Developer Updates PvP/PvE Skill Balancing - May 21st

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Right, 1/4 second matters in PvE
Girlfriend, don't piss against the wind if I am standing behind you!
You know what can happen in 0,75 secs in PvE?
Stuff dies!
So lower cast-time = good because everything just rolls over and dies so fast that you might miss it. Best seen when my mesmer nuker heroes miss their target with Assassin's Promise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
5 seconds still sucks. This lasted 10ish seconds when everyone used it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Meth
Fact: Incoming is an underpowered version of save yourself.
My paragon heroes normally have an open elite slot.
And with two Aegises in the party already - Defensive Anthem was just a bonus. Incoming sounds like something fun to try now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNecrid
And there's facts and evidence that "Fear Me!" is crap against monsters because a majority of them have evidence of having over 80++ energy, with 4-8+ energy regen or more.
This matters very little. Simply because of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
If a monster lived long enough to be completely E-denied, your team must be really really bad or using wand damage to kill stuff...

masta_yoda

masta_yoda

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2007

most hated players in the [game]

R/Mo

omg this is gonna rock HM uw a/e !!!! gonna own everything [except behemoths]

Zaris

Zaris

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

The Netherlands

pve "playing very easy"

Longasc

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

I know this is all very obvious, but you can see where the problem is - how to balance it so that most of the community is in that "flow" zone.

If Anet is doing the right thing here based on their statistics and research of the community, it means there is a much larger percentage of new and unskilled players than there are skilled. I think that, too, is obvious. I suppose in order to keep the masses playing, they have to dumb everything down.
Your link and explanation about this "flow" thing is very good.
The bolded part is the dilemma.

Why does GW have so many people that are really terrible players?

To keep them playing, things have to be easier. But this is the problem.

People do not learn when they are not challenged. GW has no real learning experience.

Let's examine the 3 chapters:

Factions: People were quickly levelled up, they never learned the tricks of the trade. And then they had to fight exploding mobs, and if they were Assassins, they were not only screwed, but totally screwed. I would say for veteran Prophecies players the difficulty was a logical progression and just right, on the other hand!

Nightfall: The two new classes have much higher survivability even if you are dumb, the game is easier. But people can still get to the Realm of Torment and THEN they are handed their butt on a platter. We all know how Gate of Madness and many other missions there had to be toned down once or even several times. There was also no real learning curve in the campaign, it was in general easier than Factions. We had a starter training area similar to the isle of the nameless, which might have helped interested players, but many will simply have ignored it. And it cannot teach people basic game/teamplay either.

The Domain of Anguish is a beast of its own. At first it required specialized builds and experienced teams. People did not like it overly much! Then it was dumbed down, people still did not return en masse. But since the BEAR is there, it has become a joke.


Prophecies: Actually, that sever artery and conjure phantasm rocks in Presearing ... and using Mending till the teen levels...^^ it did not really teach people how to play GW. The desert missions did not prepare them for PvP either. The slow progression made people experiment, but it is for sure not viable for later chapters. People just had a lot of time to figure out strategies. And for starters without a clue, the difficulty was about right!



Later we got more and more skills, power creep happened, and then even more powerful skills.

We would not need all that if the playerbase would be mildly challenged and forced to think about better ways.

ANet should think of ways to gently force people to become somewhat better players in both pvp and pve. PvP has a steep learning curve and forces people to learn quickly. Some just give up. In PvE, people do not need to learn, they can chose to grind for the BEAR or use a popular and tested build of near equal power.



But ANet dumbs things down.

Then we have dumb game for the dumb masses. With little lasting value besides eternal "optional" grind and farming as the only thing left to do for those who like it.

A horror vision of how GW2 should not turn out. I am sure especially veteran GW players expect something better.

But if they cater to the very lowest common denominator in this way, the game will only get dumber to the point where everyone is bored and starts playing another game. We already have games that are like that, and they are better in this regard than GW can be due to balance restriction to items and whatsoever.

therangereminem

therangereminem

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/Mo

onlything thast missing in update is ew , i mean they took that away form trappers becuz of sway and such and now we still dont get ew back to the way it was,

SirPaladin

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2008

W/

Personally, I believe that buffing every skill in PvE is almost as good as nerfing Ursan...

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

lol at HA shadow form griefers

Why did it take Anet 3 years to do this?

Sypherious

Sypherious

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2007

It's Over Nine Thousaaaaand

Mo/E

Well, Mind Burn, Mind Shock, and Mind Freeze all needs buffs for PvE. They suck. Maybe they will consider this.

masta_yoda

masta_yoda

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2007

most hated players in the [game]

R/Mo

pve deserved a buff since loot scaling , good thing sf got buffed as hell

FrAnt1c??

FrAnt1c??

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2007

Belgium

Legion Of Sacred Light [LSL]

Mo/

Aegis, bsurge, lightning orb nerf for pvp was uncalled for, as if the melee pressure meta isnt overpowered enough these days ...

Yawgmoth

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

What a joke...

Clearly they haven't been observing the GvG meta for the last month, meta full of melee (3x derv or 3x warrior heavy pressure builds) and they're nerfing antimelee skills (aegis, ward, bsurge, enfeeble)
And one most expected but absent from the list nerf - Wounding Strike... where is it?

and for PvE
Shadow Form buff? This skill is more than good as it is now for farming and running, buffing it THAT much is just sick.
And Ether Renewal is going to be far better than at Proph release, just crazy. I was using the nerfed 7 seconds one in a certain farming build even now and it was still great, after buff its omfgimba even for PvE standards.

One thing I find missing from PvE buffs is Ward Against Melee, which was 10ene 20recharhe before 2 nerfs that hit it.

Holly Herro

Holly Herro

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Kangaroo-land.

Blades of the Dingo [AUST]

They need to revert Mystic Regeneration.

Make 55ing slightly easier, please! ;D

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly Herro
They need to revert Mystic Regeneration.

Make 55ing slightly easier, please! ;D
Why bother with that broken build, when there's perma Shadow Form?

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ Dan ~
lol at HA shadow form griefers

Why did it take Anet 3 years to do this?
Wow. SF sins were griefing in HA even before Factions was released and before perma-SF with one sin (not counting QZ + SF, because it wasn't solo)?! Good gracious, someone should bust a cap in A.Net's ass ;o

Btw, the more I read how they dumb down PvE, the more I want to play more challenging games that are harder ;d

fenix

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
Wow. SF sins were griefing in HA even before Factions was released and before perma-SF with one sin (not counting QZ + SF, because it wasn't solo)?! Good gracious, someone should bust a cap in A.Net's ass ;o

Btw, the more I read how they dumb down PvE, the more I want to play more challenging games that are harder ;d
I think you're mistaken if you think that you would want to find more challenging games that aren't Guild Wars.... there are some good ones out there

FrAnt1c??

FrAnt1c??

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2007

Belgium

Legion Of Sacred Light [LSL]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
Wow. SF sins were griefing in HA even before Factions was released and before perma-SF with one sin (not counting QZ + SF, because it wasn't solo)?! Good gracious, someone should bust a cap in A.Net's ass ;o

Btw, the more I read how they dumb down PvE, the more I want to play more challenging games that are harder ;d
Lol @ WoW in your list of "Challenging" games, while complaining about crappy pve and crappy grinding and w/e.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Lol I was talking about those MMORPG ones. Because, you know, I can just play some not only online games that are a lot better.

@frantic - because WoW high end > GW high end and wow grind > gw grind. Repetitive, but not boring grind > repetitive and boring, mindless grinding your ass to do anything.

unienaule

unienaule

I dunt even get "Retired"

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FengShuiDove
Really, none of these skills break the game. Yes, the Shadow Form revert/buff is pretty ridiculous, but guess what -- perma-Shadow was /autowin in most areas where it functioned properly already, it just required half a brain and knowing how to use it. Now it takes less and yes, more people (the turds that couldn't figure it out before) will throw it on their bars. I don't really understand why people are complaining about rolling PvE being too easy.
The reason is because Guild Wars PvE didn't become stupidly easy in one single update. It was a long, slow process that occured over the course of updates, campaign additions, the introduction of titles, PvE skills, etc, and there have been people who tried to fight against this trend the entire time. This is Yet Another Stupid Update(tm). So although it is now pretty much a lost cause, there are some people who continue to try anyway. That's why.

Supervillain

Supervillain

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

England

HML

W/

To all the people saying "no need for PvE skills now cause these skills soooo overpowered:

Have I missed something?
The biggest buff of the lot was Shadow Form[E] and I highly doubt we will all go A/x or x/A with 12+ Shadow Arts to all be invun in PvE. It will still be used by farmers, not a huge impact because SF could be maintained anyway.

The Mesmer buffs aint too special either. I doubt I will use them even now. There are better elites and energy management skills in the same attribute.

The Discord and Defensive Anthem buff is 1 second. Hardly game-breaking.

We all knew the "Incoming!" and Light of Deliverance buffs were coming (they said) so what was everyone that is saying "oMgz we are all invunzzzz to dmg" doing when this info was released? 50% dmg reduction for 5 seconds every 20 seconds is fairly decent yes, but we all expected it. With SY this could make imbagon even more imba, but imbagon and Ursan have pretty much slayed the game anyway.

The Ether Renewal and WY buffs were the best of the lot imo. WY is now reusable in PvE again and now we can make a new ele build using Ether Renewal. Hopefully its as good as it looks

The Ritualist and Ranger buffs are pretty meh in PvE anyway. Spirits in HM last a few hits under fire.

EDIT: As a reply to Unienaule,
Guild Wars has never been a truely hard game since it was created years ago. It was slightly difficult at the start because most people just wanted to play the game. They didnt care about making builds or farming 24/7 for a rare sword (cause not everyone knew every item then). When builds started to be created and posted over the interwebz the game became alot easier due to most newbs getting "good" builds. Yes there is a power creep everytime a campaign is realeased but no skill is truely overpowered except for the PvE ones but like I said, the game was easy even before they was introduced. People could do DoA with ease (it just took a while) even before Ursan was alive.

To make the game more difficult, they should focus on updating the monsters, not the players. Look at the EotN monsters compared to Proph monsters. Some have a res, most have a monster only skill and nearly every group has a healer or two. If monsters got new bars, or even buffed versions of our skills (like this new update), the game would be slightly more difficult and being an Ursan or Imbagon wouldnt matter. The problem with this is that it would slay all the casual players who suck at the game already. This is what they should of done with Hard Mode (thats what I thought they was doing -_-, new bars not an extra skill)

FrAnt1c??

FrAnt1c??

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2007

Belgium

Legion Of Sacred Light [LSL]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
@frantic mindless grinding your ass to do anything.
Sorry, I'm not gay.

R.Shayne

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

One more thing I did like about this update happen last night with two people I play with and that was talk about new builds in a different view. Usually we are talking about builds negatively as in, “They nerfed this skill, what do you think about using this skill instead?” Last night it was totally different, “What do you think about this build? How do you think this combo will work? And it wasn’t negative for once; they seemed happy about it and builds were flying back and forth. There was even talk about what if on other builds if other skills get change (I know building up dreams to just get crushed).

I would like to say, “Thanks ANET for letting me enjoy this part of guild wars because it is fun trying / talking about new builds because we want to, not because we had to.”

Off-topic directed at some qq

If this update makes it easier for new players (or casual player) to farm then all the better. If the average player has 20k (read somewhere) then I consider them broke. If the average / casual player wants to grind for title (something I consider a waste of time) so the much the better. If the average / casual player wants to use [Ursan Blessing] to do UW / FoW / DoA / Slaver's so much the better (I don’t have to use the skill). If your e-pen shrinks because others have FoW armor or have done elite areas then I feel sorry for you. My enjoyment of the game doesn't depend on what others have or have not done, it depends on what I consider fun and for me gold drops are fun (treasure hunt).

FrAnt1c??

FrAnt1c??

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2007

Belgium

Legion Of Sacred Light [LSL]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Shayne
One more thing I did like about this update happen last night with two people I play with and that was talk about new builds in a different view. Usually we are talking about builds negatively as in, “They nerfed this skill, what do you think about using this skill instead?” Last night it was totally different in, “What do you think about this build? How do you think this combo will work? And it wasn’t negative for once; they seemed happy about it and builds were flying back and forth. There was even talk about what if on other builds if other skills get change (I know building up dreams to just get crushed).

I would like to say, “Thanks ANET for letting me enjoy this part of guild wars because it is fun trying / talking about new builds because we want to, not because we had to.”
Are we talking pve or pvp builds here?

Feanixxx

Feanixxx

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2005

Have these skill changes been cancelled/backed out? I've just logged in to look at them and they all look the same to me in PvE, for instance Shadow Form at attrib 15 is still 20 seconds.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²
Are we talking pve or pvp builds here?
Haha, you said you are pee.

And imo we are talking about pve in the Riverside, and pvp in Gladator's Arena.

Arkantos

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanixxx
Have these skill changes been cancelled/backed out? I've just logged in to look at them and they all look the same to me in PvE, for instance Shadow Form at attrib 15 is still 20 seconds.
If you read the update, you would have noticed it said this would go live sometime today.

Feanixxx

Feanixxx

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
If you read the update, you would have noticed it said this would go live sometime today.
Yup, read the update and did notice that, logged in a few minutes ago and got a massive update of a great many files .... hence my concluding that the large update was .... the update mentioned for sometime today!! Simple logic really but thanks for the flame, keeps my heart warm

Arkantos

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

Quote:
Simple logic really but thanks for the flame, keeps my heart warm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Forum Rules
Flaming is the act of posting messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting.
My post was not hostile or insulting. I was stating that if you bothered to read the whole update, you would have noticed it said the update goes live today.

But let's not go off topic. Feel free to PM an admin if you truly think I was flaming you.

R.Shayne

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²
Are we talking pve or pvp builds here?
PvE builds - specifically farming builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanixxx
Have these skill changes been cancelled/backed out? I've just logged in to look at them and they all look the same to me in PvE, for instance Shadow Form at attrib 15 is still 20 seconds.
New community manger has stated in this thread that the update will go live today but later than usual (later than usual is open to interpretation) I am guessing 6 or 7 pm eastern time. Would provide a link but it is like one line somewhere around the forth page. I can't blame anyone for missing it since reading through ever post on this thread would be time consuming. I don't think Arkantos' reply was intended as a flame just read as direct to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra
Another thing I'd like to make folks aware of is that the game update will be going live in the afternoon rather than the morning.
wow, was on forth page

Azora

Azora

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2007

Portugal =P

We Need Fame [sOz]

R/

KK sins and eles farm almost all uw with perm SF now with this buff they will even farm it safer


1º ecto prices drop
2º eternal stuff prices drop
but o really dont care

i want ranger EW back! ffs let rangers do wat they do best! trap!

FrAnt1c??

FrAnt1c??

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2007

Belgium

Legion Of Sacred Light [LSL]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azora
KK sins and eles farm almost all uw with perm SF now with this buff they will even farm it safer


1º ecto prices drop
2º eternal stuff prices drop
but o really dont care

i want ranger EW back! ffs let rangers do wat they do best! trap!
Won't more people farming UW, decrease the drop rate of ecto's and such?

Longasc

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Shayne
If this update makes it easier for new players (or casual player) to farm then all the better. If the average player has 20k (read somewhere) then I consider them broke. If the average / casual player wants to grind for title (something I consider a waste of time) so the much the better.
People could already farm with shadowform.

This skill adds nothing to the PvE game, it only caters to the new target group, the casual GW player... sorry, GW farmer.

Then we have skills that are still useless, like the bow attacks. Watch Yourself is now somewhat viable again, this was the positive one.



But you think about the use of Ether Renewal and Shadowform and whatever for farming. This has top priority. This game has gone downhill a lot. A dull game where the pve endgame consists of repetitive farming of the same mobs in the same area over and over.

Gun Pierson

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

Can we monks have a bit of our former solo farming glory back too? Just drop the nightmares in UW, that's all I ask for

On a more serious note, I actually find the change to 'Incoming' good. It's an elite skill afterall. Maybe the original 10 secs was a bit too much especially when combined with vocal was sogolon, but 3 secs was not worth it.

Azora

Azora

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2007

Portugal =P

We Need Fame [sOz]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²
Won't more people farming UW, decrease the drop rate of ecto's and such?

i read somewhere that god areas aret affected by over farming/loot scalling and all those things that ruined pve

soo more people means more ectos wich means they drop price (and my aprents say i suck at math)

English Warrior

English Warrior

LEET HAXXOR!

Join Date: Feb 2007

Random Arena

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²
Won't more people farming UW, decrease the drop rate of ecto's and such?
No because anet wouldnt do that and theyre not affected by loot scaling.

FengShuiDove

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

We'll see a temporary drop in ecto price as a few more people will hop into UW and blow stuff up, but it won't be major and it'll balance out after a bit. Just think back to after the SS/LB weekend when there was the favor spike. Stuff went down, people got bored and went away, prices panned out.

MrSlayer

MrSlayer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

United Kingdom

Quit Whining And [PLAY]

Mo/

Shame to see LoD won't be totally back to it's good old self.

Remember? When it also provided healing?

Frank Dudenstein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aera Lure
Izzy made a comment in an article linked somewhere else where he basically said what most people want in PvE is overpowered skills. He couldnt be more wrong, imho. PvE wants its own balance, more skills brought out from the uselessness in which they currently exist, more diverse partying. I for one never wanted overpowered skills (Ursan, this new trend) and consumables. Sigh. He is right though that the constant changes (usually nerfs) to skills is quite a bit less popular among PvE play than it is in PvP.
You are wrong ... most PvE-ers DO NOT want balance. They want overpowered skills.

Go to any Ursan thread and check out the responses. The vocal minority that wants Ursan nerfed is drowned out by the even more vocal majority that wants things easy.

R.Shayne

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longasc
People could already farm with shadowform.

This skill adds nothing to the PvE game, it only caters to the new target group, the casual GW player... sorry, GW farmer.

Would almost say caters to the casual grinder. I don't like grind and thankfully I am not forced to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longasc
Then we have skills that are still useless, like the bow attacks. Watch Yourself is now somewhat viable again, this was the positive one.
I have to agree with you here, [energizing wind] energizing wind was what I wanted, what I got leaves me scratching my head wondering what is the purpose.

[Watch Yourself] Watch Yourself I like because I used to use it in a vermin farm. I had a friend that used it on raptors too but I really think someone should start a "Save the Raptor Fund" Those poor raptors - oh wait remember what happen to me first time through that area, said a few things like "What are those?" "HELP, RAPE! "It hurts, get them off of me!!!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Longasc
But you think about the use of Ether Renewal and Shadow form and whatever for farming. This has top priority. This game has gone downhill a lot. A dull game where the pve endgame consists of repetitive farming of the same mobs in the same area over and over.
I have stated before my view of the game is limited to mainly farming because it is what I like to do. No one is forcing me to farm it is just what I like to do. "Repetitive farming of the same mobs" would get old quickly so I mix them up and use all ten toons to farm. To me it all most as much fun looking at what I will be facing and determining what build / equipment.

After reading your response about e-Mesmer skills I may have to agree with you on that one, but neither will affect me since I use [spirit [email protected]] spirit shackles and [ancestor's [email protected]] ancestor's visage when farming. The one I have used recently was [chaos storm] chaos storm with a low level primary Mesmer.

Red Sonya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Power vs fun isn't a linear relationship in gaming either.
Opinionated and certainly not what the majority thinks as UB is doing fine and well in planet GW. Now with the de-nerfing of a lot of other fun combinations we should see a LOT MORE POWERful builds in GW as well as Ursans. Power has always been the backdrop of fun in every mmorpg out there and GW has just realized it in the last two versions of their series. GW2 promises to be even better. Though many more aged people may play this game it's first and foremost built around KIDS and how KIDS think and want to play. KIDS like godmode, KIDS like cheats, KIDS like things easy and fast and don't want to work for anything. So, grow"down" peoples.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
You are wrong ... most PvE-ers DO NOT want balance. They want overpowered skills.

Go to any Ursan thread and check out the responses. The vocal minority that wants Ursan nerfed is drowned out by the even more vocal majority that wants things easy.
That only plays a role if you are saying that most PvP-ers do not want overpowered skills.