Guild Wars Depression - Solutions?

you can use circumstantial evidence: GW prophecies effectively lacked any endgame content, with very well developed pvp system right off the bat. GW factions has pvp interwoven with the storyline.

whatever happened since then, GW was designed with a pvp-based endgame in mind. there is nothing you can say against that.

or of course, you can search up a particular video interview where an anet dev specifically said that GW's endgame is pvp.

and if you still don't believe me, then you can look at the top gvg'ers these days. they are amongst the richest players in the game, without doing much pve at all. a game's endgame rewards those who play the game like it should. it should be no surprise that pvp'ers are getting rather rich these days because of it.

i agreed with you up until "gold is very easy to come by through normal play", because unless you farm a particular material or object worth value, then SELL it, there is no form of hard, untouched gold in this game, minus maybe brain numbing raptor farming. otherwise, you're forced to merch, or sell to the severely missing consumer, who is only willing to pay for what they want, seeing as this game has nothing to offer that we need.

fair enough, but you can't deny that anet failed to push the pvp spectrum how they initially planned it. sure, the top tier of gvg'ers are some of the most wealthy, but look at the massive gap in what's "rich" and whats not.

snow bunny said something that made me laugh in this thread. "We're all walking around in FoW armor with chaos gloves.

OBVIOUSLY WE'RE ALL POOR RIGHT???????", and tbh, the funny thing about this is yes, you are poor. compare my 5 stacks of ecto, and 15+ tormented weapons to the panda and kanaxai traders, and im so poor, i could barely express a tenth of what they own. is that balance? is that fair? because im sure a lot of others would say no.

ps, im all for pvp, and moreso pvp as the main form of endgame, im simply expressing views in the form of a general pve only player, seeing as it seems very few understand the place at which they stand in these matters.

lol Toxage you tell em. But, while it makes it easier for a portion of the players to get items they want, it also makes it boring for those that already have ALL of them. It makes the game really only for new players and pretty much says welp you got your 100hrs plus of playtime...tough now no more content for gew.

its great that new players can jump in and play the game right off the bat, but hell, gws has ALWAYS had that. players shouldnt be able to run in and have Obsidian and 500 ecto right off the bat, but at the same time, "rich" players shouldnt be able to horde all of the games prized items and money stuck in a 1% of players spectrum.

well, you'll just have to take a step back and ask yourself: "does it really MATTER that a tiny minority of players a hoarding all of these items?"

i did a while back, and i came to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter. those items they are so desperately trying to hoard mean absolutely nothing in the end. sure they MIGHT receive some silly little bonus in GW2, but i trust anet to ensure such bonuses will mean nothing in the long run also. rare minipets mean nothing to me, especially since my mini devourer will easily devour them all (haha).

until those items actually give those players a distinctive advantage over the rest of us, there's really no need to worry.

The GW economy is already dead, no point in trying to ressurrect it now.

When was the last time you played through missions and didn't spend anything on unnecessary items(15k armor, rare weapons, etc.)? With free treasures in NF, merching white drops, salvaging/selling the occasional rare, and receiving gold from missions/quests, it's easy to save up quite a bit of gold. The average casual player who plays with parties and doesn't solo has more ways to obtain gold than his counterpart two or three years ago.

i whole heartedly agree with you on that too, Moriz, but one thing to really consider is the fact that what that small percent control IS the entire endgame/highend form of vanity in the game. sure, Obsidian armor is ok (old form of vanity?), and tormented weapons are almost a dime a dozen, but where are the conversation pieces? the "whoa, where'd ya' get that mr?" items? they don't exist tbh, and i think that's where anet needs to step in. Make some bosses harder, give them some cool skins, or maybe even a boss that drops parts to a puzzle for a green or armor or something, who knows.. i know anet doesn't have a clue though

other than the Treasure chest that most people either don't know about, or care to remember, there isn't anything you listed that we didn't have in proph 3 years ago with zero lootscaling. Btw, the casual player rarely plays much of HM, and in that light, even less of "highend" pve, meaning the cashflow is even less than average for a player such as you and i to achieve while playing through in say, HM EotN. Most players never break 20k ever, meaning they're view of the game is that of a very skewed, uncomfortable playstyle.

Honestly this thread has no where to go.

It has already been announced that GW2 is the next step; a lack of new things to achieve in the GW1 economy, while coupled with the effect of time's continual passage simply means that things will continue to devalue until worthlessness. I project all GW1 items will reach this level of value approximately one year before GW2 release, assuming the current decay only remains constant or gets worse.

If you are so stuck in your Guild Wars dream world that you cannot grasp the concept of a game dying, then consider for a moment the following real-world example:

It is announced that all production on vehicles that run on tires will be halted by 2010 due to the invention of the flying car. Not only that, but this flying car runs on banana peels instead of gasoline. It is only logical and natural that all tire-using vehicles, tires, and gasoline will imediately lose some of their value, and that they will continue to lose this value at a constant rate until they are all replaced by the newer, better product; by the time of replacement (but usually some time before this, though this is dependant on advertising and hype), the product being replaced has reached a value of 0.

Your character is the car.
Your armor, titles, weapons, or any other in-game achievements are the tires on your car.
Your wealth, whether it be ectos or gold, is the gasoline that runs your car.

When Guild Wars 2 is released (that is to say, when they release the flying cars), it is expected that Guild Wars 1 (that is, your car, it's tires, and all the gas you have stocked up) will have little value other than the sentimental kind...

ANet have done more to preserve this sentimental value than Ford or Chevy would I'd say; you can complain that the Hall of Monuments isn't perfect yet, but before they can promise you what will show up in GW2 they have to make GW2.

I myself don't play HM in any campaign, have never had over 100k in storage, and don't participate in high end anything. The last time I played through Factions/NF with native characters through the campaigns in normal mode I ended up with quite a large chunk of cash as long as I didn't blow it on anything unnecessary. Loot scaling hasn't changed anything for these players so it has little to nothing to do with their income.

Thread Winner Sha Noran

im not even going to explain how the mindset of saving money is obviously going to benefit you with money in your example, but alas, scaling and lack of player to player products worth selling in gws does directly affect the economy.


@ Sha, you're right, and i totally agree, but at the same time, the "give it up, wait for gws2" mentality isn't what someone who bought the game yesterday is going to want to hear. it may be ok for us vets, but you have to think of others sometimes too.

If everything is worthless, then why should players care about getting "high-end" items?

So tell me then, how is gold not easy to come by then with the new campaigns? Not having enough money to purchase those high end 100k + Xe items does not mean money is hard to earn.

money for what? you said you never have had more than 100k right? can you afford the 300+ armors i have? or just my obsidian? or what about even one of my 3 voltaics? no, you couldn't, and unless you just farmed yourself into oblivion, you couldn't. (this isn't bragging, or a personal attack, seriously) and to me, thats not fair, because you're legitimately playing the game that you payed for, yet you have nearly no opportunity to afford the things that keep the game "interesting".. hell.. neither can i.. i'll never have a panda, or a kanaxai, or anything like that (NOT saying you, or i even WANT those items, this is totally just an example). this is similar to the elitism of pvp, and tbh, its something that shouldnt exist in a game like gws. at least thats what they told us...

the economy needs a stimulant.. something worth while, something worth our interest, time, and most of all.. money. something to get us players to start trading again (note, this something is more of a something*s*).

Solution:

Remind yourself that gold/loot/trading were never the main focus of the game.

i agree, but the average player doesn't, nor even knows that that's the case. to most, this game is a mixed subject, capable of multiple avenues of gameplay, as most MMO's are. (and the dispute of "gws isn't an MMO" is not welcomed atm)

imho, the game shouldn't "cater" to any particular aspect of the game, but instead balance all non time-based instances and scenarios, so that the game remains playable in all forms.

Oh no, it does. See that big concrete barrier? This thread is driving directly into said barrier at about 90 MPH, and the airbags are broken.

This is delation based on too much supply, lack of demand. You can't have a depression in an economy based on such simple principles.

Driving? Felt more like falling.

my question is, why do people like you feel the need to interrupt a conversation? isn't it possible to discuss something you can't control, can't even affect, and probably won't change, just for the sake of discussion? I'm doing homework, and would like to converse about the game i like to play for fun, whether or not it has any real meaning in life, because i choose to do so. what right do you have to decide whether or not that's "bad"? obviously we find interest in it, and can openly express our feelings about that.

people that have no influence or position in politics talk about it all the time, but do they have any direct feed or affect on the matters at hand? no, so go troll something else please.

I described people and super economys? If you mean solo farmers are people then I guess I did. Come to think of it I solo farm quite a bit so i guess I am a person too I think the OP's main point was he wants items to go up in value. An end to loot scaling would make things cost more wouldn't it? In an open discussion like Riverside people state their opinions and telling them to "STOP plugging" is a waste of keystrokes.

Oh and bots will always be with us... I don't think "LS" did anything but increase their numbers. The thing that I noticed hit the Bots hard was ANET banning accounts with Large transfers of gold and blocking IP address's from known Botting sources.

This thread is getting quite hostile! hehe

Carry on... Carry on... nothing to see here... Move along.

I certainly do not partake in such a mentality, as evidenced by my continued participation in Guild Wars discussion here on Guru. I simply meant to show that the ruined economy is an effect and not a cause; if you would like to fix the economy, the best way is to start somewhere else besides the actual value of things in your economic environment. For example, solving unemployment (patching the game to allow PUGing for all classes with greater ease) would be a greater boon than releasing new models of the same cars every year (new weapon skins).

never once did i say that the views i expressed here are my entire views on how to fix the economy, but simply my takes on the value of gold atm. honestly, if you read my other post that i make in tons of other threads, im all about skill balance and the opening of new playstyles thanks to a large skill pool.

you're talking to a guy who plays mostly mesmer in pve, so trust me, this is just the tip of the ice berg as far as im concerned about balancing the game :P

Why are you concerned to begin with? You have Obsidian armor on your avatar which I'm guessing is your warrior. I'm confused why you're even bothered about how much a green is worth. Anyway, almost every problem with the economy was because of the ability to solo farm so much.

it amazes me that people actually complain about this.

Suddenly I'm imagining a world where all those banana republics people laugh at today have formed the new OPEC...

There is alway a limited small number of items worth loads, and tons of items worth nothing. Nothing has changed at all.

Either Zoloft or an hero.

Pick one and your depression problems are solved.

move the monsters around :P~

I have no problem with gold deflation. But it's a normal thing that there are less and more expensive things. Some people have less money and some people have a crapload. All thanks to capitalism.

I guess my Prozac is working - since everything that the current depression is giving me is a smile on my face.

You suddenly understand the thread differently when you correct the thread title:

Guild Wars PLAYERS' Depression - Solutions?

Which is not necessarily a bad thing - assuming you're driving a DeLorean...

The Guild Wars "economy" (using the term loosely, all things considered) suffers from several things at once:

1. The MMO Syndrome. No matter how rare, new, or powerful, any item that is obtainable as a result of gameplay will eventually lose value. This is a result of a simple process: game age = more item drops = more items obtained = more people choosing not to keep the items for themselves = more items for sale = price drop to ensure the items are sold. Farming accelerates this process, random drops slow it down, but nothing can stop it simply because MMOs and MMO-like random-drop games are designed this way.

2. The Balance Syndrome. In gear-based games, items often scale with the characters, sometimes even requiring characters to be of a certain level to function. An item that a character has "grown out of" can still hold some value to lower-level characters, and the fact that players keep advancing characters and searching for more powerful gear ensures that there is always a "secondary market" for "used" items - assuming, of course, a steady stream of new characters that will purchase the "low-level" gear.

Guild Wars does not have this mechanism in place (by design!) due to the need for PvP balance. On one hand, this is great for the game: everyone is on an equal footing. On another, this is bad for item value: all ("maxed") items have the same functionality, which essentially means a character can be outfitted with end-game gear right out of the gate. This removes the "need" for improving character gear, which in turn reduces the incentives for in-game transactions.

3. The Unstable Equilibrium. The way Guild Wars attempts to solve market saturation - the flood of "useless" maxed items (see Balance) which reach the market with ever-increasing frequency (see MMO) - is with item destruction, specifically customization. A customized item cannot lose this status, and while such an item does confer a bonus on the character (as an incentive to have the player remove it from the market), it cannot be used by any other character (which destroys its trade value, effectively taking it off the market).

The idea is sound, but the problem creeps up due to drop rates, farming, and population size - all of which contribute to the MMO syndrome. If the rate at which the items reach the market (due to specifically farming, but also the other factors) is greater than the rate at which items are destroyed, item prices will drop at a rate directly proportional to how easy the item is to obtain. If, on the other hand, the items are being removed from the game at a faster rate than they are introduced into the game economy, item prices will remain high. This is basic supply-and-demand economics, but the mechanisms of item creation and destruction is the reason the economic theory applies.

Within these constraints, there is very little that can be done to "fix the economy:"

1. Decelerate item creation. If an item drops less frequently, the rate at which it reaches the market will decrease - both due to lower drop rate and due to players "giving up" on activities that no longer result in "easy money." If the rate of item creation dips below that of item destruction, prices will rise. (Simple supply and demand, nothing more.)

The obvious problem is the "player giving up" part. People quit all the time, but a sudden drop in player activity (say, a greatly reduced amount of loads of a specific zone or uses of a specific skill) coupled with negative feedback (even if it takes the form of "forum QQs") may not be perceived by the game's designers as a good thing. (See: ANet's reasoning on not nerfing Ursan Blessing.)

2. Accelerate item destruction. "Item sinks" that take an item "out of circulation" in addition to customization could increase the price of the item. Less items on the market = people willing to pay more just to get the item. (Again, simple supply and demand.)

The problem here is that "item sinks" in Guild Wars are based on incentives. Customization provides a tangible damage boost, something that matters greatly for PvP and which makes the item more valuable in specific situations. Items entered into the Hall of Monuments are supposed to provide benefits in Guild Wars 2, but this alone may not be a tangible enough incentive for most Guild Wars players to fill up their Halls and drive up prices for these specific items - at least not until the actual benefits are announced. Chaos gloves may be desirable due to being a relatively new "item sink" for Globs of Ectoplasm, but they require the player both to own GWEN and actually like the purely cosmetic armor, neither of which is as certain as the 20% damage bonus for customization.

Since #1 is largely not an option, #2 is pretty much the only thing ANet can do. Of course, there are many ways to go about implementing "item sinks," which include but are not limited to...

...making a specific slot for every green item in the Hall of Monuments, which would revitalize green item farming, increase the value of endgame rewards, and give insane completionists one more thing to obsess about;

...stealing a page from their old employer's playbook and implementing an "Asuran Forge," where X random rare items can be turned into 1 random rare item a-la Horadric Cube from Diablo 2, which would increase the value of rare items and give farmers and gamblers more incentive to play the game;

...introducing the "faction decay" mechanic into the Material Traders' algorithms and making a certain percentage of their stock "vanish" daily, based on how much of each specific crafting material is currently available for purchase, which would drive up the cost of crafting materials across the board - depending, of course, on what is set as the "0% decay" max price;

...turning the Hall of Monuments into an actual storage for items, thereby increasing the value of all items that can be stored in the Hall for the storage-hungry gamers.

There, that would do it. Now shoo, clueless economic QQers

As far as I'm concerned - you can make that two months. Since yesterday, when a chest finally decided to drop me req 9 canthan Sickle, there's no item in this game I "have to" or "need to" have.

I like the idea of something to do with the greens, so we can get rid of them for some profit.

Other than that... how to fix the guild wars economy.. hmmm... Elect Obama to GW universal president! He'll fix anything, He's Obama!

It was all going to happen eventually. Greens dont get removed from gw unless someone just destroys it or sells it to a merchant which will not happen that often. You cant complain about greens being a low price as when they were released you could have figured that they will always drop and their amount would never drop therefor their price will decrease.

Same goes with ecto, it keeps dropping and people only want so many fow sets so they hold on to their ecto and it just gets sold around. The amount of ecto only increases between the people and never goes back to the NPC's so its price will go down.

Solutions...?

Hm...

Linsey Murdock?

All I want is simple:
- No grind.
- No regrets.
- No pushing.
- Equitable and square content in all campaigns, adding radioactivity to the content of older campaigns.
- New stuff once in a while.

And all done.

There is a problem with the economy? I sell everthing to the merchant or give it away, as is. I lead a very closed-off life in GW just my guildies and me. It works out rather well, they give me/help me out with things I am doing and in return I help them out/give things to them. I just sold a bunch of greens to the merch as well, after asking if anyone in guild could use them. I could care less if ecto, shards, rubies, ect. were at 10 gold at the trader. It makes no difference to me or my guildies. lol You say you have an item worth xxxx ectos? I say you have an item worth what the merch will pay or the next fool with large quanities of gold, fortunatly for you the later is growing. Which is not a depression by anymeans......

There is no GW Depression. Sure ectos are down, but they are not the standard game currency. The buying power of the real currency (gold ) is greater than ever before. There is some deflation in low tier items, but they were always low teir because they have an unlimited supply and can be readily farmed by any Tom , Dick or Harry. That is just supply out pacing demand, nothing broken there. Now these days rare items are doing just fine. These truly rare things are more achievement + luck based and can't be farmed as easily. I'd have to say overall the economy is healthy and working as intended.

i havent participated in this farce since 06, the last time i traded with a human player i exchanged the minipet extras i had for same year equivalents.

gold is for merchants, barter for humans and lol at you "economists".

yeah, what Frill said.