Are Paragons Really Broken?
rebirthofdragon
I keep hearing people talk about the Imbagon, but I just don't get it. Sure, it has great energy gain and fast adrenaline, but there's virtually no offense! I suppose that, as far as providing party-wide defenses and moderate damage is concerned, Paragons do it better than anyone else. But since they don't really kill anything, I don't see how they're broken. Auto-attacking and occasionally throwing up shouts hardly seems like it would make for a OMG TOO GOOD character. Could someone please dispel my ignorance?
![[Morkai]](/static/static/../Img/avatar144860_1.gif){kind=avatar}
[Morkai]
People are stupid. Is all i have to say really.
Oh, and with an OoP Dervish Para's can throw out a decent DPS, whilst still giving everyone +100 Armor every 3 seconds.
Oh, and with an OoP Dervish Para's can throw out a decent DPS, whilst still giving everyone +100 Armor every 3 seconds.
Boogz
Paras are really broken, they have huge partywide defensive buffs that can't be removed([Incoming][Defensive Anthem][Never Surrender][Stand Your Ground],etc), efficient partywide heals([Song of Restoration][Ballad of Restoration], in a full para team [Chorus of Restoration]), and huge DPS([Aggressive Refrain][Go For the Eyes][Vicious Attack][Cruel Spear])
edit: forgot to mention the offensive buffs([Anthem of Guidance][Anthem of Weariness][Anthem of Disruption][Anthem of Envy][Crippling Anthem][Zealous Anthem][Anthem of Flame], etc)
and the famous Imbagon
That's my opinion
edit: forgot to mention the offensive buffs([Anthem of Guidance][Anthem of Weariness][Anthem of Disruption][Anthem of Envy][Crippling Anthem][Zealous Anthem][Anthem of Flame], etc)
and the famous Imbagon
That's my opinion
Trinity Fire Angel
OoP Dervish? Don;t you mean Necro?
Mortal Amongst Mere Gods
@ Trinity: There's a D/N build that uses Mysticism for e-management. I'm considering running it on one of my heroes for support.
I agree that paras don't have crap worth of dps, but they're broken. Boogz pretty well summed it up: really good buffs, crazy shouts/chants, irremovable protection. It's like a prot monk that can't be stopped by ench stripping. I only know of two skills that can stop shouts: [Skill]Well of Silence[/Skill] and [Skill]Vocal Minority[/Skill].
I agree that paras don't have crap worth of dps, but they're broken. Boogz pretty well summed it up: really good buffs, crazy shouts/chants, irremovable protection. It's like a prot monk that can't be stopped by ench stripping. I only know of two skills that can stop shouts: [Skill]Well of Silence[/Skill] and [Skill]Vocal Minority[/Skill].
Shayne Hawke
When you have a dual monk backline and +100 armor on almost everyone, you leave five slots open for damage dealing. If you can't kill with that much power left over, you're doing it wrong.
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Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel
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OoP Dervish? Don;t you mean Necro?
Negatory. Scroll down. Short-duration enchants + party-wide healz. gogogo.
Trinity Fire Angel
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Originally Posted by Mortal Amongst Mere Gods
@ Trinity: There's a D/N build that uses Mysticism for e-management. I'm considering running it on one of my heroes for support.
sounds interesting....
where do you get the +100 from? ele's have 60AL. Stand your ground only gives +24AL. Are you talking about Shields up or Save Yourselves as well??? isn;t there an armour stacking nerf that prevents stacking past +25AL. So casters can only get to 85AL
edit: from the wiki;\
The sum of all armor buffs gained from skills and effects cannot exceed +25. However, if one or more effects add more than +25 armor by themselves (for example +40 from Physical Resistance), then the largest of these effects counts as the total buff, even if it is larger than +25.
where do you get the +100 from? ele's have 60AL. Stand your ground only gives +24AL. Are you talking about Shields up or Save Yourselves as well??? isn;t there an armour stacking nerf that prevents stacking past +25AL. So casters can only get to 85AL
edit: from the wiki;\
The sum of all armor buffs gained from skills and effects cannot exceed +25. However, if one or more effects add more than +25 armor by themselves (for example +40 from Physical Resistance), then the largest of these effects counts as the total buff, even if it is larger than +25.
wetsparks
I believe the +100 armor is this skill, theres nothing to fear. it reduces damage by up to 31% which I think may be the equivalent of an extra 100 armor points.
Rick Thene
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Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel
sounds interesting....
where do you get the +100 from? ele's have 60AL. Stand your ground only gives +24AL. Are you talking about Shields up or Save Yourselves as well??? isn;t there an armour stacking nerf that prevents stacking past +25AL. So casters can only get to 85AL +100 from "SY!". Armour boosts can't stack beyond +20 (or is it +40?) but can go beyond that through individual skills.
Yes, Para's are overpowered. It doesn't really matter how much offense they have if no one in your party can die. Just get the Necros and Warriors to kill stuff.
where do you get the +100 from? ele's have 60AL. Stand your ground only gives +24AL. Are you talking about Shields up or Save Yourselves as well??? isn;t there an armour stacking nerf that prevents stacking past +25AL. So casters can only get to 85AL +100 from "SY!". Armour boosts can't stack beyond +20 (or is it +40?) but can go beyond that through individual skills.
Yes, Para's are overpowered. It doesn't really matter how much offense they have if no one in your party can die. Just get the Necros and Warriors to kill stuff.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon
If you don't think a character that can keep a +100 armor party wide buff up indefinitely while negating up to 35% of all damage 50% of the time, I really don't want to know your definition of broken.
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imbagon reduces damage dealt to your team by about 82%, more if you include theres nothing to fear being up half the time and the partywide heal it provides. not every character in a team has to be a wtf 90 dps all the time killing machine. welcome to guild wars.|
I believe the +100 armor is this skill, theres nothing to fear. it reduces damage by up to 31% which I think may be the equivalent of an extra 100 armor points.
Wrong. Save yourselves is the skill that gives +100 armor. +100 armor is equivalent to reducing damage by ~82.32%.
Rhamia Darigaz
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Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
If you don't think a character that can keep a +100 armor party wide buff up indefinitely while negating up to 35% of all damage 50% of the time, I really don't want to know your definition of broken.
im thinking that build with the necro saccing health with an enchantment while under shadow walk - the one that was literally hit the health sac enchant as fast as you can and shit near you explodes and caused the shadow walk chage a bit ago - would be his cutoff for broken
poasiods
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Originally Posted by wetsparks
Pleikki
+100ar from SY (save yourselves) & theres nothing to fear and some other shouts and you cant take dmg, that makes paragons so good, does monk makes dmg neither ? No, but still they're good.
la_cabra_de_vida
To answer the question yes they are. Unsnarable dps from the midline with partywide buffs and high al is horribly broken.
odly
I agree that the paragon in PvE is overpowered. But this is mostly because of the PvE skill's. I think SY in itself is broken.
I wonder how balanced a paragon without PvE skills is these days. I know they were overpowered in PvP as well, but the balanced adjustments have remedied that I think. Milan-V
No, Save Yourselves! is broken.
rebirthofdragon
So then, if I'm understanding this right, Paragons are so good because 2 of them can keep up ["Save Yourselves!"] and ["There's Nothing to Fear!"] indefinitely while healing each other and poking opponents to death.
The default build seems to be: 2x [Build prof=P/W Leadership=11+1 Spear Mastery=11+1+1 Command=8+1][Focused anger][aggressive refrain]["Save Yourselves!"]["There's Nothing to Fear!"]["Go for the eyes!"][Anthem of Flame][No skill][no skill][/build] Admittedly, this makes for a pretty strong, versatile build. However, if you look at: 2x [build prof=W/P Strength=12+1 Sword=12+1+1][Enduring Harmony]["For Great Justice!"][Enraging Charge][Dragon Slash][Flail]["Save Yourselves!"][Brawling Headbutt][Steelfang Slash][/build] the builds are surprisingly close in most respects. For example, armor: P/W: 80(base) + 10(insignia) - 20(cracked armor) + 100(SY!)+ 16(shield) + ~40(TNTF) = 226 W/P: 80(base) + 20(insignia) + 100(SY!)+ 16(shield) = 216 But where the W/P is short on heals, the P/W is very short on damage. The biggest advantage of the paragon seems to be the ability to attack from a distance, but does that really outweigh the damage and KD of the warrior? In this context, the P/W appears actually disadvantaged unless you whole party has to stand against absolutely MASSIVE damage and that ~40 extra armor is necessary for your back liners. Is that right or am I still overlooking some important factor? The reason I ask is that I am getting bored of my Mesmer (what with [Angorodon's Gaze] getting totally nerfed and [Signet of Illusions] not being as cool as I thought) and want to try something else. I've tried Rangers on several occasions and got bored every time, I tried Paragon once, and now Mesmer once, and I have, and enjoy, every other prof. Tyla
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Originally Posted by Milan-V
No, Save Yourselves! is broken.
Both are broken. SY is just broken in itself while Paragons are broken as a whole.
And don't call spear damage mediocre. It's melee-like damage from a distance, and if that doesn't say something to you please go away. Extremely good considering you're at range. DarkNecrid
Paragons don't do damage, because Spears do Sword damage, which is a pressure damage range. They aren't built to do BIG DOMAGE!1!!!!! though [Spear of Fury] comes pretty close with a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing +40.
Bowstring Badass
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Originally Posted by Rick Thene
+100 from "SY!". Armour boosts can't stack beyond +20 (or is it +40?) but can go beyond that through individual skills.
They don't stack past +25. Also sword dps from a range is broken. I can basically run a sword warrior but with an IAS that never ends. Paragons = broken. Rebirth your math is wrong. You can't get save yourselves onto yourself unless someone else in your party is using it as well.
Crimson Flame
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Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
They don't stack past +25.
Also sword dps from a range is broken. I can basically run a sword warrior but with an IAS that never ends. Paragons = broken. Rebirth your math is wrong. You can't get save yourselves onto yourself unless someone else in your party is using it as well. He mentioned two SY Paras running together. And I think that to a certain extent, PvE only skills are broken as a whole. I mean, look at something like Eternal Aura+Avatar of Melandru on dervishes. That's an unstrippable, permanent immunity to conditions (melee's main shutdown), susceptible only to interrupts. Sure, SY and TNtF are broken, but I think it's the general trend to make higher-end PvE accessible to more people. That's just my opinion, though. Tyla
^
And if you're /Mo or /N, you have a condition removal that is basically immunity to conditions. DarkNecrid
A Me/Mo can use Fast Casting and [Mindbender] and [Ebon Vanguard Battle Standard of Wisdom] and [Lava Arrows] and [Mark of Rodgort] to do MASSIVE FIRE DOMAGE!!!!1!!!! IMNBA!!!!!
lol.
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon
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Quote: I suppose that, as far as providing party-wide defenses and moderate damage is concerned, Paragons do it better than anyone else. You just negated your previous statemate. However, the fact that Paragons provide party-wise defense in addition to significant damage is already pushing the boundary,
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But since they don't really kill anything, I don't see how they're broken.
With the rather cookie-cutter imbagon build, you're spamming two attack skills on charge, averaging a nice ~35-45 DPS, in addition to maintaining ~82% damage reduction on the team, not to mention placing Ebon Battle Standard of Honor to add an additional chunk of damage. You doing the jobs of several characters as well as or better than they and you can do it quite easily. Quote:
I lol'd. Paras have the same armor as warrior. After [aggressive refrain] goes up paras have lower armor.
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I'm surprised no one's mentioned Blazing Spear, which can be spammed pretty often with Focused Anger. At 15 spear master, it's a 67+ dmg attack if you count the burning. Then you got Merciless spear that can be used to spam Deep Wound on everything. The fact that Paragons can stand in place and attack by range means less time running from target to target, which actually is also a DPS improvement in a way. I'm really not sure where you're getting the idea that Paragons "can't kill". Is your Spear mastery at 9 er somethin? Quote: Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass Dragon Slash war simply cant be beat on any dps from a melee class cept for maybe a moebius+db sin hitting a mob of 3+. With or without a mob, Sin will win each time. They'll win even more when you start fighting lvl20+ stuff, and even more when they're hitting bunched up groups. Quote:
And you have a Paragon, with SY as the only adrenal skill with AR being a one-time cast. Paragons also have the same armour. By the way, I believe 14 spear mastery > 12 spear mastery, aswell as the infinite energy.
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Ranged sword-like DPS > melee sword like DPS. Your position isn't determined by your enemy as a Paragon.
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Originally Posted by Cathode
At 15 spear master, it's a 67+ dmg attack if you count the burning
I've reached about 70+ at 12 spear to be honest, with Blazing Spear ofcourse. How I know? I recently ran a D/P Blindbot for GvG.
Div
Paragons autoattacking do more damage than flare spammers. That dispels all disbeliefs of paragons not doing damage, hopefully.
Monk Gsb
people should realy use there brains moar and take [flail] instead of [aggressive refrain] then drop [anthem of flame] for somthing moar usefull like motivation party heals rawr i r gud ja ?
this is better cause in pve monsters dont kite, an imbagon dont need to kite from monsters cause of the massive armour, you have no [aggressive refrain] so no cracked so even moar armour, and party heals + a bit of dmg... aka. massive dps. you brokeded guildwars.
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Monk Gsb
/snip
The point of [aggressive refrain]: boost adren build
[flail] notsomuch lrn2[save yourselves] btw gogo tank attitude
Shaz
Who said you need Anthem of Flame to run imbagon? You don't want to waste time with chants when running imbagon anyway, that cut into your adrenaline gain time, so no need for motivation chant, etc. Unless you have quite high kurzick/luxon rank. And Anthem of Flame is far from useless. AR is good, use it.
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