Has UB only really changed the prejudice?

Has UB only really changed the prejudice from profession-specific prejudice to a skill-specific prejudice for groups?

In other words, was the elitism always there but only in a different form (aimed at a different group)?


This is not a discussion of why or how UB sucks. It's just to discuss whether UB created elitism or merely shifted it from, for example, not allowing Mesmers to join a DoA group, to not wanting to waste time without UB.

It became a standard in PvE, so everyone that doesn't use it is looked down upon.

I'd say so. I like to run a SY/TNTF paragon in the fissure and underworld but can't even get into groups anymore. I have r10 Norn too; it's just not very fun to use.

The thing i want people who hate ursan to understand is...

Once ursan goes, you go back to the trinity/very certain builds.

And i struggle to see how button mashing ursan changes much from button mashing tank/nuker.

Your either mashing buttons for an ursan or mashing buttons for a nuker/war/whatever build you happen to run.

Ursan is just a quicker way of button mashing.

It hasn't really shifted elitism, it's made a finer line between two groups, people that have it and people that don't.

It's ridiculously easy to hit R10 anyway, it should take most players a week tops to max, so there really shouldn't be a problem with elitism if you just invest a short amount of time into it.

@October Jade: That's just the usual Ursan stupidity showing; they don't know that an Imbagon would be just as beneficial as a monk.

I think this post further reflects my question...

There will always be people who want to do things as efficiently as possible =)

right now, that happens to be UB as far as most pugs are concerned.

Yeah, sorry, i didn't really answer the question.

I think that ursan has increased discrimination, BUT it has also reduced it.

Want to play interrupt mesmer?

2 Years ago it was very unlikely.
Now it is very unlikely, but you at least have another option.


Want to play Nuker?

You could 2 years ago.
Theres still a few non-ursan parties these days, i personally see a couple.

Its down to you if you hate it or not, but people who say its discriminative need to look back 2 years ago and tell me that didn't discriminate.

No, don't be sorry. I mean you hit what I meant on the head in a different way than I tried.

Meh, thats what you get by not sleeping much in over a week. My bad :P

Well, at least theres an easier version to read now instead of the random i put earlier.

a single skill shouldnt dominate a whole skillbar let alone the whole pve meta. balance shouldnt only be for the big boys

non profession specific skills = baed
pve grind title aligned skills = baed

I fail to see how something can increase and reduce at the same time.

Anyway, Ursan increased discrimination. Before Ursan, you could still get into pugs with your mesmer etc. Now, everyone uses Ursan (because of the hard time getting into pugs with underrated classes) so you're pretty much forced to use it. If you want to pug.

Wanted to play a mesmer before Ursan? You're right, it was unlikely. Pretty much no one would take you.

Want to play a mesmer now? Still unlikely that a group will take you.

What about Ursan? Well if you're using that, you're not really a mesmer anymore, are you?...Seeing that your entire mesmer bar has been replaced by a PvE skill...

There's only 2 professions among PvE pug's now:

Mo/E and Ursan/X.

I made a nec to play a nec, I made a paragon to play a paragon. I didn't make either of those to play as a button-mashing bear.

IMHO it simply shifted the elitism... from 2 warrior + 2 monks + as many nukers as possible to 5 or 6 Ursans (any class) + 2 or 3 monks. Any class... and I say that in general, because some groups refuse to take anything that's not an ursan warrior (those guys especially hate monk ursans, as they say they don't have enough armor... don't think they've heard about brawler insignias).

I don't think it was elitism that "forced" people to be a certain prof. to do stuff. It was simply a misunderstanding at what the other professions can do and coming up with something simple that you can PuG with.

If you consider the old DoA Obby Flesh group for a sec. It required 1 tank, some eles, a necro and monks. Everyone knew what their job was and how to do it-which made it easier to orgainize and get a group.

With UB you got the same deal-but this time it's anyone and everyone that has Ursan and some monkage.

Without an identifiable team build it's difficult to gather a PuG 'cause everyone has an opinion as to what can go in. One person might say "Ooo! Get a mesmer!" and another might say "No mesmer's suck! Get a necro!" and the end effect is that nothing gets done.

But with said team build everyone knows what you "need" and knows their role.

Now the elitism that comes from running UB is the belief that in order to be "good" you need r10 Norn and r8 LB-which isn't true. Back in our UB days (before we knew better :P) at DoA we took r1 Norn and LB's with us and did just fine.

And for those that say once Ursan goes, it's back to the War/Monk/Ele Trinity-seriously that setup is craptastic. If you don't want to run it, get your friends together and come up with a team build that works for all professions involved. The so called "Trinity" is only to streamline PuG groups 'cause the average PuG group is bad.

Take a look at the Fastest Elite Area Times thread-you'll find a wide variety of team builds and setups shown (granted the skills aren't shown, but half the fun is figuring out what they ran ).

To question #1 - Yes.

To question #2 - Sort of. Now there're two competing types of elitism.

On the one hand, there are the "NO URSAN" purists who think that only "scrubs" use Ursan. While there are lots of bad players that need to use Ursan to have half a chance of succeeding, there are many places that the only way to get into groups (and not only PUGs) as a Mesmer, Assassin, etc. is to use Ursan. These folks aren't handicapped by their skill, they're handicapped by the "trinity" mentality that permeates the elite areas of the game.

The main reason why Ursan replaced these cookie-cutters is because Ursan makes things go so much faster -the same reason why there have been cookie-cutter groups all along.

On the other hand, there are Ursan groups out there who are "R9+ only" groups. (I've even heard of cases where parties would only take R10 Warriors - with the monks, of course - because of the increased armor!) Again, these groups are interested in only one thing: Acheiving their objective in the fastest time possible. Of course, when they get so selective as to say "R10 Warriors only" there's reason to suspect that this group (or merely it's Monks) aren't that skilled at the game, giving rise to the "only scrubs use Ursan" stereotype.

Should three professions dominate the PvE meta then? Is there much of a difference between a specific skill build dominating versus a specific group build dominating?

The Long Answer
Yes, that's basically it. Back then, people simply wanted parties to consist of the "Trinity": Warrior Tank, Ele Nuker, and Monk. The rest of the slots could be filled with Necros and Mesmers and Rangers.

Then came Factions. Ritualists were smiled upon slightly, until they began dominating PvP etc. They also never replaced Monks as being the sole Healer in a group because regardless of any arguments, Monk healing is always greater and superior to any Ritualist healing. Divine Favor alone makes Monk healer better, regardless of any "player skill," "noobs" etc etc arguments.

Sins were shunned because the old Wammos played Sins like...a wammo, rushing into mobs and getting smacked. Sins became the new Wammo and probably remain so. However, they made great solo farmers, especially for Greens. Blame the Assassin for killing the once prosperous Greens market.

Then came Nightfall. Dervishes became the new wammo now because of the popular belief that a scythe wielding melee class would look so cool all the typical wammos would make one. For a time, Dervishes were the new wammo, as people played them as Warriors. Paragons went dead in PvE etc after Anet raped them time after time after time over and over.

Then came EoTN and Ursan Blessing. Now, anyone and their grandma could do anything anywhere because of one skill. All classes are basically equal now (hooray for equality!)...as long as they have r8 r9 r10 Ursan. So yes, Ursan solved the profession prejudice, but spawned a skill prejudice.

Now, I've played as Ursan and cleared the elite areas as an Ursan, and I agree that it is faster. However, I've also cleared the same areas with "old school" groups. Both work, but the difference is the time.

The reason why people love Ursan so much is because:

1. Easy to form groups.
2. Easy to use. 123412341234 repeat 5 12344321124 etc
3. Ursan groups (good ones anyways) clear areas faster.
4. Time is a great factor. Why clear X in 3 hours when you can clear in 1.5?

But even Ursan now has it's restrictions. If you are not rank 8+ ursan, in many cases pure rank 10, you are not wanted. Why? Time. Rank 10 Ursan kills faster than if you are not rank 10.

Reason why people hate Ursan:

1. It's boring. 123412341234 repeat.
2. Literally requires no skill. Any Ursan can go wammo/Leeroy and just spam the above keys.
3. People prefer to actually THINK and use SOME skill.
4. People actually want to use their characters as intended, not a generic skill.
5. Some do not have Eye of the North.
6. Some do not want to grind 160,000 points for one skill.
7. Some do grind, but hate grinding all over again to get Ursan for another character.
8. Ursan ~ Rank in PvP. Showing off Rank means nothing in PvE, and those who do this, PvErs laugh at j00. Boasting about being Ursan and its uberness makes you look worse than the old wammos. Even wammo sins are higher up in respect than some, if not all, Ursans.

The Short Answer

Elitism always existed, exists now and will forever exist in this game or any other online game.

In terms of discrimination it didn't really solve anything. Whereas you had to be X, Y or Z profession you now need to have this skill, and not everyone has this skill.

They only dominated the PvE Meta 'cause of the ease of making a PuG group.

It is a difficult concept, but yes you could get into groups, but after a while people realised you could tank/flame them/pick up loot then repeat. thats when a lot of classes became redundant or relegated to a few areas.

Ursan, though closed gateways due to title grind, opened gateways so everybody could do everything. Basically an "eye for an eye" - you grind up some god forsaken title but you can do FoW and UW in very nice times, good if your on a time limit.

Oh, now I get it.

Well, what you say is true, but atleast you didn't have to grind to get into groups back then, while now, you do. I guess that's one of the main reasons people dislike Ursan.

Gogogo!

12 chars.

But a proficient team can do that without UB. It's a crutch for those that are to lazy to do the research into the area, put together a team build and practice the area so you get more and more familiar.

For instance my alliance's core group did FoW the first time in a little over 4 hours. Second time, 3 hours. Third time 2 and a half hours. Last time we did it we were under 2 hours. AND that's including people who have never done FoW before-our third run, only half the people had successfully cleared FoW before in our group.

Granted you couldn't do that very well with a PuG, which is why crappy setups like UB and the Trinity became popular. You don't need UB for anything, but people use it for it's "Easy Button" mentality.

My 2 cents....

Most people have a main character, yes? Ok then, with the old system, why should Johnny Somebody be punished if he's a ritualist and wanted to pug in some elite mission? Nine times out of one hundred, Johnny was SoL. Didn't matter if Johnny was the best Ritualist this side of Cantha, because he made that mistake of picking a different profession he was disregarded. Now sure, Johnny might be in a guild but maybe pug'ing was his only solution. (Might sound like a stretch but is plausible)

Then, Ursan came out and now, Johnny was finally able to see what he was missing out on. Yeah, his skills got replaced but most of the time, he didn't mind. As long as he had fun and got to explore, he didn't mind what he was.

This is how Ursan Blessing is for many, many people.If you're going to say no to ursan, please offer a better solution to the original problem rather than just revert it back to how it was.

Ursan Blessing makes PUGs usable. I don't see what the big fuss is. If you're in a guild with a decent amount of good players, it's uncessary.

Back in my PuG'ing days, I would always be willing to take a ritualist.

The reason for a "forgotten" class is that people who come up with builds like the War/Monk/Ele setup is because they didn't know any better.

Hell even after I showed my core group that that mentaility is flawed I still get asked "Why don't we take a tank?" or "How about a second nuker?" or "Want me to run OF?"-I mean the list goes on.

People bash Ursan because they can. I don't see why people get in to such a state about it when there is always a 'cheap' workaround to PvE play. 'Cheap' being an efficient or exploitative method of succeeding (e.g. the book trick/gear trick back in 2005.)

There are guilds (including mine) who often refuse to use Ursan but will happily use "TNTF" and "Save Yourselves" Paragons. Using imbagons doesn't make you a genius, unique or better than other players - you're just abusing the next most efficient method of wiping PvE.

Elitism has always existed and people try to mantain their elite status by not using common Ursan and make a point of shouting "FAIL" whenever they see someone with a UB bar on a screenshot. They feel the need to proclaim their disgust so as to appear superior.

I don't care about prejudices and what others think. It doesn't matter now many ectos you have, you're a gold-buying, lowballing scammer to someone else. It doesn't matter how much fame you have, you're a HA fame-farming IWAY scrub to someone else. It doesn't matter how many maxed titles you have, you're a PvE carebear in some people's eyes.

The point being, don't give a monkeys what others think and go mash buttons with Ursan if it makes you happy.

I'm calling BS on this point. Ive never ever had a problem getting in a PUG as a mez in FoW or anywhere else. My mez is my main char, played for 3+ years.

Now with Ursan I cant find a grp that's non-Ursan for FoW. I don't have a problem with using Ursan in FoW and I understand why its used there. I just like to use a variety of skills vs the same 3 over and over, that is boring and there is no thought process needed. With using your full bar you can use different skills on the various types of baddies you encounter. This provides a nice variety to gameplay and makes you think a bit on what skill will be more effective on a particular baddie. Not that this involves a ton of thought, but it's more interesting than using Ursan.

That's the exact mentality that [Ursan Blessing] is letting many people break through. Yes UB does lead to grind which is never good but in this case, it is the lesser of the two evils in my eyes.

Yes.
First it was "Take X, Y or Z profession", and now it's "Take Rank 10 Ursan."

Although quite horrible, you can vary in the builds in TanknSpank.
Rangers can tank.
Eles can tank.
Warriors can tank.
Monks can tank.

Necros can nuke and heal and prot.
Mesmers can nuke.

And introducing the newer professions?

Dervs can tank.
Paragons can tank.
Rits can nuke.
Assassins can tank.

If you look carefully, any profession can do thing sort of thing, with no grinding requirement.
That was, in a way, PuG friendly, and stops the "Ursan allowed professions into PuGs" argument.

But, all in all, it was the mentality of the common PuG that created this mindset that Ursan opened a gateway for the neglected professions.

Sure, both were easy to run, but there was still a sense of prejudice. Ursan just made the PuGs choose less and go for the easy-win button.
With all the variables to TanknSpank, compared to Ursanway (2 professions, 9 different skills needed.) it's really quite funny, along with the fact you have to grind to run Ursanway.

And as mentioned in The Campfire, benefits for grind = bad, since rewarding time spent over skill just removes that for your common casual player.
Not only that, but to Ursanway you are required to purchase GW:EN aswell, again, where in TanknSpank, you could change some things.

And this also brings me to a small confusion: If Ursan, with the logic of some people, made it so a casual player can get these achievements, where did this casual player find the time to grind out his / her GW:EN title?

~Tyla

I'd add a thing to that.

9. Some also hate that they don't feel as "leet" anymore; their weapons have gone down in price, their ectos have done down in price. They see Ursan as a threat to their economy; the fact armbraces are 100k+10e on average has made a couple players go mad because anyone with time could afford one, and not the "leet" players anymore "OMG ever1 has my tormented shield its crap cuz its not leet anymore if every1 has it, QQ". I bet they're also the ones who think ursan users are scrubs with no skills.

I would say no if a Mesmer has a good solid build that can either degen or shutdown mobs then all the better and don't bring Monks into this.

Ursan was Anet's half-assed attempt to encourage pug'ing and fix the problem with certian classes not being able to get into pug's.

I can understand why they and others wouldn't wanna completely get rid of Ursan but I think it's still issue. My problem with it is how insanely powerful it is. If you saw the fast-times thread with all those screenshots, you'd see that more than half of them are Ursan teams with consumables. It's made just about every other team build obsolete and requires absolutely no skill. I'm sure anyone with a brain can see what's wrong with that. Some people don't care though, they'd rather brainlessly ursan their way to high-end loot such as Torment items. If Anet gave their players an even more broken godmode skill, they'd be on it fast.

imo it needs to be toned down. Casters that can carelessly charge into mobs with little chance of dying with their 200+hp/20+AL isn't right. Anet should decrease the numbers on both of those.

Honestly, out of all my time playing before Ursan, I never really saw a pug advertising "group lf mesmer".

Well lets look at the Elite Areas. For My post I will use DOA.
This only applies to PUG groups and thanks to the Tards in DOA I will never PUG again.

Before UB and cons people ran the trinity build. If an ele at the Gloom cave stepped up to far, or did not back up, or messed up just 1 time, party wipe.
same goes for any area there. How many times has a foundry group spent hours just to have 1 ele bring the wrong glyph and fail or party wipe? The endless yelling at each other and the death of fun. Not to mention it took an HOUR to get a group that may or may not make it.

Now we have UB and cons where any class can get into a party, if you over agro a little probably not a big deal. It takes 10 min to get into a group. At 1st this was fun. YAAY WE cleared All of DOA and slayed Malayx. Then it came down to if your Norn title isn't rank 9-10 the PUGS call you a noob and give ya the boot.

I can not/will not speak for others but I grew very tired of trying an elite area/failing due to no fault of mine and wasting literally hours of my life.
The real Elite players don't run UB or cons in HM and we do not PUG. We do it this way for the challenge. I party with guild members (if need be a hero or 2) that we can laugh and have a good time in team speak and the game. We are all seasoned and will not force a party wipe and if we do, we all have a laugh about it. I can try new builds without having them approved by anyone, at anytime but I will let them know the premise of it. If it fails I learn, If it works how to make it better. There is no stress If my guildies are not on, I can solo farm on just about all my characters at some point.

True elitism happens/ you become Elite after your done with PUGS, UB and cons. Its like a metamorphosis you almost feel bad for the "unevolved".

Can a casual player finish a campaign?

If that is true then, from the norn primary missions alone, that player should receive 4750 Norn Rep. points. Add in, a completed NM Handbook and you get 34750 points, not including points received from running around in Norn areas, hitting up shrines and killing things. That right there gets them to almost rank 6 (40k points).

Maybe they do a Path of Revelations run (takes like what, an hour to complete?) every other night or so and then in time, rank 10 ursan.

Right, you and every one else has proved their point on how OP'ed Ursan is but the fact still remains that the old pug mentality was deeply flawed as well. Yes, guilds are a partial answer but you're still limiting yourself to a certain group of people. Some people either don't have access to that or are looking for a wider range of fellow team mates.

In the end, the only answer I can think of would be an online utopia, dream world where all classes are equally welcomed and balanced. Maybe Guild Wars was like this at one point, hopefully GW2 will be like this but in the mean time, I'm trying to make due with what tools I have.

Alot of people do this-I won't deny it. But you have to consider that there are groups of us who are disappointed that there is a skill that will override your entire skill bar-for me (and my guild/alliance) that's a major issue with UB. GW is about making builds to overcome obstacles, not slapping on one skill and going "ROFL AGGRO!". That's why I don't support any of the blessings in their current form (and why I'm a big supporter of the Avatar change).

But UB isn't breaking through that mentality! Letting a mesmer play a mesmer is breaking through it, not letting a mesmer play as a bear (just to pick on mesmer's a bit :P). The only thing UB supports is laziness in terms of making builds.

I myself believe that solo farming builds hurt the economy most, but I usually just keep my nose out of buy, sell, trade because I'm bad with money. Always have been, always will be.

But if you think about it, you also need to get the quest in order to do it.
I'm not sure on the full detail of how many points per run, but I highly doubt it'd be enough compared to how fast and easy the common campaigns are.

Edit: I'd also like to add - Why should someone be forced to grind to join a PuG anyway?

To answer the question at the top, it has changed most groups to be skill-specific. But I rather have that than the profession specific. Everyone, who owns eotn, can be ursan. PuG is a lot easier to form. Allows more time to do things rather than sit around spamming GLF.

No argument there, a mez isn't highly desired ala monks or nukers, but I never was told to bugger off for being a mez either.