Spawning power attr missed some impotant ritualist role

With AwS + an attunement you basically can be an energy-free nuker. Still you don't see many of those, simply because Elementalists are just better at it.
But indeed if the reduction would only apply to Binding Rituals, Weapon spells and Item spells that would be a good improvement already.

I still like one of these and I think it would go nicely with a suggestion made by Sante Kelm for a Summoner's Insignia here

I am guessing it says:
"It's not causing a problem so it must be fine!"

Or possibly "it's not causing a problem so its less important than things that are."

Unless it could be used to solve a problem...

Or it could be, "Ritualists are a minority among the player base and even we didn't understand their role."

/signed for any buff to spawning power. By far the weakest primary attribute.

I don't like the 'expertise' idea, even if it would be implemented AWS would be nerfed, logically.

The spirit "copy" is something I do like. But think about it.
[Pain]@10 110sec
[Bloodsong]@10 110sec
[Vampirism]@10 150sec
Spawning@ 12- max copies per spirit @12 = 3

That would mean you can -with great easy- maintain 9 spirit's
Throw in [painful bond]+[boon of creation]+[summon spirits] and you will rule.
Logically [painful bond] will be nerfed

So I do suggest a max number of total spirits of 6-8?

I also like the e-regen idea

Spawning should logically increase the speed at which spirits are summoned. Seeing as Fast Casting doesn't effect binding rituals, there is only one skill in the entire game that increases the speed at which a binding ritual is executed (which happens to be an elite and not all that great), and all binding rituals have a 2 to 5 second casting time, essentially making them impossible to cast in the vicinity of an interupter... Even Ritualists aren't good at being Ritualists.

On top of this some form of armor/resistance to spirits would be helpful. For the most part spirits are below level 13 (Except Rejuvenation, which can hit 16), and because of this have insanely week armor allowing them, for the most part, to be easily taken down.

Some sort of boost to having to carry around an item would be helpful, although, I'd like to mention that there is an insignia that gives you extra armor while holding something. Combine that with the extra armor that certain item spells give you... A boost to armor when holding something linked to Spawning could prove a disastrous thing. Saw someone mention that, thought I'd point out the folly of it. Increasing max energy while holding an item would be effective, to balance out the lost energy for not having a focus/staff.

/Signed. A boost would make Ritualists a more attractive class to play.

Hey, would you look at that!
I already bitched in this thread!
I sure do get around! (Well in better ways also ... )

So yeah, I am still for it!

I'd like to see a buff as well.

/signed.

yup, me too. Spawning power is just really really bad.

It's quite useless. Indeed.
Even a minor fix of extra Armour/higer levels for spirits would improve it.

/signed
SP needs some buff, the weakest primary atrib ever.
I like idea of gaining energy from dieing spirits - it would be soul reaping for rits.
Also, better armor/hp for spirits for every rank in SP seems fine, and balanced.

i disagree with anything having to do with the change in energy cost/regen/gain/anything with energy. soul reaping and expertise (another thread on guru that was highly debated) came to a consensus that anything having to do with energy management (gain/redux) was a bad idea. someone will find a way to abuse it creating a new gimmic which would lead to more skills being nerfed or whatever. no changing energy anything. with that said...

rits are the jack of all trades. resto's numbers are bigger than healing spells because of divine favor. they can summon rangeresque spirits. they can deal elemental damage similar to an elementalist. if you change energy tools, resto may overtake healing prayer monks? since spirits arent the trend in pvp, we should look elsewhere. im not really sure what to suggest. the infrastructure is there for something similar to leadership upon creation of a spirit or effect of a shout/item spell drop. since i dont believe it should be energy related perhaps health gain or damage dealt? perhaps like explosive growth for dropping an item? perhaps something like whatever the deldrimor title track bonus is for destroyers, have that for rits. whenever you drop an item spell or create a spirit, you steal 15 or so health from foes within the radius of effect?

this probably isnt the solution, but i believe the solution lies not with tweaking the energy management in any way.

I was thinking about making spirits much more resistant to dmg unless targets are under weapons spells.

About spawning power, i have few ideas:
#1 - bonus energy/health regen for about 15s after summoning creature
#2 - energy/health GAIN after summoning creature
#3 - energy gain after casting weapon spell
#4 - health/armor/energy/hct/hsr/whatever bonus for holding ashes
<maybe i just should shut up and play my necro...>.<>
anyway
ritualists are best minions bombers, but their primary attribute is exactly opposite of this tactic, also communing should not require investing 12+ points in SP to make it 'effective'
/sign for SP buff/rework



ps. buff armor of unfeeling and all THREE cummuning elites

Edit: communing*

IMO Spawning power should be like this :" The present description and for each point of SP your rituals activate 4% faster and you gain 1 energy for each 3 ranks of SP when you cast a weapon spell".
Or just make spirits more tougher.

seriously, with how people say expertise and soul reaping arent balanced, DO NOT have SP have anything to do with energy. maybe base damage redux while activating skills? because rits have so many different uses heals/wep spells/spirits the secondary should be something universally useful. perhaps too much rethinking for gw1?

The SP 'expertise' idea could work [Attuned Was Songkai] would be nerfed.
If its done the reduction could be 1point sp= 2% less cost so @12SP 24% less Energy.
The question would be, would it also effect (binding)rituals?

I personally don't like the SP 'soul reaping' idea it's to easy to abuse: take 3 Rit's and skills like [Feast of Souls]+[Ritual Lord]+bunch of spirits=infinite energy on Rit's.

I do like the copy of 1 kind of spirits idea but the total of all spirit's per player should be maxed out the.


The Item spell fixed don't appeal to me either. IMO item spells are fine.
A-net should fix what a Rit's most unique aspect: Spirit's

/signed Spawning power needs to be buffed or there is no point to it. Any other class can be a just as good spirit spammer with no need for spawning power.

Ritualists are awesome, but the poor benefit of SP isn't fair for them.

I'm in for the multiple spirits idea. I mean, why not?

In PvP, spirits die or are just pwnd in few seconds by AoE.

In PvE, it could mean actually using a Ritualist to prepare a nice bombardment of mobs before luring them. Of course, in both pvp and pve it's ritualist and pve-only spirits. Having 5 Frozen Soils would be... strange. Or 5 Lifes. Also, this would buff some of the under-used elites like Spirit Channeling or Clamor of Souls.

Or just the -energy for 0, 4, 8, 12 and 16 spawning power.

upon further consideration, spawning power, although at first glance of what it does seems underpowered, it really isnt. with the increase of weapon spell durations and summoned creatures health bonuses, this is a very powerful tool. keep in mind that weapon spells cannot be removed, only interrupted on cast. VERY powerful. wep of warding saw much rework after the power was shown. the increase in summons health is pretty nice also. rits have both offensive and defensive skills in their arsenal. they are very versatile. item spells, though they deprive one of the use of wep mods/bonuses, are still carried no? this means the benefit outweighs the loss, correct? plus with the hidden health/energy of some wep sets, you can save yourself grief later.

although spawning power seems to be of little significance, the 'weakness' is what keeps the game balance. because rits are so versatile and can do so many things, any tweak could drastically shift the balance of the game. rits can do many things well, but nothing exceptional. therefore spawning needs to stay 'weak.'

The only thing that really makes Ritualists stand out in PvP is the runes and the profession setup. Little to no attribution is required for Rend or Enfeeble, and Dash is the best running skill you can use. Coupled with powerful party heals and unstrippable Guardians with decently strong heals aswell as decent offensive options all in the same bar, you could say that is what's keeping Ritualists around. And put it this way, what kind of idiot would run an A/Rt Flagrunner over the more powerful Rt/A one?

Really, the only thing keeping them around is profession setups.

While I agree that at current spawning does have some useful bonuses, namely the weapon spell duration which is very useful because as you've said weapon spells are very powerful due to their unstrippable nature.

However the summoned creature health bonus is rather pathetic. This is due in large part to the fact that most of the summoned creatures that should be gaining the biggest benefit from this are nerfed to the point of unusable (namely spirits that sac health when their effect is triggered).

For the sake of argument lets say you have 16 spawning and 15 communing and use [displacement]

now this spirit will be level 10 and with that rank of spawning power it will have 410 health. In it's current state the spirit sacs 60 health each time it blocks for a party member. That's a total of 7 blocks the spirit can make before it dies not counting any damage the spirit may itself take during it's brief lifespan.

Even with high spawning these sacing defensive (or in the case of [wanderlust] offensive) spirits are simply far to much trouble for their worth.

On the flipside necromancer minions gain a much better effect from the increased health, however giving the minions increased health is a rather moot point since you won't be able to have as many minions (meaning they won't be able to form as strong of a "minion wall") and they will be of a lower level than a necro's, dealing less damage and taking more from level based sources. The main use of a Ritualist and Minions has been minion bombing, which is both unwieldy and also dosen't gain a benefit from increased minion health. Again rendering spawning's bonus rather useless.

I think both spirits and Spawning power needs serious work.

For the spirits give them increased either health, armor or both additionally defensive spirits need some SERIOUS buffs (my math with displacement illustrates just how horrid they've gotten).

For spawning power specifically i think it should provide a bonus for all 3 of the ritualists unique abilities. I like the idea of reducing ritual casting time (2-5 seconds for each spirit makes spirit spamming horrendously slow even if you can bring spirits wtih you in pve), I'd say leave the weapon spell lengthening effect and provide a bonus for holding an item as well, perhaps increased energy (to offset the lack of a weapon, additionally it would make [mighty was vorizun] and [empowerment] provide useful bonuses instead of just offsetting a negative)

I'm not too keen on the energy ideas for spawning, as rits have always had very useful energy management skills the cost of rituals and spells has never really been an issue as much as the actual affect of said rituals and the speed at which they can be cast.

just my thoughts on the situation.

The only reason to use minion's on a RT is in combo with [boon of creation][Spirit's Gift][Explosive Growth].
Increase armor level with SP will help that.
The multi spirit idea couldn't solve this.

I'm in for armor level, or spirit level. Which will increase both armor and health.

It could work, but it would result in nerfs for [boon of creation][Attuned Was Songkai] and more.

I really like the multi spirit idea, but i'm not sure how to work it out.
3x[pain] ok but what about [Recuperation]+[ritual lord] 6hp regen?
or [life]+[ritual lord] 120 hp each 10 sec?

And what if you have 2 rit's in a party?
RT-a can have 3 copies
RT-b can have 1 copy
What would happen here? 4x same spirit?

Just add a "The party can only have one spirit of this kind active within spirit range." to the problematic spirits' descriptions.
And in PvP - this can be added to all spirits' descriptions.

EDIT:
Ohh, this just hit me!
"For each rank in spawning power you gain the ability to control an additional binding ritual and for each 2 ranks in spawning you gain the ability to control an additional concurrent binding ritual."
Hopefully that made sense - if it didn't it means the following:
1. For each rank in SP you gain the ability to have one spirit under your control. This means that players with 0 in SP can only have ONE (I think one would be much better then 0 since we don't want to completely limit the spirit use to ritualists only) binding ritual on the playing field. This means that a secondary ritualist can only control ONE spirit - regardless of how many they bring e.g. a necro will only be able to use Recovery but not a second spirit (Life for instance) at the SAME TIME! A nerf to spirit use without an investment into SP. Why should the necros have all the fun?
2. At the same time - for each 2 ranks in SP - the player gains the ability to control a copy of a spirit they have (unless the spirit can only exist in one version - as stated above).

This then means:
A player with 10 in SP is able to run around with 11 spirits.
BUT since you are limited by the second rule - this means you can only have 5 spirits of the same kind - e.g. 5 Pains. To fill up the number of allowed spirits (in this case 11) one must bring additional spirits. So - for example - 5 Pains and 5 Bloodsongs (if one is able to summon them all before the first one dies).
This would force the player to consider the trade-off - does he bring more spirits and run around with a max number of spirits or will he bring only one or two spirits and possibly not even achieve the max number of spirits he can run around with (because of the recharge of the spirits).

That's why you make sure all spirit spammers on the team equip different types other wise having the same spirits makes em useless.

of course this would disclude ranger spirits i hope

I can't see any reason for "discluding" ranger spirits... Presumably the effect is applied only once in the area the spirit covers. So even if there are multiple EoE you only take the damage once. Just like two winters wouldn't cause double cold damage. The difference with ritualist spirits is that they directly interact with the players rather than creating and environmental effect.

"Including" ranger spirits in such a way would increase the usefulness and cross-professional use of the ritualist.

as shadowmere mentioned, displacement is a very powerful tool. would you really want this skill maintainable for longer than it lasts in the current state? certain skills make displacement more useful (rit lord, wep of quickening, reclaim essence, soul twisting) all are elite because displacement can be that powerful. therefore i dont believe that balancing the primary attribute around that one skill is a meaningful point. as for wanderlust, kds are powerful also.

I was talking about ONE person having 5 frozen soils or 5 lifes.

5 frozen soils - gimmicks in heaven, because they can just put 5 FS' and surround enemies, rendering their ressurections useless.

5 lifes = crapload of health. For 5 energy, you get 140 health if it survives the whole duration. And for 25 energy, you can get 5x140 health = 700. Nice, no spell can beat that.

And that's AoE.

I do not know why I didn't see this thread when it was created. For those who don't want to read my opinions on already stated ideas, scroll to the bottom of my long winded post.

Anyways, reading through the thread:

I agree with 1,2 and 4. 3 not so much because of [Boon of Creation] would give waaay to much energy with that. However, Ritualists do need better energy management.

1 and 2 have to be limited to specific item spells. Some item spells have long enough durations and can be maintained, and some item spells have strong enough dropping effects. 3 would be a good energy management for Ritualists, perhaps link that to Spawning Power (gives energy same proportion as Critical Strikes for Assassins). 4 is good as well as you're stuck with whatever energy the item and your armor gives you.

2, no because the only real way to make that occur is giving the one the weapon spell is casted on energy. 2, only if the above forms of energy management you proposed are not affected. Weapon Spells are good enough imo, what is needed is a way to strip them (as few ways as it is to give cracked armor).


While creating spirits is unneeded because the more common spirits used cost 5 energy which is already regained. Spawning Power does need a boost, that is point blank obvious. And I go with giving energy management to Spawning Power in the form I said above. That is, having a 0...2...3 scale like the Assassin's Critical Strikes for created Item Spells. As they are not spammed (usually) and having it scaled would prevent secondary abuse.

1. Nah, if you want armor while holding an item, use [Mighty Was Vorizun] or better yet [Protective Was Kaolai], or one of the health adding item spells.

2. Agreed for creating, with the scale I mentioned above. I don't agree with upon dropping, unless it's within the spell's effect.

3. Why link that to the primary? Even with 13 Spawning power and a lvl 7 spirit, it can die a couple good hits if not healed.

4. Ehh, I see issues with spammable weapon spells like Weapon of Warding with a perma holding item. But nothing bad.

5. With spirits limited to 1 per type up at a time, I see nothing wrong with this. Just make sure it's limited only to Binding Ritual Spirits, no Nature Spirits or Ghosts.

6. Pointless imo.

1) no, we have Boon of Creation, we don't need a non-skill ability that does a way too similar thing. 2) Again, we have Boon of Creation, and this does the SAME thing. 3) Will be abused with spammable weapon spells. 4) No. Some item spells do that, it will just make them imbalanced then.

While the Weapon Spell is quite fine, Spirits are still underpowered, but not by as much as people make it sound. And the Ritualist profession as a whole needs a better energy management. A little energy boost is where the buff should look at. That or Item Spells.

IMO, Spirit levels should be increased, at least for the saccing spirits. This can be done through SP easily, change it from "has +x% more health" to "gains +0...1...3 more levels" (on a 0...4...12 scale).


Summary of long winded post:
I suggest/agree with the following propositions: (scaling is 0...4...8...13...18 with the attribute)
1) Receive energy when creating an Item Spell on a 0...1...2...3...4
2) Add +0...5...10...15...20 energy when holding an item.
3) Add 0...1...2...3...4 levels to summoned Spirits (used "spirits" to avoid misuse with minions *their levels are high enough in comparison* but gives ranger spirits the boost)
4) Reduce Spirit Casting Time by x%(same scaling as Weapon Spell length addition - 2% every rank)

I think it is a bad idea:
1) Why limit spirit use to Rit'A it's just like adding max number of minions to soul reaping.
2) like I sayed before I like the copy idea but just limit the total number of spirit's to like 6-8 I've tried a build which used 5 spirit's and it was anoying to keep them up.
3) In your example: @14 spawn @10chan @10 communing @10 sunspear. Max 15 spirit's and 7 copies per spirit.
[[email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]][ritual [email protected]][summon spirits][painful [email protected]][boon of [email protected]]=very overpowered and a tad boring

1. Why not?
Why is there an issue with ritualists actually being "ritual lords"?

2. / 3. Otherwise you get something like:
14 chan, 14 spawn
You get multiple Bloodsongs/Vampirisms, while still keeping all the goodies that the ritu offers now - SW, AR.
There needs to be a trade-off - just the way you have shown. You basically wasted your whole bar and you don't have WoW, nor AR, nor SW. Nor do you have points for AP thus eliminating PvE-only skills spammage.
Considering what a AP-channeling ritu can do right now - I don't find your build overpowered, unless going against one baddie at a time.

Having 15 spirit's which do round 20+16 damage per attack is not overpowered ??spirit's attack speed is about 2 sec so ((20+16)*15)/2=270 damage per second. Besides If you count my build has 7 skills so there is room for a splinter/AR.

And if you suggest other skills with it you won't a able to get up 15 spirit's your limit of 15 is almost impossible to have,the only way to reach it is with something similar to what I posted.

6-8 is more then enough.

And that was actually the point - you'd need to work really hard to achieve such a big number of spirits. That's pretty much all the ritu would be doing in that case.
And then compare that to a PvE-skills spammer - especially with the lackluster spirit AI and their fragility - it probably wouldn't end up being as obscene as you painted it out.

It won't be hard to keep it up just boring, constantly casting 3 sec spirits.
precast boon+ritual lord -> spam spirit's -> engage battle summon spirits cast painful bond continue to spam spirit's repeat.
Just don't hope you have to walk far.

Upier's idea is really nice , add a skill that decreases binding ritual activation and I will be very happy.
And another skill would be very nice : Throw Ashes. You throw them at an enemy or ally depending on the item spell so you don't have to walk to him. It would be a nice pve skill.

Of course.
Not hard - just time consuming. You'll pretty much have to spend each available second throwing your hands in the air raising spirits.
Which - tbh - is actually something I like. I get bored of killing things. So I have "guys" on my payroll to do that for me.

Upier admitted he uses a farmbot, or his little brother...
But stil max of 3 copies per spirit is enough which could be linked to SP. And a max of 8 spirits in total. That wouldn't cripple rangers or other proffs to use spirits.
Or increase spirit level's
'for each 2 ranks of spawning power creatures you create (or animate) increases 1 level. And for each rank of spawning power your weapon spells last 2% longer'

Look at necros. Up to 10 additional guys raised from one skill.
3 spirits from one skill doesn't seem like a MM-replacement. It would be better then what we have now, but still miles behind the insanity that is the MM.
What could be interesting though is to simultaneously nerf MMs. That way spirits become comparable. That would be something I'd approve!

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit
That's pretty much the current SP effect. Pretty much the only difference would be the higher spirit AL.

Rit's are not MM replacements. you seem to forget that spirits can do more then minion's, minion's only attack. spirit's heal, protect, buf, debuf and even attack. I'm also talking about Nature rituals.
5x life is insane, it would be nerfed like hell. All those non attack spirit's would be changed. I don't like to see that.
Just raise Level for everything you create.
Higher AL means less damage, but sure you know that.