Developer Updates PvP/PvE Skill Balancing - May 21st

[QUOTE]perfect elitest example

here is what i am refering to and the quote on it.

the hardcore are not even enough to be counted in the bottom line.

JEFF STRAIN

linkie on that

http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php

Holy Crap Loviatar. That's a quote that needs to be put at the head of this forum with flashing neon lights with a big flashing headline "Warning! Not everything in this world is about YOU, elitist snob!"

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of:
"Warning - the average Guru poster IS NOT the average GW player!"

They need to worry more about your spelling than your maths.



I'm sorry to see Glyph of Concentration reverted to 'nerfed' status. That's all.

People still believe this?

LoL. That quote is the exact reason PvP is dead, Ursan rules the land, balance is down the toilet, and this update with all its numerous flaws and hilarious skill changes has happened to begin with. I'm glad everybody is happy.

Did you miss the mix of buffs and nerfs to PVE and PVP at the end of the list of changes?

Missed the point. Why don't cheats belong in MMOs? The rest of your argument is completely irrelevant because 1) it doesn't matter what people think of you, and 2) Doom and SC are competitive settings, whereas GW PvE is not.

Playing a game and playing a metagame aren't mutually exclusive. A lot of games have difficulty settings (heck, GW has one). Most console RPGs have built-in difficulty settings in the sense that you can underlevel or overlevel your characters, and take on user-created challenges like "no items", "solo party", etc. In short, you haven't answered the question, and you haven't shown the question to be irrelevant. So the question stands - why shouldn't you let the players choose their difficulty?

Fun for who? And stupid for who? I haven't played Oblivion, but are you really saying that nobody has fun at any difficulty except the highest one? Or that nobody can do those particular encounters at the highest difficulty? As for immersion - some people care, some people don't. I've always been a mechanics person, myself. I play games like Disgaea that are, at their core, just a mechanics engine for minmaxing. I find it incredibly fun without even touching the story.

Strawman. I give you the option of a win button. It's up to you whether you want to use it. If it's not fun, don't use it.

There's also the issue that there were plenty of people who played Doom, Starcraft, etc. for months and years with cheat codes. I know people who wouldn't even touch an FPS without all cheats enabled, and they had lots of fun for what would certainly qualify as "sustainable" periods. Similarly, many SC games on B.net were BGH with people doing nothing but massing battlecruisers and similar nonsense. This kind of thing went on for years and years. So while you or I might not be having fun after the "first, possible second, time", I submit that there are plenty of people that do.

Really? Some people were happy with the locked gates because people could no longer 'cheat' by running - in short, people who wanted to control how other people played the game. The sub-prime issue is a case of everyone on all sides being greedy, and the end result of an economy quite comfortable with debt that was irresponsibly deregulated.

But even assuming, arguendo, that people really didn't know what they wanted in those cases, can you state with any credibility that people don't know what they want here? How can you say a priori whether people know what they want or not? The examples you gave above were chosen in hindsight - you explicitly picked cases where people said they wanted 'A', were given 'A', and then, allegedly, decided they didn't want 'A' anymore. I could give examples of cases where people got exactly what they wanted and were happy about it. Can you predict ahead of time which situation it will be? And if so, how? Just because you know better?

Your argument is begging the question. You assume a priori that power v. fun isn't a linear relationship, when that's exactly a critical piece of the question (see above). Even assuming, arguendo, that you're right and it's not a linear relationship, we still have two problems: 1) at what point is more power no longer fun (more importantly, how can you tell?) and 2) why shouldn't we give each person the ability to pick their own power threshold?

I think you're confused as to what 'my side' is - it's important to be able to separate an argument from your own personal thoughts and opinions. And it is, in fact, irrelevant what I really think as long as I present a cogent argument. I have still not received satisfactory answers to the questions I'm posing.

Furthermore, the second half of your argument is irrelevant ad hominem. It doesn't matter if anyone would "dismiss me as a hack", or whether you think I'm full of crap or that "my ideas" are "obviously foolish"; neither of those is a logical argument.

Again, a "win" button is entirely optional. Similarly, a Chimera of Intensity blessing would also be optional. You can use it if it makes the game more fun for you. Don't use it if it doesn't. And while your "you can't even play the game" argument might apply to the win button, it certainly doesn't apply to the Chimera. So where do we draw the line? Anything overpowered is okay as long as you can still "play the game"? If that's your line, we also have to define exactly what "play the game" means. Some people would argue that loading Ursan means you aren't even "playing the game" anymore. What do you think, and how do you justify it?

There's no catch-22 in my argument. The argument takes the position that Izzy knew what he was talking about, and the split is correct. That is, PvEers like to be as overpowered and epic as possible, and therefore the split allows Anet to overpower PvE without worrying about PvP.

C'mon guys. Quit hanging your elitism on a peg, you're making it too easy.

The more you do it, the less the game makers will pay attention.

Yeah, because a PvP'er is really going to be bothered about PvE.

I think what you are looking for is "PvX". Someone who plays both gametypes.

And find me a PvP'er who hasn't played PvE.

Why do you need to cheat in order to be good at or have fun with a game?

IMO, if you have to cheat to find fulfillment in a game, you probably don't enjoy playing it.

If you need to cheat to get further in a game, it must be a peer problem. People will always be at differing levels of skill no matter what game it is. Its the old Chess rule: There is always an opponent out there that will beat you. If you have to cheat to be as efficient as they are, then it must be a self esteem issue and what others think of you does matter.


I can't find the topic, but there was a thread where guilds were comparing their elite area completion times. There are also challenge missions in the game. Guild Wars originated as a competative game where guilds were always competing against each other.

So, Guild Wars WAS a competative setting, but then the Carebears came and Tyria turned into Care-a-Lot.

I will, just as soon as you find me a PvPer who likes PvE.

Hi.


I knew this would fail, but lol. tbh, I was expecting something more ridiculous, like some dumb PvE buffs...but at least that didn't happen. It would be nice to have a GOOD (big) PvP balance though.

All the ones that bought the PvP only editions.

Sometimes you can be funny.

Which is very few, probably like 100.

And that's not counting the ones who already have another account.

They aren't advertised.

90%+ of us like PvE, but hate hardcore PvErs who say "learn to adapt" and then bitch and moan about Splinter Weapon/SR/Paras getting nerfed because they can't adapt....

You are talking about people that do no care about forums, do not read them, fine, fine...

But why must every casual player be an outright idiot that wants imba skills and does not care for a good game at all?

If they dumb down the game even more, not even the dumbest idiots will enjoy it for long.

Quote from Isaiah Cartwright's Wiki page:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...iah_Cartwright

Sense it seems like a lot of people are posting about this I'll clear a few things up real quick.

1. I did this article few months ago back when we didn't know if we where gonna do the PvE PvP split.
2. I think a lot of people are missing my point with this statement " PvE players tend to want extremely overpowered things and feel epic while killing lots of things." I'm not saying that PvE players don't want a challenge, I'm saying they want to be powerful, feel epic, and overcome challenges, shooting out a fireball that kills 1 rat, vs a fireball that kills a cave full of trolls has two very different feels. I also never liked the term "PvE player" as so many different people enjoy different things both casual and hardcore, it's just always been my impression that going on an adventure to slay a dragon feels way cooler then going on an adventure to clear rats from a farmers house. Yet mechanically they are the same thing. In any case sorry if I came across offensive, was just trying to explain some of the challenges in designing a single game for multiple people with multiple goals for their playing experience. Izzy @-'---- 00:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


Still does not explain why a specialized farming skill needed a buff and why there is this major difference of 1/4 second activation time between the pve and pvp variantes of eremite's attack and mystic sweep.

And as people already mentioned on the webpage, as long as Ursan is fine, I do not believe him that he did not mean what he said. He is just covering from the flames of the angry dragon. :P

Well Anet have done it again. How do they make such poor decisions? How can they nerf anything from the Paragon .... Especially spear skills. They already think it's ok to have 3 second use times on some spear skills, then they nerf harriers toss as well -_- maybe they should stop repeatedly nerfing the popular pvp skills, and look at why the rest of the skills are basically never used. Also why not do something about Ursan? I mean it's the single most dominating skill in PvE.

Press b. Count how many obsidian armours you see, how many tormented items, etc etc.

How do you think they got them?

Also, don't you dare say reward points, because even before they were introduced, I would venture that the average player in every top100 guild had items beyond the dreams of most GW players.

NB: Fenix is god at PvE.

Ever heard about tombs and the first price reset? Most people that weren't there just farmed ectos. And there's the thing with selling invites and guilds.
Though many PvPers are just nerds with too much time in their hands, I don't think they actually PvEd that much.

Any PvPer who has played competitively for more than 1 1/2 years would've done a ton of PvE. Before the J menu, PvPers were forced to grind out perfectly outfitted characters, or be left with a major disadvantage. Most top PvPers would've started long before that.

You're pretty much blind then. That or deliberately ignoring facts.

PvE characters were a necessity to play top-tier PvP due to weapon and armor sets. Every PvP'er had a PvE character decked out for PvP, in each class they played.

A lot of PvP players are ex-PvE'ers who finished the game and were looking for something else to do with their top-end gear. The majority of the rest dipped into PvE to get a character fully set up (pre-NF, obviously).

When new areas opened, it was extremely common to see high-end PvP groups forming for PvE areas. I went through Vizunah in a r10+ team (it was nice playing with people that use res signs when people die), for example. PvP players tended to rush through the game since they wanted to get all the content available: armor and weapons for characters, and because they needed PvE characters, they had to unlock all the required skills - including elites.

Hi, I still have those armors and weapons too. Doesn't mean you actually had to play and enjoy PvE: we just grinded through it as quickly as possible and spent our neverending (not in my case, though...) reserves into those. Not really that hard if you ask me, but it was still a pain - at least until armor swapping was disabled and the J menu came around.

We most certainly did have to play PvE. Whether someone enjoys it or not is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that most top PvP players had not only PvE characters, but PvE character with 15k/FoW armor and rare weaponskins, should show you that more effort than the average PvE-only player went in.

Not to mention the ones who fully went through PvE before even starting PvP - those 'neverending reserves' were a result of having crushed PvE utterly. Every time a new chapter came out (and hard mode), nearly the entire PvP community goes into PvE to explore and try out new skills. Any point you may have about 'not actually playing PvE' is void due to its disagreement with reality.

Or more time spent in UW? wakakakakakaka

Go talk to any "top" player around atm and find out where they got the money for all their stuff. Should I remind you about conzpi selling iB (or whatever of his finn guilds it was) and showing off here on guru with his full set of tormented weapons?
I've been a top player and had my full set of ele armors for my role, but never have I dedicated time specifically to get rare skins. Those who did it, only farmed ectos to look good on obs mode - not played the actual content.

This late discussion seemed to be about "do PvPers play PvE"? My answer is, most don't anymore. Most had to in the past. Most didn't want to.

To sell a top guild, you need to first bring a guild to top level.

To be a top guild, you need to have fully equipped characters for maximum competitive ability.

To do this, you need PvE gear in the first place. You need to play through PvE in order to cap/purchase skills for the character.

Stop trying to pull random facts out and pretending you have an argument.

Yes. Most have quit PvE. I'd go so far as to say most of the old players, PvE-only or both, have quit PvE or the game entirely.

A big reason for this is because of PvE segregating and becoming a shallow, boring single-player game.

I guess I'm that person then.

Look, before Factions and the movement of Heroes' Ascent (Was called Tombs of the Primeval Kings at the time) to the Battle Isles, you needed to play through PvE anyway.

PvE is also fun to let off some steam, and to chill out without being serious to be victorious in your games.

And even then, I believe before the "J" menu implimentation, you were only aloud 2 weapon sets.

Yet, you need plentiful sets.

A shield for every damage type, -5E and +5E, high energy set, 40/40 sets, staves for enchanting...

Press B please.

That's because they hold a valid argument against something that threatens their fun. Imbalance, buildwars, and more.

And don't even use that "Counter it!" joke of an argument. There may be counters, but by that logic, nothing is imbalanced and the game is perfectly balanced.

If you understood much about PvP'ing for fun, you wouldn't of posted this.

Adapting to changes is what should be done.

Adapting to one single thing is usually carried out in the first place, but then again, does it stop things being overpowered, degenerate or whatever? No.

Again I remind you of the HUGE amounts of gold you'd make from winning halls. Just about every old-school GvG player was born in tombs, because guilds were born in tombs, and sigils sold for A LOT; if Kaon happened to read this section, I'm sure he'd share just how much gold he and his friends made in the past.
Then there's also people that made millions out of exploiting the first price reset, that dropped 40k/ea runes to 100g/ea and was never rolled back. And then there's people that made a living out of scamming (hi vanq).

What I'm saying is, PvP players are masters at abusing stuff: any "hardcore" PvPer that made money, made it in the shortest possible way. I consider "playing PvE" as actually going through the game yourself, without getting your toons boosted by guildies or spending your time between GvGs in UW with your 55 monk.
I did play and like PvE, never had a toon devoted to farming, and used the gold I had saved (and farmed up a little from Ettins back in the days) to buy what I needed for PvP: you can certainly lump me together with the "PvPers that do PvE". But were ALL skins to be available through tournament rewards, I assure you no one from the "good" guilds would be playing PvE at all.

Afaik, there are two PvPers in "very good" guilds that have r6 KoaBD, a few more with r3-5, and a whole lot who have random max PvE titles here and there. Divine could probably give a complete breakdown of who has what. Point is, top PvPers don't all do the bare minimum, some actually play it - you know - for fun.

There is no valid argument about skill balances having a drastic effect on PvE.

All are trivial, and usually the big updates come with buffs aswell.

And guess what? The PvP pack wasn't implimented until roughly november last year.

By the way, again, just because there are counters doesn't mean it can't be overpowered. With that logic, skill balance wouldn't be done, because everything will be balanced.
Not only that, but you're sacrificing skills to take down one thing when it will fail against everything else. And this should be a game of skill, not rock paper scissors.

Build Wars is bad.

Have you ever thought that on the other hand it's ruining the PvP portion of the game?

Things so trivial shouldn't scare the skill balancer, however bad at his job, into seperating the game.

This game's original focus was PvP anyway. And playing PvP means you have to learn more parts of the game and put more effort in.

im not american or english somy mother language isnt english...-.-"

my parents dont care if i suck at english cause all i learned was form playng mmorpgs and games in english so if u care soo much about me pay me a english course and then we will talk


Cause for a person who learned all from playng english games talk like me is kind of a big deal..

who cares, you don't need an english course to know u should be you and teh should be the.

There's a ton of free resources to learn English online as well.

Starting a post with blatant fallacies does not bode well for the rest of your argumentation.

Maybe I should rephrase it to "Not very often" then, whatever.

And besides, it's usually the big updates that carry the bigger nerfs, and also carry buffs alongside it.

I believe both were in a big update.

Also, it didn't exactly render PvE unplayable now did it?

The majority of PvPers do not use PvP-only editions.

Get that silly concept out of your empty heads. Go on observer mode for once, what do you see?

Crystalline swords, Tormented Weapons, FoW armor, EotN armor, Voltaic Spears, et RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing cetera. A lot HA for it, but a lot PvE for it. Where do they get the money for it? They must pve at some point. And to get the armor, they have to pve to get to the crafter.

Really, don't throw that bullshit fallacy into the argument, you're quite honestly being retarded.

Compensation for the bad players; Thirsty River and Mhenlo monking did not make the game impossible. Same reason this skill separation was done.

For you and I, probably not. But for someone who's going through Desert missions for the first time, it would be a different story.

This is the mistake people most often make -- not to see balance changes through the eyes of a new player. This is part of the complexity of change in PVE, which was one of the driving forces behind the skill separation.

At the end of the day, this is a business.

It would be suicide not to cater to the majority of "bad" players -- they are the cash-cow of this industry. Veterans like us generate very little revenu, especially since there are no monthly fees.

It sounds like a good idea.

Fair enough point.

But it's still quite sad to see a good game go downhill...