined to pick? Yes, thats what i tought.