An Open Letter to ANet - Part 2

I haven't read the letter yet just openning and I would say lets get rid of rank titles except those of pvp as well make thos pve only skills apply to an attribute of some kind.I would like to see more balance back in the game especially on the last 4 professions of Faction and Nightfall.I would stil say they are slightly out of balance compared to the rest of the core professions.

I would like to see more emphasis on the games Orignal intent in rewarding those that group free entry into the FoW and UW.This is another flaw by Anet having rank titles and fore going grouping up.I would of preferred skill quest like Prophecies instead of solo quests.Prophecies was yet the best by far campaign except with no UAS.

I see this game dying and my hopes with it and I don't know about GW2 at this moment.I would like to get my goals done in this game but it getting harder by every passing day.This is some what of a dissapointment on the way the game has been handled.To me GW 1 needs a big fix now some may not come back and play GW2 or continue to play.

So most people just care about getting the loot?

I've been speaking and adding these suggestions on behalf of people who just want to see and enjoy the content, not for farmers. Unfortunately, the latter is who all these changes cater to, part of why I'm very discouraged by all these changes. These skills/etc. help those who don't care about game balance, not the majority. It's ANet catering to a very annoying and vocal minority that only care about themselves and disregard maintaining the game.

The truth is that ignoring the problem's doesn't mean they don't exist. The DLDU argument is also faulty because it can excuse any flaw or overpowered skill you could ever imagine.

ANet already made changes on very subjective wishes. I've already mentioned above about who these updates are aimed at.

It's not any better than people being restricted by not owning a campaign and/or not having a high enough rank.

Right, but this is guru and this thread like every other has degenerated into a parry/thrust match between the same trolls that ruin every thread. ''I think" "in my opinion"....stfu. Agree/disagree and gtfo.

I thought of something that I think I might add to this thread. You know a lot of players think that HoM is a way to "buy" over the existing GW 1 players so that they move to GW 2. However, did you realize that ArenaNet doesn't have to give us HoM. They could have left GW 1 to die with time when GW 2 is launch, I am sure plenty of players would move to GW 2 and there wouldn't be this much complain and criticism if HoM weren't there.

What I am saying is think about your complain and criticism a little bit more before jumping to conclusion. I do not think ArenaNet need HoM to move its players from GW1 to GW2. HoM is an extra something for its fan, lastly ask yourself, can you as a game developer do as good a job as ArenaNet has? Can you?

If your answer is yes, then you should join them and give us a better game as you claim you can

cheerio.

/signed i agree with every bit i read

You've interpreted his post incorrectly. Tyla never said trinity-way was good for the game, but it's still the lesser of two evils when compared with Ursan Blessing, meaning any movement towards it is technically an improvement. Trinity-way at least allowed players to model their own skill bars and construct team synergies, while Ursan Blessing continues to remain the anti-thesis of this, by creating an overpowered skill bar which is almost void of any synergies with other professions or skills.
It's not like Ursan Blessing is any different from profession based discrimination either, only this time it's the low rank Ursan's who can't get into pugs - not because of their skill level - but because of something stupid like number next to their title.

odd. i have been getting the same feeling. this is due to the latest "changes" in the game. the latest nauseating "changes." what a joke.

it seems the attention not being paid to pvp is what is driving people towards another game (ahem, WOW, cough). just LOOK at heroes descent. sway this, sway that? sure, quickly nerf what is "overpowered balanced" and let crap builds run rampant for a year and a half. iway, sway. etc. and now i know why almost all players i played competitively with have discovered other mmos that do not screw with builds every week in favor of new players and t-spacers.

we clearly see what and who is priority here. not the veterans. not people that know any better. no. the new people get farther than veterans do, and by putting forth half the effort the veterans once did.

i have remained standing, after three years, playing almost every day, racking up a lot of hours---standing, remaining blind and loyal. doing my own thing.

ahh, for what?

why did i do this? what is this game doing for me? what did anyone playing do for me? and why did the things i did for anyone get taken for granted?

the best way to answer these would be: mindless, monotonous playing? farm and make money to get things in my hall? lol....:/

your post, avarre, is very thought out, very honest, and very genuine. and even though my post will probably be skimmed, overlooked, crapped on, flamed, deleted, or could have the potential to zonk out a whole lot of readers due to length, i read every single word you had to say because it counts to me, and i agree. i hope yours is read by the people that count in the arenanet world, along with all the rest of ours, that share the same thoughts. even though i don't think anyone will care enough to do anything about your post, at least you have backing

maybe guild wars 2 will be released with a mature rating......haha wishful thinking ^^

Here's another ultra-concise summary of Avarre's post for those that cba to read it all like I did:


<ANet, you created a little gem in the history of online gaming: a complex, fun, competitive game based on simple concepts.
You then piled a load of crap on it in an attempt to sell more boxes. That was really bad.>


As a side note, I'm glad he noted how monsters progressively went from "Hi, we fight with the same skills as you" to "Hi, we blow your face up with stuff you have no idea what it does" (which should only be reserved to end-area bosses).

wow.
/signed

Personally, I don't mind Monster Skills because they can bring a lot of interesting small things. Monster Skills used correctly are like the Ghoul's Nibble or Charr's Gloat. In fact, for my 10 second recollection, I can't think of a horrible Monster Skill. I can think of hard ones, lilke a few on Shiro, but he is a boss.

My problem is "Hi, now we blow your face up with the same skills you have only better, faster, harder, stronger, and easier than you can ever dream."

The Racoons???

Maybe I can jog your memory: Enraged, Banish Enchantment, Consume Torment, Demonic Miasma, Wurm Bile, Pyroclastic Shot, Enchantment Collapse, Juggernaut Toss, Ceiling Collapse, Carrier Defense, ...

Err... it will always be the farmers who care the most about the elite areas.
And yes, it is all about the loot.

Why else complete some elite area ?
The other reason would be to boost your ego. Witch is also part of the "loot" in some way.
Or fun... meh most elite areas are just too hard to actually "be fun". (my opinion)

I have to disagree, according to me anet didn't help the farmers but helped the "newer" people.

The farmers already did DOA before it with there cookiecuttersbuild
and infact were complaining that the prices of torment weapons would go WAAAY down.

I see the oposite, how DOA was before UB was PRO farmer.
Now it might be farmed more, but less by farmers.
Go ask around in DOA, most people are just trying to farm there torment weapons and will stop right after.
They aren't "real" farmers, but people who want to have the "hot" gear and show of with it.
For most, they would never even see a torment weapon if not for UB.

Sadly, that is not true.

topk --> splinter weapon + flesh golem. Both faction skills.
deep --> paragon ok... not needed, but without one it becomes way harder. Ele with nf skills. Monk with SS skill (although I don't think there was titlediscrimination about that one). My member is foggy but I believe arcane mimicry is also a nf skill.
DOA pre-UB --> I believe the ele had some proph skils.

Aside from that people were always "title" discriminating. Only in a different way.

I think we all remember people shouting "group looking for PRO's only".
They "checked" if you were a pro by looking at your skillbar.
And you had to be max lvl. (duh)

Now they are "checking" it by looking at your skillbar + your title.

Aside from that, it is still profesion discrimination.
the profesion is called [UB].
Achieving max lvl = maxing the title linked to it.


All by all. UB is a cookiecutterbuild in some way.
But... it is better then most cookiecutterbuilds.
- it is more destructive
-it lets more people play.

Yep I know. People who just have NF get owned big time.
But without PVE skills, they assumably still would be.
As most cookiecuttersbuild ONLY allow people who have the SKILLS (including skills from other campaigns) + are the correct profesion.

Now it is just the people who have the SKILL (from eotn).
Doesn't mean problem solved. I agree. But there is no other way for anet to solve it.

They could completely overhaul all elite areas
but people would just switch to another cookiecutterbuild

They could add random stuff
but people would just switch to another cookiecuterbuild and yell "NOOOOOOOB" even more.
(this is again my opinion,like everything I write. As far as I know, it could turn out the way Zwei2stein said. I would love it that way, but I'm to pessimistic to think it will turn out like that.)

They could make it more eassy..
and we would have an even bigger flamefest then UB now is (+ make it hero-able).
Heck, SWG Combat Update all over again.
(some people would say UB= CU or even worse NGE.
But I disagree.
At the moment you still have the ability to do it the PRE-UB way.
Harder and not equally rewarding. Sure.
But how many people would have continued playing SWG if they would have had that option?)

Personally, unless anet can remove the prof discrimination, I prefer UB.
I don't want to stand in DOA again for weeks and whipe on the first mob when I do find a group.
Bryant, zwei2stein, Avarre (if you're still reading), in general anyone who finds UB to be wrong and that the need doesn't justify the tools =UB (err it sounds better in Dutch, trust me).

Elite areas.
They do/should require RL people to be completed. I assume we all agree with that.

Most people don't have a big enough guild or allaince/ enough friends to complete the area.

(plz, don't start the "join a beter guild" argument. You could also join a beter guild if the one your in now plays UB. And if you care so much about UB destroying PVE and elite areas, WHY did you never make so much a problem of cookiecutterbuilds ? It discriminate people too and requires near no skill)

So the "newer" people HAVE to go PUG.

Now there is UB. In the old days there was cookiecutterbuilds.

What you want in place of UB (please not cookiecuttersbuilds)?

My dear guildie; ALWAYS the raccoons. That is why I'm here =-p
My wazzness is required, once more.

If they wanted to help the "newer" people they wouldn't create a skill that discourages thoughtful build custimization. If they wanted to help the inexperienced they would've made normal mode more accessible so that they can better expect what to prepare for should they wish to see it in Hard mode.

And if this was supposed to help new people who "didn't have enough time" they wouldn't have linked a title to it. That essentially voids all matter of it pertaining to "helping out the newbie". The fact that people are now shooting for only very high ranks just proves the point: This isn't helping out newer players.

If you want to help out inexperienced players, you teach them through steps how to play the game. UB doesn't do that, it entirely disregards all of your previous game knowledge or lack thereof.

You're never, ever going to kill discrimination in an online game. There were and still are those who prefer X profession over Y, or see Z profession useless - even with UB.

It's very interesting how you keep claiming how "cookie cutter builds" are an evil when UB is *just that*: It's a build cookie cut straight from ANet. It provided a cookiecut build to "rule them all". UB would've killed cookiecutted'ness if it encouraged people to think of new and different builds, but that is entirely the opposite of what UB promotes. The only difference is that it's not profession exclusive.

While it eliminates (to an extent) profession and "cookie cutter build" discrimination it causes numerous ones on whole fronts, as already listed out. It solves no problems. The title takes a large chunk of time to max, and if you do max it out than you are not a "new, inexperienced" player.

I can't look on UB with a good light since it sacrifices too many core game concepts to be considered a "good idea" and solves very little in the process. The same goes for PvE skills.

It's a nice letter, albeit a tad dramatic, but hey, I have that tendency as well sometimes ^^.

Personally I've never been that concerned abour Ursan in particular ruining the game, as I still feel the game is very enjoyable, but I do understand what Avarre is saying here, and better decisions in the past could certainly have made GW better than it is now. I do feel it was more fun back before NF came out. With heroes NF added some nifty new "tools", which many needed because of dwindling PvE players (or because of being fed up with bad PUGs), but with EotN things seem to have gotten worse. There's too much elitism going on (ingame and on forums too as a result). It used to be more equal.

So, even though I might not think it's all that bad, I understand the letter, and will /sign in hopes GW2 will be better.
(PS: even though I feel titles are fun, I dislike grind, especially for PvE skills that make the game easier, yes... such as ursan... Protector and Guardian, cartographer and skill hunter, Legendary vanquisher and champion of (UW, FoW, SF, ...), those are the fun titles.)

Amen to that.

This last part = Not signed because of this single statement: "so weak/unwanted classes can do areas/etc where they are not typically welcome." That's class discrimination, and I HATE that. That's a big reason why people are using Ursan in the first place. Every class should be able to do every little bit of the game, without overbalanced grind PvE skills. And don't change monster's skills in the same areas.

Jumping in here having only read first page, so please ignore me if I'm retreading old ground or if the discussion has moved on.

Have to say sadly I agree with a lot of the points the original poster was making. A lot of the depth in this game has been lost. Add to this recent changes like this split between PVP and PVE versions of skills that only serve (IMO) to further the gap between PVP and PVE, adding unnecessary barriers between the two, and seemingly contradicting the fundamental design the game is built on.

To be fair to ANet, I think these changes have been made out of a genuine attempt to satisfy all of their community. Only problem is you can't do that, the community will never agree on anything. Trying to please every camp will only create contradictions in the game. At the end of the day, ANet need to put their foot down and say this is the game we are making and this is who we are catering to. At the moment I have no idea who that group is.

Hopefully with GW2 they will have a clearer vision of what they want to achieve, as at the moment GW1 seems to be all over the map.

Eh, lets be realistic here, do you really believe that if GW2 is a fantastic product or even a damn good one these people will on principle not buy it? Nah, sorry, not gonna happen.

I've played GW for nigh on 3 years now, and no, I havent played it all the time, I do exactly what Anet suggests, I vary my gaming experience. I've been playing Mass Effect recently and over the last 3 years I've played many, many other games then GW.

The best part is, it doesnt cost me anything to leave GW on the proverbial shelf for a while, I come back and play a few hundred hours until I'm done for a while. Sure, there's room for improvement, always was and always will be but thats fine, I never expected (or expect for the future) a perfect game, the point is that GW is excellent value for money imho and it always has been and at the end of the day, thats what its about.

The same complaints always come from the same people, its a relatively small vociferous group and like Bryant earlier said, the average player doesnt care what that group thinks, it votes with their money and given GW's sales they vote against topics like this.

If true, then how did GW become so successful before? It had no need to reach down to the small minority of whiny give-me-now's, at the time it had sold 3 million copies and would've reached 4 million a month later.

It's not that the average group "doesn't care what we think", it's that the average group just doesn't care. They didn't care before, they don't care now. They were enjoying the game just fine then and still are. The only people benefiting from all this dumbing down are people who don't care about the core of the game and just want everything at their fingertips, game be damned.

Edit: Post 666. Epic win.

But you're not really playing your profession.
Are you satisfied with that fake sense of acceptance? I wouldn't.
Quoted for f'in emphasis, please read, this guy makes sense. And again I assert that the type of progression Prophecies pushed you through was much better (even with the stone walls known as Elona's Reach and THK).
A-men from me too, expecially the parts in bold. The change in skill acquisition contributed to removing part of the achievement after completing a quest (only crappy items now) and removed the sense of progression by confusing the player by forcing them to choose from a ton of skills.

I have carefully read both the OP's post and the previous post he asked us to read, too.

I must say that I disagree with most of what has been said. While some things are a bit worse, the overwhelming majority of the changes Arena net have implemented have been for the better. The game is getting better and better, not worse.

The game is not shallow. We have simply played the game far too much. That is all. Once you've played a mission for the tenth time, of course it isn't going to feel hard and we lose the feeling for the difficulty. Instead, ask yourself, how many new guildmates have I had to help do this thing?

Look at your /age commands. I doubt people complaining in this thread will find low numbers. That is the only thing that's deeply wrong with this game. It's so good we played it far far more than we should have played it. And that only shows that Anet did too GOOD a job.

Oh, and one other thing: try to remember that Anet has access to actual statistics. Better ones than the forum users.

Agreed if PvE skills didn't exist.

We are not becoming "more skilled". The game is becoming easier.

This really makes me hope that Anet puts up a big warning on the character creation screen for GW2. Make it read something like,

"WARNING! If you ever need a party outside of your guild/friends list, do not make a character using this profession! Especially if you plan on making a main character using this profession!"

Because let's face it, No one likes being one of those 5 professions that's stuck in the outpost while the other 5 are in there, actually experiencing the game.

I understand the problem you're trying to illustrate. But the method ANet took to "solve it" was in the wrong direction.

Yes, I agree! I also think that this is why Anet is still deciding what to do as well as why this topic is still being debated within the community. It's a case of two evils in which people weigh each side of the debate differently.

If Anet took the steps in the beginning to code better AI while still keeping their used resources within limits, I do not think Ursan Blessing would have existed. Of course... this was not meant to be a PvE based game but as time changes, so can a playerbase. I think this is also partially why Anet is creating GW2, to be better suited to handle the change in their playerbase. On that note, let's hope we don't have to deal with this discrimination (of any sorts) in GW2.

I miss wiping to mobs of 3 enemies in HM a year after getting the game :<

No one is stopping any players from getting this armor but the players themselves. They do not need some imba/overpowered/broken shit or a gold buying site to help get them their armor.

They do need time to get it though. Many people don't have the time it takes to constantly farm ectoplasm. Now let me raise a question, what is the point in farming by yourself to get materials for your Obsidian when you can do it in a team of 8, have fun with it, and get more out of it?

I think arena net did it just to have a laugh at gold sellers.

And you couldn't do this before PvE skills?

Theres nothing that says how you get your materials for the armor, wether it be solo farm or in a party. What I and others are saying is that the game was "toned" down to appease the "Someone else has this so now I want it but want to put in 1/3 of the effort they did" crowd which has taken over this game. If you want the more expensive armor, than put in the work to get it.

And the game should be about working together to get that armor, not about one monk from china who runs a bot or someone who just runs cof all day.

Because you don't need the aid of a severely imbalanced skill(s) to complete FoW or UW.

You can easily clear it with a 1Human/6Hero team, and if you can do that, even easier with mostly humans depending on if you PuG or you are playing with a guild group.

And farming can be done with groups or limitations on party members.

...

I'll ask again. You couldn't do this before PvE skills?

stop buying from them and they won't have bots to run their site
You could. Many players did. Its just the new "Lazy, I want it now" crowd that has infected the game that doesn't feel they need too and think that the dumbing down of the game is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

That's all true. The problem is people who do that totally feel like they're wasting their time because why do it with a group when it can be done by one person?

Tell that to the other thousands of players that do.

Then if that's so just solo farm it. If you're happier in a team, do it as a team.

It's never ending loop that goes back to my original point. This is kind of why there's these overpowered pve only skills. A lot of people hate that one person using a build can get all he or she desires and they can't. You might be happier in a team because your with your buddies, but you might not be happier because you know you could have a bigger cut of cake so to speak.

Since when did Elite areas and Elite armor become necessities for the casual player?

Since the dawn of time when people wanted to look better or feel more important than one another. That's when.

Notice the word "Wanted", not "Needed".

so because cape trims are in the game and only a select few guilds wil lever have them automatically means that everyone who creates a new guild should have a cape trim?

So because rare end weapons such as tormented are i nthe game, you should get one automatically for finishing nf?

Since some people can have unconditional damage weapons that they held on too, does this mean that anet should start dropping these in game?