Quote:
| Don't Dread The Grind! |
An interesting read to say the least...
Interesting article on MMOsite.com involving GW and Grind
Nightow
An interesting read to say the least...
The Toe Tag
Too easy they QQ Noob
Too hard they QQ Grind
Too hard they QQ Grind
-Sonata-
From the sounds of it, by his "definition" everything in every game is "grind" then. Doesn't make much sense. A few commenters summed it up better. One that stands out:
"When Guild Wars FORCES me, without CHOICE, to repeat the same action over and over (see level up games like WoW, Flyff, Knight, AoC, etc) without quests, missions, or furthering the story then I'll say Guild Wars is "grind"."
"When Guild Wars FORCES me, without CHOICE, to repeat the same action over and over (see level up games like WoW, Flyff, Knight, AoC, etc) without quests, missions, or furthering the story then I'll say Guild Wars is "grind"."
MithranArkanere
"The goal is items"? What? The one that wrote that obviously never played Guild Wars.
And we have unlock packs for PvP.
The only grind in GW is the grind titles. Nothing else, they aren't mentioned at all.
That article is a puny, bad, sad joke.
And we have unlock packs for PvP.
The only grind in GW is the grind titles. Nothing else, they aren't mentioned at all.
That article is a puny, bad, sad joke.
Ralgha
PvE Guild Wars is nothing but grind. Think about it, there is only one thing to do in PvE Guild Wars, KILL MOBS. That's it. There is nothing else. Crafting you say? All crafing is, is collecting a bunch of materials (by KILLING MOBS), and then handing them to a crafter, who hands you your item. Some of these crafters you can't even get to unless you, wait for it, KILL MOBS.
Titles? Same thing. Cartographer, you kill mobs, or run from mobs trying to kill you if you really want to get particular. Vanqush, that's whole point is killing mobs. Skill capper? Kill specific mobs. Missions? Kill mobs, to get to a point, which requires you to kill mobs.
Hell you can't even travel without killing mobs. Want to go do a dungeon? Well with a few exceptions, you gotta kill mobs to get to it, or run from mobs trying to kill you. Once you get to the dungeon, what do you do there? Kill mobs.
Want to go look at some of the scenery? Gotta kill mobs first. Open some chests? Gotta kill mobs to get there, or run from mobs trying to kill you.
I've mostly left GW behind and moved on to EVE, because EVE has things to do besides kill mobs.
Titles? Same thing. Cartographer, you kill mobs, or run from mobs trying to kill you if you really want to get particular. Vanqush, that's whole point is killing mobs. Skill capper? Kill specific mobs. Missions? Kill mobs, to get to a point, which requires you to kill mobs.
Hell you can't even travel without killing mobs. Want to go do a dungeon? Well with a few exceptions, you gotta kill mobs to get to it, or run from mobs trying to kill you. Once you get to the dungeon, what do you do there? Kill mobs.
Want to go look at some of the scenery? Gotta kill mobs first. Open some chests? Gotta kill mobs to get there, or run from mobs trying to kill you.
I've mostly left GW behind and moved on to EVE, because EVE has things to do besides kill mobs.
BlackSephir
Quote:
| Grinding: The repetition of an action in order to achieve a goal. |
And of course we have tards jumping about claiming that grind is a part of rpgs and mmos. Jesus Christ.
Alicendre
With such a description of grinding, well, everything is grind. Most people wake up in the morning, eat their breakfast, shower if they don't do it in the evening, wash their teeth, go to work... Everyday.
OMG life haz grind!!1 nerf plz!!
And I believe this guy only played the 10-hours trial.
Really, "play for items"... WTF? Items are almost free, even in PvE! And don't get me started on PvP, there are unlock packs.
Any grind on this game (well, except for PvE skills that is) is for looks, or because people like it.
OMG life haz grind!!1 nerf plz!!
And I believe this guy only played the 10-hours trial.
Really, "play for items"... WTF? Items are almost free, even in PvE! And don't get me started on PvP, there are unlock packs.
Any grind on this game (well, except for PvE skills that is) is for looks, or because people like it.
Operative 14
Did that guy even play Guild Wars?
I was under the impression that the items he was speaking of (competatively high level weapons and max armor) could be gotten through the game just by playing. The grind he was talking about, with people farming for ectos and griffons, is all optional as a way to make money. Not to buy max level items for PvP.
I'm one of those people that doesn't do titles becuase there is too much 'grind' in them. But, my lord, this guys definition of grinding seems to be simply playing the game.
I was under the impression that the items he was speaking of (competatively high level weapons and max armor) could be gotten through the game just by playing. The grind he was talking about, with people farming for ectos and griffons, is all optional as a way to make money. Not to buy max level items for PvP.
I'm one of those people that doesn't do titles becuase there is too much 'grind' in them. But, my lord, this guys definition of grinding seems to be simply playing the game.
MithranArkanere
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ralgha
PvE Guild Wars is nothing but grind. Think about it, there is only one thing to do in PvE Guild Wars, KILL MOBS. That's it. There is nothing else. Crafting you say? All crafing is, is collecting a bunch of materials (by KILLING MOBS), and then handing them to a crafter, who hands you your item. Some of these crafters you can't even get to unless you, wait for it, KILL MOBS.
Titles? Same thing. Cartographer, you kill mobs, or run from mobs trying to kill you if you really want to get particular. Vanqush, that's whole point is killing mobs. Skill capper? Kill specific mobs. Missions? Kill mobs, to get to a point, which requires you to kill mobs. Hell you can't even travel without killing mobs. Want to go do a dungeon? Well with a few exceptions, you gotta kill mobs to get to it, or run from mobs trying to kill you. Once you get to the dungeon, what do you do there? Kill mobs. Want to go look at some of the scenery? Gotta kill mobs first. Open some chests? Gotta kill mobs to get there, or run from mobs trying to kill you. I've mostly left GW behind and moved on to EVE, because EVE has things to do besides kill mobs. |
Many of them can be done without a SINGLE enemy death.
The Wall? Run around an pick items.
Tihark orchard? In half of it you don't have to kill a single thing.
Gwen's Mission? You cannot kill at all!
Dragon's Throat challenge is all about killing stuff. Most GW is NOT. Killing stuff is something you make in the middle.
You cannot pretend the game to be just about walking around and talking to people. That would be absolutely boring, like those narrative roleplaying games.
When I want to read a book I read a book, when I want to play I play.
Shadowmere
That guy has a rather odd definition of grind. Seems he dosen't enjoy player progression and RPG style character creation at all, he should probably stick with run and gun shooters where everyone's the same.
when fun story progressing play takes a back seat to repeating something over and over (read; doing the same quest, killing the same creatures in the same area) in the name of leveling up or character advancement THAT is grind.
Grind is not playing through story missions and quests and getting cool new skills for you character, all the while never repeating the same mission or area.
This guy's PvP example sounds weak at best, even if you make a roleplaying character and play them through all the secondary prof quests in pre-sear you're going to unlock a lot of skills, then try doing side quests once leaving pre-sear and you've got half the prophecies and core skills at your disposal for PvP. Idk sounds like he couldn't strap himself down and enjoy a fun story driven RP experience, instead he chose to see every plot advancing quest as grind for new skills and gear.
when fun story progressing play takes a back seat to repeating something over and over (read; doing the same quest, killing the same creatures in the same area) in the name of leveling up or character advancement THAT is grind.
Grind is not playing through story missions and quests and getting cool new skills for you character, all the while never repeating the same mission or area.
This guy's PvP example sounds weak at best, even if you make a roleplaying character and play them through all the secondary prof quests in pre-sear you're going to unlock a lot of skills, then try doing side quests once leaving pre-sear and you've got half the prophecies and core skills at your disposal for PvP. Idk sounds like he couldn't strap himself down and enjoy a fun story driven RP experience, instead he chose to see every plot advancing quest as grind for new skills and gear.
romeus petrus
The vast majority of things in GW that require grinding are lame PvE titles that represent nothing but the amount of time spent playing the game. You can finish pretty much all 3 chapters + GWEN without having to grind at all, just follow the main quest.
If anything GW has less mandatory grinding than the rest of the MMOs on the market.
Now if you want to max out every meaningless Title ever invented, then yes there would be a lot of grinding involved. But that would really be your choice, and nobody is forcing you to do it.
If anything GW has less mandatory grinding than the rest of the MMOs on the market.
Now if you want to max out every meaningless Title ever invented, then yes there would be a lot of grinding involved. But that would really be your choice, and nobody is forcing you to do it.
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
| The fact is that without items a player vs. player character is basically a level one, except with more base damage and health as well as some other attributes. |
Quote:
| When you're using a base skill that does 30 damage on your opponent and he's attacking back with a skill that freezes you for five seconds, and drains fifty health a second for ten seconds with a seven second recharge time, how the hell can skill help you out there? It can't. |
Inde
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by -Sonata-
From the sounds of it, by his "definition" everything in every game is "grind" then. Doesn't make much sense. A few commenters summed it up better. One that stands out:
"When Guild Wars FORCES me, without CHOICE, to repeat the same action over and over (see level up games like WoW, Flyff, Knight, AoC, etc) without quests, missions, or furthering the story then I'll say Guild Wars is "grind"." |
But really, I think later on he tries to defend it but... I can't even figure out WHAT he's trying to say.
Quote:
|
What exactly does this definition for the grind in online games mean? It means constantly repeating something in order to reach your goal, of which the most common instance is repetitively pressing a button or clicking the mouse in order to kill monsters, all in hopes of leveling up and getting more powerful and access to more of the games content... But what if I told you that in reality every game has the same exact grind, and it's completely inevitable in order to get rid of it in online gaming while keeping the game entertaining |
IslandHermet
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ralgha
PvE Guild Wars is nothing but grind. Think about it, there is only one thing to do in PvE Guild Wars, KILL MOBS. That's it. There is nothing else. Crafting you say? All crafing is, is collecting a bunch of materials (by KILLING MOBS), and then handing them to a crafter, who hands you your item. Some of these crafters you can't even get to unless you, wait for it, KILL MOBS.
Titles? Same thing. Cartographer, you kill mobs, or run from mobs trying to kill you if you really want to get particular. Vanqush, that's whole point is killing mobs. Skill capper? Kill specific mobs. Missions? Kill mobs, to get to a point, which requires you to kill mobs. Hell you can't even travel without killing mobs. Want to go do a dungeon? Well with a few exceptions, you gotta kill mobs to get to it, or run from mobs trying to kill you. Once you get to the dungeon, what do you do there? Kill mobs. Want to go look at some of the scenery? Gotta kill mobs first. Open some chests? Gotta kill mobs to get there, or run from mobs trying to kill you. I've mostly left GW behind and moved on to EVE, because EVE has things to do besides kill mobs. |
If you go with that then guild wars PvP is grind to, all you do is kill a team of 8 or 4 instead of a mob.
but from his definition everything is grind including real life.
The Rl grind is something I can agree on. same shit different day. or back to the grind in terms of work.
komma
maybe im just old school but there has been some element of a grind to just about every rpg ever made...not saying gw is purely grindage, mainly just pve titles...but as a gamer, you should kind of know what to expect before buying a game in a certain genre...dont like grinding?? put the game back on the rack and get a fps or something else. in gw especially the main grind titles seem like such a grind, is because they are. if they were easily attained then everyone would all be the same title and that really would kind of defeat the purpose..those dedicated enough to grind out a serious title are in it for the title itself and justly rewarded in the end.
captain_carter
Well from what appears to be his definition of grind, everything is grind, so if you remove grind, what are you left with...
!Selling awesome game with absolutely no grind, only £10.99!
!Selling awesome game with absolutely no grind, only £10.99!
Dr Strangelove
My working definition of grind is any boring, repetitive task I have to do in order to have fun later. If you don't consider farming/trading/playing boring, it can't be grind.
BlackSephir
Quote:
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Originally Posted by komma
maybe im just old school but there has been some element of a grind to just about every rpg ever made...
|
The Meth
Quote:
| When you're using a base skill that does 30 damage on your opponent and he's attacking back with a skill that freezes you for five seconds, and drains fifty health a second for ten seconds with a seven second recharge time, how the hell can skill help you out there? It can't. |
sph0nz
Haha oh wow.
Clearly he hasn't played guild wars much, if at all. So many things are simply wrong; J menu equals ftw? Furthermore, his definition of grind is so general that simply playing [through] a game must be grinding as long as it lacks accomplishments [and is repetitive]? What the hell is he talking about?
Clearly he hasn't played guild wars much, if at all. So many things are simply wrong; J menu equals ftw? Furthermore, his definition of grind is so general that simply playing [through] a game must be grinding as long as it lacks accomplishments [and is repetitive]? What the hell is he talking about?
yum
Grinding is a mental state. If you find fun in an activity, it's not; otherwise, it is.
Any attempt to put it in a concrete definition ensures a " fail."
Any attempt to put it in a concrete definition ensures a " fail."
IslandHermet
^Yum has it spot on.
Darkobra
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Originally Posted by Inde
I have no idea what his last paragraph is trying to say. Every game has grind, and then... something about inevitable to get rid of it? Or is he saying that if you take it away it won't make the game entertaining? No idea.
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BlackSephir
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Originally Posted by yum
Grinding is a mental state. If you find fun in an activity, it's not; otherwise, it is.
Any attempt to put it in a concrete definition ensures a " fail." |
oh i c
Bryant Again
"Grind" happens when you're not having fun.
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Operative 14
Did that guy even play Guild Wars?
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Anyone mentioning grind in GW would go for reputation titles to showcase grind.
I guess articles could be rewritten like this:
Long time ago i tried GWs. First, I tried that PvP thingie and was getting owned seriously. All i remember is loosin heluva hp while being snared. Clearly, It was imba and you had to grind a lot to become imba like that too (cuz you need to grind to get power in every game .. gw cant be different, right?).
Sins you cant get better throught leveling, it must be items, so you hafta farm them!
So i went to farm stuff. It was boring, but reaaaallly needed to do that, y know. And uw was not open so i sat there for hour waiting for it to open. That was pretty grindy.
I also faintly remember doing missions and hoping for good drops. Guess that was grind too. Because like ... doing mission didnt give me drops so i though i hafat to moar of them. So i like ... did. Grind!
PS: i might have not figured out that i can equip unlocked items on pvp character, because i think that i can only get runes for it with gold.
---
Author seems to be totally clueless.
MithranArkanere
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
"Grind" happens when you're not having fun.
|
When you are making your favourite mission, do you have in mind the image of the shield and swords?
No... when you are having fun in a mission, you don't remember about that until you see it.
But when you are making a boring one, the shield and swords animation is all what you are waiting for.
Boring grind is the same. In the case of GW, the grind done with a title piles up with the grind you make with the next ones.
"I have already done this a lot of times, why is it that I see no reward?".
That's when it's grind.
When you are doing the 700th Margonite run, that's grind.
When you give the 5th completed HM dungeon guide,that's grind.
When you open the 10.001st or the identify the 10.001 rare item, that's grind.
jadedragoon
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Originally Posted by The Meth
Someone, please show me which skill this is. I want to make a team that just spams this supposed 500 damage skill that also 'freezes' people.
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What awesome skill is this??? This skill makes ursan look weak.....
komma
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
This gets me to wonder what kind of oldschool guy finds grind in almost every rpg ever made ;d
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Thizzle
It makes a couple points, but in reality Guild Wars wan't a grind until EoTN came out. I think hard mode is ridiculous and there is no way I could do it without Ursan, but I liked the game before hard mode and Ursan. If your knew to the game and you bought the PvE then you should just play through a character or two and unlock some skills and buy others with hero points.
Arduin
Well that was a good laugh. Pity articles like that (don't fear the grind!) is only bad publicity on GW's part.
Guess I'll be off doing some more HFFF...
Quote:
| Dude, have you seen how grindy this game is?!? It makes me click the LMB over and over!!! <gasp> |
The Meth
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Originally Posted by komma
guess you havent played many of them then...in the 8-bit gen they were all grind-fest just to level.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by komma
It makes a couple points, but in reality Guild Wars wan't a grind until EoTN came out. I think hard mode is ridiculous and there is no way I could do it without Ursan, but I liked the game before hard mode and Ursan. If your knew to the game and you bought the PvE then you should just play through a character or two and unlock some skills and buy others with hero points.
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BlackSephir
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Originally Posted by komma
guess you havent played many of them then...in the 8-bit gen they were all grind-fest just to level.
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yum
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Originally Posted by BlackSephir
So if someone finds HFFF entertaining then it mean's it's not faction grinding?
oh i c |
Let compare the concept of grinding to happiness, and you'll get a better picture.
~ Dan ~
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wetalkshit.com
Allow me to put it in perspective. Say you have just bought the game and you create a level twenty character and you immediately head over to the player vs. player arenas in order to compete, in hopes that this game where the player vs. player is so cherished for being based upon skill and strategy, not cumulative time played, lives up to expectations. Could you possibly beat an average player, meaning someone who doesn't suck at player vs. player, who has been playing for over a year? No. I don't care how good you think you are, you can't. The fact is that without items a player vs. player character is basically a level one, except with more base damage and health as well as some other attributes.
<snip> You have nothing compared to your opponent, thus skill plays no part in the competition. |
Quote:
| When you're using a base skill that does 30 damage on your opponent and he's attacking back with a skill that freezes you for five seconds, and drains fifty health a second for ten seconds with a seven second recharge time, how the hell can skill help you out there? It can't. |
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
And you don't have fun when the 'path' is way less interesting than the 'reward'.
|
That's where this largely varies: A person may not be fully enjoying what they're doing, but it lies in the players hands to determine if crossing the finish line was worth it. It's when you find out the reward isn't worth it that's quite a let down, but that's a bit less about the grind itself.
If a person is not having fun and asking themselves "why am I doing this?" without an answer, then that's a very different problem.
bel unbreakable
excuse me hfffing is fun it was a dead title to me while i thought you had to ab now is just a matter of time till my 27th
Turtle222
The writer believes its that hard to get items. Hell, you can buy a perfect green for 1K these days, and you make that amount just getting out of presearing
Longasc
But why exactly do some games not come across as grindy, while others bore the hell out of us and seem ten times more grindy? It's because the game developers attempt to hide the grind. They don't want you to know it's there, not because it's a secret, but because anytime that the grind is so obvious you can detect it without having to think at all the game is going to get boring and old, quickly
I think this is the key point of the article.
GW is not different, after content is exhausted, people get offered some grind to continue playing.
GW at least has most grind more or less optional, but all their content enhancements, be it titles or faction skills, are grind heavy.
And unfortunately, GW grind does not taste too good. It is very very shallow and repetitive.
I just wonder that he focuses so much on attaining skills and not on faction related skills and so on. He played GW, but obviously he did not experience that aspect.
I did not have to start after Nightfall, I had already all skills unlocked.
But for new players they offer for some bucks unlocks, as the author of the article is quite right: Without many skills unlocked you cannot compete.
Still, I do not really want to take his advice.
I do not embrace the grind, I think less grind is good for me and other people that do not live in the basement and still want to play some kind of MMO.
And we can be glad that we westerners usually do not experience really hardcore asia grinders... they would find all GW grind unchallenging, quickly achieved crap.
I think this is the key point of the article.
GW is not different, after content is exhausted, people get offered some grind to continue playing.
GW at least has most grind more or less optional, but all their content enhancements, be it titles or faction skills, are grind heavy.
And unfortunately, GW grind does not taste too good. It is very very shallow and repetitive.
I just wonder that he focuses so much on attaining skills and not on faction related skills and so on. He played GW, but obviously he did not experience that aspect.
I did not have to start after Nightfall, I had already all skills unlocked.
But for new players they offer for some bucks unlocks, as the author of the article is quite right: Without many skills unlocked you cannot compete.
Still, I do not really want to take his advice.
I do not embrace the grind, I think less grind is good for me and other people that do not live in the basement and still want to play some kind of MMO.
And we can be glad that we westerners usually do not experience really hardcore asia grinders... they would find all GW grind unchallenging, quickly achieved crap.
StormDragonZ
Quote:
| ... Could you possibly beat an average player, meaning someone who doesn't suck at player vs. player, who has been playing for over a year? No. I don't care how good you think you are, you can't. The fact is that without items a player vs. player character is basically a level one, except with more base damage and health as well as some other attributes. |