Fahranur, Orr and the Fissure of Woe

When I read Bahltek's dialogue, I think of the scroll that General Kayhet gave Varesh in the cinematic after beating the Diggings mission. That scroll being from the Apocrypha and of course, refering to Nightfall *which is what I would think he meant by "a place of Nightmare".

Now, just because it is confirmed there were scrolls there *which was confirmed via the cinematic* and that they dealth with Abaddon *which, again, was confirmed via cinematic* doesn't mean they are the scrolls that caused the Cataclysm or that the Vizier went to Fahranur.

Again, that scroll could be just what Kayhet gave Varesh in order to help bring about Nightfall.

The only thing that helps your theory with is that Fahranur was a Temple to Abaddon, which I never truly disagreed with *only part I had a problem with was the statue thing, which was just two people talking about two different statues*

That's pretty much been debunked. I've thoroughly explored the Catacombs and there are no holes, no tunnels we cannot go through, that go south. The only thing that he had going for him there was something to explain the statue heads, but even then, it's an old and debunked theory.

As to Orr..It's already been explained, the part about North Kryta Province.

azazel, you know a lot more about guild wars lore than i do, but until you can prove that Anet did, in fact, make a mistake with the chest drop, one must accept that the undead in fahranur are Orrian. chests drop items related to the foes around them. if a chest in fahranur dropped decayed orr armor, the foes near that chest are orrian. in this instance, you are the one making the unsupported assumptions. of course, if you can screenie another chest dropping armor unrelated to any of the foes in the area, you may have an argument against the first city's undead being Orrian. but as of now, you are assuming someone at Anet made a mistake when there's no evidence to that effect. reskinning similar armor on similar creatures is one thing, chest drops are something different.

the theory that they are orrian is also supported by the "connection" that gahmir lenon is studying between fahranur and orr. that gives us 2 in-game pieces of evidence as to that particular group of undead's possible origins. whereas you have no evidence to support your assumptions.

i'm sorry if that came off as harsh but you're criticizing Aeve for holes in his/her arguments, when there is a glaring hole in this argument of yours.

That the chest drops something Orrian related could easily be connected to the reuse of the Undead models in the area that were originally meant only to be Orrian.

Actually, I just did a quick check over the wiki on the Undead there, none of them drop anything Orr related. It seems likely that the fact a Decayed Orr Armor comes out of the chest there was a mishap. If, and I repeat, if the Undead there were Orrian, Anet would have no trouble giving them the same drops as the Orrian undead. That they didn't seems to indicate that they are, in fact, not Orrian undead.

I may be assuming that ANet made an oversight. But you are assuming they did not. At the bolded part, one must not accept that as a fact, but one must accept the possibility of that being the case.

What they drop are simply "decayed" and "rusted" armor, nothing Orrian. Which only supports mine and Leon's argument.

I'm sure someone's done an article on this before: remember that undead can be made many ways, most undead were made when a great deal of people died at the same time, an unexpected death caused them to be restless in their afterlife. Their souls, as far as we know, do not move onto the mists. They either remain as ghosts or shambling corpses to haunt the area where they died.

The catacombs ghosts are simply the ghosts of dead soldiers who died in battle and were thus restless. The krytan undead were all made at the same time when they were torn from life during the cataclysm.

The undead in faranur were made when the whole population rapidly died of the scarab plague. Don't you think waking up one morning to find scarabs burrowing out from under your skin would make you die restless?

The undead in faranur are from there and are Istany.

The Vizier took the scrolls from a warded tomb in the catacombs of the Orr. Orr was an ancient city, the gods had lived there, it's no surprise that there was dark magic being kept safe somewhere hidden below it. Razekiel revealed to the vizier the location of the scrolls and told him they would stop the Charr army from entering Orr. In a desperate bid to save his people and to be recognized as the savior of Orr (I have a feeling what he wanted was power, and by saving his people and becoming their hero he could attain it) he spoke the scrolls and destroyed the city. Perhaps in GW2 they'll be a nice little CG video of it, it would make sense, given that Orr will be one of the high end dungeons in GW2

Do you mean the thread "The Hierarchy of the Undead"? If so, thank you for referring to my thread . If not, I'll need to find this other thread on undead, as there wasn't one before I made mine and I don't think one was made afterwards *at least on guru, maybe on GWO there was before*.

Actually, there is.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...gara/gw294.jpg

And here's the direction it points to. I can't check for myself since I no longer have Photoshop, but I believe it actually points exactly towards Orr.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...gara/gw290.jpg

Yea, but don't you think that would be too obvious? I mean, Anet would want to create a whole new chapter that is unique. If there are indeed supposed to be links to other chapters, then they would make them less obvious. Let's say they want to create a link between the Desolation and the Charr; they wouldn't let hordes of Charr walk around at that location or flood the place with burning effigies. At first sight, they want their new campaign to be unique, and with no ties to other chapters. But if there are any, then we have to look closer and really dig in, like we're doing right now. There are convincing arguments which joshua and I seem to consider enough evidence. We have an NPC saying there is indeed a link. This is therefore a fact, it is indisputable. And this claim is further supported by the strange chest drop.

That a Decayed Orr Armor dropped from a locked chest is a glaring hole? if it dropped from a Undead soldier i would agree but a locked chest? when Anet were making Hard mode i dont think their priorites were making hints.

Like GmrLeon said i think it was just confusion on their end putting something into a chest with related enemies nearby. They are not above accidently leaving things in for us to chase around on wild goose chases.

Yeah they wouldnt. It defies logic for obvious reasons.

But they DID hint at the connection - mummified Charr. So i dont really agree on Anet "Not trying to make it Obvious" as a Mummified Charr stands out alot.

Is... that seriously true? I was just giving a random example when I used the Charr and the Desolation. Is there actually a connection between those two through a mummified Charr?

I would think the fact that charr found themselves all the way in the Desolation in order to be killed and reanimated in the first place would be a strong hint at a possible connection. Unless Joko previously did an invasion of the Charr Homelands which i think would of been a major event to go unnoticed.

It would also help in explaning the Alters found around the Desolation that bear resemblance to the Cauldron of Cataclysm.

Infact speaking of the Cauldron i would like to bring this up. The Magic used to destroy Orr was obviously very destructive. The magic used from the Cauldron to destroy Ascalon was destructive aswell - i obviously cant say if it had the same effects (crystals and fire raining from the sky) but here are two accounts of the Searing and the Cataclysm:

It isnt acurate as both were killed after they witnessed this. Anson is also never given an origin but i presume he was in Ascalon due to his account of "fire raining from the sky" and the fact the group he is in are all people killed in the Searing.

Now heres something about the magic behind the Searing:

Now this is a big leap but what if the magic used during the Cataclysm was actually borrowed magic. This would mean the magic was never actually Abaddons to begin with. This would of course create a plothole in that if the magic wasnt Abaddons then why did the people of Orr become tainted. The only thing i can think of is that these Orrians had direct contact with a demonic entity such as Terick.

But then there is also the matter of how Abaddon knew about it. So perhaps Abaddon found the magic and tampered with it to a point of it being considered his own. If the gods didnt know about this then it would mean they wouldnt go looking for it. Abaddon could of left the magic in the place he found it or close to the place he found it (which just so happens to be near an ancient entity sleeping in a dorment state). Infact doesnt it seem funny that Khilbron and the other Orrians became Undead after using the spell? the spell that was found below Orr?

Now there's an interesting thought...

One of the apparent plotholes in Nightfall is that the Apocrypha is located in Fahrunar... but the Scarab Plague and subsequent abandonment of the city came well after Abaddon's imprisonment. What was it doing in a city that was still occupied?

One possibility, given the tests required to get in, is that that part of the city wasn't occupied even during the Scarab Plague - there is, after all, the REST of the city as well. So the Apocrypha could have been sealed away while the rest of the city was inhabited, just like, if we take the accepted theory regarding the origin of the scroll, the forbidden scrolls were locked away beneath Arah.

Alternatively, however, we still have the question of what caused the Scarab Plague. Palawa has generally been considered the prime suspect, but... what if the reason for the Plague and the fall of the Primeval Kings was because they had continued to invoke Abaddon in secret and the gods decided to send a blunt message?

That said, one thing I've always considered the possibility of is that there WAS no scroll - at least, not until right before the Cataclysm. Instead, it could have been made on the spot by Terick when it was needed and that it had been found in the cataclysms was simply what was told to everyone else.

I'm not going to disregard that evidence, but you seem to like logical conclusions, so tell me this..Why would the Charr, an intelligent race, take a route underground while giant crystals are falling from the sky? Doesn't that strike you as a bit..Absurd? The Catacombs of Ascalon would be collapsing during the Searing, Charr warbands going through them would die from the falling debris.

Er..Not too obvious does not compute. Anet knows there's a wiki and knows that the community is mainly focused on finishing the campaigns as quickly as possible. As such it's only a matter of a day or so and then you get information rolling in that..Hey..There are two Charr in the Realm of Torment that are on your side, two Margonites of the same nature, Forgotten, and..Here's the biggest one of all, the Lich and Shiro making a reappearance.

Aeve, yes, there are mummified Charr in the Desolation. Check the Bone Palace for a friendly NPC one.

And quests and two missions that literally states Shiro's and the Lich's connection to Abaddon are not obvious links? I do think they wanted some obvious links around tbh.

They did put a link between the two, but not in the sign of living Charr walking around, just undead ones, oh, and a desolation-style Cauldron that matches the Cauldron of Cataclysm

First sight, I'll take that. But a NPC saying that he is researching for a link and that there is a HM-only chest drop is not indisputable that there is a link. It just proves there might be a link, which is what I say. Find a third, maybe a forth link to connect the two, and I'll begin to believe the link, until then, I'll stay with there might be a link.




Dang it, Free Runner beat me to the Charr in the Desert. The Charr mummies are the Necromancers, there is one in the Bone Palace after the bridge near the exit to the Alkali Plains.


1. The Cataclysm wasn't caused by the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Searing was, it seems you're getting mixed up. And that kind of explains the lack of Ascalons in the Realm of Torment *yes there are some, but not many*. I think that ANet is trying to link the Cauldron of Cataclysm with the Ancient Dragons for some reason, mainly with that "sleeping entities" part. The Cataclysm was probably caused by Abaddon's magic, but the Searing might not have been. Of course, if the True Gods do not know about Ancient Dragons (unconfirmed if they do or don't) then how can they tell the difference between the Ancient Dragon's magic *or magic from their time* and Abaddon's?

I have always wondered, did the spell turn the Orrians undead, or was it the Undead Dragon that did. And if it was the spell that did, did the spell turn the Ancient Dragon into an Undead Dragon as well? *what a nightmare to wake up to...*

If you go to the room where the Apocrypha is during the mission, you'll notice three doorways under the water at each spot the tendrils are coming out. It is possible that the room, or one of them, was flooded since before the Scarab Plague, and that the Apocrypha escaped inbetween the time of the Scarab Plague and the time of Nightfall.

I think your getting mixed up. I never said the Cauldron caused the Cataclysm.

Notice what i said before using the Ecology of the Charr quote:

I actually said what if the magic used to cause the Cataclysm (ie. the lost scrolls) was actually magic from the Ancient Dragons, like the magic used for the Searing.

Are we ever given any indication on how you are judged to have been in contact with Abaddons forces or magic? and what exactly was Tericks occupation during his stay at Orr - the spirits seem to respect him in a way making me think he may of worked his way up to a influential position. I also dont think Khilbron would be taking advice from a simple citizen.

well, we know that terick was simillar to the fortune teller, another minion of abbadon. shiro came back to her becaue what she said to him was playing on his mind and lured him in. could this have also been the case with terick and khilbron? not exactly what the fortune teller told shiro of course, but maybe a few simple words in the street, convincing words.

The bolded parts below is what I was primarily looking at when I was responding to your comment:

They wouldn't, but in your scenario they would use the underground tunnel during the searing. Wiki clearly says that the Charr only began to move south towards Orr after the Searing. They would therefore avoid the trouble of having falling debris. And whether or not the Searing destroyed the underground route, we can't possibly know since the entrance to the catacombs has been blocked. The theory still stands.

Is this the one you're referring to?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Awata

If so, then I have to say it's not a Charr at all. I mean sure, it looks like one but in all probability, it's just a re-skin of the Charr, the same way Anet used the White Mantle to create the Shadow Army.

Even if it was after the searing, the tunnels would be blocked off and collapsed inside, and the entrance would be sealed, as it actually is. I hold that the more plausible route they took was along the Shiverpeak's eastern boarder, which would avoid much of Ascalon, but then again, the Manuscripts say they went right through Ascalon, so it is possible that they just "went right down the middle."

-just looked through the manual, only says that the Charr fought through Ascalon, no middle indication-

That is the friendly NPC that me and GmrLeon were talking about. And although it is possible for it to be a reused model *not reused skin like the Shadow Army/like the Flesh Golem is a reused model of a Charr Warrior* there is too much that makes it still look like a Charr and they would have done a better job, especially with the tail. If you compare anything that uses the same model but a different skin, like the Flesh Golem/Charr Warrior or the Temple Guardian/Roaring Ether/Charr Hunter Beast, you see far less connections. There are too many connections to deny the possibility. And one more thing, which GmrLeon will have to prove right/wrong, I believe it was stated by an ANet member that it was a Undead Charr.

Aside from that, all undead were once other creatures, and only one undead *the Effigy (elementalist)* in Joko's army does not resemble another living creature.

Edit: I have a feeling you just looked up on wiki for Awata. If that is the case, I highly suggest you look at the actual NPC, the biggest indication that it is a charr is the tail, along with the claws.

I'm rather lost as to what your trying to point to here.

Nowere do i see myself saying the Cauldron caused the Cataclysm. The first bolded line is me saying the magic used to destroy Orr was destructive like the magic to destroy Ascalon was.

And then the second bolded part is me about to give examples of what the Searing and Cataclysm looked like? and then the third bolded line is me saying "what if the magic used in the Cataclysm was borrowed magic?".

Here allow me:

Please do not try to make things out of my post that are not already there.

Ahhhh this is where we get caught in our own trap."If my Undead are reskins then why cant yours be".

You see -the Shadow Army are just White Mantle coloured black. However Awata appears to be a skeletal version of a Charr - shes not a Charr coloured blue,black green or yellow with some added spikes for that "Anet look" - shes an actual skeleton of a Charr with a fancy headress on. Now considering we have yet to see anything that looks like a Charr in Elona (or infact the world) and that all Undead were originally something in their past life, we can only assume that she was indeed a Charr in her past life.

Yea, I saw an opening and went for it xD

@ Azazel: I have just one thing to say:

Don't you think they would have done a better job on the Shadow Army? They even left the emblem on (!), so saying that in the case of just re-modelling they would have done a better job, is simply not something you can do.

Never meant to add in, I was just pointing out where I got confused, from constant going back and fourth between the Cataclysm and the Cauldron. That is all.

They should have done a better job, but there is so much you can do before you say "screw it, lets make it easier on us, I'm sick of working on this game."

There are some things in the game ANet puts lots of effort into, like the differences in Temple Guardian/Roaring Ether/Charr Hunter Beasts, using the same model but makes it so you have to look closely at them to tell the similarities, and there are the things they put little to no effort to, Aatxes/Shadow Army/Skeleton Army.

There is only so much work a group of people can do before being fed up and deciding to take the "easy road" sadly.

i just found something that struck me as interesting. we had all generally accepted that orr territory did not extend up to the tarnished coast, and north kryta province due to wiki sometimes being unreliable, yes? well, the official and unofficial wikis beg to differ, and the latter seems to have some evidence backing its claim

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Glaive <-this page says that lady glaive requested a resting place after her defeat in the 2nd great corsair war from King Zoran of Orr and he gave her crew the shards of orr to stay in(could this also be linking orr to istan?)

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Souls this quest tells us that the waters along tarnished coat were orrian

also, taking into account the fact that in the gates of kryta mission, the bonus is retrieving an orrian text next to an orrian-looking boat-according to Orrian Historian McClain(yes, the ship could have crash landed), and the frequent drops of decayed orr emblems, armor, and collars etc from the skeleton army; orr once controlling the tarnished coast, and parts of kryta could be plausable. also, orr was a penisula and was mainly surrounded by water, sailing would be easier then a long trek through the crystal desert, and with that in mind, the possible 'sea-faring' orrians would probably take a warming to the 'sea-faring' corsairs.

i've edited a map of tyria to show a possible root taken by the orrians, it's a bit scruffy because i only did it in 5 mins. remember on the walk root, they would get back to the coast(for tarnished area) using the same path. there are loads of possible routes, but i just thought that i'd show one and prove that it wouldn't be hard to jump from region to region. also, considering that orr had an army the same size/force of ascalon, and that orr was; what? half ascalons size? it shows that fights would be evenly matched and orr would have a fair chance of winning.



on topic:
if you're going to touch your left ear, would you a. use you left hand
or b. use your right hand + reach around the top of your head. a. would be easier, in the same way, re-using skins is alot easier then creating brand new ones. ANet probably had alot else to do when they created these creatures, and they probably also knew that it would spark discussions like this-'is it this, is it that?'

On the Orrian Armor being in the City, I think this is more the fact that anything that is undead drops orrian armor, and sephis axes, exc. I don't think it is a story element. Same as I think the reason we see the eye symbol all over the place (kryta, UW) is just reusing skins. Most everything in the FoW is a reskin. If the skeleton army is Orrian then the Shadow Army are white mantle, explain that.

No. She just struck a deal with the King. Kind of a "Hey you look away while we just settle in your waters" deal.

You understand that the Undead are actually Orrian (the ones in Kryta at least) which is why they drop Orr emblems ect. And a ship that crash landed on the Southern part of Kryta does not go well with trying to explain a possible reign in the Northen part of Kryta. Infact it seems absurd - Kryta could cut them off very easily. It would be like Kryta trying to establish a settlement in the Eastern Frontier of Ascalon during the Guild Wars.

Now Orr didnt control the Tarnished Coast. It controlled the waters around it and the Shards of Orr.

i was saying that there was lots of evidence of orrians being in kryta, like the ship, which i was saying could have crash landed there explaining how it was a shipwreck. it's more likely though that they sailed into that little crecieve in the middle of the night and began an ambush.

i know that the undead in kryta are/almost definately orrian

how can you control the waters around somewhere and not own at least the coast. if you were in that position, wouldn't the next step be to get the land along the area of sea? also, it never explicitly says that orr controlled just the water. it says that it was orrian territory + says nothing else after that. you saying that they just controlled the water around tarnished coast seems to be plucked out of thin air because you have no evidence to back it up.

There. I've just plucked this out of thin air. As shown on the maps you provided the Tarnished Coast and Orr are pretty much next to each other- so obviously whos waters would they be? the Tarnished Coast doesnt exactly have people to care about them, Kryta are further away than Orr. You know how Kryta has yet to extend into a certain neighbouring region in Tyria? Orr is probably the same.

Now show me your evidence for them controlling the Tarnished Coast. Show me the source that will say they controlled anything past the water. And i dare you to say "Shards of Orr".

Infact:

What does? can you cite a source as to what is saying Orr controlled the Tarnished coast? quest? monument? npc? what have i missed?

That quest is the only reason why the Tarnished Coast part was kept on wiki.

I read through the dialogue *again* and saw nothing of that. The only "control" they would have is the same type of control the Undead Dragon has, constant patrolling ships.

1. The boat probably did crash into the water over there. 2. the frequent drops of Orrian items are due to the Orrian Undead *not Skeleton Army, two different thigns*, which as stated in the mission dialogue, came from Orr.

because they could travel to the area does not mean that they [/I]control the area[/I]. Also, the Orrian army were peaceful *as I forgot earlier, but found in the manuscripts* and wanted peace, they would not, and did not, start a war.


I really cannot tell who's side you are on with this comment with the re-use of skins/models (and if don't have to reach around the top of my head to touch the opposing ear, I more naturally go under my chin).

/agreed with the FoW using mostly reskins *same with UW monsters*. /disagree with that anything undead drops orrian armor *all armor are constant reskins, only trophies should be taken into consideration, and only the Orrian Undead drop Decayed Orr Emblems*

If they sailed there to begin an ambush, why would there be a journal there? And according to Orrian Historian McClain, the ship is old.

If the ship was used as an assault, with the people of Orr being peaceful, it would have to be an assault ship by the Undead *dunno why they would need a ship when they can just walk underwater, shown in D'Alessio Seaboard mission*, and if it was a ship sailed by Undead, it wouldn't be old.

How did Napoleon prevent trade with Britain if he couldn't control parts of Britain land? How did submarines sail along the US and other coasts during WWII without being on land? What you're basically asking is the same thing, but dealing with a game and not actual history. It is possible to control waters by constantly patrolling those waters with multiple ships, and when you spot an enemy, you fire. That simple. When you have ships patrolling a part of a sea, others get intimidated and don't want to cross paths, which creates a blockade, and allows you to control those waters. Also, Free Runner says how it says nothing about owning anymore land then just the Shards of Orr.

It is very possible that the Shards of Orr was used as a refueling dock/storage for patrol ships, but when Glaive needed a refuge, King Zoran stopped the patrols, which would in turn allow Canthan ships to finally come *although news would take time, so if this is the case, that could explain some of the 55 years between the Second Great Corsair War and the Second Treaty of Lion's Arch*.

Show me too please.

okay..."Shards of Orr".

if you control shards of orr then the people residing along the tarnished coast would have pushed them out. but it clearly remained orrian territory for some time. and even if there was a large scale battle down there, it would be too big an event to go unnoticed. so how did they stay down there so long? they controlled the tarnished coast coast or at least the part around it.

you're saying that they only contolled the sea, but where does it explicitly say "they only controlled the sea and not the coast aswell?

answer me that

oh, and i was saying that on the lost souls quest an NPC says that the sea that they sailed into was orrian.

i dunno, perhaps he was the captain or deck scrubber and was writing a journal of all of his 'adventures'

and we can assume that this journal writer is a human which makes your comment about the ship being sailed by undead as invalid because undead are enemies of humans

"Following Lady Glaive's defeat during the Second Great Corsair War, we sailed north aboard Glaive's ship, the Queen of Fools, into Orrian waters along the Tarnished Coast. There was a mutiny, and our souls became forfeit in a vicious cycle of betrayal. We need your help to end the cycle. We need revenge! But first we must be freed...."

that there is the dialogue(with accept/decline options) on the quest. note the part where it says 'into ORRIAN WATERS along the tarnished coast" <---that's my citation

Hey there i would like to introduce you to my previous post.


What people? there was nobody there. Its basicly a huge uncharted area.

Your right it doesnt say they ONLY controlled the sea. But then again it never says they controlled the Tarnished Coast. Oh wait yeah a set of Orrian underground tunnels have an opening on the coast. That must mean they had control of it!

Nobody controlled the Tarnished Coast.Orr had a way to get there but that doesnt mean they had control of it. Its like the Magumma Jungle.

If you can find me a single bit that says they controlled the TC then i will take everything i said back.

As to Azazel's bit about Awata, it has not been confirmed by Anet that it was a Charr while alive, but honestly, do we need confirmation on that? At least we're not trying to make a theory that the Charr ruled from the plains of Ascalon to the Desolation.

Which is nearly as absurd as the link you're trying to make with the Lost Scrolls having been from Fahranur. Honestly..Why can't Fahranur have the Apocrypha and Arah have the Lost Scrolls? Is there something so evil, so undeniably horrible about that that you just cannot even begin to accept the fact, that if you were to do so, it would not drive all your conceptions of reality out the window and break your mind down to the point of insanity?

well, can you give me a citation that says that nobody lived at TC? i'm pretty sure that the mursaat did. i'm pretty sure that they resided in rata sum which is an anagram for mursaat. i'm pretty sure that ullen river has a dark shroud which covers the mursaat controlled city of rata sum.

ok. i've looked in the web. and no where does it explicitly say that the orrians did control tarnished coast, but why would they say that? after all, they fun isn't in the kill, it's in the chase. but there are a number of reasons as to why the orrians would want to control TC. the 2nd great corsair war ended around the time that the guild wars started. before the guild wars started, i think it's pretty clear that orr could see it coming. kryta + ascalon had already started fueding, orr stayed neutral and only intervened when the fight went to them. if orr controlled TC they could have taken the fight to kryta. kryta would be trapped-ascalon in the east, orr, south/west depending on the time and how far north the orrians had travelled.

I was hoping I could go on a rant about the first paragraph. Too bad Free Runner beat me.

Same thing Free Runner said. If it is not stated they did control the land, as far as we can prove as fact, they didn't.

The NPC only talks about the water, not the land, and it was the land you talked about.

He was a Historian, not a Captain, not a Scrubber, and the historian would not risk himself to join an assault and risk almost certain death.

the undead were one humans, and that bit was a bit of sarcasm, as it is proven in the Seabed mission, as I stated, that they walked to shore from underwater.

This proves nothing on your point. Both me and Free Runner have CONSTANTLY said that Orr only controlled the waters, that citation only helps us and not you.

Didn't think it was confirmed, but I also had a feeling it was, thank you for clearing it up. And the Charr would have been unable to rule down to the Desolation, as it was formed during the Exodus of the Gods, which was long after the humans pushed the Charr north, and before that it is stated that the Charr only ruled to the boarder of the Crystal Desert. Nice speculation joke though.

This I lol'd at long and hard.

Edit: The location of the Mursaat's home is unknown, only mentioned to be somewhere in the Maguuma Jungle *note: The Tarnished Coast is part of the Maguuma Jungle*. About the Ullen River and Rata Sum. They are too far apart to be linked, I think the main Mursaat City was not Rata Sum, and is currently still unknown. Also, notice that Free Runner has stated, which is fact, that the Asura found those cities, and they were all empty when they got there. The only possible inhabitants would be the Mursaat. But seeing how they were not that close to the Shards of Orr *closest is the now Vlox's Falls* and they just wanted to be ignored, I think the Mursaat would just let their supposed cloaking device do the work of keeping them hidden.

Another possibility is that they didn't go to push them out, but whenever the Orrians attempted to explore, the Mursaat killed them *maybe captured for Bloodstone use*, which caused the Orrians to not want to explore anymore, which would have left the Mursaat contempt because they would not be dealt with. Those two are just possibilities that counters the speculation of Orr controlling the Tarnished Coast.

They would not need the Tarnished Coast in order to sail to Kryta, it is a short enough distance. And as stated above, I just gave a possible reason why the Orrians couldn't explore the Tarnished Coast, therefore preventing them from controlling it.

Aren't the countless Krait, Quetzal, Hylek, Dinosaurs, and Arachnids enough to keep any normal human away?

That, my friend, would be another reason. I was just feeding natmarie's want to include Mursaat. Playing along in other words. I would much rather go along with those monsters being enough.

-Random thought, and I am hoping for Free Runner/Gmr Leon to pulverize this-
Seeing how the Asura said that those towns were already there when they got there, IF *and a big IF* Orr really did control parts of the Tarnish Coast, would it be possible that those structures where Orrian and not Mursaat. Seeing how they don't really fit the Mursaat structure. The structures are magical and seem to fit with the idea of a "city of the gods" look, so it would be possible if they just copied the buildings.

Along with that, the Quetzal have somewhat similar clothing compared to the Orrians *at least like the Vizier*. Possible they were once friendly OR that they stole the look from Orrians. *The later is possible with Orr just controlling Shards of Orr*

Like I said a random thought.

We don't have any Orrian architecture or examples of architecture to compare the structures along the Tarnished Coast with. Also, and this pretty much does rip through that idea, is the fact that similar architecture is found in the Justiciar Thommis branch of Slavers' Exile.

While I haven't done many dungeons, I don't think we see that architecture to such a lengthy extent as seen in that branch of Slavers'. Even then, the only comparable architecture is very little and consists of the gates found in the catacombs traveled through to get to Boreal Station and in the Bloodstone Caves.

Mmk. I was hoping for someone to shred that thought up. I'll keep it as a tiny possibility, as tiny as the link between the undead in Fahranur and the Orrian undead.

this isn't a discussion, this is an attack!

still, though, ZOMG ZOMG azazeal have you even played prohecies??? to get to riverside province you have to talk to old man joness, who says that ullen river is called dark river, not just cause it's dark, but also cause a shadow is cast over it by 'something...unseen'. this is in kryta, ruled by the white mantle, he white mantle worship the unseen aka the mursaat and the shroud is in the direction of rata sum-at that point supposedly home to the mursaat. did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, that shadow/shroud was there.

i never said that they didn't control the waters, i said that they could have controlled the waters + tc. so your previous comment about my quotation not proving my point is invalid, and it wassn't even put there to prove a point, i put it there because you said that you couldn't see it. don't know why...

also, why wouldn't a historian go with soldiers etc on an assault, they'd be there to record events so that the people in orr would know what was happening and the events would go into history books

It's an intelligence attack!

I think the general fact that there are a bunch of similar wrecked ships in Scoundrel's Rise kind of defeats your point about it being an attack. If anything I could see it as just being a peaceful trip to Kryta by Thaddeus LaMount that was waylaid by a storm. The other ships in Scoundrel's Rise though...Those are fairly inexplicable..I've yet to see a solid theory on what on Tyria they're doing there.

Plus Az, the Dark River, also known as the Ullen, seems to connect with the river in Riven Earth. That is, before you explore the map, they're connected. Unless I'm mistaken..And I might be, I'll have to do a check.

Whether or not there's a Mursaat city there or in that area around the Ullen River we cannot explore has been speculated, but there's nothing that can support it. So it's really just a hypothesis.