An examination of PUG and Hero/Hench gameplay.

The following is an examination on PUG and Hero/Hench gameplay, the elements of each, the advantages and disadvantages, the arguments advocating and denouncing each, and lastly, possible improvements for the benefit of us, the players.

First, a comparison of the disadvantages and advantages of both heroes and humans. When I speak of humans I refer to pickup-group players, not to organized guild teams, which are sometimes as good as heroes.

Heroes (and henchmen)

Advantages:

- they follow orders usually
- run whatever build they are ordered to
- have access to all unlocked skills
- do not act of their own volition
- are silent
- do not trash talk the player
- don't mind when I have real life interruptions and need to step away for a few minutes/hours

Disadvantages:

- an arbitrary and unneeded limit to the number of heroes that can be used
- henchmen have terrible skill bars for the most part, excluding EotN Zho.
- cannot use PvE skills
- can only understand basic commands, though at least they follow them
- ArenaNet appears to have subtly messed with their AI at some point, adding the elements of random aggro stupidity that are normally found only in PUGs

Pickup Group Players

Advantages:

- Supposedly socializing. However I think most people here will agree that when we want to socialize, we will go in a town or talk with our guild/alliance, rather than developing a headache. Note that most PUG players are not the sort of people who one would ideally associate with.

Disadvantages:

- young mental (and often physical) age
- run terrible builds
- trash talk
- ignore instructions
- ignore orders
- aggro
- believe in Tank-Nuker-Healer
- appear to become irritated if I choose to go AFK at any time for any duration
- takes time to form groups, especially in low-population areas
- often have names that either contain spelling errors (why would you not CHECK a PvE character's name for mistakes?) or that I find highly offensive (not swearing or discrimination; that doesn't bother me, but things like "Giggly Snoopuff" or some such; I saw that in RA earlier today and I'd like to know if that constitutes a ban for sheer stupidity)
- unskilled
- did I mention they run terrible builds?
- refuse to use good builds
- insist on having a tank
- You get the idea.

So let's look over the arguments for Pickup Groups and the arguments for Hero/Hench.

Arguments FOR HeroHench:

1) Hero/Hench permits us a flexible gaming schedule; we can start playing when we want, take a break when we want, and stop when we want.
- No comment really, it's a fact.
2) Hero/Hench are on the whole a lot smarter than pickup groups.
- This is for the most part true; despite being AI they do theoretically have higher IQs than the average Guild Wars pickup group player. There are a few gems amongst PUGs, true, but the percentage is rather small.
3) Hero/Hench follow orders.
- This is mostly true; there are annoying occasions when they don't, however. Interestingly that only started within the last few months.

Arguments AGAINST HeroHench:

1) Hero/Hench decreases amount of time spent playing with other players.
- This depends; a lot of us PvP with other players.
- We come to PvE to reduce stress, PUGs are a known cause of stress.
- Some of us don't want to play with other players.
2) Guild Wars is a team game, an MMO.
- You have me there. Oh, wait, you don't, because this is meant to be a game that can be played with or without humans.

Here's a quote from the Prophecies box that pretty much shatters the anti-AI argument right here:

Sure, they aren't really very skillful, but it's nice to note that the game is meant to be equally viable with AI.

Last argument AGAINST Hero/Hench:

3) If you don't like playing with people, play a singleplayer game.
A few problems with that.
- The game, as previously mentioned, is fully intended to be a singleplayer game if we want it to.
- Show me a singleplayer game set in the Guild Wars setting, Tyria, with the same areas, skills, classes, story and massive amount of content.
- Show me the offline version of Guild Wars. We play Guild Wars because we enjoy it, not for the community.

Onwards to the discussion of Pickup Groups.

Arguments FOR Pickup Groups:

1) It's fun to play with other people.
- Not the average PUG, it isn't. It's fun with guilds, though.
2) It's good to help other players learn the game.
- Generally speaking, in 8-man PUG groups you are likely to find one person in every three groups who is mature and willing to learn. However, most such intelligent players will have moved on to Hero/Hench in short order.
3) The game is meant to be a team game.
- See earlier comment. It's meant to be team or solo depending on user preference.
4) I miss the old days of Prophecies where everyone played in teams.
- Most of us don't. Team up with the other (insert number here) people who also miss it and play with them. Or play with the PUGs you like so very much.

Arguments AGAINST Pickup Groups:

1) It's stressful dealing with them.
- Known fact.
2) Playing with a PUG rarely leads to a quick and efficient mission.
- Known fact.
3) PUG players are irritating children with psychological issues, mainly related to anger and selfishness.
- Come on, that's not fair, children can't help it. Actually, come to think of it, it is a fair judgement; the game is rated T for Teen, and most PUG players really shouldn't be playing Guild Wars because they're too young and immature. Many are so rude that if they behaved like that face to face with me I'd be hauling them over to a psychiatrist. Or a mental institution.
4) PUGs take ages to form and refuse to run decent builds.
- Ages to form, yes. Refuse to run decent builds, no. Actually, just kidding, I've yet to find a PUG that didn't whine when I explained the problems with their build.
5) PUGs are hostile, inconvenient, and a genuine displeasure to play with.
- I don't dispute that.

So let's compare the basics of each playstyle.

HeroHench: Solitary, mechanical precision, limited hero AI, limited hero number, easier on the casual player.
PUGs: Group, no coordination, insults, headaches, hard on casuals, mental deficiencies, immature.

Well, let's see what we could do for each group.

Pickup Groups:

First, let's note that it is not possible to move HeroHench players over to playing with PUGs. All the encouragement in the world will not persuade us to the present group of people, and ArenaNet has no method of actually forcing us to play with them; all they can force us to do is leave the game.

So it needs to be something that adjusts the current state of PUGs.

Actually, I think that barring an in-depth psychiatric evaluation and many therapy sessions, PUGs are going to remain shunned by the skilled players of the game. Nothing that can be done. There is also no real adjustment PUGs need besides more players, and the only way that's happening is more people joining the game because existing H/H players are staying H/H. So leave PUGs as they are.

HeroHench:

Hero/Hench is already done solo, sometimes duo, so there's no need to "draw PUGs over to H/H;" indeed the few that lose the FDS and go over to H/H will do so of their own volition.

Can H/H be improved? Absolutely. There is a single large problem with it, and I think it's a problem that could be solved really easily.

Note that Henchmen are difficult to control, cannot be used in elite areas, and mostly have bad builds.

Heroes are limited at 3. I think a lot of you can guess where I'm going with this.

There is no actual reason to limit heroes to 3. It won't imbalance gameplay since Ursan already killed PvE.

What's the worst about it? Flags would need a new GUI by the compass? Most of us would take heroes without the extra flags, or with a very very simple one to add the other flags. How hard can it be, anyways?

Programming issues? I think that if ArenaNet had time to make things like Ursan Blessing and the Zaishen Title Track, they have time to do this.

Discouraging PUG gameplay? As I went over earlier, PUGs damage themselves more than heroes ever will.

The only reason to limit heroes is to limit fun for players. The objective of a game is to have fun, so is it not reasonable to remove this limit and let us use 7 heroes? (11 in Urgoz + Deep).

I propose that the number of heroes usable be increased to the group maximum of the player's area. Additionally I propose that heroes be permitted to use PvE-Only skills. Furthermore I humbly request ArenaNet to consider the option of using full AI teams in Guild Wars 2 for such events as raiding.

Please state below if you agree and add you reasons why if possible; even if it's as simple as, "Because I like having fun."

If you should happen to wish us ill and prevent the enhancement of our Guild Wars experience, you may say so below - but if you do, give a valid and coherent reason as to how and why our full hero teams that you will never meet will somehow inconvenience you.

Posts that are meaningless, such as random insults with no backing, and that contribute nothing to the discussion, are not appreciated and are considered unwelcome spam.

(Personal note - I hate when the rules change and it's completely unnoticeable.)

I agree.

In my opinion, heroes didn't kill PuGs, but PuGs killed PuGs. Heroes more or less "saved" people. Those who used henchmen pre-hero days will go on with H/H. Those who hated PuGs because of the "against" reasons listed would have done the same. Those who are using them currently will still do so. Those who wish to PuG PuG.

Epic thread / poll.

Just ignore the nubs that complain about QQers, they are just QQing themselves.

Agreed.

The only reason Hero/Hench is called that is because we can't use 5/7/11 Heroes. On a whole, I think something like this would reduce the amount of noobish PUGs and general frustration that goes with them, but still allow people to roll with guildies when they wanted to play co-op. There's also the fact that co-op isn't very co-op when everyone in the PUG has skillbars that don't synergise.

Plus it's just nice to not have to warn everyone you have to go to the toilet.

I always thought that they would never do this... but I read something about it in the wiki.... anyways, I doubt it happening until GW2 goes out and becomes harder to find people to join with.

Very good post .

Anet stop fecking around with useless crap like moneypit PvE emotes and gimme 7 controllable hero's.

Agree.

It would make Vanquishing more easy, but I HATE THE AVERAGE PVER.

With this update, my dreams of the perfect PvE group will be fullfilled.

Interesting topic and well written OP.

Personally it's simple and I think you need one more option:

Guild/friend teams:The basis of my GW time.Fun, efficient and uber.

H/H Hero:When I want to attain a goal easily and without hassle when friends or guildies are offline excluding high-end.

PuG:Mainly high-end when Guildies or friends are offline, usually a hassle.Otherwise low-end missions when I'm bored to help others.

In terms of the poll I'm in two minds.

/signed as it would make the game easier.

/unsigned as a large potion the social aspect would be right out the window.

I don't like PUG monks...
or wammos
or sins
or rangers
or necros
or ursans
:'(
I wanna be able to do high end stuff whenever I feel like it with a group of seven clever AI who will run what I want and do as I ask

That would be very nice.

/agreed

i hated the fact my Guildie could hero and henchie everything in HM (Except eternal grove/Thunderhead keep and Dzagonur Bastion, Needed me for them)

and i needed his help, plus if the ability to have unlimited Heroes would be great for the areas u can not take henchmen-The Deep, Urgozs Warren, Domain of Anguish, Underworld, FoW.

oh and trying to PuG in NM and suceed is a head ache, i'd never try and pug HM urgh.

but then if people like my guildie had a whole party of heroes he'd be unstoppable and would make the game to easy for him.

and yes Henchmen skills/AI do suck, my monk will be drained of energy while healer henchmen is slowly healing like a PuG >

I really see no reason to limit the number of heroes. Sure, people want me to "socialize" and play with others (I'm playing a video game, isn't that sort of a non-social activity anyway?). Generally, the PUGs you find at a random outpost/mission are not smart, have bad builds, talk shit about useless stuff, all of the above, etc.

Who knows, they might sell a few copies of NF because of this?

i am glad some one has pointed out the pros and cons. this is something i would like to seeing as i have so many heros that i would love to use instead of the hences. i would love to see 3 necros and 3 eles but also with this update i would love to see 5 new heros added ie the ones that only have 2 right now (sin para mesmer rit derv) i think these guys could be added in the game at different points you could also make it so like the bmp rewards you a hero if you do everything in it. or have another kurzick derv. just that sort of thing or like a ghost hero that you get once you ascend that is a para.

/signed
How many people actually PUG now we all use H/H so why not just give us 7 hero slots?

I voted yes (not without some thought however) - here's why:

1) I tend to do H/H nearly always anyways, so this would make it much easier for me in HM especially.... although NM would perhaps become "tooooo" easy now?

2) I do enjoy some time with friends or guilds (dungeon or questing) now and again, and this would not harm or change that one bit - or would it???

* to answer my above question - I would propose that the Hero limit in Elite Areas be left the same. That would mean that one would not be able to be a complete Lone Wolf throughout the entire game. To receive the greater rewards that are found in those areas, one must still seek out the assistance of others. It basically would mean that Guilds would still have a viable PVE function, other than an ingame chat room. *

The vast maority of the game can be Hero and henched inc. HM
The Henchman monks do grand.
Plus with PvE skills its not that hard even in HM.
They stated before i think that 7 hero parties wont work with current mechanics,
It seems pretty overpowered aswell thats not including the PVE equipable skillbar.

As for it not directly effecting them and never seeing them i could saw the exact same thing for a magical 1-hit kill everything skill, (yes its extreme but still)

Why complain when you'll never see me using it, You can play normally i'll and i'll use this way.

Henchmen cannot be taken into elite areas and their performance is inferior to a good hero build.

Overpowered? Compared to a full guild team carrying, say, an Imbagon, a Dslash Warrior, Sabway, and other existing overpowered abilities? I think not.

It's extreme and hardly related. You're suggesting an overpowered game-winner, I'm suggesting a change that will enhance our experience and won't even be as overpowered as Ursan Blessing. Moreover a coordinated guild team is already far more powerful than AI ever will be, so I suppose your opinion is that players shouldn't play with fellow guild members?

I voted for.

I enjoy my heroes very much; and I don't always have the time to play. when I do, it's often very hard to get into a team,and I don't mind Micro-managing my Heroes. Please! Let me take all of my Heroes when I go out on Quests and Missions!

Vandevere

OP, I know you've tried to pre-empt the "if you hate it so much, just play some other single player game" response, but seriously, Guild Wars is primarily about multiplayer, with an optional single player aspect. The single player option was never meant to offer the same benefits and power as partying with other people. Nor should it.

To allow 7 heroes all with PvE skills would utterly kill any reason at all to group with other people in 95% of the game. Maybe that's what you'd like, but it isn't going to happen.

I'm sorry, but how is this thread any different than the 50+ page "allow 7 heroes" thread in Riverside? Why feel the need to create a new thread instead of adding onto the fully hashed out arguments in that thread?

Seeing that almost every possible angle regarding the PuG versus Hero/Henchmen debate and the possible positive and negative effects regarding seven heroes has been fully explained and debated there, I don't see the need to debate it again here. Your post is nicely presented, but definitely does not accurately reflect even HALF of the arguments regarding this topic.

I encourage anyone reading this topic to visit that thread (located here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ghlight=heroes )...you'll quickly gain some insight into both the people that are pro and against this issue. In the least you'll get much more information than this decidedly one-sided position put forth by Zahr (who was coincidentally an active participant in that thread...).

Remove hero limit.

If ANet wanted us to be social and play with other players, then maybe ANet should be social and tell us what they're trying to do with the game more.

You seem to be under the impression that the benefit of playing with other people should be strictly materialistic.

No, the benefit of playing with other people should be playing with other people. Not because other people can use more powerful skills.

I, most of the time, do HM with guildies. It's much more fun than H/H (or H) because I don't have to micro prot spirit all the time and I can talk with other people while killing stuff. Not to mention good players can make far better decisions than current AI can.

But there are times when no one wants to do Duncan HM, or maybe my guild just finished Kathandrax and no one else needs it. Those times, I still want to be able to get it done without waiting (yes, I spent 13 days waiting for a group to do Duncan HM; if only I had 7 heroes I wouldn't have had to do that. Is this really supposed to be a feature of the game?)

/signed all the way

/signed just for the fact that koss has never draw any genitals on the radar.

He does - he just draws them to scale.

You'd need to zoom out.

[QUOTE=Zahr Dalsk]Henchmen cannot be taken into elite areas and their performance is inferior to a good hero build. [/qoute]

Pretty much all of prophicies and Factions can be done in NM with jsut henchmen, and Elona with H/H.
NM isnt hard, HM may require the help of a friend on some missions or areas but the PvE skills make it easier.


Yeah but thats Humans working together, not 1 person. and seeing how allowing PvE skills on heros would allows you to run ursan and other builds it just makes the problem more accesible.

I was replying to the way you went about it, as to how it wouldn't effect alot so ye may aswell have it.

Isn't that what your after? By allowing heroes some Guild memebers will go solo, i know it wont be that dramatic but alot mroe will sol othen group.

Just because PvE is a bit imbalanced doesnt mean this should be implemented, 2 wrongs don't amek a right etc.
Spent 95% of my PvE time H/H at least.
And it wasnt needed before and sure as hell isnt needed now,

I see where your coming from and but still

/signed no

This one has a poll in it... at least in this one we can clearly see the popular opinion of what's what without 1 vocal jackass claiming to speak for a non-existant majority.

pugs killed any reason to group with other(non-guildie/ally) people.

Fact is until they add some ascended henchmen or 7 heroes to the deep/urgoz, DoA, FoW/UW outposts I don't believe anet is giving us the best product they could.

You can complete everything in this game, bar a couple of elite areas, with the current H/H. Upping the limit would only thin out the PuG crowd, which isn't in the best interest of anyone.

Wouldn't mind allowing a selection of pve skills to heroes though.

No, they're giving you a product where it is optimal to play with other people if you want to use the best team builds and skillsets. That is clearly their design for the game and I respect them for sticking to it.

It is not optimal to play with PUGs because they don't use the best team builds and skillsets and I doubt they ever will.

Playing with fellow guild members is optimal, and removing the hero limit won't suddenly make people stop playing with guild members.

People play with each other for the social aspect, so even if heroes were better than a guild team (which they won't be with current AI) players would still go with guild members and friends. Regardless of statistical advantage/disadvantage. But a PUG does not present a good social aspect, and thus no matter how you adjust gameplay ability for or against PUGs or H/H, PUG players will themselves force others away, because they are not pleasant people to socialize with.

Has ArenaNet considered removing the cap for a week to see how everyone likes it and just how much 'imbalance' it would actually cause?

If the game is easy enough to H/H, which it is in 90%, then why do we need PVE skills, ursan blessing and consumables?

No one is askin for 7 heroes to make the game easier, we are asking for them to make the game more FUN, just as people find it fun to play with UB.

The vast majority of players want to be able to use 7 heroes, and this would also bring many many players back into the game.

When you speak against 7 heroes, you are speaking for a small minority of players. Anet clearly do not know what is good for this game or what their players would enjoy and ruin it with thier stupid changes like PVE skills and consumables.

Sorry Anet, but your design vision for GW is a failure. Wake up and start listening to your players.

/signed

my entire summer so far ive played with 2 good players (including guildies). its sad really

I'm a casual player. I don't PVP very much, I just like to run around in PVE and kill Monsters. Maybe I'll grind a little, maybe I'll farm a little too. But everything I do I do to have FUN.

I'm not a Leet-type person, I don't have much in the way of Titles either. I just love the fact that after a hard day of dealing with jack-asses and idiots at work, that I can log-in to GW and take my frustrations out on poor hapless monsters...

Because my hours very often are odd, I don't often come on when many other players are around. It's easiest, therefore, for me to use my Heroes and Henchies...

Besides, as someone already pointed out, a Hero won't rage at you, and they won't leave on you, right in the middle of a tough Mission either...

Everyone in favor of this should start bombarding Anet with complaints that they want 7 heroes in the game. I will start doing this myself, if anyone else feels the desire to want 7 heroes, please join in with E mail spams to Anet support.

They cannot think that 7 heroes is any more imbalanced then ursan way and PVE skills, but they do.

Official QQing by e mails to A net start now. Feel free to join in, and remember,

The more people that join in, the more chance we will have of making Anet realise their mistake and getting 7 heroes.

I'll do that once I figure out what address to send it to

I'll also try to think of a sort of generic template and the points to outline.

/signed for all hero teams.

I already use extra heros by going to places with guildy and them leaving their heros with me. Thats what we could do in the meantime... share heros. Doesn't take long.

I agree to raising the Hero limit, but I still say 7 heroes is over powered.

I vote for 5 heroes (7 in Urgoz/Deep).

With 5 heroes, most areas in Prophecies, the original game, can have full parties, and it still leaves a little challenge for the 8 man areas. Not to mention that Elite areas would go from Ursans only to heroes only.

Do 7 heroes and you 100% separate those who pug (and must or be stuck with henchmen) and those who will just use heroes.

I also say that Prophecies and Factions should get a few heroes of their own, like how they had Olias and Zenmai (although you needed Nightfall as well).

To make it fair, remove some "side heroes" from Nightfall, and put them in Factions and Prophecies. Ending up making the total hero amount 30, 3 of each profession.

Can easily be done by adding 1 Assassin, 1 Ritualist, 1 Mesmer, 1 Paragon, and 1 Dervish. (And making Devona, Mhenlo, Eve, Aiden, and Cynn heroes would be good as well, removing them from henchmen. To keep it 3 per profession, change Olias', Jin's, Sousuke's, and Goren's profession. Seeing how they are side heroes, they don't have a big impact on the storyline, just a couple quests and dialogues, but their personalities will still be the same).

Having Devona and co. put in Prophecies, then 1 of the other professions (sin, etc) put in factions, the amount of heroes would be more equaled out with the 3 per profession concept.

7 heroes is still weaker then 7 humans so stop using the false argument that it would be too overpowered.

Just e mail support and they say 'post it on a community forum', but then keep on updating your ticket everyday. If they close it, just open a new ticket and keep going.

They might get the message eventually.

Also ask people ingame that are in favor of 7 heroes to email support and not give up with bombarding support.

@bhavv:what server on AoC? Shadowblade here.

OT: I think the team thing is limited to PvP and Guilds, now. The rest died with the hero option and the general failing of pugs. With Factions and NF it was just made too easy to get to level 20 without learning decent skills for playing the game, and pugs started failing more and more. If you are going to have so many heroes, let people solo with 5-7 of them.

Please. I'm tired of Mhenlo looking up Livia's dress instead of healing.

I played on Scourge PvP, heh, dead server >.>

Excellent, care to elaborate and explain how 7 heroes without formations and pve skills are overpowered when compared to normal team consisting of 8 people with pve skills?