A Reply to those who Desire PvE Challenge (skill > time)

Please read this whole post before replying, as I've already listed a dozen or so arguments from all angles of this highly debated topic.

Required reading:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10297855
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10297599
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10298586

Full Disclosure
I think Anet's decision to limit PvE skill nerfs is valid. With no new content, Anet has decided to open up harder content to less hardcore players with the help of more potent skills and other questing assistance. More people obtaining more achievements for the Hall of Monuments increases the chance of more people buying GW2, which is good for Anet and the Guild Wars franchise.

Plenty of folks were upset because of PvP nerfs to PvE skills, and now the PvP/PvE skill split has arrived. Ursan exists, and it upsets a bunch of folks for a bunch of reasons. I don't think Anet is going to heavily nerf or remove Ursan, SF, or any other future buff to PvE, but I believe there is some interest to give the challenge to the people who want it. This would also allow Anet to continue to buff PvE skills, giving lower end players access to more content, while raising the bar of "skillful PvE play".**

Individuals who want a challenge could still see it by simply equipping less skills or no PvE-skills, but this challenge is artifical. I know folks don't want to give themselves an artificial handicap to find a challenge, so we should reward these fine individuals with the challenge they deserve and the ability to show it off. This suggestion would give the credit to those who want the bigger challenge.

This title, the "Challenger Title", is comprised of points that you earn in "Challenger Mode". You can only access Challenge Mode by having all members of your party level 20 and defeated the last mission of any of the three campaigns. This Challenger Mode causes the following effects and benefits in Missions and Dungeons:

Challenge Elements:
-Hard Mode monsters and effects, all monsters use PvE skills
-All Players use PvP versions of skills, when applicable
-No PvE-only skills permitted
-No Title bonus effects (Lightbringer, Asuran... etc)
-No consumables permitted (this included con sets, candy canes, scrolls... etc)
-No Henchmen, and no heroes
-No Locked Chest spawns in the Gate of Desolation mission
-Instant mission failure if your party has an average Death Penalty of -30% or more

Reward Elements:
-Exp boost of +75%
-Triple Gold item drops
-Triple Rare Material drops
-Triple dungeon end chest drops
-All Locked Chests drop Gold items
-Double mission completion rewards

Also, a Level 25 monster known as the Keeper of Challenges, a Purple Djinn, will spawn intermittently and randomly (about every 5 minutes, give or take a minute, on top of a random party member) through each mission. Also, two will pop up near random party members when one party member opens a Locked Chest for the first time. It has the following skills:

Consuming Flames
Expunge Enchantments
Dark Prison
Shock
Aftershock
Shockwave
Sliver Armor
Aura of Restoration

Title Track

You will gain one point towards the Challenger Title when you complete a mission or dungeon in Guild Wars in Challenger Mode for the first time. Three points are awarded for Elite areas. This includes:

Prophecies Missions (25)
Factions Missions (13)
Nightfall Missions (20)
All GWEN Dungeons (18)
UW, FoW, Urgoz, The Deep, and DoA (worth 3 points each = 15)

The title track is as follows:

10 points - Novice Challenger
20 points - Moderate Challenger
40 points - Serious Challenger
60 points - Master Challenger
81 points - Grandmaster Challenger

What are some possible downsides of this plan?

• It takes effort to implement, which it does. I only care for this idea so far as to quiet the questions and complaints regarding making PvE easier through buffs, and grindier through PvE title skills. I would actually prefer Anet focus on GW2, but I would definitely prefer this addition to the game than any other suggest changes that wouldn't actually change anything. Nerfing a PuG build will only cause PuGs to change builds to the next strongest thing.
• Folks who are rank 6 KoaBD may resent this title as they most likely grinded FFF for about 500 hours to get there. There are a very small number of people who have achieved this. I'd like to think most of them have the insight as to why the buffs are good for Anet and GW2, and would appriciate the extra challenge content.
• Some people would claim there is no such thing as "skillful PvE play". They could be right, as PvE mobs don't change bars, and can't adapt tactics. Your team build and strategy can easily be switched up to beat an area efficiently. This is one of the reasons why nerfing the most powerful PvE skills won't have much effect, because the next stronger builds will simply take their place. I'd say to simply let those who desire the challenge, have it. We could add more stipulations, like "no elite skills" and "-25% damage and healing", but when would it end? It's just as fun being hit for 600 damage party-wide as it is killing the Great Destroyer in 20 seconds with Pain Inverter. Players would rather kill a dragon in a crypt than kill rats in a farmer's basement, even though they are mechanically similar. Players like to feel epic, and they like to brag.
• It would cause a great deal of frustration to those who simply can't beat this challenge, and I'd imagine there are more than a few out there. It's hard for a lot of people to accept that they just aren't capable of some things.
• Some folks will never be happy, regardless of what Anet does, and will always think of the game as better in the "good old days". You can tell they are the biggest fans because they hate the game the most. I guess it sucks to be them.

I think that just about sums it all up. What do you think?

Haha, I actually like the rewards a lot. =]

But I'm pretty sure there is no way this is happening.

And the title should be called, "I love my guildies, who have nothing better to do, so they play the game the old way with me and get gold(z)".

I would prefer that A-net completly forgot about GW1 and gave me a really nice GW2 in a year (well less beta is 4th quarter this year right?) Than this, cause honestly, no one will do this, if they do the number will be vary small.

Very nice suggestions, and it looks like you made some pretty thorough research before posting; however like above poster said, I would prefer Anet focus on GW2 now instead, as in this stage of the game, this is probably too little, too late.

I really like this actually. PvE has never been a challenge, and this might actually bring some, especially finding groups (the "no H/H" part).

The only thing I don't like is "Locked Chests Always Drop Golds." Because it would just make outposts "LF CHEST RUN - CHALLENGER MODE". Unless some update gets put in where the general location has to be cleared of enemies to use chests or something, this will get abused.

Other than the 1 stipulation, this is a wholehearted /sign.

Challenger mode would be hawt.

I dig it.

/signed

I think A.Net wouldn't even know HOW to implement those things.

Why not make "Instant failure if one of your party members dies"? Come on 30% on hard mode without consets or clovers would be not that hard to get.

But overall /signed for the rest. Btw, 3 points per mission completion? Wouldn't people start farming Doppelganger and that's all? ;p

They prolly wouldn't be able to get points from the same area more than once.

/signed sounds like what HM should have been.

Why should the herohench be banned from this? Are they really so imba? Considering that I have already done pretty much everything on the PvE side with H+H and without PvE skills or consumables the only challenge I see in this would be to find enough real players to do it ...

Also, go go chest running in Challenger mode

Good idea...but this is just more grind..and grind is what has killed GW so
not signed

I would like 60% DP or at least 45%.

/signed

Nice idea, but I just don't see it happening. Still /signed.

It suffers the same problem as HM does.
The only reason why you'd want to do it is for the better drops and (a) title(s).
So - as long as we have bonuses like that - everyone will think that they should be able to do it. Which will lead to it being dumbed down.
The only way that a new, harder mode gets my support would be by increasing the difficulty WITHOUT getting any bonuses as rewards. The simple option of having a harder mode to play in should be reward enough.

So a /notsigned from me.

Sounds good, apart from no H/H. (/Sign)

Getting rid of H/H makes the choices you can make quite slim, and they aren't really that good are they?

Putting a limitation on them will also bring up a problem for some players - You don't have everyone in a guild, and sometimes areas will still be empty, even with this mode on.

And Upier, the only way this is farmable is with the notoriously slow "TanknSpank" (That is, unless I misread something). People asking for it to be dumbed down should stop complaining about that for the most part and accept that there are some things they can't conquer.

I would prefer ANET focus all of their attention on GW2. Some of the ideas would be nice, but simply, I remember a long time ago joining 5 man groups and making my own "hard mode." And after a while, 5 man groups were no longer the thing and it was 4 man groups (which I never did). Like it said in the OP though, the enemies will have tendencies, people will study the enemies, find out what they are and exploit them. The same way the three necro build exploits tendencies in hard mode.

Like HM?
Come on, it's GW.

You add a bonus and everyone will feel that they are entitled to do it because of the way GW works currently - titles, titles, titles!
People who want to be challenged should take that as a reward - because the other option is finding a new game!
It's a niche concept - people play it because it offers them a challenge rather then acting like the majority of players who will venture into a harder area for the bonuses.
BUT if the people who want to be challenged actually want the bonuses, rather then what they are talking about (the increased difficulty!) - then there is absolutely no point in implementing it.
Just Ursan HM.

People should be rewarded for taking on a higher level of challenge. Better AI would simply make TanknSpank a redundant farm, and people would have to find a new way to abuse.

Yes, people want the bonuses, but if there is a challenge to surpass and they manage to do it, they deserve to get the bonus.

this might actually make me go back to PvE o_0

Shouldn't the warm fuzzy feeling that one did better themselves at playing the game be enough of a reward?
Especially since it WOULD keep the unwanted crowd out? Which is kinda the point of this mode - a sandbox for the people that don't want to have crappy ass sand houses be built next to their sand castles.

Edit:
Ohh this just hit me!
Or the concept of rewards could be modified.
The rewards would be transferable. That way the people that just want the rewards could obtain them without playing the mode. While the people who would desire a challenging game would obtain that AND the reward!
That would still mean that drops shouldn't be better though.
Give a random mini instead of a title as a reward or something.

not signed..

you want a harder challenging mode, then just use not the consums, then play only with idiots of your guild, because thats exactly the same, as to remove Heroes and Henchs or PUG'ging. and don't use PvE Only Skills + not perfect Equips, just use Beginner Armor, avoid running to Rez Shrines to activate them and don't use Titles which give Bonus Effects, then you have your Hell Mode, JUST FOR YOURSELF and the idiots, which do the same like you then. After that do all that on Hard Mode and watch, how fast you retards will get 60% Malus and your so hard wished instant mission failure.


This Thread sucks, the idea sucks and fails and you fail with this Thread, sucks to be you, to talk "in your language"

When I read such arrogant bullshit, I could innerly explode >.<

Edited by Celestial Beaver: Please keep your language level more civil.

yes the game was better in good old days when you could maintain 30+ minions with your imba MM :P
imma trollin

I like this idea a lot. Especially because of the no pve-skills. Even tho I'm already vanquishing like this atm. Would be nice to have a special mode for it aswel.

so, /signed.

can you please stop disregarding or destroying such a basic game design mechanic as difficulty? honestly. even my 10 year old sister gets difficulty, why it is there, and how it works, yet you just slouch there and disregard it like no ones business. Stuff is meant to be harder than other harder, some stuff is meant to require more skill than other stuff, and some stuff is meant to give a better reward for its difficulty. Whether you like it or not 99% (read: most of) the world is materialistic. Why do you think titles work? Because people like rewards. There is very few people who are "all about the journey", because if the people getting titles didn't think it was fun (ie: enjoying the journey) they wouldn't do it anyways.

Better idea: just limit usage of consumables and PvE skills to NM areas. You know, make this thing called Hard Mode slightly Hard or something.

So you wish to create yet another mode of gameplay that is open to only those with 7 live people that are availible to play right when your ready to play and have all the time you have to spend on that particular mission/dungeon/elite zone/ect...and want to do the exact same thing as you....

/not signed...this just sounds like another attempt at creating a better farming mode.

/signed
i'd love to see the "elite" back in "elite area"
with those PvE skills i really don't notice any challenge anymore at all
HM turns practically in NM

I like everything about that.

Except no heroes. That's a big no-no for me.

/notsigned.

As a lesser important thing that I believe you missed, to prevent farming in this mode, is to require parties in Challenge Mode to be full.

Everyone? No, it'd just be the same, tiny group of people that want everything hand-fed to them. The majority isn't even going to notice this.

Hey, it's not like you have to do it. lulz!

/signed, even though I would like to use some heroes and henchies and I don't agree too well with the loot and money drops.

@Shayne: Fully agreed about requiring parties to be full.

yea that is quite a nono
if you don't have enough people for the group you're screwed

Eh so basically HM h/h with no cons and less allowable dp? Anet has better things to do.

please read it all
it says no heroes or henches

hey looks, someone wants the whole game to be like DoA on release, holy trinity only. This would hurt the game more than anything else, because most classes will just be ignored (sins, rits, mesmer, paragon, derv). Also think of the 4 man missions, or worse the 3 man one, where would these classes fit in.

Btw, I finished vanquisher and guardian b4 sunspear pve skills were added. This wasn't much of a challege to be honest, and this exactly what this idea is suggesting.
/unsign for idea that bring back holy trinity

As someone else said... guild-only HM-grind for title and leet drops. Noty.

/notsigned

Good, I feel the same about your threads.

i do care a shit about what you feel .

Would you have read everythign I posted there, then you'd understand, why I've written that ...

3 times gold drops
3 times rare material drops
All chests net gold items

YUP, sounds like a farming thread to me.

@ Pheonix Tears - Man, did someone piss in your Corn Flakes or what? Reguardless you just made one of the worst posts ever.

Honestly a simple PvE overhaul would be fine. Mix up mobs and skills in each area/mission. I mean how long have certain areas and missions been EXACTLY the same for? Mix them up, add different mobs and different skills, just mix it up some so it's not the "same old same old" every where.

And here was I thinking that the people who want to be challenged are the ones that put more emphasis on the journey.
Since why would it make sense to gimp ourselves with no consumables, heroes, PvE skills, title-benefits, .... - if the point was to get to the goal as easy as possible?

Well, I can't talk about the size of the groups - but we can say that the groups is being listened to. How else do you explain all the crutches we are getting otherwise?
So if you remove the desire of this group to take part in this mode - there is no need to make the mode accessible for these guys.
And that just leaves us the question - will the people who this mode would be designed for do it for the rewards or the added challenge?
And considering the title of the thread - I'd say that being challenged is the priority here.

Wow, you, of all the people... Now all we need is Tender Wolf to support it.

I read it all. You'd only be substituting h/h with real players which in no way makes it any more difficult except of course actually finding a group.

A bunch of great ideas there!

A challenging PvE with only properely balanced skills, no cons, no heroes, etc. receives a big /SIGNED from me.

In fact this is how Hard Mode should have looked like...

Keeper of Challenges should stop all the potential farming abuse, nice idea there.

But for making a 3rd difficulty level the rewards aren't worth it imho. It's just 1 title... although a Grandmaster Challenger would be more meaningfull than a GWaMM.
And triple gold drop rates are triple compared to HM or NM? if HM then it would be just sick, insane amounts of worthless golds feeding the merch.

And there's still some potential for abuse, for example Chest Running in Challenge mode just for the 100% golds.