Can /Rants about Ursan at least ACKNOWLEDGE Complexity?

arcanemacabre

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
The point of Ursan is to make everything in Guild Wars doable, so that everyone can have a full Hall of Monuments and a reason to buy Guild Wars 2. And when Ursan blows away all PvE grind, ANet will simply have to extend grind to keep the players invested, or attract bored Ursanites with shiny toys - tonics, emotes, titles...
*shudder*

Wow. I think you just hit the nail on the head. That's exactly why Ursan has not been nerfed. I'm really starting to feel dirty about attempting to fill my HoM, now.

Yeesh.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic. I realize this could be read that way, so I just wanted to clarify.

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by doudou_steve
.... In every pugs, or me with my heroes our only *strategy* is : warrior tank, Ele cast, monks heal, ranger lure and interrupt-woohooo that's what i call a strategy and it's the only one in guild wars i have seen so far in 2.5 years. ...
I feel bad for you. I do. Never experienceing anything else than rubbish tankway.

macie28

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

Surrey, BC

[DL] Desolation Lords

A/

I agree with the OP, if you guys can stop hating for a second and try to open your minds, that this is a game and people want to play it to have fun. Majority of the players are casuals and Ursan is a good way for them to explore the game further. I see Ursan flamers as elitist and just want to keep their "leetness".

All I know is, when Ursan was introduced, I got my guildies to get their Norn titles up, so that we can enjoy an elite mission run together without the hassle of setting up builds,waiting for people to get on because they're running the "specialized" monk/ele/rit/watever build, trying to find a good pug without them leaving in the middle of the run, etc etc. For most people (casuals especially), gaming time is limited and thus valuable. Ursan made the game more fun for MORE people, but obviously Anet can't please everyone. Majority wins tho.

good job on the post OP

Surena

Surena

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2007

N/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by macie28
I agree with the OP, if you guys can stop hating for a second and try to open your minds, that this is a game and people want to play it to have fun. Majority of the players are casuals and Ursan is a good way for them to explore the game further. I see Ursan flamers as elitist and just want to keep their "leetness".
With half a brain you can reach that "leetness" too, it's not hard, especially since you obviously have a guild full enough of active members.

This is a bad excuse to justify degenerative gameplay where 3 buttons count and not how you manage energy, watch aggro, hexes, conditions, target priorization. Yet PvE is not GvG, there's plenty room for forgiveness so it's cheap to state that Ursan opened the previously door with limited access for "everyone". Seems like "everyone" is too stupid for PvE then.

Any game needs a certain level of challenge to make it more exciting.

Quote:
All I know is, when Ursan was introduced, I got my guildies to get their Norn titles up, so that we can enjoy an elite mission run together without the hassle of setting up builds,waiting for people to get on because they're running the "specialized" monk/ele/rit/watever build, trying to find a good pug without them leaving in the middle of the run, etc etc. For most people (casuals especially), gaming time is limited and thus valuable. Ursan made the game more fun for MORE people, but obviously Anet can't please everyone. Majority wins tho.

good job on the post OP
Oh ok, so your whole guild needed Ursan to act and be able to play as a guild. Nice.

Turtle222

Turtle222

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

:D:D

D/W

*sigh* Do people not get it? Ursan is not going to be nerfed and even if it does...could you speak and rant about then instead of now, where any pitiful/witty opinion you make may at least have an effect.

Anet read the forums, and they have weighed it out time and again i'm sure...but the fact remains that TOA is filled with HM fow ursan clear groups, Slavers is done by ursan groups with 1 necro, DoA is done with 10/8 ursan groups. There is nothing complex about the way we use it, why we use it, or when we use it - it's simply a popular idea, and any opinion ursan haters make only add up to 1-2% of the population.

Pugs never did have any skill or diversity to begin with in elite areas, i really don't think ursan made it worse. Guildies are there for a reason

You'd think people would have learned by now..

Juk3n

Juk3n

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Tyria

Astral Guard [AG]

W/R

Last Night - a FoW armor clad Ele with 15 maxed titles joined my NM group for a Mission and Banana in Iron Mines Of Mollydolly, not only did he insit on using his Sabway Necros, but little did i know, he was an Ursan...

Wheres the sense of Pride..a normal mode tyria mission..Ursan??

He ran 50 ft. infront of everyone, aggroed everything in sight, which the rest of us managed to kill, Pinged Inquisitor and died!!

Rest of us killed him and then..this ursan left, it truly was the most usless display of Guild Warsing i have ever seen in my entire GW career (a damn long time).

All that because of 1 overpowered skill.

Ursan makes idiots out of already bad players, and that , friends, is the true enemy here.

I dont think the OP understands, what most of us bought GW for in the first place, imo, we bought it exactly because there were no 1 powerful sword to rule them all, no 1 set of armor to be the best and last and certainly not least..

*turns up the caps

BECAUSE THERE WERE NO SKILLS LIKE URSAN IN IT.

Ursan is the Anti - GW philosophy imho.

Angelic Upstart

Angelic Upstart

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

South Coast UK

[SBS] [RETIRED]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by macie28
".

so that we can enjoy an elite mission run together without the hassle of setting up builds,
For most people (casuals especially), gaming time is limited and thus valuable. Ursan made the game more fun for MORE people, but obviously Anet can't please everyone. Majority wins tho.

good job on the post OP

The 'hassle' as you put it, used to be part and parcel of what made this game as good as it once was.

People got better because they had to formulate thier own builds , by trial and error, no PvX.

Also, elite areas were accessible to the people who had put the time in to be able to operate successfully in those areas, casual players who did not were not able to go into to them due to thier inexperience, this is where UB has broken away from the principles of GW.

A bad player will still be a bad player with UB, they will still over aggro, show no spatial awareness or have any vestige of tactical nous whatsoever, and no idea of how to work within a team.

That is why PvE skills like UB are in my opinion just total fail.


"Pugs never did have any skill or diversity to begin with in elite areas, i really don't think ursan made it worse. Guildies are there for a reason"


LOL that statement is total bollocks, closely followed by this little gem,

"There is nothing complex about the way we use it, why we use it, or when we use it - it's simply a popular idea, and any opinion ursan haters make only add up to 1-2% of the population."

People use it because , human nature , like water seeks the path of least resistance, water however seeks the path of least resistance because of its physics, people are by nature lazy.

This game is unrecognisable from the first chapter, as it encourages, bad players to get worse, by not challenging them.

ogre_jd

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Canadia

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juk3n
All that because of 1 overpowered skill.
No. All that because of a Leeroy. He would've done the same thing with an Earth-based build getting no support from the team and would've ended up every bit as dead.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

You think playing Ursan is complex? I'd love to see you try a real skill bar with lots of utility.

Sirkl

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Apathy Inc

Wow a whinning thread about people whinning about ursan.

It isn't a playing style, its a skill (with lack of skill going along with it). Its just the pve version of the iway problem in ha back in the day, its all so the nublets can feel like they are awsome at something.

If you want to use it go ahead just don't expect people to say its complex when 5/8 of your party have the same 5 skills.

Everytime someone uses UB a kitten dies.

As the winner of this thread said
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
This is what ursan is:

Frank Dudenstein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

It's really very simple:

- Some people believe elite areas and hard mode should be accessible to all players, casual and hardcore

- Some people believe that elite areas and hard mode should be an accomplishment that requires hardcore dedication

Personally I believe the latter, but the OP (and Anet apparently) believe the former.

End of story.

angmar_nite

angmar_nite

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2007

[SNOW] of [YUM]

E/

Why call them elite and hard if they aren't????

Trub

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

To explain as best I can with my limited english:

GW was touted as THE game to have for challenge, beauty, and rewards for GAMERS.
All video games have to have their 'elites'...be it items, weapons, or players.
It is the 'goal'...to have and be the best of the best.
To reach that goal used to mean...leveling your toon, learning and capping the needed skills for your proffesion, and using them wisely.
You completed the required tasks, collected your rewards...and THEN you were ready to either:
1.) Go for the end-game elite rewards..(HM, ELITE missions ect.-PvE)
2.) Have the max skills, armors, weapons to explore into the world of PvP.

Faction only skills, UB and others have made this transition fail.
People saw what the elite players were gaining after years of trial and error....demanded they could have those wonderous things too, but they wanted to be 'casual'...not invest the efforts as others had (Be it due to family ...work..school, LAZY ect. )

ANet in it's 'please the plastic card holders' wisdom decided the 'elite' was no more.
The player that invested so much time, effort, and planning for the 'end-game' goals...no longer has a sense of pride for their devotion to a wonderful past time.
ALL games have the goal to compete, obtain, enjoy, and WIN.
ANet, I hate to say it...when you introduced faction only, and Blessing 'skills' into the game..it kind of ruined the acheivements alot of people were hoping to aquire thru challenges promoted in the original spirit of GW.

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by angmar_nite
Why call them elite and hard if they aren't????
Because unlike the rest of the game, you cannot just sit and wait for the Henchmen to do the job.

In the rest of the game, you are mostly making quests, and watching cinematics, and the H/H can easily take care of the killing.

In Hard mode and Elite areas, you are supposed to make more.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
Because unlike the rest of the game, you cannot just sit and wait for the Henchmen to do the job.

In the rest of the game, you are mostly making quests, and watching cinematics, and the H/H can easily take care of the killing.

In Hard mode and Elite areas, you are supposed to make more.
You are supposed to 'make more' with Ursan???

No, you are supposed make more with SKILLED players, not noobs with Ursan.

Ursan to PVE = IWAY to PVP. I call it Noobway.

But dont worry guys! Anet WILL nerf it after we complain for three more years.

angmar_nite

angmar_nite

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2007

[SNOW] of [YUM]

E/

Elite and Hard in terms of reward yes, but also in terms of difficulty! An Ursan in HM now has a far easier time than a proph player two years ago.

Frank Dudenstein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trub
To explain as best I can with my limited english:

GW was touted as THE game to have for challenge, beauty, and rewards for GAMERS.
All video games have to have their 'elites'...be it items, weapons, or players.
It is the 'goal'...to have and be the best of the best.
To reach that goal used to mean...leveling your toon, learning and capping the needed skills for your proffesion, and using them wisely.
You completed the required tasks, collected your rewards...and THEN you were ready to either:
1.) Go for the end-game elite rewards..(HM, ELITE missions ect.-PvE)
2.) Have the max skills, armors, weapons to explore into the world of PvP.

Faction only skills, UB and others have made this transition fail.
People saw what the elite players were gaining after years of trial and error....demanded they could have those wonderous things too, but they wanted to be 'casual'...not invest the efforts as others had (Be it due to family ...work..school, LAZY ect. )

ANet in it's 'please the plastic card holders' wisdom decided the 'elite' was no more.
The player that invested so much time, effort, and planning for the 'end-game' goals...no longer has a sense of pride for their devotion to a wonderful past time.
ALL games have the goal to compete, obtain, enjoy, and WIN.
ANet, I hate to say it...when you introduced faction only, and Blessing 'skills' into the game..it kind of ruined the acheivements alot of people were hoping to aquire thru challenges promoted in the original spirit of GW.
This is exactly the point ... it captures the frustration of the players that DID work hard and now see their accomplishments so diminished. I would be a little disappointed too.

But I believe Anet had noble intentions with UB. The thing you are missing is this: some of the elite areas and hard mode are VERY difficult for some classes such as mesmers and paragons, because basically no one will let them in their group. You can say 'find a leet guild noob' but really that isn't a viable option for everybody.

And these are elite, dedicated players, but hamstrung by the misguided 'view' the community has on their chosen class.

So Anet tried to level the playing field a little, by creating a tactic that any class could use at a high level. Unfortunately they missed the mark badly and ended up making the game far too easy.

It's funny, I don't see the same level of vitriol directed at consumables. But they are just as bad. UB could disappear tommorrow and consumables still make the game ultra-easy.

Obviously Anet made a conscious decision that casual players should be able to easily complete elite areas. It's disppointing to the hardcore, but hey it's their game and they are entitled to follow their own business model.

Trub

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

Quote:
It's funny, I don't see the same level of vitriol directed at consumables. But they are just as bad. UB could disappear tommorrow and consumables still make the game ultra-easy.
I was to busy focusing on skills that I let that gem pass...sorry..

But I agree..I have similar SKILLS on my bar that are all I need for my speed boosts.
Cons are not needed as badly as everyone thinks.

MarlinBackna

MarlinBackna

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

[TAM]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trub
I was to busy focusing on skills that I let that gem pass...sorry..

But I agree..I have similar SKILLS on my bar that are all I need for my speed boosts.
Cons are not needed as badly as everyone thinks.
Well, of course cons are not needed, but they most certainly make the game (especially HM) much, much easier. Which is why they are used in many situations in high-end PvE. They allow ~30 min times for HM Urgoz and FoW. Ursan does help in those situations, but not as much as +100 health, +10 energy, +1 attribute, -5 dmg reduction, crit prevention, +10 armor, and 25% faster running and casting to all party members.

[DE]

[DE]

Hugs and Kisses

Join Date: Oct 2005

Scars Meadows

I didn't read this whole thread because I'm a lazy bastard but here is my quick thought.

Ursan needs to be balanced to the point where their is enough cushioning for the average player to beat an Elite zone with it fairly easily; but it should not be better or faster then the skillbars that hardcore players put together.

Ursan should be something that bad PUGs use but their should be better options out there for more experienced players. Unfortunately Ursan > Pretty much every team build ever.

Ursan needs to be viable for bad players so they can accomplish their goals but it should not be so overpowered where the good players are forced to use it to speed up runs so that they can match those of bad players who use the bear.

Yes I stated pretty much the same thing three times - because repetition rocks.

Alex the Great

Alex the Great

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2007

America.....got a problem with that?

[Lite]

W/

this is the smartest thread posted in about a month


/throws away sarcastic anti-ursan one-liners

okashii

okashii

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

E/

Ursan Blessing can be useful:

when I was doing Catacombs of Kathandrax over and over with H/H to get a Emerald Blade it enabled me <with a proper anti fire setup> to easily run to that dungeon from Doomlore, skipping whole Burning Forest and half of lvl2 of the dungeon

and using Ursan and spirits as a E/Rt I farmed myself a Rajazan's Fervor (green caster sword) because I didnt find any on sale

many ppl think ursan is soooo much overpowered but its only powerful on a high rank and with a 4-5 other ursans that still need 2-3 HB monks to survive :P

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Uhm. That's the problem - it's powerful only on high rank, so you need to grind your ass on it. And to get into ursan group, you must be one of 5 or 6 ursans or monks. Once I tried to replace ursan with elementalist. Sure, dmg was bigger... But I couldn't spam knockdown like ursans, couldn't deal dmg so fast and without energy loss like them and I didn't tank ;o

Jack of All Trades = bad, just bad for any game. It's like someone would put a BFG in Counter Strike or +10000 dmg shotgun to WoW.

okashii

okashii

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
It's like someone would put a BFG in Counter Strike
actually the beam from a BFG has a slow travel time so as a weapon it doesnt pass the "7headshots in under a minute" rule...

whoops...thats a bit off topic

Th Fooster

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2008

Twice Dawns The Day[WoT]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
complexity? do you even know what that word means?

i will admit that Ursan is one way to play the game.
i will never admit that it is a complex way to play the game.

This is what ursan is:

this guy and others that share his point of view.. I have put out a chalenge in the fastest times thread anyone that can beat our HM UW clear time
(currently 29 minutes) and provides more than one source of proof, will recieve 10 k frem me to everyone in that team.
now we use ursan BUT I DARE you to pull off what we do! i dare you! i kow, you wil respond to this by syain "i could if i wanted too but[insert excuse here]" but we use 2 ursans. and to this day there are very few guilds that have come even close to pulling off the way we operate.

before you assume ALL ursan builds are easy go here...http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10277528

i garantee you you will fail the first few time and it will take you at least a month before you even get anywhere near those times and that is th OLD version... the easiest one we play!
wh have even more advanced tactics we do now but have not posted them

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Ursan is simply Guild Wars' cheat code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro
THIS.

No one at ANet is ever going to admit it, but that is precisely what Ursan is.

Remember I'm a mesmer, how do I complete The Deep? That was posted only eight short months ago.

Remember the crying about Mallyx, and how he could only be killed with a glitch, and how the devs must have used the then-unreleased PvE skills to beat him a "legit" way? Mallyx with your heros happened only one month after the above thread.

Guild Wars is over. Ursan has killed it.

The point of Ursan is to make everything in Guild Wars doable, so that everyone can have a full Hall of Monuments and a reason to buy Guild Wars 2. And when Ursan blows away all PvE grind, ANet will simply have to extend grind to keep the players invested, or attract bored Ursanites with shiny toys - weapon skins, tonics, emotes, titles...

Oh, wait.



And the biggest kicker? With ANet refusing to change Ursan in any way and staying silent on the matter, we effectively have our confirmation. Each day of ANet inaction legitimizes Ursan even further. Now, if Ursan ever does see any sort of change, we'll see the same reaction as when Rockmolders and HoD swords were "fixed:" people will complain because the inaction makes them feel entitled to hold on to the original version.

If everything ANet has done in Guild Wars is indeed a learning experience for future games, as they've claimed, I really hope this part of it does not slip by come GW2 design time.
Excellent post, everyone should read this.

My biggest issue with Ursan is that it's changed the objectives of Guild Wars. For most people, the game is no longer about making fun builds, playing as a team, making friends, and thinking your way through encounters. Ursan removes the thought and fun from this part of the game, because the correct answer is always "roll a bear".

Most of the pro-ursan folks like it because "it lets them get things done". That would be a nice sentiment if we were digging ditches and wanted to get it over with, but this is a video game, it should be fun to play. The most fun I've ever had in Guild Wars was putting together team builds with guildies to clear UW, FoW, The Deep, and Urgoz. At the time, the rewards were less than they are now, but they were actually fun. By contrast, I've done UW ursan and FoW a couple time with alliance people, and they're not fun at all. Yes, I get more shiny trinkets faster, but they're meaningless as nothing of myself really went into them. Guild Wars pve is now focused more on the carrot at the end of the stick than the journey to get the reward.

Th Fooster

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2008

Twice Dawns The Day[WoT]

Mo/

i still havent seen any of you people actualy try the team build posten in the link above.... yet you all have these "wise insights"

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th Fooster
i still havent seen any of you people actualy try the team build posten in the link above.... yet you all have these "wise insights"
There's a problem with a game when it changes from "Using the tools we have available, how can we complete the hardest area in the game?" to "Using very simple tools, how can we completely curbstomp the hardest area in the game so we can get our cheese more quickly?".

Th Fooster

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2008

Twice Dawns The Day[WoT]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
There's a problem with a game when it changes from "Using the tools we have available, how can we complete the hardest area in the game?" to "Using very simple tools, how can we completely curbstomp the hardest area in the game so we can get our cheese more quickly?".

exactly! the complexity is a result of teh desire to sped clear... speed clear to open more chests...=more money we did not complicate it just for teh sake of complicating something, our build eveolved to that over time because we enjoy only using 1 con set to clear uw!

so what exactl is the problem your describing?? narrow it down.....
whats the problem with opening a chest faster? and where do we neglect to use the tools available as you say? i run no ursan too and do the same thing


however.. If you call UW the hardest area in the game... then its obvious you tried our build and FAILED and so you bash it as a bad thing

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th Fooster
this guy and others that share his point of view.. I have put out a chalenge in the fastest times thread anyone that can beat our HM UW clear time
(currently 29 minutes) and provides more than one source of proof, will recieve 10 k frem me to everyone in that team.
now we use ursan BUT I DARE you to pull off what we do! i dare you! i kow, you wil respond to this by syain "i could if i wanted too but[insert excuse here]" but we use 2 ursans. and to this day there are very few guilds that have come even close to pulling off the way we operate.

before you assume ALL ursan builds are easy go here...http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10277528

i garantee you you will fail the first few time and it will take you at least a month before you even get anywhere near those times and that is th OLD version... the easiest one we play!
wh have even more advanced tactics we do now but have not posted them
Being the most advanced ursan group is like saying youre the smartest person in the special olympics.

Ursan is Guild Wars simplified.

Yes you can add complex tactics to it, and im sure good and better players can implement it in cool new ways.

But the point remains the same, Ursan Blessing makes it easy. It makes it simpler.

And the motivating factor is speed and greed. Simple.

Zehnchu

Zehnchu

Popcorn Fetish

Join Date: Dec 2005

[GODS]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th Fooster
now we use ursan BUT I DARE you to pull off what we do!
I don’t know whether to cry or laugh or just do both at the same time.

Guess this is what happens when parents let their kids do UB.

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

I will compare Ursan to IWAY.

The original versions of IWAY were very very simple, but as the IWAY build kept getting nerfed, new and better versions of iway, using more complex tactics evolved.

Ursan has not been nerfed, so the build has yet to evolve and reach complexity or balance vs the other skills in the game. Its never been adjusted, never been changed.

Its still in its infancy as a team build and even you "complex" tactics are still just, at the bottom it all, variations of tank/spank.


Its like this.

I drive a Manual Car. You drive an Automatic car. I drive the car. You let the car drive you.

Knight O Cydonia

Knight O Cydonia

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

No Goats No Glory [BAAA]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by makosi
People bash Ursan because they can. I don't see why people get in to such a state about it when there is always a 'cheap' workaround to PvE play. 'Cheap' being an efficient or exploitative method of succeeding (e.g. the book trick/gear trick back in 2005.)

There are guilds (including mine) who often refuse to use Ursan but will happily use "TNTF" and "Save Yourselves" Paragons. Using imbagons doesn't make you a genius, unique or better than other players - you're just abusing the next most efficient method of wiping PvE.

Elitism has always existed and people try to maintain their elite status by not using common Ursan and make a point of shouting "FAIL" whenever they see someone with an UB bar on a screenshot. They feel the need to proclaim their disgust so as to appear superior.

I don't care about prejudices and what others think. It doesn't matter now many ectos you have, you're a gold-buying, lowballing scammer to someone else. It doesn't matter how much fame you have, you're a HA fame-farming IWAY scrub to someone else. It doesn't matter how many maxed titles you have, you're a PvE carebear in some people's eyes.

The point being, don't give a monkeys what others think and go mash buttons with Ursan if it makes you happy.
^ The truth

Why do people get so upset about Ursan? If you don't like it, don't use it. Other people using it doesn't affect your game so why moan?

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

PvE Ursan = PvP toucher

Good for loot = good for balth faction farming

Yet they both "phail" in same way. It just depends on the result one wants.

But unlike pvp, where toucher could only exist due to meta and boon prot, which couldn't outheal it, the ZB prot killed it.

In PvE, nothing changes, so Ursan remains unbalanced. Whether balance matters in PvE or not (depends on person) - I don't believe many would go praising the greatest RA touchers ever. Would they?

kostolomac

kostolomac

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

Serbia

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by englitdaudelin
I know forums don't lend themselves to nuanced discussions much, what with people having the attention spans of crack-addled gerbils, all whanging away for the snippiest one-line throwaway +1 crack possible.

But lines like this, from another thread, irk the unholy bejeezus out of me:
"Ursan is the only skill used in PvE now anyways..."

So, let's parse. Let's deconstruct. My first option in reading this is, "hey another sarcastic comment about the overuse of Ursan. But s/he can't REALLY believe that...right?"

My second possible reading: "S/He really believes this." (based on reading the ToA, DoA, Ring of Fire Spams, this might not be a bad assumption.

This kind of oversimplifying elitism (I.E. I'm better than you because I don't use Ursan (because I can't be bothered to max out my title, because I was leet without Ursan (because I'm expressing the gamer version of indie rock cred))) is poisoning forums, posts, and even in-game chats.

Please, please, please: at least pay lip service to the complexities of playstyles running around this game, not just the simple differences between PvP and PvE and Ursan and not. I (still) play every day, on rangers and rits, mesmers and monks, paragons and necros. I'm working to max Ursan. I use Ursan with friends in HM. I use a regular bar in HM (yes, on a non-monk toon). I Ursan in NM for grins. I sell, I buy. I feel guilty about playing Ursan. I feel guilty about not maxing my Ursan. I sneer at rank 2 Ursans trying to hop in my group for FoW--even at my own R2 Ursans. I have 35 skill bars for a ranger that don't involve the bear. I like to move quickly. I like to take my time and fight epic battles. I hate redoing zones. I love redoing zones. I hate being asked to be Ursan. I feel pleased when my R8 Ursan's invited to join groups. I get annoyed at guildmates who tell me to "hide your rank." I hide my rank. I get annoyed at being asked to do Ursan so another guildie can get a dungeon. I look for guildies to help do dungeons--using Ursan.

Do I get bored playing Ursan? Sometimes. So...easy solution: I don't play Ursan. But do I also admit that Ursan's made the game quicker, without costing fun? Damn straight. I was in a number of PuG and Guild Groups that failed various dungeons, wiped in FoW, couldn't Clear The Chamber...and then came Ursan. How many times does someone need to try before a shortcut looks damned appealing?

When we jumped into HM, the margins of error shrank a little: 60% DP sends you home. HM in UW or FoW, and you go home on the first wipe. There became less room for monks still learning their craft. Less room for a resto rit with fragile spirits. Less room for a mesmer running a bar that 60% of the gamers can't understand. Ursan expands that margin of error. Armor and health bonuses let you clip a couple of extra aatxes aggro bubbles by accident. Really, do we find extra "wiggle room" such a bad thing? As a monk, leet as you are, isn't it nice to heal a player who's got some higher armor? As a tank, leet as you are, isn't it nice to have the health?

I won't argue that Ursan's a great thing "for the game." On a deep, philosophical level--one concerned with the game, with developing a community, with developing skill, with problem-solving and build-developing--I can't argue that. Ursan made the game one where thinking and build synthesis has gone out the window.

But Ursan's a great thing "for the player." For the average player, for the hella-good player, for the noob and the newb and the newbie. I don't have to spend hours looking for a group that accepts an extra ranger, or rit, or mes. I don't have to convince people that paras are good, or rits can too heal. People who know tons about the game don't need to wait to find more people who know tons about the game--they can direct a group of compliant, clueless bears through a HM vanquish--and come out SUCCESSFUL--and OMG! Maybe even have a little fun. Maybe get a gold. Map an area. Work on a title (let's please not start that argument: some want a title, some don't, it's one of the many complexities of this huge game). Get an ecto, or shard, or gem drop.

Sorry, but I have kids, and a life, and a game to play. I don't want to spend hours forming a party--except for those days when I do. I don't love Ursan--except for when it helps me build my bank, my HoM, my small pile of ecto, my friendships with guildies. I get bored with it--except when I'm looking at the monsters and the art and the scenery, not my skill bar. This isn't hypocrisy, it's complexity. Get used to it.

So this is my request: at least pay lip service to the possibility that the skill(s) you bash, that the playstyle you disparage--whatever skills, whatever playstyle, ANY skills, ANY playstyle--is only ONE of many skills, many ways, we all play this game. Admit the complexities of using Ursan, the ambivalence you feel about the skill and how fast it's let you through things, the weird indie ethos of "I refuse to use something that commonplace," and the similarly weird ethos of "I refuse to learn a full 8-skill bar," and the similarly weird ethos of "you're just an elitist PvPer" and everything in between.

Respect the variety of things we all might do, any given day, in the game.

/complexity and ambiguity.
This guy speaks the truth. IMO the only thing UB changed is that it lowered the line between good and average players. When I want a real challenge in Guild Wars i visit heroes' ascent. Currently the only thing i did with UB was a NM fow run. And i had fun , not because the enemies dropped dead like flies , it's because i enjoyed the scenery , chatting with people and having a good time.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight O Cydonia
^ The truth

Why do people get so upset about Ursan? If you don't like it, don't use it. Other people using it doesn't affect your game so why moan?
It affects everyone that plays elite areas.

90% of players using Ursan = less people to play with with real builds.

Sorry, but finding a non Ursan group for elite areas nowadays is a joke. Also, hard mode isnt supposed to be as easy as Ursan makes it, it is meant to be hard.

But you should all know by now that Anet simply doesnt care about how broken their game is, they think everything is fine regardless of how many people complain.

People that enjoy Ursan are the same as people that enjoyed IWAY.

kostolomac

kostolomac

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

Serbia

Me/

PvE in Guild Wars was broken way before ursan.

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

GW1 is near it's end...it's a good time to let the new players experience and achieve the things we veterans have been spoiled with for the last 3 years. I mean really...who gives a damn? Let them fill their HoM for GW2. I think it's a nice gesture by Anet to the casual and the new. But maybe that's just me. Either way I don't give a crap.

Esan

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
Sorry, but finding a non Ursan PUG for elite areas nowadays is a joke.
Fixed that for you.

If you can't put together a non-Ursan group even with friends/guildmates/alliancemates, then maybe you should find better circles to run in.

(Why would you want a group anyway? Nearly everything is doable with heroes and hench, and this includes every dungeon in HM, all vanquishing, and all but one mission in HM. The notable exceptions are the elite missions and godzones, but if you are looking for groups for them, chances are you are a farmer in which case complaining about Ursan is just hypocrisy.)

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th Fooster
this guy and others that share his point of view.. I have put out a chalenge in the fastest times thread anyone that can beat our HM UW clear time
(currently 29 minutes) and provides more than one source of proof, will recieve 10 k frem me to everyone in that team.
now we use ursan *post tails off...*
Bolded. Pay attention. You use Ursan, so how does this HM time seem at all respectable? RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing idiot. Not to mention you and your petty wannabe-elite-guild didn't even make the build, and had to use that guide you linked to.

Oh, and 10k for each person? Really, if all you can offer is that much - there really is no importance in this challenge.

/sigh. You fail more than the OP.

P.S.
Quote:
Guild: Blood Gods Wrath
lol

whoru?