First the Holy Trinity came about and many professions were left out in the dust.
In order to rectify this, Anet created [ursan blessing].
Players constantly complain about ursan blessing but rarely discuss how it managed to bypass the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Holy Trinity.
If you're going to talk about nerfing Ursan Blessing folks, why don't we first try to fix the original issue. That way... if and when Ursan Blessing is nerfed, we don't have the same RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up that we did before the bear came about.
Izzy Interview - PvP vs PvE: ArenaNet on Guild Wars at BigDownload
Nightow
moriz
the "holy trinity" is a myth. please stop using this ridiculous term.
Nightow
Call it what ever you want, certain professions were obviously not wanted in PvE pugs.
Also, http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=%22trinity%22
Also, http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=%22trinity%22
moriz
let me rephrase then: the holy trinity, in any way shape or form, does not exist. stop blaming your own lackings on some imaginary standard.
BlackSephir
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nightow
First the Holy Trinity came about and many professions were left out in the dust.
In order to rectify this, Anet created [ursan blessing]. Players constantly complain about ursan blessing but rarely discuss how it managed to bypass the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Holy Trinity. If you're going to talk about nerfing Ursan Blessing folks, why don't we first try to fix the original issue. That way... if and when Ursan Blessing is nerfed, we don't have the same RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up that we did before the bear came about. |
Yeah, I can see how this "holy trinity" is over.
Nightow
So you're saying that before Ursan Blessing, all professions were not left out in pugs? Even in areas like FoW, UW and DoA?
Shuuda
Quote:
| So the MAJORITY you're speaking of are Forum posters? That's a drop in the bucket compared to the entire GW community, whose opinions aren't necessarily represented by the whiners. |
Sab
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Res Ipsi
I have, and except for outposts like ToA, DoA, and assorted dungeons, it's not nearly as common as a few posters here have made it out to be. In any event, my view is that many players slap these skills on their bars not because they want to feel "epic" while owning masses of red dots, but because they want to speed things up. Players completed missions long before these silly skills were introduced, so the skills themselves added nothing to the game but a faster way to do so.
|
Tyla
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nightow
So you're saying that before Ursan Blessing, all professions were not left out in pugs? Even in areas like FoW, UW and DoA?
|
FoW is easy.
UW is just a little hard at the Chaos Planes.
DoA does kinda hurt a little on the melee. (Gloom...QQ)
Just because PuG's lack knowledge doesn't mean what they say is true.
Esan
Regardless of what "PvEers want" (which, let's be honest, no single player is capable of judging), the indisputable fact is that overpowered PvE-only skills are popular. This could mean that PvEers like overpowered skills qua skills, or it could just as well mean that PvEers like to finish things quickly and safely and the overpowered skills are just their best tools. The latter is not unique to PvE -- any PvPer worth the air he breathes would also use the best tools at his disposal.
The introduction of PvE-only skills was a mistake not because it made PvE "too easy" (which it doubtlessly did, but that's a symptom), but because it caused an unhealable rift between those players who pick the best tools for PvE and those who pick the best tools for PvP. These two groups no longer speak the same language -- the common set of skills. It is foolish to blame any players for this as it was always a predictable outcome of design decisions made by Anet.
The introduction of PvE-only skills was a mistake not because it made PvE "too easy" (which it doubtlessly did, but that's a symptom), but because it caused an unhealable rift between those players who pick the best tools for PvE and those who pick the best tools for PvP. These two groups no longer speak the same language -- the common set of skills. It is foolish to blame any players for this as it was always a predictable outcome of design decisions made by Anet.
Nightow
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tyla
PuG's are bad.
FoW is easy. UW is just a little hard at the Chaos Planes. DoA does kinda hurt a little on the melee. (Gloom...QQ) Just because PuG's lack knowledge doesn't mean what they say is true. |
) guess what you're left with?Pugs.
Might not be right but if I want to go do that elite area, I'd rather load up [ursan blessing] on my main than have to play a profession that I really don't like to play as.
Tyla
And if you aren't the right rank?
Or in your "Holy Trinity", right profession?
Variables exist, you know. :>
Or in your "Holy Trinity", right profession?
Variables exist, you know. :>
zwei2stein
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nightow
So you're saying that before Ursan Blessing, all professions were not left out in pugs? Even in areas like FoW, UW and DoA?
|
Anyway, if you want to blame someone, blame people who created mesmers because they looked pretty and showed all the pugs lots of reasons for rather having empty party slot than taking mesmers. Blame all those naruto-60dp-instadeath sins.
"Blame Izzy" for creating what can be considered PvP-only classes and allowing to play them in PvE. Blame him for giving those classes too steep learning curve so that you cant trust stranger to play them well.
Blame people who chose professions incompatible with teambuilds for wanting place in that teambuild anyway.
Izzy learned of course:
Bad sin player does not damage and dies fast. Bad Dervish player deals some damage and survives easily thanks to all those balthazar avatars, vital boons and such... So dervishes didn't really get any stigma.
Nightow
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tyla
And if you aren't the right rank?
Or in your "Holy Trinity", right profession? Variables exist, you know. :> |
Now please stop trying to say that Heroes/Hench/guildies are the way to go beacuse H/H make me want to bash my head into the desk sometimes and guildies are not always available or not enough people who can do said areas are online.
Quote:
| Why do you think that those areas need to be "Pugable" to begin with? |
To be honest, I have had more success with [ursan blessing] pugs lately than I have ever had with heroes.
Tyla
Then H/H or Guildies aren't the way to go?
Put it this way, if you're in a guild with your timezone and it's pretty active, chances are you'll easily make a guild group.
Put it this way, if you're in a guild with your timezone and it's pretty active, chances are you'll easily make a guild group.
FoxBat
"Holy Trinity" was never the fastest build almost anywhere, but it was the easiest, which is important for pugging elite areas. In pugs you want to reduce the amount of skill involved to mitigate the consequences of playing with idiots. (Hence, Ursanway.) We can only pray they find other solutions in GW2, like more defined class roles.
Molock
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Inde
PvE players tend to want extremely overpowered things and feel epic while killing lots of things. They don't want things to change very much. Things need to remain static so that they can learn and plan strategies. Change is bad for them - it creates instability in their world. They often have builds and Heroes set up to work off of each other. A major change could completely destroy their game experience.
|
Rift
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sab
The original point was Izzy's statement that "PvErs want overpowered things" - I still can't see how that's an incorrect generalization. You said that many players just want to get stuff done as quickly as possible. Either they like using overpowered skills, or they're indifferent to balance. In any case, neither of them suggest that PvErs want a balanced game.
|
Why is it that the only way to increase difficulty is to give enemy NPCs 10 more levels, increase their activation speeds and resilience, or producing unfair environmental conditions.
It's not fun to "epically" breeze through everything and anything. However, it's also not fun to constantly face areas where your tools/skills that are severely gimped compared to your opposition, to make up for AI deficiencies. Anyone who's vanquished Tyria can vouch for this; unless you're a masochist, the fun factor was quite low.
Put level 30 archers in GVG, and you'll hear crying akin to when VIO had the potential of creating ridiculous NPC spikes.
Res Ipsi
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nightow
Players constantly complain about ursan blessing.... |
Angelic Upstart
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Longasc
They must have missed the whole Ursan, Consumables and general difficulty debates here on this and other forums.
|
For me PvE skills have nullified a lot of things that made this game as good as it was, i will definately take a good hard look at GW2 before i commit to buying it.
~ Dan ~
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr. G
I do think this wins generalization of the year though
|
DutchSmurf
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Molock
No wonder stupid skills like Ursan are allowed to exist... that comment makes me sad
|
enter_the_zone
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by FoxBat
"Holy Trinity" was never the fastest build almost anywhere, but it was the easiest, which is important for pugging elite areas. In pugs you want to reduce the amount of skill involved to mitigate the consequences of playing with idiots. (Hence, Ursanway.) We can only pray they find other solutions in GW2, like more defined class roles.
|
DarkNecrid
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pumpkin pie
i say: from a pve players point of view That is not what I as a pve player want, Yes we do like the feeling of winning, we do want to feel epic. But do not think that a "static unchange" scenery in a game will hold our interest for too long.
|
Quote:
| His bolded assumption is fundamentally wrong. |
Quote:
| Interesting solution, unfortunately I must say Izzy does not show any love for PvE. You cannot let a person who has such a low opinion and imagination of fun and interesting PvE gameplay make skills for both PvE and PvP. |
Quote:
| One thing I cannot understand: They really respect farming as a valid form of gameplay. I would see it as a sub-division of PvE gameplay, but how on earth can they give farming such a high value? If a farming build gets destroyed, people farm something else, what is the problem? |
Quote:
| PvP players could use better automated tournaments, interesting new maps and game modes, there are many more important things to do than to nerf and buff builds on a regular basis. Balancing skills is just the BASE, the minimum effort to make a PvP game good, but it needs more than that, sorry. |
New maps: Fix the ones you already have plx. Some of them just suck.
Game Modes: Hell no. No need to split an already dying player base across more areas.
Quote:
| Also, good PvE gameplay is not defined by overpowered skills versus hopeless mobs. ANet wanted to get away from power grind, and all their title additions to PvE favor grinding for minor skill improvements. |
This is why there WAS no grin. This is no longer the case, since people whined that the game that was advertised as being a COMPETITIVE experience, didn't have enough cooperative content/didn't want to play PvP. -_-
Quote:
| Izzy is a hard hypocrite. He says they nerf skills that appear (HAHAhahHAhAhA OHOOHOH OMFG LMAO) to be overpowered, but ursan is still ruining pve. He says pve is important, but it's lame and too easy. |
Sab
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rift
It's not that PVEers want overpowered things, it's that PVE is imbalanced by design.
Why is it that the only way to increase difficulty is to give enemy NPCs 10 more levels, increase their activation speeds and resilience, or producing unfair environmental conditions. It's not fun to "epically" breeze through everything and anything. However, it's also not fun to constantly face areas where your tools/skills that are severely gimped compared to your opposition, to make up for AI deficiencies. Anyone who's vanquished Tyria can vouch for this; unless you're a masochist, the fun factor was quite low. |
Even though mobs are statistically better than human players, why does that suddenly mean PvE isn't fun? PvE is designed for the player to win. While it seems like the player is always at a severe disadvantage, after you learn the game it's really no contest - players win, all the time.
Nor does the "imbalance" of PvE justify the existence of overpowered skills. Players do not *need* overpowered skills - they can complete PvE content just fine without them. However, players *want* overpowered things so they can get to the rewards faster.
That's really the point of contention. While many PvErs dislike Ursan specifically, I've seen enough suggestions for Soul Reaping to be reverted, Paragons to be buffed, Splinter to go back, etc. that I'm quite convinced that PvErs don't want balance - they just want "feel epic while killing lots of things."
Bryant Again
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nightow
Right, Im not saying that Ursan Blessing is the correct answer but I am saying that we need to look at the original problem first (Not all professions equally appealing in high-end PvE gameplay) before we try to apply a quick fix (nerf UB).
|
Making a balance decision based on PUGs is like having a PvP balance centered entirely on Random Arena (kudos to Avarre for that comparison).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rift
It's not that PVEers want overpowered things, it's that PVE is imbalanced by design.
Why is it that the only way to increase difficulty is to give enemy NPCs 10 more levels, increase their activation speeds and resilience, or producing unfair environmental conditions. It's not fun to "epically" breeze through everything and anything. However, it's also not fun to constantly face areas where your tools/skills that are severely gimped compared to your opposition, to make up for AI deficiencies. Anyone who's vanquished Tyria can vouch for this; unless you're a masochist, the fun factor was quite low. Put level 30 archers in GVG, and you'll hear crying akin to when VIO had the potential of creating ridiculous NPC spikes. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart
Not missed, blatantly ignored, i dont think Anet intends to do anything about PvE skills, in fact GW2 will probably see more introduced.
For me PvE skills have nullified a lot of things that made this game as good as it was, i will definately take a good hard look at GW2 before i commit to buying it. |
Celestial_Kitsune
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shuuda
But can't forums be seen as a microcosm? In which case it does have some represntation of what people want, it's not totally accurate, but forums be paint a picture of what the community is like.
|
Darksun
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Res Ipsi
That's a mighty wide brush he's painting with.
|
Angelic Upstart
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
From what they've been saying in interviews, it sounds like the game will be soloable. I'm hoping this is true, because not only would they not have to worry about people having to group up, it would eliminate farming. |
Rift
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sab
That's really the point of contention. While many PvErs dislike Ursan specifically, I've seen enough suggestions for Soul Reaping to be reverted, Paragons to be buffed, Splinter to go back, etc. that I'm quite convinced that PvErs don't want balance - they just want "feel epic while killing lots of things."
|
For many, GW was a stepping stone from the single player RPG (Diablo, Final Fantasy, Oblivion) into the Online RPG world because of its Free-to-Play approach. Such games were "balanced" in terms of skills, items, inter-class potential, and amusment factor, while still allowing the PVE player to feel "epic" by having a leveling system that allowed them to equal or surpass enemy NPCs.
For example, raise the level cap in PVE and suddenly Splinter becomes much more attractive (or at least on par with enemy NPC levels) in terms of number of enemies affected, without "imbalancing" the skill itself.
I don't think SR, Paras or SW should be or will be reverted; the introduction of different skill effects for PVE and PVP will be used to prevent further nerfs to key skills to be propagated to the PVE world, since they simply don't have the resources to properly assess, test, and balance the impact on the PVE game and its community.
DarkNecrid
He was talking about the majority of PvE players.
Christ.
The PvE only players who want a balance and are ok with PvP nerfing their shit is a minority. Thats obvious from in-game just as well as the forums.
EDIT:
Whether you like it or not, this game and it's community has changed. I don't like it either, I happened to of rather liked the original game design of PvE leading everyone to PvP, but the former got that changed. I happened to of liked no grind, but the former got that changed to. So.
Christ.
The PvE only players who want a balance and are ok with PvP nerfing their shit is a minority. Thats obvious from in-game just as well as the forums.
EDIT:
Whether you like it or not, this game and it's community has changed. I don't like it either, I happened to of rather liked the original game design of PvE leading everyone to PvP, but the former got that changed. I happened to of liked no grind, but the former got that changed to. So.
Res Ipsi
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rift
... it's the statement that PVE doesn't want/care for balance that is hard to swallow. Balance is important to prevent the pollution caused by required classes, builds and even skills from high-level areas.
|
DarkNecrid
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Res Ipsi
Excellent point. In discussing the issue of PvE "balance" with friends, an interesting point was raised: Why didn't ANet simply randomize the skill bars used by the AI so that every time you entered an instance, you'd never know what to expect? This would probably have reduced the number of farming bots as well, but would that be such a bad thing?
|
Rift
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Res Ipsi
Excellent point. In discussing the issue of PvE "balance" with friends, an interesting point was raised: Why didn't ANet simply randomize the skill bars used by the AI so that every time you entered an instance, you'd never know what to expect? This would probably have reduced the number of farming bots as well, but would that be such a bad thing?
|
I think this would become a more of an annoyance for the typical player. Just look at random boss spawns in Tyria vs. set boss spawns in Elona and the impact it has had on Skill Hunters.
Longasc
Maybe someone should ask Izzy what he meant, he already mentioned that his wording is sometimes not the best.
BTW, such statements can easily be used in your favor to say "I did not want to say what I said, I meant it different" later. :P
BTW, such statements can easily be used in your favor to say "I did not want to say what I said, I meant it different" later. :P
Bryant Again
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart
Hmm personally i think the pugging side of things, back in the day was one of the better things about GW, farming however should be left as an option, those that want to do it, can and those that dont can go grind titles or whatever.
|
I'm not saying to remove farming. I'm saying the need to remove farming specific builds. I believe it introduced pretty much a whole new section of balancing that devs had to take note of, among PvE and PvP.
Greedy Gus
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Longasc
Maybe someone should ask Izzy what he meant, he already mentioned that his wording is sometimes not the best.
|
Longasc
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Greedy Gus
What part of the interview was unclear? It all seems pretty clear, even predictable.
|
At least I would prefer that to devs really believing that because "pve people love overpowered skills and farming" giving them more of them would make the game any better.
Creeping Carl
To those who are crying about Izzy generalizing PVE'ers with a wide brush, you're in complete denial. He's completely correct in that in general, PVE players want to be overpowered or at least content with it. Just look at the many update threads, SR threads, AOE threads, UB threads, etc etc.
We PVE players have no one else to blame for this generalisation but ourselves.
We PVE players have no one else to blame for this generalisation but ourselves.
pumpkin pie
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DarkNecrid
That's nice it was obvious he was talking about "the majority".
|
ermmmmmmmm, thats my opinion.
and why I let my opinion be known? So that the developer will know that is not what some of the players wants, if you do not give feedback, then the one chance that stupid nerf will be stop from happening is lost !