The problem of PvE skills.

/signed

I'm sick of grinding

whats funny is that topics like this get started almost every day now...
if they where going to do something about it you'd think it'd be done by now...

so can the people who don't like pve skills not use them and leave the people that don't have the time to set up a "normal" team alone? and about not being able to find a group unless you have rank 8+ ursan, there are so many people that hate ursan I find that hard to believe, yes iv been to ToA where all you see is looking for rank 8+ ursan, but just get some friends or join a guild that likes the thrill of doing an elite area in 2 and a half hours just cuz "there more leet for useing a non-ursan build"

if someone has a fair nerf for pve skills thats fine, but if someone is saying "nerf it to the ground cuz the people that spent time to get the bonus get it and I don't", then honestly thats just sad.

for all the people that say they don't want to use pve skills they just don't like how they have affected the game, why don't you stop QQing and come up with a better, faster, easer to run team build for the areas?

ps. is that pve skill attribute thing a joke?

Yet before ursan only 3 to 5 proffesions were used.
And why do you bother with people who use ursan to clear elite areas. When i go there i think about the area , teammates , not the fact that someone can clear FoW in 30 minutes while i do it in an hour and I'm not sad or angry.
I grinded norn to rank 7 and stopped. Now should I cry at arena net to remove the blessings?

what has PvE skill got to do with grinding? it infact eliminate the time you have to get something.

No. Because, if you actually had ANY idea of what's going on in PvE, you'd know that to get into a PuG you have to grind your ass to at least r8 ursan and r7 lightbringer. That isn't eliminating time. It's making everything stupidly long to grind.

so, what you want is for people who already "grind" like you say to the stages where they don't need to grind anymore to go back to grinding using un-powerful skill and do elite mission that last for 5 hours?

Oh, gee, ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

Now let's think... what has pve skill got to do with grinding... Quickly, rez Einstein, maybe he'll figure it out!

5 hours? Wow. Really? Yesterday with my guild (Normal Mode, of course, because DoA in hard mode is almost impossible using balance) we cleared DoA (without Mallyx) in 2:31, including brief after-wipe rezzings and few rests between areas. We used only 6 pve skills - Save Yourselves, There is Nothing to Fear, You Move Like a Dwarf, Whirling Attack, Seed of Life and Great Dwarf Weapon. Guess what, wasn't hard. After the hardest part of Gloom (the cave) it was pretty easy. Only one over-aggroing almost wiped us ;d.

Yeah, it's hard to call ,,un-powerful skill'' a ,,balanced skill'', right? And what's scarier, that skill works...

/signed

The PvE attribute idea is great.

all pve skills should be removed.
there should be no pve version of pvp skills.
skills can only be compared through maths and actual testing vs each other (=PVP)
the issue in pve was not balance between skills but effectiveness of these vs AI mobs.
altering the AI and mob composition is the "balance" that should concern pve players. (example:if AI detected and avoided traps then trapping would turn from good to bad without alterin the actual skills)

/signed, of course

But not going to happen.

We have to convince Anet with more creative ideas to nerf PvE skills, while keeping the unwashed masses happy.

Posting here at least shows that I care, and that my voice may be heard as opposed to saying absolutely nothing, and ArenaNet assuming "everything's fine because no one is complaining".

Hay guess wat guise. Your "solution" doesn't solve the problem at hand. "Don't like, don't use it" does not solve the problem. Joining a guild that does not use Ursan (even though this is about all three blessings because they all function similarly) does not solve the problem.

Further, no. This "PvE only attribute" is not a joke. It's a solution to the problem of title discrimination, which is really RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid because titles don't display any level of skill, only "experience"/time spent, and while it may be true that people improve over time, people also get worse over time, or don't improve at all because PvE doesn't allow people to become better players. Also, I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, but titles were introduced without any inherent benefits, and were meant as purely optional vanity to give players something to do. I find it hard to believe that players would not have worked on the sunspear, lightbringer, or EOTN reputation titles if PvE skills were not linked to them; after all, the titles still have inherent benefits.

Why don't YOU come up with a better solution to the problem of title discrimination? Additionally, class discrminaton at least holds more water than title discrimination could ever do; since not all classes are the same it is understandable why certain classes are preferred over others. This, however is a seperate issue, and if you want my opinion it is just as stupid, especially in PvE since "PvE is soooooooo easy".

Sadly, this is not "blatant bait and switch". If you'd like to get technical about it, Guild Wars Prophecies was advertised as a game in which skill > time and that is the truth. Most things in Prophecies do require more skill rather than time. You got what you paid for, and if you only had Propechies, your game expereience would mostly require skill > time. However, to the best of my knowledge, neither Factions, Nightfall, or GW:EN was advertised as such, and each brought elements into the game in which they required you to grind. Therefore, you still got what you paid for, 3 chapters of an MMO in which you had to grind.

That being said, it is really unnecessary for all of these CONSTANT complaints about how Guild Wars has become time > skill based. If there really is as much support for not using PvE skills and just using the regular skills, then maybe all of you "anti-PvE skills" players should form a list or group of some sort so you can all group together.

I've said this before on these forums and I'll say it again. PvE skills give character classes outside the realm of W/N/E/Mo to get in groups also. Without PvE skills, for the people who would rather play someting else, it is almost required that you spend THE SAME amount of time grinding one of these classes up to "usability" in order to get into a group too. However, due to PvE skills, I can bring my ranger into a group, or my guildie can bring his ritualist into a PvE group, because instead of grinding a new character out, we just grinded a new title.

/signed even though it will never happen, i would be very happy to see ursan deleted, that way the rly shitty players would give up

You mean the majority of this game's players?

Ah well, Anet have their money now so it's not of their concern mirite?

Although i don't use PvE skills, but i hate it when people try to make other people do things their ways which is why i don't use PvE skills in the first place, PvE skills users recruiting Rxx ursan and what not and players who try to make them unable to use RXS ursan are all the same!

lets see how can this thread be more productive?... oh I know lets talk about politics or better yet what "god" is the real one.... honestly is anyone really thinking about the people who diden't QQ all day, and did the grind for the titles already? or are they just pissed that people don't feel like playing the game like them.

there seem to be a few views on ursan, and for every view someone has a counter.

"if you don't like it don't us it", simple right? well that dosen't help the people that can't find a group when all that is being looked for is ursan... is it that hard to find a elite pve guild that has an anti-ursan policy?(with all the hate on ursan i doubt it)

"nerf it cuz ursan groups never let me join", ok so you'v accepted ursan? but are mad cuz people that have grinded to get to rank 10 won't accept you? and you rank 3, stop being a lazy person and just do the grind, its not that hard... (im sure for as much as people QQ over ursan, they'd have rank 10 if they where farming points.)

"nerf it cuz it unbalances pve and the skill system", really? ok ill say it its kinda sad that most pugs for elite pve missions have been reduced to basicly two builds, but honestly why do you think people run ursan? "cuz they are noobs who cant run anything els", that is just a sad lie, ursan is a easy to run build that works great for pugs. (yes mostly cuz it's easy, but who cares, so people that haven't done the elite area before can, without fear of failing. is that so bad? or would you rather see, "group lfm for fow clear only experienced people", ?)

I lol'd. If this is some sort of personal attack (because I love philosophy), then good luck. You seem to believe that not imposing someone else's beliefs is a bad thing, but on the contrary allowing anyone to believe anything can be a very dangerous thing. It seems that most people posting cannot accept criticism, do not like change, and want to believe whatever they want to. Moving on..

Is it that hard to see that this "solution" does not solve anything? This idea just avoids the problem completely.

This thread addresses the problems all three Norn blessings share, and that is the way they function in regards to the original premise of the game. It is a direct contradiction, and if the functional is "working as intended", then I don't know what a game bug is anymore. Furthermore, I never stated that grinding was a difficult task; it is only time consuming. I find this hilarious that I'm being accused of being "lazy" because I want to get the maximum efficiency from the PvE only skills without having to work on a shitty title that takes time, not skill to complete.

This issue is not about "PvE balance". The problem the Norn blessins have is the way they function. And yeah, I would rather see people advertising for shitty tank-n-spank builds because they take more skill to use than ursan in a game that advocated "skill>time".

This thread is about title discrimination and its effects on the community. Please, stay on topic.

The "If you don't like it don't use it" argument could be one of the worst ones possible. If that were the case there would be no need to balance ANY game of PvE. You don't think the people who created games like Final Fantasy...or Baldur's Gate just created all of the skills without balancing them, do you? And then would they just tell the players they didn't have to use the overpowered skills so they were fine? Of course not.

The only thing I'm disappointed in is how the entire philosophy of Guild Wars has changed. The Allegiance or Faction titles are nothing BUT grind and it honestly takes no skill to complete, only time. Advancing this title directly affects the strength of your PvE skills, and since only time was required to strengthen the skills, time=strength.

no, it was more just about the QQ over pve, titles discrimination threads.

you have a batter idea, that works for both partys? lets hear it cuz so far all you'v done is say "lets get rid of norn blessings and you know forget the people who already put tons of time into it", yes i know you have rank 10 norn I did read the thread, but really what dose that mean?

i never said that you said it was hard, just saying thats something someone has said. And did you just say it was funny to call you lazy becuase you don't feel like spending time to get a reward of pve skills? right....

yes... cuz we all know it was better in the good old days of 3 to 4 classes getting a pug for an elite mission then it is now.

No, no, that's exactly my point. When GW was first released that was the main selling point and or unique feature to the game, obviously as time goes on things change. Nor do I see EOTN tooting skill>time. EOTN was clearly made as a last expansion in the Guild Wars series, filled with grind and titles introduced for everything, such things were put in to keep people around longer until GW2.
For many I think are taking the whole skill over time thing way out of context anyways. The game still incorporates skill over time fairly well to a degree, eotn grind is the exception. Even then, I can't remember having to level certain titles in order to progress through the game, all that comes to mind is sunspear, and the other one you mentioned I think was an attempt to get PVE'ers into some form of PVP and or promote the whole you are part of a "faction".

You're probably going to be grinding titles out anyway if you're grinding Ursan out, so you still get some gain out of it.

Fair enough; those quest examples are not big problems, in my opinion. However, they are contradicting the original premise of the game, which is the point. Otherwise, it is the community that is imposing title requirements, which don't display a level of skill at all.

Class requirements are a bit more understandable. After all, not all classes share the same skills at the same efficiency. I however, would take any class into my PvE group; as I said before, the community discriminates against classes out of ignorance.

i hope no one is takeing any of this as a personal attack... (and i am the one that cannot accept criticism?) but really its just an internet forum, about a video game so no drama plz

after reading your comment about Class requirements I can somewhat agree with you. if the community took any class into any group (i understand you can't do that for all groups), then no, we woulden't need skills like the norn blessings that have made Class requirements something not seen in elite pve areas. but then the problem is... not everyone is so open to all classes.

Okay. So then I'm guessing your point was "Let's discuss essentially meaningless things that will never happen because this is Sardelac, which generally happens to be full of terrible ideas"? If so, I agree.

Unfortunately. After all, if PvE was super easy, then why would there be class discrimination in the first place?

Ignorance, I suppose.

PuG discrimination will always exist. If Ursan is removed, the next most powerful builds will take their place, with the downside that you'd have to play a specific role in a specific profession to get a spot.

It's really frustrating to get a group together for a HM mission, and fail.

Folks calling for Rank 8/7 don't want to fail, and know they probably won't with that team setup. I know I've failed tons of times in HM with Hero/Hench, and it's frustrating, and just makes me not want to attempt it anymore.

Why would you prefer to spend 2.5 hours on a mission with the risk of failure when you can use what is known to work and beat it in half the time with half the risk?

No matter what, you can't implement your plan without taking away something from a portion of the player base that they have invested a large amount of time getting. That means there is no way that it would ever be implemented.

Yeah, you would have to be good to play a role. ;d

Because even if you fail (which doesn't have to happen), you actually enjoy playing the build you made. Personally, I don't enjoy anything about Ursan. You just press 3 buttons repeatedly, regardless as to what your enemy is doing and what hexes/conditions are on you.... and you still succeed.

I actually enjoy a build that requires me to monitor my enemy, use the appropriate skill at the appropriate time, and work with a team that coordinates its efforts. PUGs don't do that often, but Ursan doesn't do it ever. Gotta love guild/alliance teams and hero/hench teams.

I think you're missing the point.

Let's look at the way Ursan (and the other Norn blessings) function.

[skill]Ursan Blessing[/skill]

Elite Skill. You take on the aspect of the bear. Your Energy returns to maximum and you have -2 Energy degeneration. You have +10...20 armor and +100...200 maximum Health. All Enchantments upon you are removed. Bear attacks replace your skills. You gain Energy every time you take or deal damage. This skill ends when your Energy drops to 0.

I've bolded the problems with this skill; furthermore it can be easily abused with a zealous weapon and a high energy offhand. If this "working as inteded", then I don't know what game bugs are. Additionally, Ursan gives you an additional four (five with Totem of Man) skills, along with the seven others on a skillbar.

I never said this will be implemented.

So you'd rather have stupid title discrimination in PvE over profession discrimination?

Title discrimination has no good arguments. Titles do not display any level of skill, only of the amount of time invested to max the title. At least profession discrimination has some solid ground.

Education is the only answer to profession discrimination; people are too ignorant to realize that all professions have a use in PvE. It is not my problem that people are ignorant, and title discrimination just enforces ignorance by not accepting anyone under a certain rank. Either way, discrimination will continue to exist because players are stupid.

Further, there is no need to grind titles to obtain skill benefits. In the past, you could play through the entire campaign without being forced to work on any title; this was at a time when titles truely were completely optional. While I don't believe that the few quests ArenaNet has in the game are a big deal, they still force people to attain a certain rank/amount of faction to advance through the game. Even if the intention of these quests was to "give people an incentive to explore other areas" or whatever, it still unintentionally discriminates against all players, and promotes "grinding".

I'm proposing to restore some integrity to the game by unlinking PvE-only skills from titles and completely removing Norn blessings because they are bad for the game. Furthermore, linking PvE only skills to a "PvE only attribute" would lessen the amount of "required" grind, and titles would be back on the "completely optional" list, where they should have been all along.

Clearly, the majority of players have become ignorant; this is bad.

I don't think that means nobody is capable of enjoying Ursan. I would enjoy to succeed rather than fail, and I have failed many times.

If you are happy with guild teams and hero/hench, then how does the popular use of Ursan diminish that happiness? You already have a team, so discrimination doesn't apply.

I'd rather Anet not waste their time with solutions that don't solve anything.

I'd imagine you're against discrimination because it prevents you from easily forming PuGs. If titles don't show any sign of skill, why do you want to be part of the PuGs that discriminate against you? If they do show skill, why would you expect to be welcomed into that PuG? If they worked for a long time on their grind, aren't they allowed to enjoy the benefits?

I really don't find anything grindy about finishing the main quest line. If you do, this might not be the game for you.

But...

I suppose some folks would rather grind on a message board than in the game.

The problem within PvE skills is the non balance for them. Mainly [ursan blessing].

I lol'd. Just because you're avoiding title discrimination does not mean that it does not exist or that it is not a problem. I can tell that you'd rather sacrifice any integrity to the game just to please the ignorant masses simply because it's a good business move. Guess what? It's a bad move in terms of game development. Also, my proposition does solve the issue of title discrimination by putting titles back on the "completely optional" mark, instead of the "semi-required" mark like some of them are now.



Wrong. I avoid the problem by playing with friends/henchmen, but that doesn't mean the problem is solved. It still exists.
lolwut? Last time I checked, there were more benefits to these titles than PvE only skills. Those benefits would stay.



I don't find a problem with doing those quests, but adding obstacles that shouldn't have to be there in the first place is stupid.


For your information, I'm playing the game and on this board at the same time. Also, I only have a little over 200 posts, so I'm not grinding a message board.

Compared to normal player skills UB is unbalanced ,compared to monster skills , enviromental effects , more hp and energy ursan is ok.
UB is not the problem , stupid pve balancing in general is. I enjoy ursan because there is no pressure like in a balanced team , the general atmosphere is more relaxed making my game experience more enjoyable.
Also , the skill>time is still here , it's in pvp , where it should be.

What this boils down to is a "QQ remove Ursan thread" however, you've worded it well. The thing that first got me interested was the skill>time aspect, and it was true for a while. You could rush through the story, skip half of it if you had the skill to run droks etc. but i'm sick of this griding. Titles were added for prestige, now they're required giving the casual gamer a disadvantage, despite that fact that if he/she had the time a title grinder had, they could erform the same job better.

The Time < Skill aspect is no longer true for Guild Wars.

Actually, what it boils down to is that guild wars is no longer about "skill>time", and linking pve-only skills to titles reinforces the idea that "time>skill". Further, title discrimination is now prevalent in PvE thanks to PvE-only skills being linked to title tracks. The Norn blessings are worth mentioning because they also contradict the "skill>time" aspect that was once prevalent in the past.

Except, of course, that the odds that you're playing a build (especially in a post-endgame area) you made (ie, thought up yourself) are very, very, very low in this day and age.

You forgot to mention that players have brains and having a brain is better than having 6457457 energy and hp.
Though I must admit that every time I read something as "ub is fine coz monsters have monster skills" or "dun liek it dun use it" I actually doubt that players have brains.

And it shouldn't be also in pve because...? Poor casuals and poor bad players would find elite hm missions too hard?

Yes, I would rather have title discrimination. Grinding out a character and spending the gold to gear it properly is more of a hassle than farming a title in my opinion.

While it's true that all classes have a use in PvE, its a simple fact that some do it better than others. For example, who needs mesmers to interupt or hex the enemy when you can bring elementalists and kill them. After all, dead enemies can't cast anything. Why bring an assassin who is a soft target and can spike every 20 seconds, when you can bring a warrior that dishes out far better DPS and has more survivability? It's just common sense to bring the better class and build to the group. In the days before PvE skills, it was the "Holy Trinity" of Warriors, Elementalists, and Monks that was the best at farming the elite areas. Now, it's Ursans and HB monks.

It's not that people are ignorant and "uneducated", it's just that people prefer to play the build that provides the best chance of success.

/signed

uhhhm....yeah... That's all I have to say about that.

So what are we going to do tonight, sph0nz?
-The same thing we do every night, bloo...
...Try to get Ursan NERFED!

/not signed

These skills are not PvP therefore cannot be used against you therefore do not have an impact on how you play the game.

From the number of threads on this matter I could say that since there are so many people against the use of PvE skills they would have no problem grouping with each other...

The point is no one is honest enough to name his thread "Nerf PvE skills because I don't want other players to have my titles".