Why does ANet have to cater to the "inexperienced?"

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

I still have to say that today's gamers are so spoiled they often overlook just how good they have it.

I grew up playing RPG's on the Comodore64 and Nintendo, were talking Might and Magic, Final Fantasy(the original), G I Joe and Castlevainia.

I remember a long break between playing any video games and then finding myself in AWE of FF7 on the playstation. I can actually recall thinking "This is as good as its ever gonna get!".

Now we have GuildWars, some of the best graphics and user interfaces I have every come across. A game that I have played for 3 years and put more hours into than all of the Final Fantasy games COMBINED!

After all that has been stated we still feel as though we are not getting the best, that this game is lacking in some respects. That is a good thing, to strive for perfection, to keep looking for improvements. However we must not lose sight of just how far we have come and how great this game is just as it is.

Like Final Fantasy before it, GuildWars has become a foundation game that all other games will be measured against.


Though it looks like I've wandered way off topic let me pull it together...

If future games are going to be based upon or inspired by GW then GuildWars must contain as broad of an appeal as can be created. To this end they must create a very simplistic PvE environment that caters to those just starting, as well as some rewards and challenges to long time players. It must contain both entry level and high end PvP play and everything must work bug free.

To this end I feel they have come very close to perfection, based upon where I began and where I see games going in the future.

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Now this is where I'm a bit confused: they don't really do this in the World of Warcraft.
- It has nothing to do with newbies. Do you even realize how much reputation is worth? Blizzard makes one success story after another. When they make a patch, it's not like some kid trying ice with a stick and letting community to be betatesters without wages. Nothing can change our view of ANET as bad management company. They will release GW2, it has some new tricks and will appeal to some people for a while. And after two years it all falls apart. Mark my words.

fenix

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
I'd be really impressed if ANet produced some content that was crushingly difficult, and no one could beat it. It'd show they at least had some balls left.

But they won't. Sucks.
DoA when they released it. NO ONE could beat it, complained for ages, so they nerfed it pretty hardcore. Now it's easymode. Reverting back to the original state that it was in, would make every current DoA Ursan team cry lakes of tears.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenix
DoA when they released it. NO ONE could beat it, complained for ages, so they nerfed it pretty hardcore. Now it's easymode. Reverting back to the original state that it was in, would make every current DoA Ursan team cry lakes of tears.
Wasn't it the Mantra of Frost / Greater Conflag / Winter build in use there at the time?

Or was that after they removed the enviroment effects? Or was it even harder?

Because if it was, I call for a revert.

Dr Strangelove

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
I really don't know what ANet's done with this.

As much as it pissed me off when Mallyx was bugged to shit, it was interesting because he was hard.

Now, there is nothing my guild and I can't annihilate in less than an hour. It's pathetic. That whole "post your fastest elite times" is indicative of this nonsense. We're not supposed to be able to blow through FoW in an hour.

I'd be really impressed if ANet produced some content that was crushingly difficult, and no one could beat it. It'd show they at least had some balls left.

But they won't. Sucks.
Part of the problem is that they don't know how to make hard content, they just make really big numbers. DOA is a classic example of this. None of the mobs have particularly good bars, they just have really big numbers for hp and damage. Other than that, they're the same dumb monsters with the same dumb vulnerabilities.

Some of the dungeons in EOTN would actually be decent at this, especially the dwarves in slaver's exile. However, by that point they made monsters in normal mode cluster happily on a tank, and added PvE skills in case anyone was having trouble in hard mode.

Snow Bunny

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Some of the dungeons in EOTN would actually be decent at this, especially the dwarves in slaver's exile.
Slaver's exile would've been perfect for this.


Quaker

Quaker

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Aug 2005

Canada

Brothers Disgruntled

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
This brings me to the meat of my point: If catering to the "newbie" is supposed to give you the most financial success, why is WoW doing so good, and why has ANet had to do this with Guild Wars? Why has ANet had to essentially "dumb down" the difficulty of their game? Why does ANet has to cater to the inexperienced and not Blizzard?
Catering to the newbie brings ANet financial success - not the generic "you".

WoW's financial model is based around monthly fees. It is in their best interests to keep players wanting to play each month. That is why there is always something new (to you) to strive for - so you'll pay month after month. WoW doesn't want anyone blowing through the content in a month and then quiting.

GW's financial model is based upon sales of the game. They generate no income from on-line play, so their financial model is for you to play through the content you bought, then have you buy another "campaign" or "expansion". This model does not cater to long-time experienced players. And, they may have (by studying their user base) come to the conclusion that, the easier the game becomes, the more people buy it. Or, at least, the more people buy it who haven't already bought it.
If GW charged monthly fees for their present content, it would be a vast wasteland of empty servers by now.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockholm
Blizzard makes money from monthly fees, A-net from sales of new accounts.

Try economics 101 for dummies
I'm not regarding the $ it makes per month, but how it's able to hold onto - i.e. satisfy, i.e. keep happy - such a large number of players for so long *while* keeping the end-game content and raids rather lengthy and tough to reach. As stated before, a very small minority of the playerbase has ever complete a high-end raid. How is WoW able to cater so many resources and polish to a portion of the game that so few people will see yet can still keep people happy?

And it's not like people continue to play "in strive of" entering a raid. Most have never even begun the attunements, showing that they care little for raids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
All these changes do is pump a few more bullets into the bloody corpse of "skill over time".
That's actually the crux of the problem. Why did it have to die in the first place?

Stockholm

Stockholm

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Censored

Censored

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I'm not regarding the $ it makes per month, but how it's able to hold onto - i.e. satisfy, i.e. keep happy - such a large number of players for so long *while* keeping the end-game content and raids rather lengthy and tough to reach. As stated before, a very small minority of the playerbase has ever complete a high-end raid. How is WoW able to cater so many resources and polish to a portion of the game that so few people will see yet can still keep people happy?

And it's not like people continue to play "in strive of" entering a raid. Most have never even begun the attunements, showing that they care little for raids.



That's actually the crux of the problem. Why did it have to die in the first place?
Economics 101.
The monthly fees Blizzard charges gives them the edge, they can afford more staff and there for they can work on more content at diffrent levels.
And people tend to stay with a game when they have to keep a subscription going or lose the account.
As I said Economics 101.

Ec]-[oMaN

Ec]-[oMaN

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Toronto, Ont.

[DT][pT][jT][Grim][Nion]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
That's actually the crux of the problem. Why did it have to die in the first place?
Because PVE'ers love time>skill. Bigger numbers, higher levels, titles. I heard that skill>time spent is much more relevant in PvP, something which the overall playerbase doesn't do.

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN
Because PVE'ers love time>skill. Bigger numbers, higher levels, titles. I heard that skill>time spent is much more relevant in PvP, something which the overall playerbase doesn't do.
- True. Better question: Why in the fricking hell did ANET couple everything together? PvE characters with imbalanced gear coming to PvP grounds. PvE balanced to suit minority PvP needs. Even monsters using the same neatly balanced PvP skills with little effect, because professions are made to work together as a team. Then after three years ANET finally realizes that it doesn't work, so their best shot is to überbuff a couple of skills here and there for PvE. Yep, I'm going back to Diablo II. At least the game rewards me for slaying waves of monsters.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Yep, I'm going back to Diablo II. At least the game rewards me for slaying waves of monsters.
Isn't it a bit scary when hack'n'slash is more skill > time than GW?

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockholm
The monthly fees Blizzard charges gives them the edge, they can afford more staff and there for they can work on more content at diffrent levels.
In Guild Wars, all players can see all of the content of the game. If you want to experience DoA, you can turn it to normal mode. If you want to see FoW, it just takes a moderate amount of competance.

I don't understand why, for better or worse, ANet decided to include inexperienced and - more importantly - impatient players into seeing the Hard Mode variant of all the areas.

It's not a simple "economics 101" situation, since Blizzard is not handing every player the end game raids, and in fact most don't even care about them - and it is still growing ever popular. So why do (or why does it seem like) so many Guild Wars players care so much about the hardest end game of the areas? I mean I can understand WoW not having to "cater to the impatient+inexperienced" due to the "amount of content it has", but honestly? There isn't a whole lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockholm
...And people tend to stay with a game when they have to keep a subscription going or lose the account.
This I can partly understand, but it doesn't change the fact of so few having so little interest in the raid endgame.

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
In Guild Wars, all players can see all of the content of the game. If you want to experience DoA, you can turn it to normal mode. If you want to see FoW, it just takes a moderate amount of competance.

I don't understand why, for better or worse, ANet decided to include inexperienced and - more importantly - impatient players into seeing the Hard Mode variant of all the areas.

It's not a simple "economics 101" situation, since Blizzard is not handing every player the end game raids, and in fact most don't even care about them - and it is still growing ever popular. So why do (or why does it seem like) so many Guild Wars players care so much about the hardest end game of the areas? I mean I can understand WoW not having to "cater to the impatient+inexperienced" due to the "amount of content it has", but honestly? There isn't a whole lot.



This I can partly understand, but it doesn't change the fact of so few having so little interest in the raid endgame.
There is one other thing: How spaced content is for casuall/lazy/bad player.

Take guildwars first: There is nothing that prevents player from bypasing whole areas and ignoring nonprimary quests once he hits L20. Quest rewards are pointless and players dont care about quest lore at all.

Result? Players ignore MAJORITY of (cool) content. Its of no value to them, anything you get from quests is obtainable by farming - and much faster. (It used to be different with prohecies skill rewards and quirky items with weird stats. Gwen done one thing actually right and fixed it with actually worthy stuff like lockpicks, crafting materials and (pve) skills as quest rewards.)

So people skip normal content (because they have no reason to do it) and reach hardcore-ish content very soon and are motivated to do it because it is where all the worthy stuff like loot and titles is.

In WoW there is a bit less content for character (leaving out all those areas you outlevel before you reach em.) but players are required to to throught nearly all of it and it takes a lot of time.

Result? Player are busy and grinding their kill 50 pig-like-creatures quests. They dont reach hardcore content anytime soon and by time they do they either burn out and quit, get altitis or actually become hardcore.

---

Simple:

Give people choice of killing rats and dragons, they are gonna go dragon hunting.

In Gw they got that choice.

In WoW they dont.

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus
Isn't it a bit scary when hack'n'slash is more skill > time than GW?
- I don't know about skill, but the game is fun. People should consider picking up Chess or Go for intellectual pursuit, not computer games with selling point on graphics and adventure. I'm serious. Trying to stretch engines like GW's to cater all kinds of audiences just won't work in the long run. GW's PvP is fun, but some people are taking it way too seriously. GW2 will be sold as "free to play MMO", because that's where the money is. ANET can't compete with real PvP games without sacrificing much of playerbase.

Longasc

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

If we want to see the kind of dumbed down game design that I fear for GW2, just play Age of Conan.

It is piss easy, you cannot die. Pull all mobs, you will survive. The only thing that can kill you are actually other players.

Once people are through the content, have seen all the different models and textures, they will be bored to hell. Which is a pity, as Hyboria has such a great atmosphere.

But as we got told: FUN is overpowered skills, mobs dropping like flies and "great atmosphere".

A MMO needs more to keep people interested over more than one month than that. This is shortsighted design, and I hope ANet does not deliver us something that looks cool but has no lasting value at all.

Snow Bunny

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockholm
Economics 101.
The monthly fees Blizzard charges gives them the edge, they can afford more staff and there for they can work on more content at diffrent levels.
And people tend to stay with a game when they have to keep a subscription going or lose the account.
As I said Economics 101.
Judging by your analogy, I doubt you a. took economics 101 b. took it and did well/understood it.
If Anet developed good content and kept the playerbase engaged, they'd sell more units, which would in turn compensate for the increased costs of producing better content. OSHIT - ECONOMICS 101 - OPPORTUNITY COSTS. Anet judged that the opportunity costs of producing more/better content outweighed the income from sales, and they judged wrong, judging by my dead f-list. If Anet produced a mini-expansion every several months with great content, assured I'd shovel out cash for that. They gambled on their marketing, and to their demise.

Hopefully they improve upon this with GW2, as well as improve on their Community Relations. Having your CR deny the existence of something confirmed by dozens of players is always GREAT FOR YOUR IMAGE.

ReZDoGG

ReZDoGG

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

Indian Township, ME

Nativ War Party (NWP)

Rt/Mo

They cater to inexperienced people, because the are INEXPERIENCED! They don't want to make things hard to the point where people are going to give up on the game, they want people to beable to have a fun and beable to make money... The new Pve/Pvp skill balance system I thought was something they should have had since beginning, alot of skills changes for pvp hurt pve big time, and most of us experienced that and it disappointed us big time. I also thought Ursan was a good thing in the game, as it gives people a chance to get into a group to go places they wouldn't normally go, like UW/FoW. Its fun, its easy, and if you don't like it, cry somewheres else or play another game... simple as that. But I do understand that people without EoTN or high Ursan rank won't get into UW/Fow groups, but that only means they will have to work on their rank, or get EoTN for their own benefit. Ursan groups makes UW/Fow more successful than ever, instead of having people in the group leave alot quicker than they do now, just because of alittle difficulty they might encounter... There we way more "giver uppers" before Ursan, than there is now. I like it, but I can't speak for those who don't have EoTN or too lazy to level up their Rank. All in all, Guildwars/Anet does what they do best for the players, if they only catered to "experienced" players, than inexperienced players won't get anywheres fast. Experienced players should be all set with any change in the game, if you can't handle certain things, than maybe think about quitting the game? And another thing, Guildwars doesn't compare/base their own gameplan to WoW, I personally think WoW is a game of the past and its for people that have too much time on their hands. Guildwars will continue to be one of the great games, especially when Gw2 comes out. Alot of newbie WoW fans will most likely leave and go to Gw2 cause of no monthly fees, popularity, meeting their expectations/needs, and mainly just because its going to be great overall, not to mention it will be a new game... not something that has the same crappy graphics or cartoonish type look for more than a few years now. WoW does have alot more players, but thats only because WoW is alot older than GW, and it was the best in its own days. But now, people are going to start moving into the future... except for those hardcore WoW players that spent the last 2-5 years spending money and time to get the best experience possible in WoW, and won't leave WoW because of everything they invested into the game. Good thing about Guildwars, it allows you to play other games and enjoy them, and come back anytime you want... and not worry about wasting money on it, as you have an account for life of GW.

Anything that Anet has been doing, has nothing to do with "dumbing down" the game, they are just doing things they should have done awhile ago to improve the pve and pvp experience at the same time, instead of having one or the other effect both types of gameplay when they should of been seperate to begin with. Anet continues to do the best for the game, and I thank them for that. They put alot of time and effort to keep us playing and keep us interested by giving us more stuff to do. I honestly don't have much complaints about the PvE aspect of the game, and I been doin nothing but PvE for the past 2 and half years. The game is GREAT, and it will continue to be GREAT. Of course there are those very few things that could be fixed or improved, but thats all just work in progress as they listen to their fans/customers/players.

We can expect great things to happen in GW2 regardless, and GW1 will still continue to leave on no matter what... they said themselves they will not leave GW1 behind just because of GW2, they will continue to work on GW1. Of course they will have teams to work on both projects at the same time, since they will have enough success to beable to hire all the people they need to meet their goals. The new Pve/Pvp skill balance system was one the best things they ever did for the game, now there is no more complaints about "nerfs" for pve players just because something is effecting pvp. Enough said I guess, Great things and positive thoughts is all we need. ANet caters to us all!

Winch

Winch

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2008

R/

ANET is trying to make the game more addictive to new players. What I mean is, that I haven't played the game that much in the beginning, until I realized how the game really works. So I played 1 hour a day. Now, I enjoy the game, cuz I know how to do well, what (for example) a ranger, is good for and capable of. (at first I thought it was meant to be a dmg dealing char...as it was in other mmos) nowadays I'm on around 3-4 hours, and clearly enjoy the game without ursan or so.

As for GW2: There are people who are waiting for GW2 to be the real GW MMO, and there are those who are waiting for it cuz of curiosity. The newcomers eventually want to play GW2, and ANet decided to let them earn achievements easier. This may be irritating for the rest of us, but we should see, that there are skillful players among those who play ursan in pve (because its impossible to get into PUGs and maybe the rest of his/her guild does only pvp.), and are able to play PVP well (even better than us) without it. They may despise ursan too, but they just can't get to elite areas to see them, or beat them, cuz the veterans have already beaten them a dozen times, and they dont care. And there are lots of people, who recenty bought or are going to buy GW. They just cant afford to learn the hard way, as we did once, cuz of the lack of time BUT if they want to, they still can try it. That depends on the player...

The rewards in GW2 should be calculated from the account age AND achievements.

ogre_jd

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Canadia

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Take guildwars first: There is nothing that prevents player from bypasing whole areas and ignoring nonprimary quests once he hits L20. Quest rewards are pointless and players dont care about quest lore at all.
Players here don't care about the 'lore' (mainly because most have been through it so many times), but I'll bet you'll find that most people, especially on their first couple of times through, are reading every word and picking up every quest they can find (remember, not everyone searches the wikis to find quest location lists).

As for bypassing whole areas, a problem mainly confined to Prophecies, that could easily (and should, IMHO) be fixed - in Prophecies, that can be easily solved by flooding the Cursed Land (or the eastern end of Tears of the Fallen) and a big avalanche in Lornar's Pass (the Stone Summit're probably pissed at all these Humans traipsing about their lands and likely would have no trouble causing one). Wouldn't be much work for ANet and would solve a lot of problems.

Adding a few strategically-placed locked gates and making sure you can't do Missions out of order (of course, for foreigners that'd be counted only from D'Allessio Seaboard onwards; Primary Quests would also require the Missions be done first, of course) would probably be a good idea, too....

samifly

samifly

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Girl Power [GP]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre_jd

As for bypassing whole areas, a problem mainly confined to Prophecies, that could easily (and should, IMHO) be fixed - in Prophecies, that can be easily solved by flooding the Cursed Land (or the eastern end of Tears of the Fallen) and a big avalanche in Lornar's Pass (the Stone Summit're probably pissed at all these Humans traipsing about their lands and likely would have no trouble causing one). Wouldn't be much work for ANet and would solve a lot of problems.

Adding a few strategically-placed locked gates and making sure you can't do Missions out of order (of course, for foreigners that'd be counted only from D'Allessio Seaboard onwards; Primary Quests would also require the Missions be done first, of course) would probably be a good idea, too....
dear god I hope not. Prophecies attraction to many is its non-linear questing. Factions and Nightfall you find people doing quests cause they are forced to. Not cause they like em. GWEN is better at this, using the carrot rather than the stick for quests.

Balan Makki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Well Bryant, I think this is where so many GW players differ with WoW players. And why GW has been so successful against a 10,000 pound Evercrack Gorrilla.

You say GW was made easier--yes, and NO. It was made more accessible at the same time Hard Mode was added. GW players are given options: go leisurely through the game, or challenge yourself working for a Survivor Title in HM.

WoW does not have this luxury, nor the option. You have only one choice (No Options) in WoW. If Blizzard catered to both casual and hardcore players, their business model would self implode. They need 10 million players addicted to endless grinds, farming for gear to generate income. They need to "dribble" out the gear so you, and the 10 million others, get titillated when the EPIXS appear. Getting rare drops is orgasmic for most WoW players. Making gear drippings difficult vs time-grinds is where WoW has garnered it's greatest achievement. And for many who have played WoW, they have realize the utter absurdity and gimmick behind this illusion. This business model is worth a billion dollars in revenue, and will soon rival prostitution and Vegas gambling, albeit far safer in the short term.

In all our debates on WoW vs GW you choose to see things only one way--your way. As bright as you seem to be, you frankly lack good deductive reasoning. I also contend that you have an addiction that you fail to admit to, choose to ignore. Granted, any game, even GW, gives many of us a false sense of self worth, sometimes much needed when RL is lacking in challenge or achievement. All I can offer is a very simple solution: Vendor and Delete, (it's how I finally got the Evercrack Gorilla off my back. Unfortunately for many of my friends who lost jobs, wives, ruined relationships, they're still playing WoW at a very unhealthy level.)

No, Arena Net did not make things easier, they made them more accessible, at the same time they added HM. This is the future. This is also why Strain, O'Brien, Wyatt and company left Blizzard during WoW development to create GW. They knew that Blizzard and the newly hired Evercrack fan club was headed down a path of exploitation as peddlers of computer crack; rather than developers of good gaming, of which Blizzard had a tremendous history. WoW has just become the new Disney channel for adults, with 10 million mouseketeers bouncing around looking for a new mouse hat with better stats.

Quote:
Blizzard's Next MMO will be a GW Clone (It's already started: Max lvl characters for PvP anyone??)
Harsh post, I know, but I want to truth to hurt a bit, perhaps even burn a while.

pamelf

pamelf

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Australia

Lost Templars [LoTe]

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balan Makki
You say GW was made easier--yes, and NO. It was made more accessible at the same time Hard Mode was added. GW players are given options: go leisurely through the game, or challenge yourself working for a Survivor Title in HM.
That is so true. Well said.

Snow Bunny

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

As to Gw2 being a triumphant success...

Typically, the past actions/decisions of an entity will not be so different than their future decisions. With this in mind, understanding how thoroughly Arena Net has driven their product into the ground, I have little faith in Guild Wars 2.

Their Community Relations department is a travesty; between outright lies and clueless denial, their selection of CR does not reflect well on upper-managerial judgement in the slightest.

Violation of their own terms (rawr/Andrew Patrick in this instance) breaks the tenuous contractual trust between company and consumer.

Eye of the North's heavy promotion then subsequent let-down has seriously stygmatized their image, at least for me. The advertisement of so much new and challenging content, only to be confronted with remodels and content that (excluding vanquishing - I don't count Vanquishing/Guardian as content, because it's a redo) last 11 hours. I discussed the whole deal with a friend of mine at work, a lawyer dealing with commercial fraud - he agreed with my belief that the whole EotN situation is borderline false-advertisement.

Finally, taking away the global tournaments for GvG is pathetic, especially to replace them with ATs. In doing that, ANet drove away a significant numbers of the best players in the world. Driving away customers through petty scrimps is absurd; ANet is a business, they can't afford that.


I could go on, I want to go on, I should go on. But this is some thread full of people complaining that dumbing down the game is good. It's not a complain about Gw thread, but as for Gw2 being good, I'll wait for the Koreans to play it first; they read ANet perfectly.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balan Makki
You say GW was made easier--yes, and NO. It was made more accessible at the same time Hard Mode was added. GW players are given options: go leisurely through the game, or challenge yourself working for a Survivor Title in HM.
The only way to make it accessible is by, in essence, making it easier - which sucks. This means the difficultly becomes toned down, disappointing those who enjoyed a good challenge.

These days, the only reasons I'm becoming challenged in Guild Wars is because I'm not using the tools given to me. I am not using "Save Yourselves", I am not using Ursan Blessing, I am not using consumables. What does this mean? It means I am gimping myself. The only way Guild Wars has becoming challenging is because I have to make it so, and that's not satisfying. It's not a "personal problem", either: If getting a good challenge was as easy as gimping yourself then difficulty settings would've been a dead concept years ago.

I'll state again: I have no problem with someone playing on an easier difficulty. I *do*, however, have a problem with having the hardest difficulty being turned into the easiest difficulty. That is the problem with Guild Wars. It shows right there that ANet is catering to people who do not want to improve their skills, to learn how to play, and who just "want it nao". If you're saying that that's the "future", than GW2 is, frankly, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO'ed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balan Makki
Harsh post, I know, but I want to truth to hurt a bit, perhaps even burn a while.
Interesting. Before, when you were "harsh", you just wanted to see how I reacted and that you "didn't mean it". It's good to see your honest intentions. I've also told you - repeatedly - that WoW has not interfered with my personal life. Whether or not you wish to believe that is up to you, but if you don't then please do not presume to know "the truth".

And Zwei: Solid post, especially about the point of bypassing the major and cool content. Do you think providing better incentives for different tasks would be the way to go in GW2?

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
And Zwei: Solid post, especially about the point of bypassing the major and cool content. Do you think providing better incentives for different tasks would be the way to go in GW2?
Definitelly!

If GW2 will go with (sucky) Everquest model then it is inevitable that it will happen, players will always have immediate goal of next level and next item with 1 extra DPS. Quests and questlike taks can easily space this out to gargantuan amount of content player has to do.

Players will be busy doing low level stuff and eventually reach highend stuff and be used to radical dificulty increases because they will have exprience from transfering between L1 to L5 to L10 to Lx ... areas. So new hard content wouldn't make them noticeably upset.

If GW2 follows GW1 model (we can always hope) it is simple matter of ballancing quests relative to farming or by giving rewards that are virtually unfarmable (weapon upgrades, etc.).

For example, if "55hp" monk of GW2 appears, quests should immediatelly be retooled to provide better rewards than farming with it or that farm needs to be nerfed. Of course, both should happen to some degree.

For example, if THE way to get sizeable wealth was questing in GW1, played content would increase radically. Explorables like Waijun would change from "spend total 20 minutes in here" to "spend day in here".

Best thing is that player can ignore this content and just rush to finish storyline or so. However, he has very stong incentive to come back.

ogre_jd

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Canadia

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei2stein
For example, if THE way to get sizeable wealth was questing in GW1, played content would increase radically. Explorables like Waijun would change from "spend total 20 minutes in here" to "spend day in here".
We must be thinking about different areas, then, 'cos out all of the Kaineng City explorables, Wajjun Bazaar is the one you have to spend the longest amount of time in running around, not even counting the non-Primary quests. Dunno about you, but for me it takes a couple of evenings to get through all the stuff that you need to do there. Of course, if you're the type who doesn't bother with anything but the Primary Quests, you might spend less time there.

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre_jd
We must be thinking about different areas, then, 'cos out all of the Kaineng City explorables, Wajjun Bazaar is the one you have to spend the longest amount of time in running around, not even counting the non-Primary quests. Dunno about you, but for me it takes a couple of evenings to get through all the stuff that you need to do there. Of course, if you're the type who doesn't bother with anything but the Primary Quests, you might spend less time there.
It is exactly that area, and its exactly that point.

People usually don't bother with non primary quests once they hit L20 (especially on their X-th character). As you dont really need to do there anything else.

If they would do it they would indeed spend several evenings there.

Red Sand

Red Sand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2008

New England

Warriors of Wynd [WoW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I'll state again: I have no problem with someone playing on an easier difficulty. I *do*, however, have a problem with having the hardest difficulty being turned into the easiest difficulty. That is the problem with Guild Wars. It shows right there that ANet is catering to people who do not want to improve their skills, to learn how to play, and who just "want it nao". If you're saying that that's the "future", than GW2 is, frankly, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO'ed.
Here's the deal and the reality: We don't know exactly what the Devs are going to do with GW2. None of us posting on these threads has a freaking clue what GW2 is going to be like. We have ideas; we have wishes; we have suppositions; we have dreams; we have nightmares. All we know is what GW is like now, and a lot of us don't like the direction that it has gone in.

Fine. I don't care personally. Change is not necessarily a bad thing. The fact that it's easier for someone new to play the game doesn't hurt me. You can do Prophecies with heroes if you want to; I didn't, even though I had them available. I don't use Ursan and it doesn't hurt me that people do. I don't care if you can farm UW, DoA, and FoW, get all the loot and all the titles in half the time. Doesn't affect how I play my game. Crying about it isn't going to change anything.

Now, here's my brand new one minute philosphy on ANet making it easier on the unskilled new player:

HEY WORLD: Buy Guild Wars! It's a fun game and not that hard unless you want it to be. Buy all of the chapters, every expansion pack. Skip major areas of content and get to the End Game in days. Title grinders, grind away. Ursan farmers, Ursan your heart out. Armor collectors, collect them all. Have some fun and make ANet some money.

Veteran players, I got some advice for you: Follow the above example and pimp this game like it's making you money.

Players that really love GW need GW to be more accessible, fun, easier, to get more new people to play. We need them to buy all of the chapters, bonus packs and expansions so that ANet has the cash on hand to develop GW2, and the population to encourage investors to support GW2. Unless you want to pay to play GW2, that's the model that GW has to follow.

Don't get me wrong, Everquest, great game; WoW, great game, but GW is a great different game and I'd like it to stay that way. Hopefully GW2 will be a game we can all enjoy without following the same Everquest model that WoW patterned itself after, but the bottom line is it takes real money to make that happen.

This thread has outlived it's usefullness: It ain't making ANet No Money.

Now, get back out on the street and go make Daddy some money, before he slaps you and gives Ursan to level 1 Wammo's in the freaking tutorials.

Snorph

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2007

Riverside,Ca

Kings Of Heaven And Earth

E/Me

Has anyone mentioned the fact that Billizard is comming out with a new expansion that has alot of players kind of mad about it? The Lich King that users that never played the game will be able to start out with a level 50 or 70 char and that has never played the game before will be able to now?

I used to play WoW but now I play nothing but GW.

Some of my friends are die hard WoW players and they don't like the fact that a user can go out and buy the game and start with a high level char.

To me Anet and Billazard are doing or is doign the samething. Carter too all players noob's or experanced players.

When EOTN came out, you were giving a high level char to start with, now WoW is doing the samething.

StormDragonZ

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
Typically, the past actions/decisions of an entity will not be so different than their future decisions. With this in mind, understanding how thoroughly Arena Net has driven their product into the ground, I have little faith in Guild Wars 2.
I completely agree just from that statement. As it stands, I'm going to wait a few months after GW2's release to see what exactly it is and what to expect. I still enjoy being able to post this quote whenever possible:

Quote:
Guild Wars was so new and different when it came out that we didn’t know what would happen with the game. I think we succeeded in some places and failed in others, but we have years now of experience in learning how to build the best Guild Wars game possible. I’m really excited about Guild Wars 2, I think it’s going to be a better game all around: a better roleplaying experience for the roleplayers and a better PvP experience for the PvPers.

Aera Lure

Aera Lure

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

In Baltar's head

Bring Out Your Dead [BOYD], former officer [LBS]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
These days, the only reasons I'm becoming challenged in Guild Wars is because I'm not using the tools given to me. I am not using "Save Yourselves", I am not using Ursan Blessing, I am not using consumables. What does this mean? It means I am gimping myself. The only way Guild Wars has becoming challenging is because I have to make it so, and that's not satisfying. It's not a "personal problem", either: If getting a good challenge was as easy as gimping yourself then difficulty settings would've been a dead concept years ago.
This is why I see Anet as responsible ultimately for the balance and longevity of a game. They need to design it such that its balanced and has the right level of challenge per the reward. Its what I hope for GW2 because I dont currently see it in action in GW.

For example, it makes no sense currently to go off and do Survivor in HM specifically only while playing the game via missions, maybe some vanquishing etc. A lot easier, yes, to play for Survivor in NM and maybe get assistance getting to a location where you can easily grind out the title (HFFF or Punchout). A lot harder to do it in HM. The end result is the same title, so its silly to make it harder on yourself by not using what Anet makes available to the given task, and this is true across the board not just with titles but with most of the game's gameplay (broken builds, Ursan, etc).

Sure, I can make the game harder for myself quite easily, but its up to Anet in the end to make such a choice not be Quixotic one.

Balan Makki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aera Lure
Sure, I can make the game harder for myself quite easily, but its up to Anet in the end to make such a choice not be Quixotic one.
Easy or hard, when you play an RP MMO you ARE Don Quixote. Could A Net have done things differently? You bet ya. Are they doing things differently? I'd bet you anything they are.

Bryant wants a difficulty slider, basically the same thing as NM/HM. There are so many more challenges in GW than WoW I'm tired off even thinking about it. Bryant chooses to see things his way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorph
Has anyone mentioned the fact that Gizzard is coming out with a new expansion that has a lot of players kind of mad about it? The Lich King that users that never played the game will be able to start out with a level 50 or 70 char and that has never played the game before will be able to now?
The conversion to the Light Side is almost complete.

Quote:
Blizzard's next (current) MMO will be a GW Clone
The OP is nothing more than a veiled desire for GW to be more like WoW, in that only an elite few will have access to the endgame gear and content.

Sorry gang, this thread is just another WoW fanboy attempt to may GW2 into WoW.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sand
Players that really love GW need GW to be more accessible, fun, easier, to get more new people to play. We need them to buy all of the chapters, bonus packs and expansions so that ANet has the cash on hand to develop GW2, and the population to encourage investors to support GW2. Unless you want to pay to play GW2, that's the model that GW has to follow.
But it doesn't appease to the casual player, but to the inexperienced and impatient. Here's a good example from another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyy High
Guess what? If you grind norn up to r10 and proceed to Ursan FoW, DoA, UW, etc...YOU'RE NOT A CASUAL PLAYER!

Ursan doesn't help casual players, it helps BAD players, LAZY players, players who couldn't give a crap about the (formerly) innovative gameplay of GW and build-making, but just want all the shiny stuff that other players have. That's it! Stop defending Ursan as if it's the great equalizer between casuals and hardcore players; if anyone took the time spent grinding up norn rank and doing elite missions and dungeons in ursanway, and instead read up on good skill use and how to make a good build, and then followed the advice of experienced players, they could do anything any veteran can do. But no, no, let's just set our brains aside for a while and Ursan our way to the shinies, and then cower under the guise of "I'm just a poooooor casual player, this is the only way I can beat those big mean dungeons."

Actual casual players are playing and enjoying the storyline, the environment, the game, not wasting their few hours of enjoyment grinding away at a title.
While it doesn't mention the other overpowered builds and skills, the message is still widely applicable. So, how does catering to another minority provide more "money?" If anything it's turned away another minority, those who prefer a challenge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balan Makki
Bryant wants a difficulty slider, basically the same thing as NM/HM. There are so many more challenges in GW than WoW I'm tired off even thinking about it. Bryant chooses to see things his way.
There is indeed a difficulty slider, but it's pretty much pointless since ANet has made the whole thing easy. As an example, it would be like playing Doom on the Nightmare difficulty and being given double the ammo, double the damage, double the armor, and double the health. In GW, they've made the hard difficulty just as easy as the normal difficulty. That doesn't make sense. That's not "catering to the casual player", that's appeasing to the impatient and unwilling player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balan Makki
The OP is nothing more than a veiled desire for GW to be more like WoW, in that only an elite few will have access to the endgame gear and content.

Sorry gang, this thread is just another WoW fanboy attempt to may GW2 into WoW.
You seem to have missed the point I said earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I'll state again: I have no problem with someone playing on an easier difficulty. I *do*, however, have a problem with having the hardest difficulty being turned into the easiest difficulty.
And do you even know why I've played GW for so long? Because it wasn't WoW. I don't want to spend an additional fifty bucks for the same but prettier game.

And Snorph: You can only have the instant level 55 Death Knight (and Death Knight only) after you've had a character of at least level 55. One Death Knight per account.

Ec]-[oMaN

Ec]-[oMaN

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Toronto, Ont.

[DT][pT][jT][Grim][Nion]

W/

There shouldn't really be a correlation between accessibility and difficulty if you really want to build a decent game. It also depends on the game type genre. In GW a non pay per month game making things ultra difficult and harder to access doesn't please the majority. In WoW a pay to play game it's just another business aspect to make things harder to access with high difficulty, it keeps the customers paying month by month just so they can get to that level to access such things, never mind having a hope of even completing them.

PvP games, and FPS are the perfect example of great games and game types, the accessibility is there to anyone, doesn't mean you'll be good enough to beat the other person or team though. Example, GW gvg, CS, Starcraft, Streetfighter.

wilq

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

[RTF]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorph
Has anyone mentioned the fact that Billizard is comming out with a new expansion that has alot of players kind of mad about it? The Lich King that users that never played the game will be able to start out with a level 50 or 70 char and that has never played the game before will be able to now?
wait, what? stop talking out of your ass

Red Sand

Red Sand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2008

New England

Warriors of Wynd [WoW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
But it doesn't appease to the casual player, but to the inexperienced and impatient.
Well, I have to say I disagree with your idea on the desires of the casual player: I think that there are tons of casual players who are taking the time to title grind and farm, a la Ursan, because it's easier. But you missed my point: I never said anything about ANet trying to "appease" the casual player.

I'm a casual player. I started playing GW late last year. After about three months of PvE play, I discovered GW PvP and it helped shift my thoughts away from PvE.

As a casual player, I don't get any more satisfaction killing mobs in Hell's Precipice than I got killing mobs in Muramite Proving Grounds three years ago. The same old game doesn't get anymore enjoyable just because the mobs get bigger and look different.

As a casual player, I am uninterested in another Everquest-like grind. To me, title grinding in GW is the same as experience grinding in WoW and EQ, and farming in GW is the same as farming in any other RPG.

ANet isn't getting anymore money out of me. I don't have EToN, there is nothing in it for me except a bunch of "superior" skills that I can play the game without. I don't really need them to RA, TA, AB, and HA. I use 6 of 8 character slots and only 1 of them is PvE.

The way that ANet is going to make more money is to market the game to the title grinder, whether casual or not. ANet is going to make more money from the latecomer to GW who is going to play through the game and get all the titles and buy all of the expansions as an investment in GW2.

You folks that have been here since Beta, who don't care about titles, well, ANet's got your money. You folks been here since Beta that love titles and armor collecting, ANet's got your money. Latecomers like me, who could care less about titles, they got my money too.

AND ANet is unconcerned that we aren't going to buy GW2 when it hits the streets, because we will.

Now, that new guy that wants to be a big bad toon like you guys been here since beta flashing all your cool armor and Uber Titles, ANets marketing to them, and to all the casual players who didn't put in the time that the hardcore players did. ANet's marketing "Don't be Left Behind: Catchup!" ANet wants them out buying the chapters and expansions, and they want him to buy GW2 when it comes out. That's why they put Prophecies and EToN in a package together. Eventually these people will finish those and go back for Factions and Nightfall.

You veterans, been here since Beta, once you bought the game three years ago, all you've been all these years is someone who costs ANet money in electricity costs. Except when you bought Factions, NF, and EToN.

And when ANet released EToN, they weren't catering to the same audience that they were when they released Factions or Nightfall.

Bryant knows that, he knows why, he just doesn't accept it. Nothing we can say will change it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sand
None of us posting on these threads has a freaking clue what GW2 is going to be like.
/rubs ears

"Wooosaahh"

Clarissa F

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

Fighters of the Shiverpeaks

Me/Mo

re RedSand:

Well, that's pretty much it, in a nutshell. They will have the advantage of not being fee-based. Otherwise, it will be the same old MMO with different art. If you want challenge, they have PvP. People who like a challenge, but prefer to solo or just play with a few friends, will either have to gimp themselves, or not play the game.

Thing is, it's a long time till the fall of 2009. A long time, with a lot of developers to see an opening.

Love the Bad Boys II quote, btw.

Balan Makki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2007

Bryant, also keep in mind that you are mixing apples and oranges, Again. Remove Heroes and Henchies from GW and what do you get? Better yet, add Heroes and Henchies to WoW and what do you get?? Apples and apples, or oranges and oranges. Again, a feature that adds accessibility and Options. A feature light years ahead of what WoW has to offer.

As much as players complain about A.I. companions, H/H are somewhere on the order of 400% more efficient than regular players when poop hits the fan. Anyone who PuGs will tell you this. Would you PuG while working for a survivors title? You'd be crazy to try it. Do you pug to get things done? I'll speak for the majority here, and so, No, You Do Not Pug to Get Things Done. You PuG to be with friends, or meet other players, be part of a real team. It's one reason I had focused heavily on the Paragon class for a time. But all I ended up doing was Rezzing near wipes every 2 minutes. When you play with real players, GW is far more difficult than WoW to master--especially when you remove the H/H from the equation. Why do you think Arena Net added Player only Skills? Come on, use some deductive reasoning here, you can do it. . . Ursan, TNtF, SY, FH ? ? ? ? ?

So many times when helping out smaller guilds in WoW by leading raids into some of the lesser dungeons, it was really a sad experience watching what amounted to 24 other players in inadequate gear, having spent the week farming consumables, only to fail miserably at the first Boss; because they lacked the time to be Uber. This is what Blizzard wants to happen, it's part of the game system, and a complete failure compared to GW. Most of these players had real lives. WoW caters to No Lifers, it's a simple fact. If you play WoW to it's fullest, you lack a real life. An indisputable fact. This is a function of World of Warcraft. Blizzard wants you to waist your time. They are making money on you when you waist your time. You have stated over and over, you want to waist more time, Sorry, but you really do lack sound reasoning skills. You choose to see otherwise, you are lost to it, and now you've started yet another thread pushing for a free version of WoW developed by Arena Net. What would have happened if these players in lesser guilds had split up into three groups and added Arena Net's H/H to fill out the bulk of their team? They would have Steamrolled these supposedly "Hard" WoW instances.

I'll guarantee you one thing, If Arena Net removes H/H from GW2 to force PuGing, you'll see far fewer GW1 players buying in, until Arena Net inevitably adds the feature back in some capacity.

Nope, WoW is a much much much easier game to play as a time sink, PuG based game than GW has ever been or ever will be. . . GW players have an option. Challenge yourself, which I do all the time, or take the easier, more casual route which I'm also glad to have available.

Many who play GW play because of options. You have a choice in GW. Some of us even feel less idiotic having discovered early on what WoW was about, having discovered the time-sink tricks they employed to make our fun time more difficult. Enjoy WoW while you can. Even Conan; in a few years the MMO genre will have taken a dramatic turn for the better.

Oh, and please start more threads such as these, Arena Net needs encouragement why their choosen path is the right one.

The Way Out

The Way Out

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2007

In my peanut brain

Zomg Zombies [OMG]

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balan Makki
Bryant, also keep in mind that you are mixing apples and oranges, Again. Remove Heroes and Henchies from GW and what do you get? Better yet, add Heroes and Henchies to WoW and what do you get?? Apples and apples, or oranges and oranges. Again, a feature that adds accessibility and Options. A feature light years ahead of what WoW has to offer.

As much as players complain about A.I. companions, H/H are somewhere on the order of 400% more efficient than regular players when poop hits the fan. Anyone who PuGs will tell you this. Would you PuG while working for a survivors title? You'd be crazy to try it. Do you pug to get things done? I'll speak for the majority here, and so, No, You Do Not Pug to Get Things Done. You PuG to be with friends, or meet other players, be part of a real team. It's one reason I had focused heavily on the Paragon class for a time. But all I ended up doing was Rezzing near wipes every 2 minutes. When you play with real players, GW is far more difficult than WoW to master--especially when you remove the H/H from the equation. Why do you think Arena Net added Player only Skills? Come on, use some deductive reasoning here, you can do it. . . Ursan, TNtF, SY, FH ? ? ? ? ?

So many times when helping out smaller guilds in WoW by leading raids into some of the lesser dungeons, it was really a sad experience watching what amounted to 24 other players in inadequate gear, having spent the week farming consumables, only to fail miserably at the first Boss; because they lacked the time to be Uber. This is what Blizzard wants to happen, it's part of the game system, and a complete failure compared to GW. Most of these players had real lives. WoW caters to No Lifers, it's a simple fact. If you play WoW to it's fullest, you lack a real life. An indisputable fact. This is a function of World of Warcraft. Blizzard wants you to waist your time. They are making money on you when you waist your time. You have stated over and over, you want to waist more time, Sorry, but you really do lack sound reasoning skills. You choose to see otherwise, you are lost to it, and now you've started yet another thread pushing for a free version of WoW developed by Arena Net. What would have happened if these players in lesser guilds had split up into three groups and added Arena Net's H/H to fill out the bulk of their team? They would have Steamrolled these supposedly "Hard" WoW instances.

I'll guarantee you one thing, If Arena Net removes H/H from GW2 to force PuGing, you'll see far fewer GW1 players buying in, until Arena Net inevitably adds the feature back in some capacity.

Nope, WoW is a much much much easier game to play as a time sink, PuG based game than GW has ever been or ever will be. . . GW players have an option. Challenge yourself, which I do all the time, or take the easier, more casual route which I'm also glad to have available.

Many who play GW play because of options. You have a choice in GW. Some of us even feel less idiotic having discovered early on what WoW was about, having discovered the time-sink tricks they employed to make our fun time more difficult. Enjoy WoW while you can. Even Conan; in a few years the MMO genre will have taken a dramatic turn for the better.

Oh, and please start more threads such as these, Arena Net needs encouragement why their choosen path is the right one.
Anet has dropped the ball many times over the years. I personally believe they should charge us a fee to play and add more content into the game. I would not only pay to play, I would stay for the long haul. I lose my interest quickly in GW because once you do everything, there is little else to do.