Fahranur, Orr and the Fissure of Woe

I would like to share some insights of mine, that I believe to be logic and plausible to say the least. It answers two of the most pertinent questions that so far, no one has been able to give a satisfying answer to.

Fahranur, The First City

Fahranur is a city filled with mystery. Though it is undeniably filled with Sunspear markings, it is something rather more than simply a Sunspear structure like the Sunspear Great Hall. Fahranur is the first of all cities, and is therefore very old. It dates from a time when the six gods ruled the Tyrian world. And in a world where faith is important and the presence of the gods is strong, it is only natural that the first building of a civilization is one dedicated to the gods. Fahranur is not just a city, it's a temple. Whether or not it was dedicated to all six gods is irrelevant. What we do know is that it was dedicated to at least one god; Abaddon. Proof of this claim are the remnants of a statue of Abaddon just outside the city, and the presence of the Apocrypha; the inscribed stone that tells the tale of Abaddon and predicts the prophecy of his return. When Fahranur was first built, all of Elona worshipped Abaddon, for in a land of deserts and wasteland, the god of water is a welcome deity...

But times change. After Abaddon was cast out and imprisoned, Elona lost their faith in the "evil and fallen god". They erased all records of him and tried to forget he ever existed. The five old gods were their deities now. But Fahranur continued to exist. A temple still dedicated to a fallen god was dangerous. People were not allowed to enter it, as Abaddon's taint still lingered in its halls. This is why rumours were spread about the evil that wanders in the city, about curses and death. People believed this and no one ever came to Fahranur. It is how Kormir says: "Tales of the forbidden ruins are part of our history. My curiosity and concern made me ignore those warnings."

Fahranur and Orr

As we all know, the Orrians were a peaceful civilization who worshipped all the gods. When the vizier caused the cataclysm and whiped away all of Orr, he used powerful and forbidden spells. These spells were so dark and malicious, that they could not belong to any of the five old gods, and were so powerful that they couldn't belong to any living creature on Tyria. This magic was Abaddon's doing. The vizier had several of these dark magics hidden in the vaults deep below the streets of Arah, but they had to get there. Whether or not the vizier had always been a follower of Abaddon doesn't really matter. He was the king's personal advisor on the occult and arcane. It is therefore plausible to assume he was aware of the outcast god and his history. Or he worshipped the five old gods, but renounced his faith in them when the demon Terick informed him of Abaddon. But as said, how or when he started following Abaddon is irrelevant. What does matter is that he did. And by becoming a loyal follower of the fallen god, he would take part in the grand plan that would bring back Abaddon. The prophecy of Nightfall...

To begin the long chain of events that would finally result in Abaddon's return, the vizier travelled to Fahranur, to acquire the dark magic he needed. Whether the vizier himself travelled to Fahranur or merely sent his minions is again irrelevant. The fact is, that this is the connection between Fahranur and Orr. Fahranur was the ancient temple dedicated to Abaddon to some extent, and the vizier would need Abaddon's power to begin the first stage of the plan. This is evidenced by the fact that Orrian troops still reside in Fahranur.

One particular NPC in the Halls of Chokhin states that Fahranur indeed has a connection to Orr:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Librarian_Gahmir_Lenon

Here is more proof of the fact that Lord Odran and his minions are indeed Orrian:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...800px-Kink.jpg

Lord Odran was apparently one of the vizier's followers. In all likelihood, the vizier gained insights and powerful magic which he took back to Orr. When the time was right, the vizier used the spells he was given and did what was expected from him. It is clearly stated by Terick that the vizier did what Abaddon told him to do: "Abaddon wished for the destruction of Arah." The destruction of Arah and with it, Orr.

Orrian troops in the Fissure of Woe

The destruction the vizier brought about was enormous. Whether he knew the results of his actions were going to be this catastrophic is irrelevant. It is likely he didn’t know, as the demon Terick says he “tricked” the vizier into using the spell. He didn’t actually trick him into using it, he merely failed to mention its power. Abaddon knew the vizier was on his side, but faith is easily broken. Abaddon could not take the risk of losing the vizier, as he needed the vizier to destroy Arah. After all, the vizier’s love for his home Orr might have been greater than his loyalty to Abaddon. He might not have been willing to sacrifice it.

The cataclysm he brought about did not only destroy Orr. It was so powerful it actually transported parts of Orr and even inhabitants to other dimensions. This is evidenced by the fact that the temple of the six gods is now in the realm of torment. It first stood on the shores of the Crystal Sea but was then taken and transported to another realm. Orrian spirits now reside in that same realm. They too were taken from their world and sucked into another. This was the true potential of Abaddon's spell. These things explain why there are Orrian troops in the Fissure of Woe. Orrian buildings and Orrian people were taken from their realm and teleported into another. The Fissure of Woe, like the realm of torment, is another realm. Again, the extent to which this was intentional is uncertain. The fact the temple of the six gods was taken might have been intentional. After all, Abaddon was betrayed and imprisoned by the old gods. It seems fitting he would take that temple, and desecrate and torment it in his own realm. The fact he transported Orrian people might also be intentional, as it is known souls play an important part in Abaddon’s prophecy. Souls are needed to feed the soulweir.

Note: I said that Abaddon was betrayed by the old gods. This is a work in progress and still needs some research, but I have a feeling Abaddon and his Margonite followers really aren't the bad guys here. I will post it in the near future, and it will shed a whole new light on Abaddon and his motives, and other events that took place.

- Aeve Haleheart

Actually i dont think Razakel told him about Abaddon. Khilbron was just part of the plan - Razakel/Terick simply manipulated him into using that magic against the Charr. Abaddon causes the Charr to invade Orr, Terick nudges Khilbron into using forbidden magic as a way to stop their advance hence fulfilling Abaddons wish of Arah being destroyed. Where he became a follower after that is unclear - it may of been long after his death or straight after the Cataclysm.

Of course his little adventure as the Flameseeker would be a +1 to Abaddon.


Wait what? is this supposed to take place during the Prophecies storyline or after it? what is the first stage of the plan? what plan? your not reffering to where Khilbron got the dark magic to cause the Cataclysm i hope.

No he doesnt state it. He says he is writing a paper on its possible connection with the Kings. Gahmir Lenon is actually based on GmrLeon who wrote on things like ancient civilizations. I would think his dialogue is actually reffering to that.

Perhaps GmrLeon himself can post links to a few of his works? (assuming they are still around)

That an Orr Armor dropped from a locked chest is proof? why do they not drop orr armor if thats the case? oh and i know it was a typo but people jump quickly at the use of Odrans name - Its Lord Onrah.


Lord Onrah not to be confused with Lord Odran the Mage. Now looking at what you said it appears your talking about him getting dark magic from Fahranur which would be used in Orrs Destruction.

So.....

- The Charr attacked Orr by suprise. While this attack was happening Terick told Khilbron about dark magic over in Elona that would stop the Charr attack. Khilbron waltzed through the Charr and set sail for Elona. He went into the closed off City whos population had been destroyed by the mysterious Scarab Plague. He found Dark Magic and sailed back to Orr which was still holding off the Charr (so what thats like a week? 2 weeks? a month? Cantha takes a few months to sail to so what would Elona?). The Charr allowed him to enter the city and he used the forbidden magic to destroy the Charr. The magic - has Terick and Abaddon had planned - destroyed Orr killing everyone but Khilbron who became the Lich........

Okay!

...............

Why would the Cataclysm take Orrian people to Balthazars Realm? where is it ever said they are Orrian? what about the Battlefield? if your basing Undead alliegence on skins then Orrians are in Ascalon aswell. Why?

I know you say you will post about it in the future (i look forward to it) but why do you feel Abaddon and the Margonites were not the bad guys? just out of interest.

Uhhh. Proof that the statue is of Abaddon please.

And the fact that there was the Scarab Plague there *and across all Istani* had absolutely nothing about why people left the city and never returned.

Proof that they were peaceful? I never heard of this. The God worshipping is undeniable, but the peaceful? I question that.

Technically, they were not the Viziers, it never states that they belonged to him, it just states that they were in the Catacombs of Orr *not that exact name mind you, but basically thats what it seems they were*.

No proof of Vizier Khilbron traveling to Elona, or sent anyone there. Therefore, there is no connection at this time. I think it is even mentioned in the Prophecies Manual that the ancient Scrolls where in Arah since the time of the Gods, so if they did belong to abaddon, then they were there since the Exodus.

As Free Runner stated, it is not Lord Odran. Odran's origin is unknown but seems to be Tyrian, and he is not an undead. Around 200 years ago, Odran opened portals to the Mists and Rift and explored constant worlds, before he was killed by the ghosts.

the quests Faded Memory and A Fleshy Operation show that the "trick" part was before the reading of the scrolls, so Khilbron did worship Abaddon before the destruction, but how long is unknown.

Umm. It just made the land sink into the water, as stated in the Movement of the World, the Undead Dragon raises the sunken peninsula.

the Temple of the Six Gods was moved into the Realm of Torment around the time of the Exodus and Abaddon's fall, it was not a recent addition. And no where does it state the exact location of where the Temple resided before the Exodus, just says shores of the Crystal Sea *so it would be somewhere bordering the Crystal Desert, probably in a currently unexplorable area.

There are Orrian spirits in the Realm of Torment, but none in the Fissure of Woe. They are simply undead, part of the "Skeleton Army" not the "Orrian Undead Army." They are not the same, they just use the same model.

In all technicality, there is no "bad guys" at first. Abaddon distributed Magic too freely and the other gods did not like it, and when the Gods limited the magic, he got angry and rebeled, which led him to his punishment in the Realm of Torment. Whether or not the Realm of Torment was as it is now, that is, tormenting, is unknown. But, Abaddon was influenced either by his anger or the realm and corrupted just as he later corrupted others.

In other words, it started out as a feud, then it became good vs evil. Menzies and Dhuum are different stories of course.

They were peaceful. When the guilds began feuding they attempted to stay out of their affairs until enemy guilds began fighting in Arah and Orr rose to defend itself. Thats probably when the many different Guild Wars lifted off. Thats still about 60 years before the Cataclysm though.


In the Prophecies manual it states he went deep down into the catacombs beneath Orr and took the scrolls from a warded vault.

Oh and the whole thing was over in less than Twelve Hours according to the Manuscripts. So he would of had no time to grab the scrolls from Elona anyway.

yeah, i agree w/ you free runner,
for starters, i've never heard that vizier followed abbadon, just that he(along w/ shiro) was corrupted by abbadon.
also, why would the margonites + abbadon be the good guys? they killled innocents, corrupted originally good people, wanted to bring about nightfall, according to you indirectly destroyed orr. how can any of that be benificial? there was a reason that abbadon was imprisioned-he was dangerous.

I'd like to thank Free Runner for pointing out several obvious things to Azazel. It saves me the effort.

I would like to ignore that.

I never said that couldn't be a reason. But Kormir clearly talks about "tales of the forbidden ruins". The fact that the Scarab Plague commenced in Fahranur has absolutely no relevance. The Scarab eggs were somehow corrupted, and were ingested by humans with their food. The danger lies with the scarabs, and not with Fahranur. And even still, the fact that the Scarab eggs were somehow corrupted and that it started in Fahranur makes it all the more interesting. The corruption could in that case be proof that Fahranur was dedicated to Abaddon, and that his taint caused the eggs to be corrupted.

But far more important, is that Kormir uses the word "tales". The Scarab Plague is a fact and a known event. Tales are stories of uncertain authenticity, they are vague, mythical. The Scarab Plague would most definitely be described otherwise, so clearly Kormir is talking about other reasons why Fahranur is forbidden...

No, it also made the land sink into the ocean. If the cataclysm only destroyed Orr and merely let it sink, then how do you explain the Orrian spirits inside the realm of torment? They couldn't have gotten there in a natural way. When a creature dies, it passes on into the mists. These people clearly didn't. Why? *poof* There comes my theory again. People were killed and their souls were sucked into Abaddon's realm.

Yes, and that unexplorable area is Orr. I would take another look at the map of Tyria if I were you. The Crystal Sea would be the current Crystal Desert and therefore a piece of the shores would include Orrian territory. Or perhaps I should post a picture in my next post? Just to clarify...

Please give Anet some credit. Tell me this: why would Anet create an entire civilization, give its people unique clothing and appearances, only to later on use those same models for an entirely different class or species? They're not that lazy. And of course they're not going to clearly state that the undead in FoW are orrian. That would be too easy and it would destroy all the fun for those of us interested in lore. Because this is the lore forum, right? I thought this was the place where one could stretch his mind and bend his imagination a bit. You can't say that these undead are "simply undead", when they have the exact same look as Orrians do. There's something rather more then meets the eye.

Right, the classic story. Here in what you said, is the beginning of my theory that Abaddon is the victim.

I don't see how it could not be.

No. This is where my theory and the "generally accepted version" are different. The classic story says that the vizier turned to his dark and forbidden magic as an act of desperation. It was never planned beforehand to use them. But I believe that the vizier had it all figured out. He knew exactly where and when to use his spells. Like Free Runner said, Abaddon caused the Charr to invade Orr, and this was the perfect opportunity for the vizier to use his magic. Now he had an excuse to turn to this forbidden magic. He blew up Arah and by doing so, he did what Abaddon asked him to do.

Here's a question to you: if Abaddon caused the Charr to invade Orr, and the vizier wasn't a follower of Abaddon and in no way related to him, why would the vizier then later on join the one who caused his home to be destroyed?

And on a sidenote: I did indeed mean Lord Onrah. An honest mistake for which I apologize.

Oh yes, I forget about that. Thank you for clearing that up.

Then don't bring it up as a fact. If you cannot back something up, then it cannot be proven and cannot be used as a fact.

The people did not know what caused the Scarab Plague for a long time, in fact, during a side quest for NF characters only we see that they are just NOW starting to figure out what caused it. That gives more support for the "tales of forbidden ruins" being made because of the Scarab Plague, as they didn't know how it spread, they might have feared it spreading again and made those ruins forbidden. It is man's nature to fear the unknown after all.


Spirits naturally go to the Rift, not the Mists, after death, by being escorted by the Envoys. These people died, their spirits being corrupted by Abaddon via Cataclysm, and were sent to the Realm of Torment. It's when the spirit dies that is *supposedly, no real proof for what happens* goes back to the mists to be used to create new life.



Orr would just be ONE of the shores of the Crystal Sea. The other would be the Desolation and the Blazeridge Mountains, and what I was meaning as unexplorable was areas off the maps, to the east of the desert. We have no clue what is there, most likely being landmass. There are literally four sides the "shore" covered, and therefore too large of a possibility to limit the temple to only Orr. Also, if the Temple was pulled out of Orr, it would have been in Arah, as that is the City of the Gods, and 1. Margonites are not proven to have lived in Arah and 2. it then wouldn't be on the shore.


I give Anet credit, but please realize, that the Orrian undead models are all over the Tarnished Coast and in the Charr Homelands, the Charr Homelands undead were Ascalons, not Orrians. Not to mention, even in Prophecies, there are repeated skin usage. Also, I don't say they are "simply undead," I just didn't bother going into my theory on how they came to be. I'm short on time, so I'll look up a thread where theories about the Skeleton Army are and I'll later post it.

It isn't because it did not drop from the monsters, but the chest. Anet does have laziness, they can easily just say "we already have undead armor drops, lets put those in there to save time."

The answer to your question is easy. Corruption and desire for power. Razakel corrupted Khilbron, and Khilbron wanted power, proven by his want to control the Titans and rule the world in Prophecies, used the scroll to gain power by becoming a lich.

First i would like to apologize for something i overlooked. After discussion about Shards of Orr arose in the other thread i remembered Fendi Nins pact with the Kings Advisor - who i can only guess to be Khilbron (It was King Zoran not King Reza who was king at the time but its still in Khilbrons lifetime). This pact caused Fendi's current condition and was obviously dark magic. So it would seem Khilbron did have a dark side.

But i still disagree with him finding the scrolls in Elona - due to the fact the Manuscript does tell the origin of where he got it from.


But an answer to your question: Shiro.

Shiro wasnt a follower of Abaddon. He had no relation to him at all. But he was manipulated to cause the death of the Emperor and himself. Why would he later join up with Abaddon? the answer - Madness and Power. The Lich seeked power. Shiro was driven mad. Eventually each one became a general for Abaddon.

No. They really are that lazy. But i dont blame them - you can only make so many different skeleton armies. Why not simply use already existing ones?

Here: Why would Anet create an entire army of unique soldiers only to create a entire new army using the exact same models right down to the very emblem but coloured black instead? and we've already had confirmation that they are not connected at all. The Undead in Kryta do the exact same thing with pretty much every Undead Melee fighter in Tyria.

skins are re-used and re-used throughout the game. just look at weapons. ANet have made a great game, but they are lazy quite frankly

abbadon isn't the victim here, he's the culprit. sure he may have been betrayed by the gods but you don't go crazy + destroy orr and bring about nightfall. that's weak, picking on the innocents, and not the gods themselves. he'd only do what he did if he was crazy + evil. it's a no brainer.

and the orr armor isn't really proof. it comes from a chest for all we know an orrian could have sailed over to fahranur, + put it in a chest as a 'time capsule' thingy-mi-bob.

what you're forgetting here is that in kryta you have skeleton bowmasters + rangers who drop decayed orr emblems/armor. that is a clue. i've read somewhere that the orrians once controlled the northern province of kryta. where are all these undead? kryta.

totaally agree with you azaeal. cause think about it. you were corrupted and destroyed your home, and then you realise how powerful you are. you begin playing around in your head with what else you can achieve. you've had a taste of the honey, but you want the whole beehive. he wanted power, and razakel showed him that abbadon could give him that power.

Yeah...A lot of the points Azazel brought up are things that you need only look up in the Manuscripts again. However, he does raise some good ones.

For a bit of review on the basic information on Orr..

That aside..

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the scrolls read by the Vizier were from anywhere else, but the catacombs beneath Arah. So, really, that does invalidate that part of your theory.

The Temple of the Six Gods and its location in the real world is a point of much debate amongst those of us interested in lore. There are people like myself who think that it was possibly at the Mouth of Torment as it may be that the Desolation was more of a tropical coast to the Crystal Sea before Abaddon's fall.

I strongly disagree with the possibility of it being in Orr though, and I have decent reasons to back this up. If the Temple of the Six Gods was in Orr, and it was struck down at the fall of Abaddon, there would be something in Arah to show for it. From the descriptions provided, there's nothing tarnished in Arah at all, it's a beautiful city, architecturally probably one of the most extravagant in Tyria. Plus, the Temple was desecrated by the Margonites, and its architecture resembles that of the other buildings that are related to them.

However..The interesting thing here that I just uncovered, probably for the second time, is this: 175 BE Margonite settlements appear along coastlines north and west of Elona.

What do those directions lead to..? Orr. I'll have to dig up my crazy theory relating to the Margonites again..

That point out of the way..

You're using the Abaddon was behind everything card too much here. There's not enough information to indicate that the Scarab Plague was caused by Abaddon, in fact, it seems more or less like a spontaneous event. Whatever the case, it was something in the food supply, whether or not it was intentionally placed there can be speculated forever. There's just not enough information to justify it as Abaddon's doings.

Fahranur was not literally the first city ever built by humans, by the way. The earliest humans existed on Cantha and had quickly settled the coastlines making those settlements some of the first towns or cities.

It was the first city on Istan and in Elona, however. Considering the fact that any human settlements prior to Abaddon's fall probably would have had some temples or altars dedicated to him it doesn't surprise me that Fahranur would have a local altar. Besides that, Istan is an island, and is any existing structures there are held in the hands of the seas, so of course one of their first cities would wish for the protection of the God of Water.

You may have a point, that Elonians did have a personal preference for Abaddon, but obviously not to the point of the Margonites. Although you may call them Elonians too, I guess, if their point of origin was on the Marga Coast.

As was already pointed out though..The Cataclysm destroyed most of the kingdom and killed the inhabitants, many of which probably reside in the Realm of Torment due to the taint of Abaddon's magic, though we don't see all of them. This is clearly displayed by the NPCs in Gate of Secrets and Gate of Torment, of which the one in the Gate of Secrets mentions more souls from Orr. As to actual structures..I don't think we see any of those in the Realm of Torment or elsewhere, unless of course the Temple of the Six Gods did reside somewhere along the Orrian peninsula.

Anyway..In short:

Read over the existing lore, modify your theory where there are inconsistencies, and where there are links to made..Well, that's where the whole theorizing thing comes into play. Which you have down, you just need to make sure your theory keeps in line with what we do know, and tries to connect the dots.


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...Darn it. Az posted before I finished this one, so this is all in response to him.

There IS a head of a statue of Abaddon outside Fahranur, just go outside of Jokanur Diggings and look for yourself. If you're on a computer that can run GW there's no excuse not to do so, or if it can't, there's no excuse not to look on the wiki.

..I've explained this several times, Azazel, the spirits do not go to the Rift. They may pass through there, but they do not go there. They are brought to the Hall of Judgment to be judged by Grenth and given a suitable location in the Underworld or in other words, afterlife.

Or Razakel corrupted the Vizier, by making him a follower of Abaddon, and just outright told him the plan to destroy Arah and by that time the Vizier was devout enough of a follower to go through with it. Devotion is a strong thing, sometimes you don't need power to make you do something.

I was actually just as surprised as anyone else when I read the dialogue for my NPC. My works basically summarize the history of Orr and then some observations on my part. The connection between Orr and Elona in any way was not contained in my work, at least, from what I can remember.

This is so outdated now that I really just want to rewrite the whole thing. It could be so much better now, what with the access to nonviolent Undead, and just in general the new lore related to it..

i thought though that the gods moved the temple of the six gods to the realm of torment with abbadon

That was not the statue I was thinking of actually. I was thinking of the one that is literally at Fahranur - the one that looks the same as the one at the Sunspear Great Hall-, not one that is too far off to be considered part of the city.

And I've told you that there is no proof that the Underworld is not a part of the Rift. I've stated to you several times as well, It is known that the Hall of Heroes is part of the Rift, and a part of the way to the Hall of Heroes is a small section of the Underworld *the two are, lore-wise, the same but not map-wise*. And I think it is even mentioned somewhere that the Realm of Torment is in the Rift, I'll have to look around for that though, and we know the Underworld and the Realm of Torment are connected via Bone Pits. So through that, I still hold to the fact that the Underworld is part of the Rift, and the spirits do go to the Underworld, unless they meet some specifications *like Ural being a devout follower of Dwayna, and people being influenced by Abaddon*.

That is a possibility, but seeing how the Lich never mentions Abaddon's name other than the area Abaddon's Mouth, I don't think that is likely. Still possible.

Actually, Gahmir Lenon seems quite convinced that there is, in fact, a connection between the First City and the Orrian Kings. He never mentions the word "possible", he specifically says "how it relates".

the simple fact that you get decayed orr armor as a drop in the first city means that there is an orrian connection there. it's an accepted fact that chest drops correspond to the type of enemy in the area. for instance you can't get titan armor or a magmus shield from a chest that isn't near titans. the same is true with chests in the other campaigns also, am fah gear from areas with am fah and margonite armor from areas with margonites. no matter how lazy others think Anet employees may be, i don't think they would have made this sort of error.

i will say, though, that Lenon says "ancient" meaning that Vizier Khilbron couldn't have commissioned those Orrian soldiers to go there, seeing as he is the one that caused the cataclysm which happened after the searing, which means Khilbron was not around for the "ancient" Orrians being in Fahranur.

that is unless, the vizier, himself is ancient. this could be a possibility, i suppose, since i haven't seen an actual birthdate for him and he is quite obviously powerful and, being a lich, is undead. if he is, in fact, ancient he could have visited fahranur in the distant past and taken a contigent of orrians with him to unmask/uncover the secrets of some of abaddon's power, if some of that power resides there. it's quite obvious from the quests posted by Azazel that the Vizier was a traitor to Orr and probably a follower of Abaddon, who of course wanted Arah destroyed, which Khilbron managed to do.

the more i think about it, the less "far-fetched" (it's a game, of course it's all far-fetched) it seems that the vizier could have made a trip to fahranur in the distant past. nowhere does it say that the charr are coming so the vizier sent soldiers to elona then came back and destroyed orr with the knowledge he or his minions gained there. of course, if anyone can give me an actual age on Khilbron, then this whole "he's ancient" theory is out the window. i may play around with this idea a little more and try and refine it. input would also be nice.

Crystal Sea= The Crystal Desert

The proff that statues were once there, Go to Arid Sea(or somthing like that) and lokk at the Big Ass Stute of some chick.

ummm... i'm a little lost by this post. what do statues in the arid sea have to do with any of this? i realize "Crystal Sea= The Crystal Desert" but i don't understand how this relates to Fahranur, Orr, FoW and the relationship between the three.

Actually, I don't think the Vizier is ancient. Seeing how the Orrians were made undead via the Cataclysm, it makes most since the Vizier became a Lich at that time. He was probably in his late teens/early twenties by the time of the 2nd Great Cosair War, unless his predecessor was corrupt in the arts of Necromancy as well.

He may (It says the Kings Advisor and it is in his lifetime so i believe its him) of been around making dark deals with Corsairs after the 2nd Corsair War in 1016 AE and we meet and kill him in 1072 AE. I believe he would of been in his early twenties during the 2nd Corsair War. I dont think hes ancient though.

I said I would like to ignore that because what you said before was simply not worth the effort responding to. If you would simply take a little walk around Fahranur, you will find the remnants of a statue of Abaddon. And yes, I can bring it up as a fact because no one would be stupid enough to question whether or not the statue represents Abaddon.

Exactly. They were sént to the Realm of Torment. If you just look at what Vialee says, you will notice that he witnessed the explosion brought about by the vizier, and then found himself in the Realm of Torment immediately afterwards. It was the cataclysm, the spell itself used by the vizier that sucked the Orrian people into the Realm of Torment.

Yes, of course... My theory isn't absolute, it isn't waterproof. But the fact that Orr would be one of the shores, makes my theory possible. I'm not saying that I'm correct about what I claim, I'm merely presenting something that might be possible.

Earlier, it was said by one of you that Terick didn't tell the vizier about Abaddon. You even said the vizier was probably not a follower of Abaddon, contrary to my beliefs. But then none of what you say makes any sense. First of all, where exactly is it said that the vizier was corrupted by Razakel? Looks to me like the vizier was tricked and manipulated. It even shows in Terick's character. This is what is said during the quest:

Reward Dialogue

"I can't believe these things you've told me. I've seen men twisted by these lands, and it is true Terick had been acting different as of late. But I can't believe he could be responsible for such an unspeakable crime. He was a good man. There must be something more to this."

Terick was thought to be a good and kind man, yet he turned out to be different. He tricked everyone into believing he was someone else. That leads me to conclude he would use the same method to trick the vizier.
(on a sidenote: the name Terick actually has the word 'trick' in it.)

Secondly, how could the vizier not know about Abaddon? He already knows there is a place called Abaddon's Mouth, and seeing how he is a mage and a practicer in the matters of the arcane, it seems logic that he did his homework and found out who this Abaddon creature is.

Yes, the Shards of Orr is something I'm currently looking in to. What you said perfectly illustrates the vizier's dark side. It shows that the vizier has a hidden agenda. Everything he does is planned. Just look what type of guy he is during the game. He's intelligent, insidious and always knows what to do. So why doesn't all that apply to the cataclysm?

I would also like to point out that despite the name of the dungeon, the location it takes place, and the skin he uses, Fendi Nin is not Orrian. Like every member of the Queen of Fools, he is Elonian, and more specifically Corsair. I know this undermines my theory, because now I realize you and Azazel are right. Orrian skins used on non-Orrian creatures. This makes me question the Skeleton Army. However, I still believe the undead in Fahranur are Orrian.

Well... funny you should bring that up. I don't know if you remember, but I posted a thread a long time ago in which I shared some interesting finds regarding the Balthazar-wallpaper. I believed, and still do, that Menzies can be seen in that wallpaper. Aside from the already convincing visual elements, I also added some additional arguments. The Menzies-subject fascinates me. I believe to have found a connection between the White Mantle and the Shadow Army. Trust me, I would have given up trying to find one a long time ago, were it not for that question that kept haunting me: If Anet didn't want there to be any connection between the White Mantle and the Shadow Army, why would they leave on that one thing that would be the best thing to make us think otherwise? The white mantle emblem is the strongest argument to think there is indeed a connection, stronger even then the use of the same model. And if Anet blackened the models, why not blacked the emblem too while they're at it? I'll post more on this later.

Thank you. Like I said, in a land of desert and wasteland, the god of water is a welcome deity.

Exactly. You can't expect these undead to drop Orr emblems; that's too obvious. We already have an NPC mentioning the connection between Fahranur and Orr, and a chest that drops Orr armor. To me, that's convincing enough. And what Joshua said is undeniably true.

The vizier could very well be ancient. We know that Khilbron was the vizier of both king Zoran and his son, king Reza. If both of them had a somewhat long life, then the vizier would be quite old. And if we look at him in-game, he doesn't even look all that old to me. He is a mage, he practices the arcane, and so he probably found a way to extend his life.

Well, I believe his transformation from human to lich was a result of the cataclysm. It's only natural you would go from human to undead after some catastrophic event. And why he became such a particularly powerful undead might be because of his own powers as a mage, or because of Abaddon.

Look, here's a bit of a summary again. I would like to point out just how logic this story can be.

Orr is home to Arah, city of the gods. If we assume that the temple of the six gods once stood in Orr, (which is possible considering the fact the Orr would be one of the shores of the Crystal Sea) then at one point in time, the Orrians worshiped all six gods. After Abaddon's fall, it makes sense the Orrians looked at Abaddon as an outcast, a forbidden god. The 5 old gods probably supported that, as they were the ones that locked Abaddon up. They would convince the people to erase everything about Abaddon and forget he ever existed.

The vizier, for some reason, continued to worship Abaddon. Possibly he was tricked and manipulated by Terick, telling him that he should continue to worship Abaddon. As a reward, he would be granted power. (Like Azazel said, power is a strong motivation) So the vizier continued to do Abaddon's bidding. It's only natural Abaddon would have a great hatred towards the old gods. He informed the vizier, probably through Terick, that he wanted Arah destroyed. (Terick literally says this) Arah was home of the gods, the very gods that sentenced him to eternal torment.

The vizier would need powerful magic to destroy Arah. He would require the power of Abaddon, because I can imagine the home of the gods is not easily destroyed. If the gods lived in Arah, it would be protected by divine magic. And the only magic powerful enough the overcome it, is the magic of another god. This is the very reason why the vizier travelled to Fahranur, temple of Abaddon. He went there to get the spells he needed, and returned home. He then kept the spells hidden deep below Arah. When the time was right, Abaddon caused the Charr to invade Orr, giving the vizier the excuse he needed. He used his acquired spells and destroyed Arah, while saying he did it only to push back the Charr.

Note: it is said that Orrian Royal Guards found "forbidden" spells in the chambers of the vizier. Why are they forbidden? If you accept my theory, then you have an answer. They are forbidden because they are spells given by Abaddon, the outcast god. The royal guards somehow knew these spells were related to Abaddon, and because they were taught to no longer worship Abaddon and consider him an evil and enemy god, they labeled the spells as 'forbidden'.

Not exactly. Anyone that comes into contact with Abbadon, his forces and i would guess magic (infact comes into contact with ANYTHING to do with Abbadon) becomes tainted. The tainted cannot pass to the Hall of Heroes or Underworld - they only have one destination which is the Realm of Torment. They were not sucked into the Realm of Torment - they died and found themselves there.

Vialees experience is exactly the same as one of the NPCs in the Underworld who says he witnessed the skys over Ascalon turn red and crystals rain down and then he found himself in the Underworld. Its instant death before they know what happened. The same thing happened to the Charr who were caught in the magic in Orr. While i know thats what your saying - they were sent to the Realm of Torment - But i want to point out it wasnt like you suggested earlier (About Orrians being transported to other dimensions like the FoW due to the cataclysm). They just simply died and became victim to the gods plan of seperating anything that was tainted by Abbadon.

Dont.

We tried for awhile to make connections between the White Mantle and the Shadow Army.

"Perhaps the Mantle died and due to the Mursaat became the Shadow Army?"

"Perhaps the Shadow Army are corrupted Mantle?"

"Perhaps they are a group of White Mantle who found their way into FoW from the Temple of Ages?"

"What if Menzies brought them into the FoW?"

Eventually someone asked Anet and they confirmed that they have no connection. Anet probably didnt expect us to observe them to the point of seeing the emblem on their backs. Ether way it has been confirmed that there is no connection and Anet simply used the White Mantles model, turned them black, sticked a few spikes on it and gave them glowing eyes. They probably liked the look of the Mantle Mages and decided to use them - i personally think it suits them.

Nearly everything in the Fissure of Woe is an altered version of something else in Tyria.

Your Theory has alot of holes. In a way your tossing out things that have already been confirmed and throwing new things into their places.

Then we can agree on the vizier using a spell that relates to Abaddon/Abaddon's magic? If that is of course what you're saying.

Then could you mind telling me how the Abaddon spells found their way in to the vaults below Arah?

Very well. If it has been officially confirmed by Anet, then there is indeed no point in doing so.

When I look at my summarized version of the story in my previous post, I honestly don't see that much holes. Maybe it's a bit far-fetched and doesn't sound that logic in your opinion, but at least it's possible.

Why wouldnt there be spells belonging to Abbadon below Arah? it was the City where the gods dwelled! i bet theres a few things from Balthazar,Dwayna and Melandru in there. Theres probably a few things from Grenth and Lyssa there aswell.

And before you begin on the "Its only ever said 3 of the gods dwelled in Arah" - Abbadon didnt even exist when we heard about that. Since Abbadon was pretty much wiped from History its possible he did dwell in Arah at one point or at least had a few things there.

And i dont recall ever saying the spell that caused the Cataclysm wasnt originally an Abbadon spell? infact who even said it wasnt an Abbadon spell? i've only reffered to it as dark magic up to now. I dont think Azazel or Leon have said anything about it ether.

I would think that since Abbadon knew it was there or had an idea of where it was, that would be proof that it was his or associated with him at some point. That doesnt mean because its his it came from Fahranur though.


Its not because its far fetched - its because it goes against what we already know. The biggest hole in your theory is the location of the scroll. Your saying he may of found it in Fahranur.

The official lore - read official, not something we've pieced together, says that he got it in a Vault in the Catacombs under Arah.

As pointed out by Azazel in the Cryptogram thread, in Shards of Orr on the second level (the whole dungeon is going up from the first floor so technically the first floor is actually the bottom floor) there is a room which only has one way in and is guarded by Undead that contains........scrolls!. Its very possible that the Shards of Orr are part of the Catacombs mentioned and that very room is the vault. If it is it adds again to the already stated story of Orrs downfall - that he got it from there.

... I wasn't planning on moving to that subject. Besides, everybody knows that during the time Balthazar, Melandru and Dwayna resided in Arah, Grenth and Lyssa were in Cantha.

Sure, I know that Khilbron went to get it inside the vault. What you don't seem to want to accept is that I think the scrolls haven't always been there. The vizier didn't go to Fahranur in a hurry to get the scrolls when the Charr attacked, he probably did that a long time before. I don't believe that Abaddon could have hidden such powerful magic inside Arah in the presence of the other gods. And if they did know, do you really believe that after casting out Abaddon they would leave his scrolls inside Arah? They would probably destroy it, along with everything else referring to him. The reason the vizier was able to use some of Abaddon's spells is because they weren't located in Orr first. They were hidden in Fahranur, away from the old gods and all the others who wanted to erase all of Abaddon's belongings.

So wait Terick tricked (regardless of him being an Abbadon worshiper or not it says he "tricked" him as you already pointed out) the Vizier into using the scroll that he had previously got from Fahranur, the city which had been sealed due to the Scarab Plague years before, which then blew up Orr?

Why did he go and get the said scroll from Fahranur and then store it in a vault? what was his intention? and how did Terick trick him into using a scroll he had previously collected? Khilbron seemed like a clever man to me - if he had gone to collect something i'm sure he would of studied it first rather than sealing it in a vault and then using it when pushed by a citizen.

Yes?

Abbadons Mouth? the Statues of Abbadon in Elona? the gods didnt seem to cover everything up. They made sure his name and the events that conspired between them and his forces at the Mouth of Torment were wiped off history - but they forgot a couple of vital things.They left in the exact same year that Abbadon was defeated - who knows how much time there was between his defeat and their Exodus. Checking the Catacombs may not of been important to them as long as Abbadon is sealed away and his actions are forgotton. Lets remember theres something else sleeping down there which the gods seem to have overlooked.

"I dont believe Abbadon could of hidden such powerful magic inside Arah?" This is Abbadon we're talking about. He managed to pull off an exact chain of events from the Searing to the Cataclysm from inside his prison with pure manipulation. He is the God of Secrets! i dont think hiding scrolls from the other gods would of been any effort to him. Infact i believe putting such powerful magic onto a scroll was pretty good.

Aeve, have you even been through the Desolation? It's like a Margonite/Forgotten/Primeval Dynasty/Turai Pilgrimage treasure trove.

Yes. Margonite.

There were quite literally TONS of things left over in the Desolation from the time of the Margonites. The Gods did try to conceal everything about Abaddon from humanity, but here's the thing and there's more proof than just this event..They're not perfect beings that can wipe away all traces of something's existence in one year.

There are Abaddon statue heads in the north and south of the Desolation, and a head next to Fahranur. All this really says to me is that one, the Desolation was likely an area of Margonite concentration before the Fall, and two, that Abaddon must not have been that respected in Fahranur.

Think about it for a moment, the head of his statue is outside of Fahranur and it's damaged. The innermost chamber of Fahranur is filled with water and tentacles, ignoring the tentacles or tendrils or whatever you want to call them, that would be a place for a statue of Abaddon. But it's not there.

You could say that his statue was destroyed and thrown out after his fall, but there's nothing to show that his statue ever existed inside there.
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Fahranur, to me, seems like the closest thing to Arah we have in game. Arah was the city of the Gods, Fahranur is the first city of humanity in Elona. Both come from ancient times, and both hold many ancient treasures. However, what you're asking us to do is to discount the Manuscripts account.

You seem to think it's easy and simplistic for a random Tyrian, particularly Orrian, to come down from the north and just all of a sudden ask to enter their First City. One that, from all that we can tell in-game, has been locked down for centuries even before the Vizier may have visited. A random foreigner, from somewhere they had never bothered traveling to, just waltzes in and takes an artifact from the forbidden ruins of their First City without killing anyone? Really? The only way the Kournans managed to sneak in was through the use of the Corsairs to divert Sunspear forces from the City.

The thing is, you're oversimplifying it. If an Orrian of Vizier Khilbron's status went to Elona at any time, I imagine we would have heard something about it in a quest or at least in the Manuscripts, especially if one requested to enter the First City. But we don't.

Not really..The catacombs were directly beneath Arah and Arah is at the bottom of the Sea of Sorrows. We would have to take an Asura gate into the Shards of Orr if they were a part of the catacombs beneath Arah. The fact (how do you know that it goes up, by the way?) that it goes upward seems to make it less likely.

Source? Otherwise your entire paragraph above is just unsupported misinformation.

Well the Shards of Orr do run alittle out to sea but as you said they would have to be underneath Arah and Orrs position on the map is quite far away from the coast and i dont think they reach that far out. I just find it interesting how it seems just like a vault.

Oh and in dungeons the portals to the next level are marked by a staircase which indicates if the next level is going up or down (for example Darkrime Delves have staircases going down which indicates that your heading further down towards the nest). Shards of Orr uses Upward Staircases.

I believe Aeve is talking about this.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Faded_Memory

Ah. I'm not one to do many quests that are outside of outposts, thanks for pointing that out.

Edit: Just a funny note, the default dialogue of the Wandering Spirit before you talk to him about the quest is a quote from the song Once in a Lifetime by Talking Heads.

The way I see it, is that the vizier only knew what Abaddon wanted him to do. And that is to blow up Arah.
Source: http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blueprint_of_the_Fall

The vizier had to obtain magic powerful enough to do so... bla bla... As far as Terick's misguidance goes, I believe he merely tricked the vizier into believing the magic he was going to use would only destroy Arah. After all, the vizier was an intelligent person, like you said, and he was about to use unknown magic. Little did he know the spell would not only destroy Arah, but all of Orr. This is more or less said here:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Escape_from_the_Torment
Exactly, they forgot a couple of things, which means all that is left of Abaddon (statues, scriptures, locations, ...) was left there accidental. I can accept the fact that the gods would forget about certain statues, but inside Arah itself...? When they started their quest to 'erase everything that relates to Abaddon', do you not think they would begin in their own home? The place where Abaddon himself might have resided, like you said earlier. They must have found the scrolls, I can't believe they would overlook that.

Phew, when I first read that, I was thrilled with excitement. I haven't done the Shards of Orr dungeon yet and how awesome would it be to set foot in a room that may well have been "the" vault. But unfortunately, it's impossible.

Yes, I have to admit, that was a bit of a tricky thing. Why would the remnants of Abaddon's statue be outside his temple instead of inside? Well, like you said, it might have been thrown out by Abaddon's oldd followers after he was cast out by the other gods and regarded as the forbidden god. That might even make sense, seeing as the current location of the statue's head would be a very odd place to construct such a statue.

I would assume Khilbron travelled to Fahranur after it had been abandoned. Whether it be because it was a temple dedicated to Abaddon and therefore forbidden to enter after he was cast out or because the Scarab Plague originated there... The reason doesn't matter. Kormir clearly says that "tales of the forbidden ruins" are part of her history. It would have been very easy for the vizier to enter an abandoned city, don't you think?

Note: I just realized that the use of the word "forbidden" might just link the scrolls Khilbron used with Fahranur. The scrolls the vizier used were forbidden because they related to the forbidden god, and the ruins were forbidden, also, because it related to the forbidden god. Makes sense, no?

Yep, thanks for clearing that up.

Actually, what Khilbron used is referred to in two different ways. Lost Scrolls and Forbidden Books, but the use of the word Forbidden isn't enough of a link. People were forbidden from going to the ruins because of two things, the tales that surrounded it, and the Scarab Plague. Those two things make it forbidden. Think about the Maguuma Jungle, it could easily be called a Forbidden Jungle because Krytan children are forbade by their parents from entering there due to the tales of man-eating plants and insects.

Does that make it related to Abaddon? No, it does not. See how tenuous the connection is?

Also...Fahranur, the First City was only abandoned during the years of the Scarab Plague, after that it was sealed off and guarded. To prevent people from entering and inciting another Scarab Plague.

In fact, it was probably during these years that the tales started to be spun about the ancient city. After a few centuries it would have become a mainly unknown location, like the Maguuma Jungle, and it wouldn't take much more than that unknown factor to spin wild and frightening tales about the place.

Ah but Arah was i believe the only city on Orr (someone correct me if i'm wrong). Judging from the size of Orr it could of only held one city there when in comparison to Lions Arch - and i'm going to guess that it was alot bigger than Lions Arch.

I'm going to use this picture from GmrLeons thread on GWO relating to Orr. Note its not an official picture of Orr since we dont have one yet but it is the closest picture to Orrs possible look.



With that i would estimate Arah to be here, based on how it looks post-Cataclysm:



Heres a present day picture:



So really i doubt anyone could think that something able to wipe out a city like Arah wouldnt take Orr with it.


You should take a look anyway. It is a very fascinating room.

I was talking about a different statue, as I stated when responding to GmrLeon. I'm talking about this not this, which is what you are talking about and is farther then the first statue(s).



As Free Runner and I already said, they were not sucked into the Realm of Torment, their spirits were sent there. You are saying their bodies where sent there, not just their spirits


I've always said that Khilbron knew about Abaddon before the Cataclysm because of the quest Faded Memory. I say corrupted because that was the original thought, although I say Khilbron was evil the entire time, didn't know of Abaddon until Terick showed up, but was still evil.

I think those undead just used the model/skin of the undead in the Catacombs, and seeing how there are no chests in the catacombs, ANet probably just linked them to the Orrian undead for simple use of marking their affiliation, and prevented them from dropping armor. Same can be said for the ones in Fahranur and the quest A Deal's A Deal, as the same skins from the Catacomb undead are there. The thing ANet probably overlooked was the chest drop thing, which has caused you to think this.

YOU don't see holes in your theory because YOU made the theory and apparently don't know/remember what we have proof of, and you are refusing to agree to those facts while insisting that your theory instead.

Sorry for moving to that subject, but why can I not recall anything mentioning Grenth and Lyssa in Cantha... Please help me out on this, as it seems it is something I never noticed.

What you don't seem to want to accept is what Free Runner pointed out, why be tricked into using scrolls when he has to go get them. Khilbron is no dummy, except when it comes to his power compared to ours . He would have done SOMETHING other than just storing in a vault. As for your "hidden away" part, the best location to hide something from others is to put it right under their noses. In this case, literally. I mean, if the other gods are as big as Abaddon, I don't think they could have fit in catacombs (That's both a joke and serious).

What I meant in that thread that it was more of a second vault/Library, not so much the one Khilbron got his Ancient Scroll from.

I think you are right, it was Arah and then an outskirts town/city where the people lived *Arah itself was abandoned other then maintenance I believe, Orrians waiting for the gods to return didn't want their home messed up*

As is the room with the crystals and the sword-warrior guy, which was attempted to be connected as Menzies *could still very well be true, but highly unlikely, as I believe it was Free Runner that said it is probably just an ancient warrior like the guy with the spear all over Istani*

You're absolutely right. I was actually half-joking about using the word "forbidden" as a link between the scrolls and Fahnranur.

Okay, that's pretty convincing. However, there is a thing that bothers me. It is said that during the Second Great Corsair War, the Orr territory extended to the Tarnished Coast, and even to the North Kryta Province. The Orr kingdom is in that case a lot bigger then you said.

Yea, well... perhaps you're right. People do often say it is indeed best to hide something in the most obvious spot. I still find it unlikely but you did more or less convince me.

Sure, but I came across a thread posted by Eratimus. It was very interesting and suggested a possible link between the Catacombs and the Crystal Desert. It was even suggested it was linked to Orr. I thought about it myself and I indeed found it odd that an entire Charr army could sweep through lands on their way to Orr without leaving any traces. It makes a lot of sense they used the Catacombs to march to Orr through an underground network. When the Catacombs indeed lead to the Crystal Desert, or even Orr, then perhaps the skeletons inside the Catacombs aren't just undead.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=385135

Well, that's a pretty old theory of mine. I came up with it when I purchased Factions and took a closer look at the professions. Here's basically what is attributed to both Grenth and Lyssa.

- Lyssa: the goddess of illusions and trickery. Mesmers following her teachings prefer to deceive their opponents and mislead them.
- Grenth: the god of death and the afterlife. He rules over the undead, and evertyhing in the undead world: skeletons, spirits, ...

And furthermore, the 5 old gods can in a way be divided into two groups. Balthazar, Dwayna and Melandru are the 'good' gods, while Lyssa and Grenth are perceived as being 'bad' gods.

The 3 good gods were in Arah, while Lyssa and Grenth were in Cantha to spread their teachings. This is why Cantha offers two professions that are easily linked to both gods.

The assassin: through the shadow stepping ability, the assassin misleads and fools the opponent, just like the mesmer does.

The ritualist: the ritualist channels the spirits of the undead, and even animates corpes like the necromancer.

And there's also the visual link: mesmer is pink, assassin is purple. Necromancer is green, ritualist is teal.

It's not a "serious" theory or anything, but there still is a strong connection and resemblence.

I have noted that it says that on wiki, but I cannot find a source for that anywhere other then wiki. With that being the case, that is unconfirmed, unreliable information that was probably put there because someone thought "Shards of Orr is in the Tarnished Coast, so Orr must have owned that little area a while back!"

Interesting finds in that thread, however I disagree with that and agree more with the idea that the Charr just followed the Shiverpeaks on the eastern boarder after destroying the wall *which would leave most of Ascalon alone, and only unexplorable areas as their path*. I think the "connections" in that thread are mearly reused models *the statue head part* and the "tunnel opennings" have always seemed to be Forgotten homes to me - as the Forgotten Siliss Yassith is isolated on that "mountain" or whatever you wish to call it and is right next to one of those "tunnel entrances". Not to mention there are FAR to many of those supposed entrances for them to all be entrances *and a ton right next to each other.

This is the only problem I have with this little theory. I wouldn't call Lyssa and Grenth 'bad' Gods, but more of a 'anti-hero' god thing *they are good guys but they act/look/are percieved to be evil* and I would add in the third group of 'evil' gods *Abaddon, Dhuum, Menzies*. Other than that, makes sense, although now with Nightfall out, what do you say for that . Not to mention that the new professions worship Lyssa and Grenth doesn't prove they were in Cantha. But that's a different topic.

To be entirely honest, I haven't found any other source either. Normally I pretty much always believe what wiki says, but in this case I don't, as it sounds rather weird that the Orr kingdom would actually reach to North Kryta Province.

Yea sure, I too have always thought those 'tunnels' to be the homes of the forgotten. I don't believe they are the openings that lead to the Catacombs. Where this openings are, I don't know. But what you refer to are definitely lairs in which the forgotten live.

No, they're not really evil. They're good gods with a bit of a dark side. And no, it's not proof that Lyssa and Grenth were in Cantha, but it is an indication. It's the only satisfying theory I have as to why both Lyssa and Grenth aren't mentioned when it's said Arah is inhabited by the gods.

This was brought up in the other thread. The Tarnished Coast is actually uninhabited prior to the Asura. Well okay the Mursaat may of been there. But other than that all it had was its many Simian, Dinosaurs and Frogmen. The Orrian expansion is actually reffering to the Shards of Orr - inside it looks alot like present day Cantha on the first level.

Now the Wiki actually mentions that it expanded its Kingdom to North Kryta Province - which is actually a long way from Orr. Now i dont take anything from wiki as serious lore unless its backed by something. And i've looked around and cant find anything about Orr expanding to the North Kryta Province - i also find it hard to believe Kryta would allow that, especially during the Guild Wars.

The only kingdom to hold power over Kryta other then Kryta was Ascalon, as Kryta use to be a colony of Ascalon. There is no mention of Orr's founding or it having colonies. So it is possible that the "Orr controled North Kryta Province" was either a typo that was suppose to be "Ascalon controlled Kryta" *rather big typo* or someone noticed that the Scepter of Orr was buried in Majesty's Rest and thought Orr once had control over Kryta.

Edit: Although I cannot say why that note was added, I can say I found out who put that in. It was "Gordon Ecker". So if you want to ask him for his source *if he even remembers as it was changed on 14 September 2007*, there's all you need to know.

/begin joke
I call for a witch hunt! All those who post false information on wiki must be burned at the stake! Fueled by the Great Destroyer's Breath!
/end joke

Another Edit: @ below: That makes more sense then my guess.

I'm taking a huge guess here but:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Orrian_Excavation

I believe he may of misread that quest. I've removed it now anyway until someone can give the source.

when you die, a number of factors decide if you enter the hall of heores, like what you did in your life, and your DEATH. keeping in mind that the 5 true gods weren't in favor of evil magic, and the fact that someones death can decide if you spend eternity in the realm of torment, dying as a result of evil, forbidden magic probably wouldn't go down too well with grenth.

and the whole 'people abandoned fahranur because of abbadons taint is irrelevent becaue it says the in manuscripts, and i quote:
"In this troubled time, heroes tended to the sick, evacuated towns and villagers, and searched for the source of corruption"

which basically means that istan was totally abbandoned because of the severity of the scarab plague.

your theory does have alot of holes, and you really need to refine it because you're replacing fact with stuff that makes your theory work.

I don't think this quest says anything about the Orrian kingdom ever extending to the North Kryta Province. It does however raise the question as to why the orrian wizards would bury the tablet shards at that exact location. Why come all the way to Kryta to bury them?

Hmm, yea, I would think it's safe to say we're dealing with false information here. And about the first dungeon level looking like Cantha... Any thoughts on that? Or is that getting a bit off-topic?

That was the point Free Runner was making. The person mistook "Orrian wizards buried the tablets" for "Orr controlled." And a possible reason for burying them up there could be to keep them away from other Orrian Wizards, or they just had a vacation on Giant's Basin and had a good swim and buried them in the sand over there. Who doesn't do that?

O.o Uhh, quote the right person XD. But what I think Free Runner (not me) meant was all the clustered buildings making it look like the clustered city called Kaineng City. And that is getting off topic.

*laugh*

I just thought of something else. Why don't we mix some mystery into this discussion by introducing the most mysterious of them all: Bahltek.

As you know, I'm interested in Fahranur, and it just so happens to be that Bahltek says something rather interesting in that city:

Bahltek:there are items that hold a certain archemetrical infusion... sorry, you would say "power." The certain scroll I am searching for deals with a place of Nightmare, and the terrible beings that dwell there.

Bahltek is searching for a scroll in Fahranur with a certain power. And the scroll relates to "a place of nightmare and the terrible beings that dwell there". Alot of time has been wasted upon Bahltek's riddles, but I think most people agree that he's referring to the Realm of Torment here.

Again, this seems to fit in my theory.

I claimed that the vizier went to Fahranur to acquire certain scrolls. Spells he needed to destroy Arah. Bahltek confirms that there are indeed scrolls in Fahranur.

I claimed that the spell the vizier used to destroy Orr came from Abaddon. Bahltek confirms that the scrolls in Fahranur relate to the Realm of Torment, and therefore to Abaddon.

Some of you may wonder why Bahltek is searching for the scrolls, when the vizieral already took them. Well, firstly, we don't know if the vizier took all of the scrolls. And secondly, perhaps Bahltek only heard stories of scrolls being hidden Fahranur and is in no way aware of the fact they are no longer there.