Consets...

So i don't know if this has happened to any of you but i start a group for the UW HM speed run and get everyone i need full 8/8 party took me nearly a half hour to make. Then I ask for who has consets and the party starts arguing... then one ele rage quits, causing a war to rage quite then everyone else... Now my question that i kinda brought up in my other thread ( which got moved to the warrior farming section, having absolutely nothing to deal with my questions) is who should have responsibility of having the consumable sets? I feel that the costs should be divided upon the 3 terra tanks and 1 perma sin. They obviously make the most money and they do about the same work as the ursan group... Ive seen people in there make up to 7 ectos at least one person a full run.. this doesn't happen all the time, but it at least happens 1/5 of the time maybe more. Now im only asking them to pay 3.5k each, which could easily be made back by one ecto drop, pretty much guaranteed in one run, besides the chest one. it really makes me angry when an ursan is the one to step up and buy the conset. Because 1 he might entirely lose all his money if the group fails, which happens a lot, or 2 he might end up just breaking even, which entirely destroys the point of farming.

Now another point i said above was failing. Yes it happens quite often when an inexperienced person overaggroes or the entire ursan group dies or even that people run out of rezzes (which i think all terras should have a rez scroll anyways). But even so, that 1/3 run that you do, usually pays itself back with a lot of profit.

My question is this, does anyone else who run these groups think that it should be terras and the perma sin to pay for the consumable set? If not please tell me why they should be excluded... I am absolutely tired of having the entire team pay for a set and having the terras leave making 50k of profit while i just barely made 1 ecto in money with some crappy golds and a few rare materials. Im really annoyed when my entire team breaks a part because of stupid things like this...

EDIT: Actually adding on to my idea, sometimes, even if the ursans all die and fails, the consets still run and the terras solo farm the rest of the way anyways.... I don't think the entire party should divide the costs either since 1 the leader usually had to work hard to get a team, IMHO the hardest part of the entire run because of all the rejected people calling him names and mass spaming him and the rage quitters who destroy the team.

Breakfast McRit, i don't think its fair if you end up losing or barely making any profit (its a "farm" after all), there may be one or two scenarios where an ursan luckily gets a eternal blade... but thats one and a hundred

I think it doesn't matter who makes the most money, if you are going to play with a PUG then the entire party should divide the cost. It's an entirely different playing field when you can get friends together and split the costs the way you mutually deem fair.

I never have consets tbh but I don't mind chipping in on a team conset, if everyone pays 1K each to the person who has them then thats fair, he gets 7K which is what they sell for.

Easy way, buy a conset on the spot, and make everyone in the team split it.

leader should have them
hate how pugs say "looking for 1 <whatever> with cons"

also i tend to argue the ursans should have them, until recently the argument was that a terra doesnt need cons, the ursans do. but with e/a terras everyone kinda relies on cons these days.

monks are never exempt, but definately the leader should use the first set

Here is a thought. Don't use the consets.

ever tried that in a Hard Mode pug?

I personally think that it is more the terras who NEED the cons. Terras can't solo without consets, but ursans can probably manage with some difficulty. Also, you need 2 consets so people have to buy two. Now looking at what usually happens a typical ursan (including monk) get 1-2 ectos total (including chest). now generally they usually only get one ecto (which is from the chest), a diamond, a scroll, and a bunch of golds... thats roughly 3.5k+1.5k+1k-2k= 4k a run at minimumplus a few crappy golds, maybe if lucky they MIGHT get a good perfect mod, which is not bad, but in perspective for terras/ perma sin they make 3-6 or 7 ecto a run and make 3.5k x 3 + 1.5k + 1k + 5k (they make at least 7 gold drops thus the 7 for 5k unded) - 2k = 16k. Thats four times the minimum of a regular ursan. Ursans do the same amount of work, ursans maybe even more, and ursan r 10 is VERY hard to reach.

Now I am both a terra and a monk so i speak for both sides of a party. I carry cons on my terra (although i am still learning how to farm well) and a monk. From looking at both sides i can see the unfairness, which i feel should at least be acknowledged.

Also Rick, I usually make my own groups and it is quite difficult dealing with all the people i rejected calling me noob for not accepting them into my group. it is also quite lengthy and sometimes unsuccessful. I have actually lost 7k just trying to compromise with rage quitters and consets...I feels that the leader should be respected and treated well for starting the group and working hard to make a working group....

I run as an Ele/W Ursan in these groups. It's always that groups are posting LF more Ursans with consets. When the leader asks who has consets, no one speaks up. I always have consets and, as a rule, I think it is rude to join a group without bringing one. I mean everyone. Then it is a matter of who uses their consets. I used to always use my conset until I realized some people never bring them. Also, there is a little posturing to see who is going to use their's first, second, etc. I never minded using mine first except that many groups aren't that good, or people rage quit over the dumbest reasons. Because of this, I will only offer to use my conset every 3 or 4 times I go with a group. I always offer to pay a portion of the conset. I'm sad to say that I am in the minority. Most people just want a free ride and have no sense of responsibility to the group as a whole.

I think the only fair thing is for some people to offer their consets and the rest pay 1K for each conset used. It doesn't matter who gets what drops or who needs the consets because each member of the group needs the other members to complete the tasks.

I've been saying this for a while, that in the first year and a half, GW was played by really nice people who worked together and loved the game for what it was. In the last year and a half, the game is being populated by smarmy, whining, rude, children, who could care less about anybody but themselves. The addition of Ursan and consets has exacerbated the problem. It's funny how, A-net saw fit to nerf really intelligent skill sets like the 55-Monk, but, allows Ursans and consets, which brings out the worst behavior in players. To make things really fair, I would like to see Ursans and consets removed from the game.

I'm with Abe. I've completed UW, FOW and even DOA without them. They aren't needed. Unfortunately you can't find a pug nowadays that's good enough to go without them.

I go as an Ursan and yes I would prefer that the Terra's buy the cons since they get all the ectos on the run, however if the group agrees to split the cost among all party members then I'll go with that.

However, I'm rarely seeing anyone willing to share the cost. I tried to do 3 UW runs a few weeks ago and each time the group insisted that everyone bring cons and we use them one at a time. In this scenario the first person to use is bearing the full cost if the group wipes (and each time it wiped).

The first team wiped when an Ursan screwed up on the 4 horseman and brought down mass aggro on the reaper. The 2nd team wiped when a player teleported the team thus returning the soloing Terra to us. The terra threw a hissy fit and left. 3rd team wiped when the soloing terra died. We were heading over to rez him when the monks threw a hissy fit and left.

With so many teams failing within the first 30 minutes, the first con user is the big loser.

I defy you to tell me that you can tell who is a good player and who isn't, or, who is going to rage quit or be a jerk, when you are rejecting or accepting people. I have a hard time getting into groups sometimes, when I probably am a better player than 95% of the players in the group and have as many XP as all of them put together. In picking a group, you have no idea how good the players are unless you know them personally.

On the other hand, I hate making groups because of the hassle, so, I can't really complain if I am rejected for whatever reason.

I think i would have to agree that the leader should definetely have a conset handy. I run UW on both my monk terra and war, averagely you get the same drops as the rest. Doesnt matter who you are, every one down there has to have skill and it can be quite hard, therefore, personnaly any one in the team should take cons, doesnt matter what prof you are running, its all the same, and if you dont want to run with selfish gits who wont buy a conset, get friends for the runs instead, problem solved.

And to be honest, the whole point of a run is to get a shot of a good drop at the end chest, UW runs arnt meant for ecto hoarding, okay yes some arses are out there that use them as a cheap excuse to farm, but once you know who there are /ignore, and if every one in your team does you may just have a chance of getting a decent team together. And if you realise that you do have a farmer in your group, sabotage the run, bye bye his ectos, meh you might just have lost 7k but you have stopped an arse, and the team may compensate you, if you are lucky

Point being, if you are that concerned about the drops you get, go farm, if you are actually wanting to do a run , then live with it, if you want that chance of a rare item, accept that you are going to have to pay expenses out to get the chance, or as stated earlier dont use cons. take a set with yourself or maybe two, and you will find that most pugs will chip in that 1k or 2k for the sets, be prepared to lose your cash, and then get over it.

PS: If you really want that rare drop, just save your cash and buy it

This is why, it should be if you don't pay up front, you don't play. Also, if everyone is made to chip in, they would be less likely to drop out.

Rage quitting under any circumstances should be a bannable offense. It is really, really childish.

I disagree. A good leader can usually tell who the troublemakers will be with just a little bit of chat while we're still in town. Bad leaders will simply reject based on Norn rank and profession. "OMG You're a lowly Rank 9??? GET LOST YOU NOOB!!!"

If we're discussing skill bars and making general preparation to start and one player is yelling "go!!go!!! I don't have all day!!!!!!! GO!!!!!", guess who I'm gonna kick.

It's not always possible to tell who's going to be the troublemakers, but there are many red flags you can spot before leaving and with a little conversation you can also judge the maturity level of your team. (How likely is your monk's mommy gonna kick him off the computer in a half hour?)

Raven,

It is true that by a little conversation, one can tell if there are jerks in ones group. On rare occasions I've left a group(only before we go in) because all the players were rude or obnoxious.

I would put this in riverside cause its definetly a god topic. Every group that I'm in... I really insist the terras/perma buys them. As of the new 'fastrun' build, I haven't completed UW once! When ursanway was the way, which only took 1hour 30mins, I completed it every time. This new build isn't so fool proof, with 1 healer healing 3 ursan, and 4 terras/permasin... the ursans have trouble in some parts because they only have the 1 healer.

I've heard SOOO many terras/permasin bitch and moan by saying "BULLSHIT, I AINT BUYING CONS! MY JOB IS THE HARDEST IN THE GROUP FFS", the honest truth is... a BOT could do their job, and they could do it better cause they would never messup shadow form/ob flesh. In the main, terras/pemasin should always bring it because everytime we've failed it seems that the terras/perma, whoevers still alive, go SOLOFARM! It's like WTF!. The worst part, is when they dry and scam you. Don't ever fall into the whole "kk, w/e ill buy them everyone pay me 1k each". What happens than... is that there paying NOTHING or makig about a 500g profit as there are many people that sell for 6.5k now. So, in doing this 'fair' split of the money, their paying NOTHING!

Yes, but a bot would be agaisnt the EULA, therefore the job is still hard, and out of the profs (except sin never tried ) there job is not harder, yet it is the most easiest out of all to mess up, therefore give them some credit, i my self have messed up,and you get 'OMFG YOU NOOB TERRA' every one is prone for a mistake, so dont be so harse on them when they fail. But ye i totaly agree, solo farmers in groups should really be reportable Yet, the job of cons is every ones responsibilty



And as for the 'fool' proof build, who said it was fool proof ?? Unless you know the people then you are gona fail big time, because A your monk cant monk and B the ursans overaggro because they dont know how to hold an aggro, and the terras /sin 'forget' them ever handy scrolls, the build is not fool proof, and if you intend to pug it vent/ts is a must overwise stick with the the full ursanteam, least then you dont fail

... you can't be serious, a terra make the same as an ursan? lol no thats completely false, unless you are a really lucky ursan or unlucky terra. Well as far as im concerned, the run is basically a solo farm + UW chest for the terras. I do it to farm for around 1-2e a half hour to hour honestly not a bad pay considering the nerfs on most other farming. As far as im concerned the people who get screwed over the most are the ursans. first they have to go through the GRUELING task of getting every little bit of points for the title then get a measly drop of money in UW and sometimes FoW. I disagree with you guys a bit with the profitability. True in some cases the chest drops really good things, but many times the group fails and you end up losing your investment and the terras go off and solo WITH YOUR MONEY. So each team member paid 1-2k for them to go off and solo. Now 1-2k isn't a lot these days but think about it in accumulation... 1-2k per group and if you farm 2 times a day 7 days a week that stacks up to 14-28k lost every week just by trying to buy consets... While the terras take minimal risk (on occasion that the reaper dies or the quest is failed) of any kind and even if the entire group fails, still makes a killer profit just by doing one successful clear... i vaguely remember a sin getting 6 ecto drops when the entire team failed on the last quest the 4 horsemen. I spent an hour maybe more on the computer and got nearly nothing, which i lost anyways in the next group because they had no clue what to do. I now have 355g in my inventory from this run , meaning i actually LOST money by doing these runs with few successful clears.

I do appreciate the non flaming and cursing on this topic, i was expecting far more so thank you all for keeping an intelligent debate..

Maybe a slight over exaggerated on my ecto averaging, however if the terra's are actually going for speed then they have far less chances of drops, because they shouldnt actually be clearing that much, if they are then they aren't very good terra's. However, if the WHOLE party have chipped in for these cons, aka terra's and all, well to be honest they have every right to farm, you have all put the same towards the cons, therefore just because the ursan team fails, why should they leave when their cons are still ticking away, making an easy farm for themselves Yes, you lose the profit, but heck unless you had nothing to do with the ursans wipe, then all you can do is blame yourself for being reckless on the aggroes, or blame the monk that was rubbish, and accept that the terra and sins will farm, with the cons THEY have chipped to

You make the group, you buy/craft the conset. simple

Im not asking them to NOT farm, its easy to see that they don't want to waste perfectly good consets, im just saying they also have a lower risk to lose their money. If the ursan fails and none of the terras/perma sin has a rez scroll its not fair that they make money out of something you helped pay for... I do agree with someone who said everyone should have consets, thats actually a very good idea and at least in the group people will have consets rather then spamming on WTB CONSET. I still feel that the perma sin and 3 terras should chip in 3.5k each, basically one measly ecto they could make in one run, not to bad imho...

Also, most of the terras now a days want money, they will obviously go more for the clear of the entire area to maximize their profits, thats just what they do. Many times they die because they over aggro searching for lots of ectos. Lets not forget they also get at least 4-5 golds a run sometimes even at 7(which i feel personally is an average).

The main problem with consets is simple to see: risk. Obviously terras make far more money then everyone else in the team, but none of them want to risk it. No pain, no gain... they lose money if they go into a noob group, but in one successful run they can definitely make it back.

i also see a major flaw in chipping in, sometimes the person just runs away with your money. I remember once when we each had to pay 2k each for consets. I didn't wanna wait for another group and i paid the 1k to one person and another 1k to another, we went in one conset used and near the middle we died. then the person who took the other 1k ran off with a collective group conset. heck that even might be the strategy of the terras, to get a free conset, so tell me how that is fair...

And you can't just pay in game because the group splits up. So i think this is a good new issue to bring up. And if you do this repeatedly, you can make lots of money 6k from each group, many times, depending on the type of group and if you go 2nd all the time you take no risk since if you last after the second round you are usually safe, plus you make the ectos if the ursans die or just through running for a few minutes. Pure profit... thats the major flaw i see in pooling assets...

I moved this to Riverside because the question is more opinion based and feels like a discussion.

Never used them, but then again, when I do elite missions I go with my guild group. We've played together so long, we have pretty good synergy.

If there were a definition of epic fail, that statement would be it.

Dont play ursan, you wont have problems.

Ya works out great.

I have posted something similar to this earlier but ran into it again last night. I usually play a war when going in a team to UW (600 monk if I want to go for ectos) but what I have noticed for quite some time is that Ursans are pretty much expected, many times demanded, to have con sets. Now I don't have a problem with this, I get a ton of mats and craft my own (gotta do something with skill points) and right now I have 12 sets on my war, my issue is that since teams have started moving to more terras and perma sins and less ursans and monks, there seems to be way more failures during runs, and as a general rule the terras and sins never have cons. The only reason I group with a pug for UW is for a chance at end chest, before when it was ursans and monks, 1 or maybe 2 terras, I felt the odds were pretty good at finishing run, I have wasted so many sets recently on terras farming away and failing horribly on 4 horseman or getting killed in there respective areas and ragequitting because they don't get an imediate res that I have just stopped going, the hassle, risk, and waste of time is just not worth it anymore.

One of the first things that should be decided is "are we using cons or not", before a half an hour goes by and you have already started the mission. The best strategy is to ask each joining party member up front if they are going to use cons.

If someone has an issue with using cons and not being compensated, they shouldn't offer to use the cons (or bother buying them )in the first place. This goes the same for res scrolls, DP removers ect.

If I'm in a group and I say, "I have res scrolls if the monk dies" or "I will take care of DP if necessary", then I have no place to get upset if I need to use what I've already offered. If everyone starts dying every ten seconds then just say "sorry that was my last (whatever)" and let that be that.

]

Pretend you've got skill and don't use cons - or pugs for that matter.

Offtopic

Ursan r 10 is pretty hard to reach even with the HM books. I tried to do it both ways through going the quest (forgot which one) in olafstead and doing the books. Altogether you probably need to spend at least a month casual or a week pretty darn serious to get to r10... thats just my opinion, but i definately feel that it is if not difficult then long and tedious to do, which ive pretty much given up on my war because i myself could not do the HM missions well enough, or just way too recklessly, and i didn't really want to do the quests

but i digress....

Damien i really agree with you whole pitching in thing with the consumables, and i actually think i like the idea...having everyone giving a piece of the consets and more, seems interesting and definately worthwhile to do. i.e. all Terras/permasin bring a rez scroll and an armor of salvation or grail of might, ursans bring a essence of celerity and monk bring a morale booster/ DP removers or pitching in for the essences (1.5k each per person on celerities?). Could work...

right not im not doing UW speed run basically because its not really great in the profits and really mean people generally run it. I also have lots of guilt saying no to people wanting to get into my group, which i feel everyone should be given a chance... But im just trying to get some info on whether people agree change should be done on the population or not, it seems that its on the not side, which is fine...

Until Shadow Form gets nerfed I'll just solo Chaos Planes instead of doing speed runs.

Considering the time having to be put into making a team it's far more profitable over time spent, I have no need to rely on team mates, and no need for spending money on consumables.

Actually on that note a funny thing is Monks seem to think they are the be all and end all when its a ursan grp..

U take away consets and see how well they do,I see them complain of nrg managment and see grp wipes etc..Quite funny when you think about it huh considering they always want Ursan to use consets..no we know why.

ok back to the topic,I think if u go with a pug everyone should pay,I dont go on those runs for speed so the terra is there to solo horsemen etc but the whole grp can still clear the plains with them..U dont have to let them solo those areas if it bothers you they make more ecto.

Just means the run isnt as fast.

Actually, getting Norn to Rank10 is not hard and doesn't take long. Getting in Norn Point Farm groups in Olafstead, depending on how much you play, might take a week or two. You get anywhere from a few K to 10K+ points per run, depending on the random bonuses you get and are able to keep.

Agreed. Unless you're bad, you really don't need them. Just don't have terrible monks and don't over aggro too much.

Of All the "grindable" titles Norn is by far the easiest to get. This is fact. If you think Norn is hard then I can't imagine what you think about the others. Takes me 2-4 days of "casual" gaming to max my norn titles. I have maxed it on my Monk, Para, War, and my Ranger is r9. Also have a few other characters in the r4-5 range.

On topic: What pisses me off the most is this...

Party Leader: GLF 1 more Ursan (must have cons) 7/8...
Me: *invite myself*
Party Leader: Do you have cons?
Me: Yes, what about you guys? Anyone of you have cons?
Rest of team: (dead silent)
Me: So you're telling me you've arranged 7 other people to join your party and they are all counting on the 8th guy to bring cons?
Me: *leaves and finds another group*

I don't mind bringing cons but if I get a full team who's intent is to leech off of 1 guy instead of contributing their own cons then I gotta leave. If they plan to chip in I might reconsider but often this is not the case.

It's a speed run, so yes we're talking about con sets, also pugs are not that good to risk playing without cons. That doesn't mean all pugs need a con set.

Don't expect terras and sins to bring the cons as the more money or ectos they have, the poorer and selfish they will act.

The best sollution is to devide the cost per person for a set, but even then some of them will leave.

'I are terra or sin, I gotz me 12 ectoz evry 30 minutz, thatz how poor me am.'

If you want negotiation of some kind, and fair division of cons...ideally, each person might put ONE kind of consumable up? i.e. you put up the grail, someone else puts up celerity, someone else does blahdy blah. This takes a bit of luck, but that way, nobody's out ALL his or her consumables.
It's not easy to get, I suppose, but if you feel strongly that you should not be putting up a FULL set, then find people that will do this with you.

I think its funny how 'Terra's get more' is the defense whenever Consets become an issue. I've had 10 - 15 runs in a row as a Terra where all I get is the ecto from the chest, and then switched to Warrior and got 3. No part of the team is guaranteed anything. Not to mention, speed runs aren't about ecto, its about getting the reward chest as fast as possible. If you're concerned about ecto, Solo Sin, you'll get a lot more.

To whoever said Terra's need cons more than the rest.
Swiftness and Gold Eggs are winful.

The best choices.
Either run with a guild group or split cons evenly.

so he buys a conset for 7k, gets 7k from his team, and benefits while the entire team pays? No.

If you bring a conset, use it. If you don't bring a conset, pay those who do. If 3 people bring sets, each of them should get 5k. So they pay 2k for their conset, the non-conset people pay 3k total each during the run. I'd say that's fair, the people bringing took the initiative and take the risk of a party wipe/fail and brought the set, they should get the 1k break.

Interesting points....

Well i think to best summarize what my point is that i would like to to not have to lose money for running these runs...thats all. i feel that a lot of the terras don't care if the team fails, why? because some make 6 ectos in the run and they don't really care about the end chest.. i will clarify with an example i remember

i was in a run where we got to the last quest, four horsemen. the perma sin had already made 6 ecto and the terras made 3 ecto each (possibly more, but as far as i remember they were around 3 or so). We lost... permas and terras ran off with a nice profit.. they didn't really care we all pitched in for the consets

Sometimes i think that the ursans/monks are the suckers and the terras and permas just do the quest for the purpose of farming the ectos in HM, they use your money to make their farm more profitable... Probably not true, but still...

maybe ive been in so many groups that have failed... Maybe its made me sour, but i have to believe other people are going through the same thing. Anyways i think i think ill stop doing the runs... ill accept with my losses