I'm just curious after seeing so many posts regarding accounts being hacked.
Seeing we technically pay for our accounts (Adding keys we pay for via in-game store or buying the games from electronic stores), would it count as a theft in real life if someone hacks into someone else's account and steals their password?
If someone added the chapters and the expansion on an account via online store or when they were first released, a single account could cost well over $100.
I don't wish to discuss the possibilities of cyberpatrol or seriousness of these crimes or the police's lack of seriousness in dealing with crimes - I'm just curious if it would be considered as theft. In addition to the immense grief hackers are causing other players, I feel there would be a more significant weight to these activities. Unlike other games in the past (Diablo II for example) the games are incorporated into an account, so the account itself should be worth monetary value.
Are Guild Wars hackers prosecutable by law if someone manages to catch them? Can Anet take legal actions against one? Yeah, sounds a little ridiculous talking about suing someone over game, but I feel this might make sense seeing there are actual money involved.
Sorry about the repetitive questions and being a bit long for Q&A section but I felt this was technically a question.
Does Stealing Accounts Equal Theft?
poasiods
Lawrence Chang
Sure, its just that it wouldn't be worth it to make a big deal out of a video game.
thesupersaver
It would likely be normal theft since a single account isnt worth so much, but could carry jail time. Also, if massive numbers of accounts were stolen, it could spell serious trouble to the perpetrator.
majikmajikmajik
technicly on all its worth, you dont "own" your account so its not stealing from you, its stealing from anet. also its unprovable that they stole your account, no trails...
GaaaaaH
I would classify it as a financial loss from the victim and a gain by the theif, soi would call it a crime.
milan
If they intended to keep the account they would show 'intent to permanently deprive' so it could be considered theft I guess.
If they were accessing the account to steal gold, materials etc and didn't try to change the password/email I guess it could be considered unlawful access to a computer system.
If they were accessing the account to steal gold, materials etc and didn't try to change the password/email I guess it could be considered unlawful access to a computer system.
arsie
Essentially it is the same as stealing a boxed game from a brick and mortar store. That is the parallel I draw about pirating mp3 and stealing a CD from a store.
I am not sure how the law enforcement agency does these things. If you stole something from a store and got caught by security or store workers, they will detain you until a police officer comes along. That is straight forward.
Whether Anet or whoever will give out IP addresses and other traces to the FBI so they'll bash down the hacker's door is another thing altogether.
So while I believe that the severity of the crime is the same as stealing a physical product, the will and means to enforce is vastly different.
I am not sure how the law enforcement agency does these things. If you stole something from a store and got caught by security or store workers, they will detain you until a police officer comes along. That is straight forward.
Whether Anet or whoever will give out IP addresses and other traces to the FBI so they'll bash down the hacker's door is another thing altogether.
So while I believe that the severity of the crime is the same as stealing a physical product, the will and means to enforce is vastly different.
KZaske
I feel that it is thieft. I wish the authorities would treat it that way.
Randvek
Theft? Not exactly. Even straight-up software piracy isn't theft; it's copyright infringement. If I wanted to go after someone who "stole" my account, rather than saying they stole your account, it might be sounder legal ground to say that they took your rights under contract with ANet. I could see an argument made for conversion, perhaps, but there may be a theory of recovery based on IP. IP isn't my area, and it might be tricky to get any sort of recovery because there isn't really an inherent difference between accounts.
Please note that I am not your lawyer, and I'm definitely not an IP lawyer. Do not consider this legal advice.
Please note that I am not your lawyer, and I'm definitely not an IP lawyer. Do not consider this legal advice.
poasiods
I just remembered that lawsuit where some music company sued a teenage girl's family because the girl had downloaded some (Well, alot of) music illegally. I suppose similar thing could be applied except it would be more of a prosecution than a lawsuit.
Zebideedee
From what I've heard, accounts don't get 'Hacked', most of the time it's greedy little gamers who go to [email protected]* , all we need is your account and pass, people stupid enought to fall for that are beyond my sympathy.
Amen, like the judges sitting in piracy/theft cases, someone should go to their houses, and raid their TV cabinets, it's the age old story of the pot calling the kettle black 
At the end of the day if you have paid cash for something and someone else uses (without your permission), then it is most definetlely theft. I've seen people on GW's selling accounts, how dumb must you be to fall for that, thats like buying a house in RL and the previous owner saying, "I'm gonna keep a copy of the keys, just incase!".
It's creepy
*Btw, this is just a fake address I made to emphasize my point, please don't click it :P
Quote:
| Theft? Not exactly. Even straight-up software piracy isn't theft |
At the end of the day if you have paid cash for something and someone else uses (without your permission), then it is most definetlely theft. I've seen people on GW's selling accounts, how dumb must you be to fall for that, thats like buying a house in RL and the previous owner saying, "I'm gonna keep a copy of the keys, just incase!".
It's creepy
*Btw, this is just a fake address I made to emphasize my point, please don't click it :P
Kumu Honua
Though if you want to get technical. Any "Hacker" could be prosecuted under cyber crimes and that's talking federal offenses across state lines.
Rushin Roulette
no it is not theft, because no physical item changed hands and the client can get Anet to return the account with enough proof of purchase and ownership.
BUT. it is cyper piracy against anet if the accounts were really "hacked" from Anet or NCsoft servers. If it was because of own stupidity (no insult intended to the players who already lost stuff/Accounts) or because of a bad password from the player it will technically be considered fraud/Hacking.
Either way, all are considered crimes and can be bought to court for. Im sure Anet will prossecute the preson responsible and forward any information to their lawyers to sort through and collect for the Police to investigate the IP adresses.
BUT. it is cyper piracy against anet if the accounts were really "hacked" from Anet or NCsoft servers. If it was because of own stupidity (no insult intended to the players who already lost stuff/Accounts) or because of a bad password from the player it will technically be considered fraud/Hacking.
Either way, all are considered crimes and can be bought to court for. Im sure Anet will prossecute the preson responsible and forward any information to their lawyers to sort through and collect for the Police to investigate the IP adresses.
capblye
Is a bank account a physical entity? no ..its a series of numbers.
If you try to take money out of my account, is that just piracy or theft?
The Law is actually clear on theft:
[QUOTE]theft n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including potential sale). In many states, if the value of the property taken is low (for example, less than $500) the crime is "petty theft," but it is "grand theft" for larger amounts, designated misdemeanor, or felony, respectively. Theft is synonymous with "larceny." Although robbery (taking by force), burglary (taken by entering unlawfully), and embezzlement (stealing from an employer) are all commonly thought of as theft, they are distinguished by the means and methods used, and are separately designated as those types of crimes in criminal charges and statutory punishments. [QUOTE\]
If you try to take money out of my account, is that just piracy or theft?
The Law is actually clear on theft:
[QUOTE]theft n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including potential sale). In many states, if the value of the property taken is low (for example, less than $500) the crime is "petty theft," but it is "grand theft" for larger amounts, designated misdemeanor, or felony, respectively. Theft is synonymous with "larceny." Although robbery (taking by force), burglary (taken by entering unlawfully), and embezzlement (stealing from an employer) are all commonly thought of as theft, they are distinguished by the means and methods used, and are separately designated as those types of crimes in criminal charges and statutory punishments. [QUOTE\]
poasiods
Hope Arenanet nails one sometimes soon to discourage the others.
Commander Ryker
This is more of a discussion than a question, so I'm moving to Riverside.
Darkobra
Well, hacking or keylogging alone is against the law. People have been taken to court before for mass stealing accounts, especially if they're making real money out of it.
Akaraxle
Stealing is a mortal sin, so you shall go to Hell.
TheRaven
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Akaraxle
Stealing is a mortal sin, so you shall go to Hell.
|
I guess it's one thing to go to the police and say hey my account was hacked. The hacker put a trojan virus on my computer and I have proof that it was David X who lives at 123 Maple Avenue 2 blocks from my house. In that case, the police may pay David a visit and possibly prosecute. (possibly)
On the other hand, we have the real world situation where the hacker is most likely in a foreign country. What are the laws in that country? Does Germany have laws against hacking? How about China? Australia? It would be a major undertaking to try and prosecute a foreigner and generally not worth the time unless this hacker is also regularly hacking into Microsoft's corporate headquarters, the Pentagon, the Capital Building and the Stock Exchange.
FeroxC
Account theft would be nothing to do with IP.
It is theft. I payed what ? (prophecies,factions,nightfall,eotn) £80 for an account with the abilitiy to play those games. Loosing that would not be joke.
Unfortutanatly this kind of theft is difficult to track(good trojans won't connect
directly to the hacker) so its not worthwhile trying to hunt them down.
Just because they get away with it doesn't mean its not seriouse.
It is theft. I payed what ? (prophecies,factions,nightfall,eotn) £80 for an account with the abilitiy to play those games. Loosing that would not be joke.
Unfortutanatly this kind of theft is difficult to track(good trojans won't connect
directly to the hacker) so its not worthwhile trying to hunt them down.
Just because they get away with it doesn't mean its not seriouse.
masta_yoda
judge would probably tell you to get on with life and stop whining
FeroxC
"Wife murdered? " Judge - "cry more plz."
Aera Lure
Of course its theft. Theft from a store is a little more easy to prove with a lot less work, so authorities usually have evidence and can seek to enter a charge. Far harder to gain proof of something online and, as I mentioned before, I cant think of a law enforcement agency anywhere that's going to investigate and press charges on video game hacking, which is why I found Anet's comment in that thread to that effect somewhat humorous.
Iuris
Law isn't actually stupid, people. The first time some German hooked himself up to the electric grid unlawfully, the courts eventually declared electricity a "moveable thing" and prosecuted him for it. Similar here.
Also, even if it isn't theft, it may be something else, depending on specific wordings. Fraud, embezzlement, ... all might offer a suitably wide definition.
And in the end: don't ask me about any specific legal system, but a law system will usually have a way allowing simple return of enrichment without entitlement may apply. The account thief was enriched (by using the account) at the expense of the legitimate owner, and there's likely a way to get that enrichment back...
Also, even if it isn't theft, it may be something else, depending on specific wordings. Fraud, embezzlement, ... all might offer a suitably wide definition.
And in the end: don't ask me about any specific legal system, but a law system will usually have a way allowing simple return of enrichment without entitlement may apply. The account thief was enriched (by using the account) at the expense of the legitimate owner, and there's likely a way to get that enrichment back...
Malice Black
Cyber crimes won't touch a case like this. They have more important things to do like catch kiddie fiddlers, ID theft etc
Ravious
[QUOTE=capblye]Is a bank account a physical entity? no ..its a series of numbers.
If you try to take money out of my account, is that just piracy or theft?
The Law is actually clear on theft:
It amuses me how you claim "Law" comes from the dictionary.
If you try to take money out of my account, is that just piracy or theft?
The Law is actually clear on theft:
Quote:
| theft n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including potential sale). In many states, if the value of the property taken is low (for example, less than $500) the crime is "petty theft," but it is "grand theft" for larger amounts, designated misdemeanor, or felony, respectively. Theft is synonymous with "larceny." Although robbery (taking by force), burglary (taken by entering unlawfully), and embezzlement (stealing from an employer) are all commonly thought of as theft, they are distinguished by the means and methods used, and are separately designated as those types of crimes in criminal charges and statutory punishments. [QUOTE\] |
Avarre
Considering players don't own the accounts they play from, I'd doubt it.
Bryant Again
Hard to tell. Stealing a users box and CD would easily be theft, but hard to tell with a Guild Wars account. We don't really "own" anything in Guild Wars, just the rights to play their game (something ANet is keen to remind us of in the EULA).
Edit: ^^ Pretty much what he said.
Edit: ^^ Pretty much what he said.
capblye
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravious
It amuses me how you claim "Law" comes from the dictionary.
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Adja1005
The problem with hacked accounts is that they arent stolen, mearly hijacked for a brief period and your ingame stuff deleted and/or screwed around with.
In theory your account is never stolen from you, its still there for you to access should you wish. Just usually the password has been changed.
Nothing of physical or material value is taken from you so im afraid that no, hacking a GW account is not really theft in theory.
In theory your account is never stolen from you, its still there for you to access should you wish. Just usually the password has been changed.
Nothing of physical or material value is taken from you so im afraid that no, hacking a GW account is not really theft in theory.
pumpkin pie
you can't label it theft, but you can call it crime, and if you have the money and time, yes you can prosecute. and arena net should. their server is being tempered with, and they do have to look after their clients interests.
Leonhart
The words in the thread title answers its self.
Stealing = Theft
So in short, yes.
Stealing = Theft
So in short, yes.
Adja1005
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pumpkin pie
you can't label it theft, but you can call it crime, and if you have the money and time, yes you can prosecute. and arena net should. their server is being tempered with, and they do have to look after their clients interests.
|
The problem with trying to take a hacked GW account or any game related account to court under the prosecution of theft is that you have to prove something of material/physical value was stolen. Basically you need to prove something that can be held, touched and prodded was stolen by the hacker.
And thats pretty hard to prove when GW is made up of coding which you cant physically hold in your hand, it has to be put on a storage medium for that to happen which in turn is a loophole in the law.
You also have to remember that the legal costs for actually investigating and then taking a hacker to court are probably 10x the amount of money you spent on paying for GW. Games like WoW are easier to take to court as you pay a monthly fee which if you've played a long time can add up to the same as the possible legal costs.
I'd say the most you could take a hacker to court over is computer fraud or use of a computer for illegal activites. At the end of the day it helps to keep your account info private and never share an email address over GW.
Lynyrd Skynyrd
I only read up to the second section and realized that you think you own your account...
ANet owns your account.
Now, you could say that the entity known as ANet could take the perpetrators to court, but that's not going to happen.
ANet owns your account.
Now, you could say that the entity known as ANet could take the perpetrators to court, but that's not going to happen.
lemming
You can sell gw accounts for a lot of money. Therefore, it's stealing.
pumpkin pie
Adja1005, I am not here to argue weather (spelling) its theft or not to steal or get into other peoples' account or any unwelcome, menacing activities that might be going on regarding a game account.
I am here to say Arena Net should look after the interest of their clients and if necessary prosecute whoever is found "stealing" manipulating, making/gaining undesirable access, whatever it is call that is related to a Guild Wars Game account.
Just add some lines to the EULA saying a prosecution will take place if anyone is found using the client to do malicious activities.
malicious activities: then must need a special clause or whatever, lawyers go figure.
I am here to say Arena Net should look after the interest of their clients and if necessary prosecute whoever is found "stealing" manipulating, making/gaining undesirable access, whatever it is call that is related to a Guild Wars Game account.
Just add some lines to the EULA saying a prosecution will take place if anyone is found using the client to do malicious activities.
malicious activities: then must need a special clause or whatever, lawyers go figure.
Zinger314
ITT: People who think they know Law from watching Judge Judy.
pumpkin pie
What is ITT?
poasiods
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lynyrd Skynyrd
I only read up to the second section and realized that you think you own your account...
ANet owns your account. Now, you could say that the entity known as ANet could take the perpetrators to court, but that's not going to happen. |
Crime or not, I guess Anet would probably have a chance if they ever manage to find someone who steals accounts and decides to sue them. I remember this thread a guy, who got hacked, made, and the guy who hacked his account whispered him to mock him - wouldn't it be possible to track such personnel down with the character name?
Holly Herro
I'd say yes.
They're taking something that you own from you with out your permission.
They're taking something that you own from you with out your permission.